View Full Version : The Younger Generation
Well I've been a member here for almost a year now, and I ghosted for a while before that. Something that I've noticed (aside from the plethora of information on every gun known to man) is that there is a general consensus on the fact that a large part of the younger generation (for argument's sake, we'll say 25 and below) are (in no particular order);
Lazy
Spoiled
Dishonest/Unethical
Cry babies
Disrespectful
Out of touch with reality
"Punks"
The question that I have for you gentleman is; What do you think is the cause of the decline?
I'll post my personal opinion in a bit, but I want some other peoples opinions before I post up.
And for the record, I'm 25, so don't think I'm picking on people for fun.
Part of it is the public education system
Part of it is parents who don't give a damn or don't care
Part of it is parents who don't understand parenting
Part of it is the influence of the media (and this goes back to parenting)
Part of it is the public education system
Part of it is parents who don't give a damn or don't care
Part of it is parents who don't understand parenting
Part of it is the influence of the media (and this goes back to parenting)
agree^
i also blame everyone being more PC. like little league for not keeping score now and how everyone gets a trophy.
but for the record, I think every GEN is called the same names. although i think the entitlement thing seems new.
parishioner
09-10-10, 10:39
I think most of it stems from our country's prosperity in the last few decades. It's natural. Once we get kicked on our ass again economically which doesn't look to far off, I expect to see a shift.
I disagree with the observation. I am only 2 years older than you [27] but I dopn't think I was a d*ck 2 years ago. And niether were any of my friends.
I could argue each of your points individualy, but I would be doing it from my perspective and it would only sound like I am defending myself. Never the less I don't think our generation is any more any of those things that the previous ones were or the future ones will be. Its all a matter of perspective.
Gutshot John
09-10-10, 10:52
Young people tend to be jerks no matter what generation they fall into. 100 years ago the same claim was being made.
The numbers of young men and women I see today stepping up and doing what's right, often at the cost of their own lives, makes the original assertion dubious.
I think it would be harder now-a-days to raise kids, especially boys, than when I was a kid (I am 44 now and graduated high school in 1984).
When I was in school, I was always drawing pictures of swords, weapons, guns, tanks, etc. I did book reports on books about planes from WW2. I had my dungeons and dragons books in school and was designing new adventures. I had the rulebook for the latest Avalon Hill wargame in and was learning the rules. From the time I was in grade school I had pictures I was drawing of weapons, military vehicles, etc.
And in 8th grade I lost recess by having to sit on the curb for pulling a girls bra strap back and letting go.
Now that sort of behavior would get you suspended, and with the bra strap, charged as a sex offender.
Young people tend to be jerks no matter what generation they fall into. 100 years ago the same claim was being made.
The numbers of young men and women I see today stepping up and doing what's right, often at the cost of their own lives, makes the original assertion dubious.
Yes there have always been jerks, etc. However, if you were to somehow take an average of jerkiness / entitled-feeling / etc. All the OP assertions (as modified by .1), and make an average for each generation, I think that you would see a rising average. That does not mean that there are not good people today and there were not jerks in the last X generations.
Attitudes have changed. The feeling of entitlement has gone up. Thw willingness to work as a youth and the expectations of jobs etc has gone up. Whole bevies research papers have been published on the "self esteem" generation and how business has had to react and change to accommodate them in the workplace.
Some kids will go sell lemonade, go mow lawns in the summer, etc to earn money. More kids today feel that is below them and we have to hire illegals now to do that sort of work.
Gutshot John
09-10-10, 11:02
Yes there have always been jerks, etc. However, if you were to somehow take an average of jerkiness / entitled-feeling / etc. All the OP assertions (as modified by .1), and make an average for each generation, I think that you would see a rising average. That does not mean that there are not good people today and there were not jerks in the last X generations.
Attitudes have changed. The feeling of entitlement has gone up. Thw willingness to work as a youth and the expectations of jobs etc has gone up. Whole bevies research papers have been published on the "self esteem" generation and how business has had to react and change to accommodate them in the workplace.
Some kids will go sell lemonade, go mow lawns in the summer, etc to earn money. More kids today feel that is below them and we have to hire illegals now to do that sort of work.
I would argue that no generation in recent history has been more spoiled, more self-entitled and populated with more jerks than the BabyBoomers and they're about to retire.
