View Full Version : Carrying a DA/SA in SA mode?
What's wrong with this? I have a HK P30 V3 and have been wondering out of curiousity, what the difference is between this and a striker fired design? They both have safeties in place and both have a 5-6lb trigger pull. So, why is it treated so differently than walking around with a fully cocked M&P?I dont plan on doing this, but for someone who can't get over the transition, this could be an option.
no safety?
there may be some concerns about the hammer being bumped and striking the firing pin, though i really doubt that's an issue on a modern HK.
i think the standard answer is that the trigger pull has less takeup and is lighter, and therefore less safe than a striker gun wtih a long take up for example.
what's the takeup like on that gun?
you may want to consider LEM.
Suwannee Tim
09-06-10, 20:50
This question has occurred to me. To rephrase the question, "How is it that Glock is safe to carry but a DA/SA SIG or H&K cocked is not?" My conclusion is that a Glock is not safe to carry. Lots of folks will dispute that but having thought about it for years I keep coming to the same conclusion. That conclusion is that it is too easy to make a Glock go bang. That is the main reason I don't own a Glock or any of the Glock copies such as the Smith and Wesson M&P. I would carry a DAO before I would carry a Glock.
Takeup is about the same as a Glock or M&P. The poundage is about the same. The trigger has to be pulled or the hammer will just come down and hit as if you were decocking it, never even reaching the firing pin. I have thought about the LEM, but am fine with the DA pull. Especially in a high adrenaline situation. It makes the DA seem much lighter.
An Undocumented Worker
09-06-10, 21:58
Thats the same reason I carry my CZ's in double action mode. The first shot, the one that counts requires a concerted effort on my part to make it go bang, less possibility for an oops my finger slipped, and the wrong person was shot.
Psychological/emotional reasons mostly...
Thats the same reason I carry my CZ's in double action mode. The first shot, the one that counts requires a concerted effort on my part to make it go bang, less possibility for an oops my finger slipped, and the wrong person was shot.
I feel the same way. Most people say "don't put your finger on the trigger till your ready to shoot". When the SHTF it's a totally different ballgame, and every situation is different. In such situations it could be very easy for an oops, then your sitting in a courtroom trying to defend yourself. Not a good thing.Some people train enough to be prepared for such situations, but I feel that most of the public doesn't.
This question has occurred to me. To rephrase the question, "How is it that Glock is safe to carry but a DA/SA SIG or H&K cocked is not?" My conclusion is that a Glock is not safe to carry. Lots of folks will dispute that but having thought about it for years I keep coming to the same conclusion. That conclusion is that it is too easy to make a Glock go bang. That is the main reason I don't own a Glock or any of the Glock copies such as the Smith and Wesson M&P. I would carry a DAO before I would carry a Glock.
I used to think the same way until I realized that I can have a glock or M&P with a heavier trigger pull. Otherwise I was interested in SA/DA pistols for the concept of carrying a decocked pistol without applying the safety.
TheSmiter1
09-06-10, 22:29
I was wondering this, too. For instance, why not holster a DA/SA P30, and then cock it and carry it in SA? Wouldn't you be able to decock it before drawing, due to the location of the decocker? I have no idea, though. I have very little experience with DA/SA pistols.
I eagerly await the input of an expert.
I feel the same way. Most people say "don't put your finger on the trigger till your ready to shoot". When the SHTF it's a totally different ballgame, and every situation is different. In such situations it could be very easy for an oops, then your sitting in a courtroom trying to defend yourself. Not a good thing.Some people train enough to be prepared for such situations, but I feel that most of the public doesn't.
it's kind of a double edged sword. if you forget to shut the safety off on a manual safety pistol, you might get killed. if you freak and ignore trigger discipline you might light a ND into yourself or an innocent person.
the bottom line is train and stay alert. easier said then done, but what else can we do?
John_Wayne777
09-07-10, 06:43
What's wrong with this? I have a HK P30 V3 and have been wondering out of curiousity, what the difference is between this and a striker fired design?
The length of the trigger pull, the absence of a safety mechanism in the trigger itself, etc. Typically single-action trigger pulls on DA/SA guns require very little trigger movement which means that you have very little warning that the gun is about to go boom whether you're having a blonde moment on the trigger or you're reholstering the weapon.
They both have safeties in place and both have a 5-6lb trigger pull.