Well there is a lot to cover here; I'll try to summarize:
It all started with the "womans liberation movement" (Somewhat of a misnomer; as it was really the "tax the other 50% of the population & indoctrinate their children Movement"; literally funded & pushed forward by Rockefellar and other financially elite aristocrats to concentrate power). The movement was really a way to create new economies and tax the other 50% of the population; while also getting children out of the family structure and into goverment indoctrination camps (Public schools) earlier so they could be turned into children of/for the state rather than children of/for the family. This is where the moral and ethical fiber starts to deteriorate; and is then replaced with a need to be a part of the group at any cost; "screw morals * ethics, do what needs to be done top fit in".
The public schools dumb them down so they are just little cogs that fit into pre-packaged groups; and if they don't fit neatly into these groups; or resist the indoctrination, they are disciplined & ostricized for their differences/differing opinions (I am a libertarian and in college I learned to keep my mouth shut for fear of liberal reprisal; I was even failed for my dissenting views in several calsses before i just bit my tongue and siad **** it...Thats what liberalism is; do what we want and think what we think say what we say or you are the enemy and dangerous).
So now we have a bunch of kids who are raised by teachers who couldn't care any less about them, television programming/video games that are alarming and disgusting at there very best; and a government looking to enslave them and turn them into walking ATM machines for the state.
The less and less the parents get involved and allow these forces to bring up their children; the more entitled and whiney the children become; the further they get from a healthy family base they become.
Kids don't do chores these days (they have no idea what real work is), I used to do every single hard labor chore in the house from age 7 on without pay, it was just how i pitched in to help out; if it needed to be done; it was done (I am only 30); and I know kids these days that get paid $100 a month to take the trash out; and they don't even take the trash out but mommy and daddy still give them the money 90% of the time.
When I was 15 (Driving since I was 12 with my grandpa) I bought my first car; $600.00 for a 1985 Ford Crown Victoria LTD powder/sky blue with a police chase engine in it (Old police car; it was a tank!). I drove that sucker until it was dead. I paid my gas my insurance and my licensing fees, mantainence and all tickets/violations I incurred.
Nowadays, kids get a brand new Honda accord or Toyato Tacoma (Some 16 year olds get cars that are worth more than my effing house!) when they turn 16, and they don't even know how to drive yet; mommy pays for insurance and gives a gas per diem, mantainence is taken care of by daddy, and any tickets will be handled with a lawyer and the parents paying the remidial fine for the child.
The main point is that kids are given anything and everythig they want to the point of destroying any semblance of responisbility or accountability in them. They become entitled and not willing to work for anything. Parents don't care anymore (The majority of society at least) they just drive them to school to be brought up by the govt. and then drive them back home to eat dinner and get further attention from the television; never taking a role as a true parent; barely taking an interest at all really. It is a snowball effect and it is disintegrating the finer points of our society quite rapidly.
Every where they look no one is accountable for their actions; politicians; celebrities (The new role models; and how disgusting it is!) their own parents. Why would they magicaly grow a good concience and strong moral fiber when their entire world is a joke piled on a lie? Very few do, less & less voer time; and we can pretty much see the affects of it all playing ou tin our country right now.
There is no real "American Culture" left for these kids, so they grasp on to eastern philosophies and whatever dribble a guy in a pink sheet vommits in there ears and makes them feel good about; because now a days if you don't feel good or speak nice then you are bad or "deporessed" and you need help!!!!!!!! This "lollipops and butterflies/everything is always is and has to be great" attitude is very dangerous. Some times there is pain to be dealt with and I fear people these days have lost that ability and would rather further their problems instead of feel some pain & solve them.
If you know a bunch of 20 somethings these days you probably see the same things I do; a bunch of kids who act like children who don't have jobs, aren't going to school and live with/off mommy and daddy; they have no aspirations and just float along the coat tails of mommy and daddy; and the parents mostly do nothing about it; complacent in there cognizant dissidence. We are creating generations that live off of former generations wealth/knowledge; never seeking their own.