They both generally have a firing pin safety in place. The DA/SA gun does not, however, have the trigger button or the same length of trigger pull. IIRC the FBI did a study some time ago and found that the length of the trigger's pull (how far you have to move the trigger to make the weapon go boom) had a dramatic impact on the likelihood of an ND with the weapon. The longer the pull, the less the chances are of something bad happening. Weapons like the Glock and M&P (sans safety) tend to be on the razor's edge when it comes to gun handling...carrying a DA/SA gun cocked with no safety to engage pushes it past that edge into running-with-scissors territory.
I dont plan on doing this, but for someone who can't get over the transition, this could be an option.
Please note that there isn't a single firearms trainer of any reputation anywhere that teaches carrying a DA\SA gun cocked. No manufacturer lists that mode of carry as advisable in any of their manuals.
These would be great big giant hand-of-god warning signs about the advisability of that practice.
Someone who finds themselves unable to deal with the DA/SA transition needs to either train more or get another gun.
Alpha Sierra
09-07-10, 07:10
This question has occurred to me. To rephrase the question, "How is it that Glock is safe to carry but a DA/SA SIG or H&K cocked is not?" My conclusion is that a Glock is not safe to carry.
Must be a lonely place there.......
Very simple:
Glocks and M&P's are not fully cocked, until the user accomplishes that via pulling the trigger. This is considered a "safe action," because the striker isn't ready for ignition until a trigger pull is executed. The trigger mounted safety mechanism on such a pistol is basically a drop safety.
If you have a DA/SA pistol with a thumb safety, instead of a decocker, then using that thumb safety for cocked-and-locked carry is probably the best and safest thing to do. If you have a DA/SA pistol with a decocker, then you use the decocker.
The length of the trigger pull, the absence of a safety mechanism in the trigger itself, etc. Typically single-action trigger pulls on DA/SA guns require very little trigger movement which means that you have very little warning that the gun is about to go boom whether you're having a blonde moment on the trigger or you're reholstering the weapon. . While I agree with you on this, and I haven't had any formal handgun training, I though they always taught that your finger wasn't to even be in the trigger guard until target was identified, along with don't point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy. With these two rules, I don't see why the trigger safety, or trigger movement really matters. This is why I asked this question in the first place. I just can't see that the manual of arms is that much different than a striker fired weapon. These blonde moments have happened plenty of times with Glocks, and while the trigger stroke may be longer on them I don't see how it is any safer.I'm really not trying to argue here, just trying to let you know why I even asked the question.
Please note that there isn't a single firearms trainer of any reputation anywhere that teaches carrying a DA\SA gun cocked. No manufacturer lists that mode of carry as advisable in any of their manuals.
These would be great big giant hand-of-god warning signs about the advisability of that practice.
Someone who finds themselves unable to deal with the DA/SA transition needs to either train more or get another gun.
I totally agree. I meant to make that a question instead of a statement.
Very simple:
Glocks and M&P's are not fully cocked, until the user accomplishes that via pulling the trigger. This is considered a "safe action," because the striker isn't ready for ignition until a trigger pull is executed. The trigger mounted safety mechanism on such a pistol is basically a drop safety..
From what I understand the M&P is a fully cocked design, much like the XD.
I've been looking at adding a P30 to my arsenal. It is very similar to my previous Sig P229 - both SA/DA, with decocker and NO SAFETY.
I would not advise carrying a SA/DA in cocked mode, as noted earlier, there is a lighter trigger pull at this stage. While there is take up, the SA is much more sensitive than the full DA pull of a Glock.
If you're interested in locked and cocked carry, I highly suggest looking into 1911's.
I've been looking at adding a P30 to my arsenal. It is very similar to my previous Sig P229 - both SA/DA, with decocker and NO SAFETY.
I would not advise carrying a SA/DA in cocked mode, as noted earlier, there is a lighter trigger pull at this stage. While there is take up, the SA is much more sensitive than the full DA pull of a Glock.
If you're interested in locked and cocked carry, I highly suggest looking into 1911's.
I would highly recommend it. It is a wonderful platform. I prefer the stiffer trigger pull of the DA/SA, and prefer not having a safety on my handguns. I understand the longer takeup now. I agree with only carrying decocked, but just wanted to understand the mechanics.
From what I understand the M&P is a fully cocked design, much like the XD.
OK, well then please pardon me if it's my mistake. It was my impression that the striker was merely "mostly cocked" by the travel of the slide, and that the trigger pull caused additional rearward travel of the striker before its release, via a camming action of the sear.