Ask most 16-25 year olds basic civic/history/economic questions, and they are clueless. My sister in law who is 26 doesn't even know the country that we fought the revolutionary war with; doesn't know the branches of goverment; doesn't know one of her consitutional rights or bill of rights; and lives off of mommy and daddy endlessly going to trade school after trade school never applying anything she learns in the real world; just floating. What does she know? She knows who is winning American Idol, who is falling in love on the bachelor, who Tila Tequilla is ****ing, and how every single I-product on the planet works. She also thinks the government is looking ou tfor her berst intrests and wonders why they don't pay for every single social/entitlement program; not realizing that we pay taxes for those programs; and the govt doesn't have some magical credit card they can swipe for anything they wish and never have to pay it back.
It is pathetic to say the least.
I could go on and on...
I would argue that no generation in recent history has been more spoiled, more self-entitled and populated with more jerks than the BabyBoomers and they're about to retire.
Their kids have only inherited the disease more and their grandkids even more.
I disagree with the observation. I am only 2 years older than you [27] but I dopn't think I was a d*ck 2 years ago. And niether were any of my friends.
I could argue each of your points individualy, but I would be doing it from my perspective and it would only sound like I am defending myself. Never the less I don't think our generation is any more any of those things that the previous ones were or the future ones will be. Its all a matter of perspective.
True, it is a matter of perspective. Thus, if you were 35 or 40, your perspective would probably be different, after seeing the generational culture change.
I cannot even relate to today's youth. Know why? Because they won't look up from their cell phones or iPods long enough to interact with people. They cannot carry on meaningful conversation and what they write barely resembles the English language anymore. They have never been told "No" and do feel entitled. They do not respect their elders, never have had to earn anything, never been given responsibilities.
Deeper still is the root of the whole problem: this country has gotten away from God, plain and simple. I couldn't care less who disagrees and flames me for that. This is the truth.
Dirk Williams
09-10-10, 11:05
Very interesting view. I've been spending alot of time with that age group for a long time now. I see it differently " Hard to believe".
Our youth or young adults are alot of things, Smart, driven, dedicated, worldly, focused, know what they want, service oriented, loyal, educated.
Ive have had the honor of watching about 2000 kids in my community grow up from say 5th grade to young adults. I have been pleseantly surprised with most of these young folks chaerchter and content.
Did some of them have bumps in their lives, o yea. Did they find solutions to those problems o yea. No different then my generation. Life is in front of us, Life is the lesson.
I guess one could argue that living in a small community is the cause, but I think in the end most kids or young adults get it.
Most parents here have done fantastic jobs parenting, some were not so successful but in looking at their life's and work schedules it's understand-able, they were doing what needed to be done to meet the needs of their families.
My association with these kids at the time was proffessional, My goal was working with the kids/young adults to teach them problem solving skills and the ability to effectively communicate with others and to determine which resource to tap for specific life issues.
Im still in contact with a great many of these young adults to this day. I can't go into town without running into some of them.
It's been a blast to watch my community's kids grow up and become responsible young mothers and fathers.
It's true that some still struggle with life and making realistic choice's but they at least have the coping skills to get thru that issue.
I have complete faith in our youth.
My concern is not the youth but us older folks who they generally model.
In fact Im now questioning my generations ability to make choice's which reflect the best interest of" We The People", not specific special interest groups.
That group is the Boomers.
I think these youth/young adults have seen the greed and the self serving that is going on today.
It is my prayer that they the youth learn from my generations huge mistakes and greed.
Respectfully,
D Williams
Gutshot John
09-10-10, 11:09
Their kids have only inherited the disease more and their grandkids even more.
Not from my perspective but honest people can disagree. That so many boomers escaped to Canada during Vietnam while their children and grandchildren serve with honor and distinction in the sandbox belies your point.
Boomers sucked the teat dry and once they hit retirement age there will be little, if anything, left for their children or grandchildren.
You forgot "entitled".
That I did.
Like I said, I'm 25. I was raised in a very religious/conservative house. I was taught how to work at a young age, thanks mostly to my Grandparents farm (driving tractor at age 7, bailing hay/straw at 14), since the age of 15 I have had a job in some way shape or form, even while taking 18 credit hours a semester in college (one 3 month stretch where I was unemployed). I have been commended on my good manners and strong work ethic since I was a teenager, and find it very disappointing that most people my age are content to achieve nothing. I understand that work is required for success in whatever area you choose to try and make a living in, but the problem is that the idea of "work first, succeed later" is lost on the majority of my generation and below. With the world of instant gratification, no one wants to put in the time and pay their dues to get to the top. What caused this fundamental breakdown? I only know how I was raised, so I don't understand it. To be honest I'm looking to try and understand it, since I will probably have hiring abilities within a year or 2, and I'm more than a little reluctant to hire anyone near my age group.