OK, well then please pardon me if it's my mistake. It was my impression that the striker was merely "mostly cocked" by the travel of the slide, and that the trigger pull caused additional rearward travel of the striker before its release, via a camming action of the sear.
I believe you are correct in your description of the trigger mech. I am just going off of what I have been told. Everyone made a big deal when the m&p first came out that it was 98% cocked and how it was in the same class as Glock's(comp shooting) and the XD wasn't. I dunno. Doesn't matter.:cool:
Must be a lonely place there.......
Alpha, That was funny
John_Wayne777
09-08-10, 07:59
While I agree with you on this, and I haven't had any formal handgun training, I though they always taught that your finger wasn't to even be in the trigger guard until target was identified, along with don't point your gun at anything you don't want to destroy.
Yes, those are the two cardinal safety rules.
...but you have to understand that in real life, in real high-stress situations, there are human factors to consider. There are phenomena known as startle response and sympathetic nervous response that can occur in every human being walking the planet no matter how well trained they happen to be. In real life people get startled, run into things, and fall down. These can all be very bad if they happen to have a gun in their hand. Even finger off trigger is not a guarantee that someone who clenches their hand in a sympathetic nervous response won't end up with their finger going into the trigger guard. This is one reason why a number of instructors stress the "register position" rather than just finger-on-the-frame, as it makes that possibility somewhat less likely. Hooking the last segment of your finger in the ejection port of the pistol is even better if you have physical dimensions that allow for it.
With these two rules, I don't see why the trigger safety, or trigger movement really matters.
Trigger movement matters because the longer the arc of the trigger's movement, the more it allows for the sensation of actually pulling the trigger to register with the brain. I have a Ruger MK-II, for example, that is an excellent target pistol. (Good for squirrels, too) I've used it to literally shoot the primer of a 20 gauge shotgun shell from about 10 yards. It's so easy to shoot primarily because it has a phenomenal trigger...one that breaks at under 4 pounds, with barely ANY perceivable trigger movement. There's a tiny bit of takeup and then a crisp, clean break. The entire arc of the trigger's movement once you're actually impacting the sear can't be more than 1/8 of an inch. Even when I'm concentrating on trigger pull, I can barely feel the trigger moving, which means I get a surprise break almost every time and that helps with maximum accuracy.
While that may be great on a target gun, I would never want that kind of trigger on a weapon meant to be used in high stress situations because...I can barely feel the trigger moving. That means I have almost no tactile feedback warning that a loud noise is in the immediate future that might be sufficient to make my reptile brain (your amygdala is what handles high-stress life or death events) figure out that I do not want the loud noise, and therefore I better knock that shit off.
Even if I'm not in a high stress environment, the lack of tactile feedback that the trigger is heading rearward can be a problem. Example: At a low light course in the recent past I was attempting to reholster my S&W M&P in the dark. As I was reholstering, I noticed that something didn't feel just right. I stopped and checked things out, finding that the lanyard for my flashlight had worked its way into the trigger guard of my pistol somehow...and that as I was reholstering the weapon it was pulling the trigger. Now had I attempted to reholster my Beretta 92 while it was still cocked (or my Sig, or my S&W 5906, etc) the travel of the trigger would have been so short that I probably wouldn't have noticed something was wrong until I heard the loud noise.
As I said earlier, there have been actual studies done on this. More trigger movement equals more opportunity for the person handling the gun to realize that the weapon is going to fire. This is not to say that a long, heavy trigger is a guarantee, as there's a video out there of I believe a deputy out in Las Vegas who nearly shoots a suspect and a fellow officer when she has a startle response on a double-action 92FS. Still, what it does offer is a greater margin of error that in and of itself means that the chances of an accident are reduced.
These blonde moments have happened plenty of times with Glocks,
Yes, they do...and as I said earlier, weapons like Glocks are the razor's edge when it comes to gun handling. They are not very forgiving if you screw up or if you are screwed by your equipment. A cocked DA/SA pistol that doesn't have the ability to engage a safety on a cocked hammer is beyond the razor's edge. In other words, weapons like the Glock provide a very scant margin of error for the person handling the firearm, as is shown by the number of unintentional discharges that have occurred with them. A cocked DA/SA gun provides even less margin for error...and that's why manufacturers put warnings about reholstering/carrying a cocked DA/SA gun in big bold red letters in manuals, and why instructors who have lots of experience tell you that it's unsafe. In the real world where real people handle real guns with real consequences, having little or no margin for error means that people will get injured or killed.