I disagree with the observation. I am only 2 years older than you [27] but I dopn't think I was a d*ck 2 years ago. And niether were any of my friends.
I could argue each of your points individualy, but I would be doing it from my perspective and it would only sound like I am defending myself. Never the less I don't think our generation is any more any of those things that the previous ones were or the future ones will be. Its all a matter of perspective.
I wasn't trying to say that everyone 25 and below is a douchebag/asshat. I was saying that there is a very large portion of people around my age that have never done a days worth of real work. Most have no sense of personal responsibility, and again, most do not have a basic understanding of how things work. I weep for this country in 30+ years when my generation is running the place.
(for argument's sake, we'll say 25 and below)
I'd bump that age up to at least the mid-50s. I'm 40, and I'm sure I'm not the only one revolted by people my own age for the same characteristics.
Smuckatelli
09-10-10, 11:17
Below is from a thesis that Kenneth John Freeman in 1907 about his conclusions on ancient Greece:
"The counts of the indictment are luxury, bad manners, contempt for authority, disrespect to elders, and a love for chatter in place of exercise. …
Children began to be the tyrants, not the slaves, of their households. They no longer rose from their seats when an elder entered the room; they contradicted their parents, chattered before company, gobbled up the dainties at table, and committed various offences against Hellenic tastes, such as crossing their legs. They tyrannised over the paidagogoi and schoolmasters."
Reference here. (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/)
These types of complaints or observations are not new, while people contributed the above to Socrates....in fact we know it was a conclusion from 1907. Soooooo at least for the past 103 years the screwed up youth has been around.
I honestly can't recall a time in our history when the military forces have gone continously to war; multiple tours, with an all volunteer military as the method of employment.
Society wise it only makes up a small number of today's youth but leadership also only comes from a small number of the population. The servicemember's peers see what they are doing and they are getting a vague sense but not an understanding of duty above and beyond creature comforts.
My gut check tells me that today's generation of youth will be what saves us a couple decades down the road from the current generation in leadership positions.
Not from my perspective but honest people can disagree. That so many boomers escaped to Canada during Vietnam while their children and grandchildren serve with honor and distinction in the sandbox belies your point.
Well, those same boomers today who escaped to Canada and were protesting the war, are the ones lining the streets with flags and supporting the troops. Everyone changed in that regard
Boomers sucked the teat dry and once they hit retirement age there will be little, if anything, left for their children or grandchildren.
I agree here. But physical reality at that point has little impact on attitudes today. Today, things still look like the land of plenty. Even in this hard economic time, people are not starving, standing in bread lines. They are standing in lines outside of Apple stores to buy iPhones and then they put their hand out to the government to solve their problems and complain that the government needs to fix things.
There are good kids everywhere. There always has been. But I look around my neighborhood and see far more sassing back and lack of work ethic than when I was a kid, and I am sure we were far more spoiled than my parents generation. Just based on physical stuff -- we had much more comfort as a kid than my folks did or their folks.
I grew up in a small town and kids growing up in a small town today are probably better off than kids growing up in a more urban area, in regards the things the ) plus .1 brought up. I know that as soon as I can afford it I want to head to a rural area to bring my kids up and get out of the suburban cesspool.
I know several people who teach in the public schools. What they describe in their classrooms is so far removed from when I was in school 30 years ago that it almost cannot be believed.
I think that this sort of thing goes in cycles but the trend is up over time.
Gutshot John
09-10-10, 11:22
Well, those same boomers today who escaped to Canada and were protesting the war, are the ones lining the streets with flags and supporting the troops. Everyone changed in that regard
So what you're saying is that youth of any generation eventually grow up to lament the youth of the subsequent generation.
Fair enough.
IMHO it's broken homes.
one of my newest favorite quotes "I got spanked look how I turned out" I bought the shirt :D
Dirk Williams
09-10-10, 11:23
What steps have you as an individual taken to help our young adults be better citizens, what is your contribution to their success.
Public education. I spent 9 years working in and around schools. Ive been in every classroom in my town. I personally witnessed great things happening every day.
I saw dedicated teachers teaching their hearts out every day.