Every tiny bit of trigger movement that it takes to get the trigger from a resting position to actually tripping the sear/releasing the striker is an extra opportunity for the person handling the firearm to realize that a shot is about to be fired...and that translates into fewer accidents.
This makes an excellent case for decockers and thumb safeties.
The length of the trigger pull, the absence of a safety mechanism in the trigger itself, etc. Typically single-action trigger pulls on DA/SA guns require very little trigger movement which means that you have very little warning that the gun is about to go boom whether you're having a blonde moment on the trigger or you're reholstering the weapon.
This is your answer. Has nothing to do with the hammer sitting back and everything to do with the amount of force required to fire the weapon.
Thanks alot JW777! Your post are always most informative. I have one last question. If I leave my HK P30 or any other DA/SA in my nightstand unchambered, and hear something during the night, load it, what do I do next? Do I decock it so that the trigger isn't to short of a pull or do I just leave it in S/A? I ask this because I always leave it in S/A, but now that we have had this discussion, it makes me think I should decock it.
Thanks alot JW777! Your post are always most informative. I have one last question. If I leave my HK P30 or any other DA/SA in my nightstand unchambered, and hear something during the night, load it, what do I do next? Do I decock it so that the trigger isn't to short of a pull or do I just leave it in S/A? I ask this because I always leave it in S/A, but now that we have had this discussion, it makes me think I should decock it.
If you're immediately going into action, then I wouldn't decock.
If you're going to be sweeping your house, opening doors and the like, I'd decock.
I'd also recommend getting some high quality training with your P30, it will help go a long way towards answering questions like this.
I routinely carry either an older all Kraut stamped slide SIG P226 or a Wilson CQB 1911.
In all the training I've done where I'm clearing a house or there is a lull in the "action", I would either decock the SIG or engage the safety on the 1911.
Muzzle awareness and where your finger is in relation to the trigger are also of paramount importance.
John_Wayne777
09-08-10, 20:46
Thanks alot JW777! Your post are always most informative. I have one last question. If I leave my HK P30 or any other DA/SA in my nightstand unchambered,
I'd leave the weapon chambered, hammer down unless you're dealing with small kids or something.
If you know you need the gun...meaning there's a dude you need to point a gun at/shoot, like, now...then you do whatever is fastest. If you're investigating a bump in the night, decock.
Alpha Sierra
09-08-10, 21:18
If I leave my HK P30 or any other DA/SA in my nightstand unchambered,
Why??
Why??
I have a 14 month old daughter.
Alpha Sierra
09-09-10, 04:05
I did too, and I just kept the pistol out of her physical reach until she was old enough to understand not to touch it.
She's now eight and I have no concern that she will touch a firearm unless I am there to give her permission.
But you must do what you are comfortable with. I am just offering a different way that worked for me.
I did too, and I just kept the pistol out of her physical reach until she was old enough to understand not to touch it.
She's now eight and I have no concern that she will touch a firearm unless I am there to give her permission.
But you must do what you are comfortable with. I am just offering a different way that worked for me.
We do a little of both at my house, because we have a toddler.
My Glock has one in the chamber in my CCW holster on top of the gun safe on my side of the bed. Mrs J's Glock is loaded, but not chambered, on her night stand (she puts it in the drawer during the day).
Jay
Suwannee Tim
09-09-10, 14:54
Must be a lonely place there.......
My opinion that Glocks are not sufficiently safe is a minority opinion. I have never been a fan of Glocks though I am not chauvinistic about it.
Yes, they do...and as I said earlier, weapons like Glocks are the razor's edge when it comes to gun handling. They are not very forgiving if you screw up or if you are screwed by your equipment........Glock provide a very scant margin of error for the person handling the firearm, as is shown by the number of unintentional discharges that have occurred with them.
Others do agree though. I am a revolver guy and have been since I was a youngun. Only recently have I tinkered with hi-cap pistols. I feel absolutely comfortable with six 357s in a wheelgun. I'm not going to be engaging a squad of Taliban, Zetas or zombies. I'd rather have a Model 19 than a Glock. I have personal knowledge of more accidental discharges than armed confrontations. I am more concerned about accidentally shooting someone than loosing a gunfight because I run out of ammo.
I got to participate in my first felony traffic stop a couple of weeks ago, and I was the "felon". There was a report of a vehicle stolen and my ride matched the description. When five carloads of cops are on your bumper you know it ain't a traffic stop. I was highly cooperative and very, very glad these officers didn't point their Glocks at me.
For a century now well trained gunfighters have known not to cock a double action revolver in a gunfight or confrontation. The Glock is analogous in my mind to a double action revolver that you can't uncock. It makes me cringe to think about it. On the one hand you have the wisdom of the ages. On the other hand you have Gaston Glock.
With my SIGs and my FNs, DA/SA pistols, I train to immediately decock after I stop shooting. I point it in a safe direction and decock.
Alpha Sierra
09-09-10, 15:15
I am more concerned about accidentally shooting someone than loosing a gunfight because I run out of ammo.
There is no nice way to say this so here goes. This is an issue of competence and professionalism.
In one of my jobs with the .nav I was part of a nuclear aircraft carriers's reactor operating crew. Some pretty dangerous shit if misused or operated carelessly. And you know what? We never said, hmmm, we better not go critical today because we might melt the core down. We did what we had to do, bolstered by training and professionalism, and we didn't f up.
Suwannee Tim
09-09-10, 15:38
There is no nice way to say this so here goes. This is an issue of competence and professionalism.
In one of my jobs with the .nav I was part of a nuclear aircraft carriers's reactor operating crew. Some pretty dangerous shit if misused or operated carelessly. And you know what? We never said, hmmm, we better not go critical today because we might melt the core down. We did what we had to do, bolstered by training and professionalism, and we didn't f up.
You have completely lost me. The analogy between operating a nuclear reactor and shooting a handgun is one of the poorest analogies I have ever seen.
I fail to see how my remarks might be construed as my lack of competence. I'm trying to remember the last time someone questioned my competence with a firearm and and I cannot. Must have been at least 35 years ago.:D At least you have given me something funny to tell my wife this afternoon.:D:D
At least daily I am three mistakes and a split second from accidentally killing someone. I have never been in a gunfight and am very optimistic that I never will. I think my priorities are wise.
Suwannee Tim, you have an unneccessary fear.
You do realize that modern striker fired semi autos have firing pin blocks right?
There's no way for the cocked firing pin to drop onto the primer unless the trigger is pulled, and the block is lifted before the striker is released.
I'm pretty sure Glocks have firing pin blocks. Hell, my Taurus OSS even has it. It just isn't possible for a round to be fired without the trigger being pulled, therefore lifting the block out of the way.
If the weight of the trigger is a concern, there are options for a glock. 8lb connector, NY1 and NY2 trigger springs, etc.
Suwannee Tim
09-09-10, 15:55
Suwannee Tim, you have an unneccessary fear.
I don't think fear of an AD is unnecessary, I think it is very healty. I have a buddy who killed a man with an AD. The experience of accidentally killing someone is horrendous. Take it from me, I learned it from him. I have seen an uncountable number of firearms handling mistakes over the years. I have seen blood on the firing line where someone shot their self. I have seen gruesome wounds. My daughter's friend's husband shot himself in the left hand with a Glock two months ago. He hasn't worked since. I have shot Glocks but a few times and I have always been amazed at how little effort it takes to make them go "bang". Not enough effort. I was vaguely aware that they can be modified to increase the effort. I have no interest in buying a firearm that has to be modified to make it safe.
I am one of the safest shooters I know and I fear an AD. And I will continue to fear an AD. You should too.
And I will continue to fear an AD. You should too.
I do fear it. That's why I wanted an SA/DA pistol because I would feel more comfortable if I had a heavy decocked trigger pull if I'm going to carry a handgun with the safety off.
Then I found out I could do the same with a Glock. (I'm not sure if I can do that with an M&P......)
Alpha Sierra
09-09-10, 16:21
I am one of the safest shooters I know and I fear an AD. And I will continue to fear an AD. You should too.
The fact that you consider all these negligent discharges "accidental" says volumes.
The point I made, very appropriately, is that well trained operators are well capable of operating exceedingly dangerous machinery (nuclear reactors and apparently Glocks too) without damaging anything or killing anyone.
A Glock will not fire until the trigger is pressed back enough to finish cocking it then releasing the striker.
I think you got used to riding the trigger on revolvers and are now scared of a pistol that will not let you get away with such an unsafe habit. I've shot revolvers long enough to know how forgiving they can be of people who break the rules.