I saw kids learning their lessons daily thirsting for more knowledge.
Why is it that every other country in the world wants their children to be educated in the USA.
Are there problems Sure.
Those problems are generally not in classrooms, they are in district offices and with the govt, trying to mandate bullshit rules that hamper the teachers ability to do their jobs.
The problems I did note were from parents who had a fundiamental problem or dis-like for what they thought their child should be learning.
Our classroom education and our teachers are second to nobody in the world .
D Williams
My gut check tells me that today's generation of youth will be what saves us a couple decades down the road from the current generation in leadership positions.
You are probably right. These attitudes go in cycles it seems and lets hope the cycle swings such that the youth can save us.
I think it is more related to prosperity. As we become more prosperous, we lose our sense of responsibility and the feeling of entitlement goes up. When things get worse, attitudes change to be more "conservative". Overall, though, the prosperity level has been going up for the last 100 years, more or less. There have been ups and downs, but the trend is up.
When things change in the future and prosperity goes down, people will adjust and the trend of entitlement and lost sense of responsibility will also go down.
Anyway, I don't think that the two "sides" that have developed here are in opposition to each other. I think they are just highlighting different aspects. It is a complex issue and certainly has multiple aspects and not just black/white.
So what you're saying is that youth of any generation eventually grow up to lament the youth of the subsequent generation.
Fair enough.
Sure. But you are right, the Boomers may be lining the streets to show support of the troops but they are also in the halls of power, whether govt or business, and enriching themselves at the expense of others. What sort of a message is that sending to the youth of today?
I don't disagree with you at all. I just think we are looking at different aspects. It is not cut and dry as we both can find counter examples to the other.
Our classroom education and our teachers are second to nobody in the world .
D Williams
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree there;
Math
4th grade world standing = 12th
8th grade world standing = 28th
12th grade world standing = 19th (keep in mind that some countries do not go up to 12th grade in their school systems)
Science
4th grade world standing = 3rd
8th grade world standing = 17th
12th grade world standing = 16th(keep in mind that some countries do not go up to 12th grade in their school systems)
http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm
As for what I've done to help, well I was involved with my church's youth group for the high school years, and tutored students throughout college. Aside from that not much really. I don't know how to instill a sense of responsibility and personal pride in yourself and your work into someone who is over the age of 20. At that point I feel like you're close to a fully formed person. Yes, you can change, but all the pillars of your personality have been built.
The question that I have for you gentleman is; What do you think is the cause of the decline?
All of it is the fault of the parents - bad schools, lack of religion, sense of entitlement, etc. etc.
What I find most interesting is that the 25-year old OP sees the decline in his contemporaries and doesn't like what he sees. So it isn't just us old farts saying it.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree there;
Math
4th grade world standing = 12th
8th grade world standing = 28th
12th grade world standing = 19th (keep in mind that some countries do not go up to 12th grade in their school systems)
Science
4th grade world standing = 3rd
8th grade world standing = 17th
12th grade world standing = 16th(keep in mind that some countries do not go up to 12th grade in their school systems)
http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm
Test scores do not paint the whole picture. And school quality and teacher quality vary widely in the US. Some areas are abysmal and some are great. The US is a big place.
Well I've been a member here for almost a year now, and I ghosted for a while before that. Something that I've noticed (aside from the plethora of information on every gun known to man) is that there is a general consensus on the fact that a large part of the younger generation (for argument's sake, we'll say 25 and below) are (in no particular order);
Lazy
Spoiled
Dishonest/Unethical
Cry babies
Disrespectful
Out of touch with reality
"Punks"
The question that I have for you gentleman is; What do you think is the cause of the decline?
I'll post my personal opinion in a bit, but I want some other peoples opinions before I post up.
And for the record, I'm 25, so don't think I'm picking on people for fun.
I think you just described the ST fanboys. :D
Yes, I have noticed this same thing with my customer base. The customers that are the biggest PITA to deal with fall into your description.
I would almost like to setup a rule in my shopping cart that you have to be over a certain age to order from us.
C4
Smuckatelli
09-10-10, 12:12
Test scores do not paint the whole picture.
But they are the canvas for what the pollster wants the picture to be. :)
What steps have you as an individual taken to help our young adults be better citizens, what is your contribution to their success.