Alpha Sierra
09-09-10, 16:25
At least daily I am three mistakes and a split second from accidentally killing someone.
http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.110984283.jpg
Suwannee Tim
09-09-10, 16:25
I regard myself as a half decent pistolero, an accomplishment made far easier by the fact that I stand on the shoulders of giants. Men such as Phil Sharpe, Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan. Before I was born a consensus was formed at to the proper weight of a combat trigger. This consensus was overthrown by Gaston Glock. I'm going to hold with the old wisdom.
variablebinary
09-09-10, 16:26
Carrying a DA/SA pistol in SA mode is probably something you can get away with 90% of the time.
You look at a SIG 226 for example. It's not firing without pulling the trigger, so as long as you 100% perfect with trigger discipline 100% of the time under all conditions, you got nothing to worry about.
The crux is you won't be 100% perfect 100% of the time, under all conditions, and in SA mode your margin of error is hair thin
Alpha Sierra
09-09-10, 16:27
The Glock is analogous in my mind to a double action revolver that you can't uncock.
You truly do not understand what you are talking about
Suwannee Tim
09-09-10, 16:32
...exceedingly dangerous machinery (nuclear reactors....
Funny, I've always heard and read that Naval reactors are very safe. After all, officer's careers are made or broken on the ORSE.
The fact that you consider all these negligent discharges "accidental" says volumes.
I think you are splitting semantic hairs. I will call them "negligent discharges" if that suits you better.
I think you got used to riding the trigger on revolvers and are now scared of a pistol that will not let you get away with such an unsafe habit.
I think you are reading way too much into what I am writing. For one thing I do not have unsafe habits. For another I am not "scared" of a Glock.
You truly do not understand what you are talking about
This is just a personal insult. When the insults start, I take my leave. Au revoir all!
John_Wayne777
09-10-10, 07:10
I regard myself as a half decent pistolero, an accomplishment made far easier by the fact that I stand on the shoulders of giants. Men such as Phil Sharpe, Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan. Before I was born a consensus was formed at to the proper weight of a combat trigger. This consensus was overthrown by Gaston Glock. I'm going to hold with the old wisdom.
The Glock changed a lot of things, including the definition of "safe". I remember a time when 1911's were not "safe" because they had a cocked hammer and the trigger was too light. Along comes the Glock with no external safeties and a trigger that was in the same weight range as a 1911's trigger and concepts of "safe" changed.
There are literally millions of people out there packing a striker-fired pistol with a ~ 5.5 pound short travel trigger on a daily basis. The number of them who shoot themselves or someone else with those weapons each day (by accident, anyway) is extremely small. One's assessment of tolerable risk for their personal lives is always going to rest entirely with the individual...but looking at things with the wide angle lens it's difficult to argue that Glocks are "unsafe".
Unforgiving, yes...but not unsafe. Glocks and similar designs are indeed less tolerant of stupidity than other weapons with longer and heavier trigger pulls...but as I mentioned earlier, even those weapons are not a guarantee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
Note that this unintentional discharge happened with a Beretta 92FS with the trigger in double-action mode.
I don't understand how a Glock or M&P, chambered can be considered unsafe. Back in 92 I went to the Glock Armorers School in Smyrna GA. During the class one of the demonstrations given was an instructor loading and chambering a Glock 17 with a blank round. He went into the other room that had a big bulletpoof window and preceded to throw the Glock all around the room, up against the walls and floors. Weapon did not discharge at all. These were all out full strenght throws. After that demonstration I never doubted that the weapon was not safe and there was no need for a traditonal safety.
AD's or ND's whatever you want to call them are mostly operator error when it comes to these types of weapons. Agreed though that carrying a DA/SA weapon cocked is way over the razors edge!!
As far as having my M&P 45 with a chambered round either carrying or in the house, no worries at all. I have 2 kids, 10 and 12, and they have shot all of my handguns and have been thoroughly instructed on the dangers of handling weapons I do not worry about having a loaded handgun in the house. When I got my M&P I showed and explained all about the weapon to my kids. One thing I was really worried about with it was that I had mounted a weapon light to it. I didn't want my kids messing with it because of the light. My daughters response was "Why would I play with it because of the flash light Daddy, it's a handgun not a toy". Education is the key. That goes for all of us.
The only safety that matters is the one in between your ears. There is no amount of levers, switches, buttons or pounds in a trigger pull that will make a firearm "safe." If you want to have a negligent discharge nothing will stop you.
The only safety that matters is the one in between your ears. There is no amount of levers, switches, buttons or pounds in a trigger pull that will make a firearm "safe."
This * 1,000.
I do agree that carrying a DA/SA with the hammer cocked is a bad idea, but that doesn't mean you should treat it any differently with the hammer down. As a person who carries daily and shoots several thousand rounds of ammunition yearly, my biggest enemy is complacency. This gun is loaded; I will not point it at something I do not wish to destroy; I will keep my finger off its trigger until I am ready to fire.
My daughter's friend's husband shot himself in the left hand with a Glock two months ago. He hasn't worked since.
I am just wondering what was his hand doing in front of the muzzle of his gun when it was loaded?
It is those that do mistakes like that, that always blame the platform.
It takes a lot of proper training to be able to be proficient with a firearm, you need to be very proficient with your MANIPULATIONS, MARKSMANSHIP most important MINDSET.
I have seen a lot of ND's with all platforms, It is not the weapon it is the proficiency of the operator.
Suwannee Tim
09-10-10, 22:04
I am just wondering what was his hand doing in front of the muzzle of his gun when it was loaded?
He obviously screwed up by putting a piece of himself in front of the muzzle and his booger hook on the bang switch, two major mistakes. I doubt he would have shot himself with a Kahr or a revolver though.
If we were all highly trained and highly disciplined to follow that training there would be no firearms accidents or very few. The fact is that people are less than well trained, less than well disciplined, less than competent. They get tired, scared, confused, angry and even drunk and they have accidents.
There is no amount of levers, switches, buttons or pounds in a trigger pull that will make a firearm "safe.
Agreed.
The only safety that matters is the one in between your ears.
I disagree. The design of the firearm matters.
I feel very comfortable with the amount of energy input needed to make a double action revolver or Kahr go bang. I think Glock has reduced this energy to an unnecessarily low level.
I have never questioned Glock's safety when dropped, thrown around the room, packed with mud or submerged and fired or any of the other stuff people do to them.
I respect that, and my statement was made under the assumption that the weapon's design was inherently safe. The point being it isn't the gun that is "safe" it is how you handle it.
"Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands."
Jeff Cooper
(just found this on google)
He obviously screwed up by putting a piece of himself in front of the muzzle and his booger hook on the bang switch, two major mistakes. I doubt he would have shot himself with a Kahr or a revolver though.
If we were all highly trained and highly disciplined to follow that training there would be no firearms accidents or very few. The fact is that people are less than well trained, less than well disciplined, less than competent. They get tired, scared, confused, angry and even drunk and they have accidents.
Agreed.
I disagree. The design of the firearm matters.
I feel very comfortable with the amount of energy input needed to make a double action revolver or Kahr go bang. I think Glock has reduced this energy to an unnecessarily low level.
I have never questioned Glock's safety when dropped, thrown around the room, packed with mud or submerged and fired or any of the other stuff people do to them.
OK TIM.
IF WE ARE GOING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR MISTAKES WHILE HANDLING A FIREARM, THEN THIS NEEDS TO BE IN A DIFFERENT FORUM.
I own a Kahr K9 and love the gun, I also own a revolver and for me they are all tools. if you don't know to use a tool maybe you shouldn't have one, if you make a mistake with a hammer you might brake a finger or loose a nail. if you make a mistake with a firearm you can seriously harm your self, or even worst someone else.
The only reason i said anything is because i am tired of people blaming equipment for their flaws and mistakes. you cant fix stupid, handling a weapon while consuming alcohol is stupid!!!
I have trusted my life to my GLOCK both as a CCW and in Combat.
Suwannee Tim
09-11-10, 05:53
IF WE ARE GOING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR MISTAKES WHILE HANDLING A FIREARM.....
Please quote me where I made an excuse for poor gun handling so I can find the remark and retract it.
....I am tired of people blaming equipment for their flaws and mistakes.
Gunhandling mistakes are always the fault of the shooter. Nevertheless, we all have flaws and make mistakes, and some folks have lots of flaws and make big mistakes. My friend Rick who shot himself for example. The equipment can be designed to be more forgiving of mistakes. Revolvers and Kahrs are examples. Others have conceded in this thread that Glocks are less forgiving of errors. I hold that that it need not be so. If I ever used a Glock I would want a heavy trigger. Except for a sniper rifle, you do not need a light trigger on a combat arm.