Public education. I spent 9 years working in and around schools. Ive been in every classroom in my town. I personally witnessed great things happening every day.
I saw dedicated teachers teaching their hearts out every day.
I saw kids learning their lessons daily thirsting for more knowledge.
Why is it that every other country in the world wants their children to be educated in the USA.
Are there problems Sure.
Those problems are generally not in classrooms, they are in district offices and with the govt, trying to mandate bullshit rules that hamper the teachers ability to do their jobs.
The problems I did note were from parents who had a fundiamental problem or dis-like for what they thought their child should be learning.
Our classroom education and our teachers are second to nobody in the world .
D Williams
Steps? Our two boys go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal and before they go to sleep. They know what it is to be spanked with a wooden spoon.
They have three accounts for their money. Charity (GOD), Savings and Spending. At 4 and 6, they have chores and requirements they must do around the house. Disrespect and or being rude is simply not tolerated. They will be jerked out of their seat (no matter where it is) and disciplined on the spot.
As they grow, they won't know that their parents are well off and will have to work for everything. They will visit national monuments and historical places and not get their history from the public school system.
They will be taught that it is an honor to serve their country and Military service will be strongly encouraged/recommended. Knowing how to shoot, repair/build guns will be second nature. Treating women with respect and dignity will also be a "given."
Both parents will be in the home and we will provide them with an example of how to do things the right way.
Whle I cannot raise others peoples children, I am going to do my best that mine are raised properly.
C4
Dirk Williams
09-10-10, 12:36
EJH 28, The problem is generally not the class room teacher. Ive set in on o 125/250 meetings where in the student " Generally primary grades" teacher is not recommending that a student be passed to the next grade level.
The parents are insensed that little billy or suzie aren't einstien and demand that the child be forwarded in school. OR the ADMIN in their wisdom insists that the child be forwarded to the next class.
Not with-standing that little billy or suzie are likely a little imature and could use another oppertunity to stabilize and grasp the learning level currently in.
Can you imagine where we would be if we pumped the resources we pump into high school kids at a younger age, Primary kid ages.
The system does have flaws for a cornicopia of reasons, the parents are a big factor in this. Ive actually been told by sets of parents that if little billy or suzie were held back for the right reasons, that they the parents would be scrutinized by their own peer groups.
In about 1/2 the cases I participated in, the issue boiled down to the parents perception of thier standing within the community, as if it were a reflection of their moral and ethical chartcher.
The real issue or the right issue was, What is really in billy or suzie's best interest.
Sir, I would submit that once a child is behind the eight ball say in a primary grade there is very little chance of that child actually catching up or becoming academically productive.
When that child becomes behind in his peer group, they will often act out in a un-ruley manner to mask their lack of academic standing.
I would also submit to you that Ive seen the data, I learned along time ago that liars figure and figures lie. Those numbers are accurate to a point, BUT at some point it's all about Money and how the Govt doals it out to schools only if they meet the Govt's current educational leaderships expetations.
Im sure we will disagree, that's ok.
AS for you as a fellow human I have complete faith in you and everybody else that you are or will become productive in your life time. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Respectfully,
D Williams
All of it is the fault of the parents - bad schools, lack of religion, sense of entitlement, etc. etc.
What I find most interesting is that the 25-year old OP sees the decline in his contemporaries and doesn't like what he sees. So it isn't just us old farts saying it.
Well I have often considered myself as "Old" for my age. I'm the only person that I know that registered to vote the day they turned 18, and has voted in every election since.
Test scores do not paint the whole picture. And school quality and teacher quality vary widely in the US. Some areas are abysmal and some are great. The US is a big place.
True, but as a country we've been falling behind many other developed nations for our level of education. Asian countries especially.
Steps? Our two boys go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal and at dinner. They know what it is to be spanked with a wooden spoon.
They have three accounts for their money. Charity (GOD), Savings and Spending. At 4 and 6, they have chores and requirements they must do around the house. Disrespect and or being rude is simply not tolerated. They will be jerked out of their seat (no matter where it is) and disciplined on the spot.
As they grow, they won't know that their parents are well off and will have to work for everything. They will visit national monuments and historical places and not get their history from the public school systems.
They will be taught that it is an honor to serve their country and Military service will be strongly encouraged/recommended. Knowing how to shoot, repair/build guns will be second nature. Treating women with respect and dignity will also be a "given."