Here is my argument in two sentences:
I feel very comfortable with the amount of energy input needed to make a double action revolver or Kahr go bang. I think Glock has reduced this energy to an unnecessarily low level.
I have not seen any assertions that what I regard as a safe amount of energy (revolver or Kahr) is too much and would impede effectiveness. If I see such an argument I would cite experts like Bill Jordan, Jack Weaver or Jerry Miculek who mastered the revolver to an amazing degree.
titsonritz
09-11-10, 08:03
Carrying a SA/DA pistol (such as traditional S&W, Sig, Ruger P-series and the mentioned HK P30, etc.) cocked is very dangerous and should never be attempted. The only SA/DA pistols that can safely be carrying with the hammer cocked must also have a manual safety to lock the hammer such as those found on the CZ-75 and clones, Taurus DA, Daewoo, etc. There is no similarity what so ever to a SA/DA with the hammer cocked and modern striker fired pistols such as Glock, Kahr, S&W M&P, XD, etc. Apple and Oranges.
As to statements that Glocks, or any other modern pistol for the matter, are unsafe (or even less safe) compared the other designs due to a light trigger pull or lack of manual safety is both ridiculous and inaccurate. The overwhelming majority of NDs are due to operator error pure and simple, a combination of such factors as ignorance of weapon, lack of proper training and poor handling technique. A person blowing holes in themselves is not a fault of the weapon but that of the user. If the four cardinal firearm safety rules are adhered to at all times, there will never be an issue, even in the unlikely event of a legitimate mechanical malfunction or failure is the actual cause an ND:
1. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you have made the decision to shoot.
2. Never allow the muzzle to cross anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded at all times.
4. Be sure of your target and what beyond it, beside it and in front of it.
The crux is you won't be 100% perfect 100% of the time, under all conditions, and in SA mode your margin of error is hair thin
Correct. And in defense of our friend Tim, this logic could also be applied to the striker fired weapon, but to a somewhat lesser extent. However I don't agree with his first comment of the thread, either.
The less the margin for error, the less the margin for error. Is this idiocy to consider? Are some of here so outstanding at what they do they are are now and will forever be error free under any circumstance, even if they have been in a similar circumstance before? How about the majority of us?
He chooses to minimize his margin, doesn't sound like a crime has been committed. As JW777 said recently, it wasn't too long ago when the idea of a carrying a cocked (striker fired) pistol without a safety/decocker was ludicrous to most shooters. It evolved into the mainstream, but the platform still has risk associated if you are not completely focused.
"If I see such an argument I would cite experts like Bill Jordan...."
I would not cite Bill Jordan as an expert and an example of positive or safe gun handling skills.
The unnamed officer in the below link was Bill Jordan
http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-patrol-agent-john-a.-rector
Suwannee Tim
09-11-10, 12:17
I was not aware that Jordan had killed a man. Browsing the Officer Down Memorial Page you find numerous examples of officers killing themselves and others. You will find no more a true believer in gun safety than a man who has accidentally killed someone. It's a damn hard way to learn a lesson but by God, it sticks. Training has not always been what it is today and I suspect that by modern standards Jordan's training was deficient. Even officers with up-to-date training have accidental discharges. Even highly experienced shooters have accidental discharges. I had one today. Shooting a Spike's Tactical 22 LR equipped LMT MRP at 50 yards, mount the gun, sight, shoot, sight again, shoot again, rest. Once I mounted the gun, sighted, fired, took up the first stage for the second shot and bang, before I was ready. And I have shot this very rifle four thousand times in the last two months and it's twin brother a 5.56 and it's big brother a 7.62 another thousand at least and I still had an AD. This gun has a 7 or 8 pound combat trigger. The bullet hit the paper, no one knew but me but it did make an impression on me. It was a blunt reminder that I am human and prone to error. Incidents like this as much as reading about some poor officer that got his brains blown out by a fellow officer or examining my friend's crippled hand make me a true believer in gun safety.
Alpha Sierra
09-11-10, 17:28
Even officers with up-to-date training have accidental discharges. Even highly experienced shooters have accidental discharges. I had one today.
Once again, they are not accidental. They are NEGLIGENT discharges.
titsonritz
09-11-10, 18:05
Wow, just wow...
Once again.
1. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you have made the decision to shoot.
2. Never allow the muzzle to cross anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded at all times.
4. Be sure of your target and what beyond it, beside it and in front of it.
Enough, guys.
Go hit the range.
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