Both parents will be in the home and we will provide them with an example of how to do things the right way.
While I cannot raise others peoples children, I am going to do my best that mine are raised properly.
C4
You pretty much just outlined how I hope to raise my future children. My whole family was raised that way, and all of us turned out to be very productive members of society. The worst thing any of us has ever done is break the speed limit (well, that we've been caught at, anyways haha).
I'm the only person that I know that registered to vote the day they turned 18, and has voted in every election since.
Me too, so now you know 2 of us. I also spent a high percentage of my youth in uniform - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Explorer Scouts and Army.
Dirk Williams
09-10-10, 12:47
Grant I agree with your view's, unfortunatley as you state you can't raise everybody else children. Most are not from a well off family, 1/8don't have food to eat or multipile sets of cloths to wear.
Hell some don't even have heat in their home in the winter. Yet most arrive daily at public schools and do the best they can with what they have.
Live isn't fair in many instances.
We as the leaders of our communities need to lead by example. Based on what you wrote, I would say your example is outstanding. Good on you.
D Williams
It takes a village to raise all our children.
I am 22.
I think that exact age group that was named (18-25) has got plenty of good people.
Matter of fact I would argue this generation has MORE than some previous generations.
Yes, there are shitbirds, but I feel they get skylined because of the media and other shit.
I also feel a generation is the product of its upbringing or the younger generation is the fruit, while the older is the farmer.
I feel I turned out alright, some what a dick, but never had "god" and all that put into me. I was never told what I had to believe in, I was able to find out for myself.
PJ
I am 22.
I think that exact age group that was named (18-25) has got plenty of good people.
Matter of fact I would argue this generation has MORE than some previous generations.
Yes, there are shitbirds, but I feel they get skylined because of the media and other shit.
I also feel a generation is the product of its upbringing or the younger generation is the fruit, while the older is the farmer.
I feel I turned out alright, some what a dick, but never had "god" and all that put into me. I was never told what I had to believe in, I was able to find out for myself.
PJ
Like yourself, most of the good ones (in the 18-25 range) are in the Military.
I am not sure how you "put GOD" into anyone. If it was possible, I know a lot of people I would like to do it to. :D
We raise our Boys in a Christian home. Once they leave our home, they will be able to choose what they want, but we can at least say that we did our part.
C4
Like yourself, most of the good ones (in the 18-25 range) are in the Military.
I am not sure how you "put GOD" into anyone. If it was possible, I know a lot of people I would like to do it to. :D
We raise our Boys in a Christian home. Once they leave our home, they will be able to choose what they want, but we can at least say that we did our part.
C4
My parents (who are divorced), had always given me the option as to what I wanted to pursue. All they ever said was know the consequences.
I learned things the hard way, but was never forced. So I never rebelled and turned into a pink haired punk, or some tree smoking hippey.
PJ
Lots of people handed lots of stuff without putting any work or effort into it. They have yet to see the real world and know what it is like to eat ramen noodles because you have to, not because it is the cool thing to do.
EJH 28, The problem is generally not the class room teacher. Ive set in on o 125/250 meetings where in the student " Generally primary grades" teacher is not recommending that a student be passed to the next grade level.
The parents are insensed that little billy or suzie aren't einstien and demand that the child be forwarded in school. OR the ADMIN in their wisdom insists that the child be forwarded to the next class.
Not with-standing that little billy or suzie are likely a little imature and could use another oppertunity to stabilize and grasp the learning level currently in.
Can you imagine where we would be if we pumped the resources we pump into high school kids at a younger age, Primary kid ages.
The system does have flaws for a cornicopia of reasons, the parents are a big factor in this. Ive actually been told by sets of parents that if little billy or suzie were held back for the right reasons, that they the parents would be scrutinized by their own peer groups.
In about 1/2 the cases I participated in, the issue boiled down to the parents perception of thier standing within the community, as if it were a reflection of their moral and ethical chartcher.
The real issue or the right issue was, What is really in billy or suzie's best interest.
Sir, I would submit that once a child is behind the eight ball say in a primary grade there is very little chance of that child actually catching up or becoming academically productive.
When that child becomes behind in his peer group, they will often act out in a un-ruley manner to mask their lack of academic standing.
I would also submit to you that Ive seen the data, I learned along time ago that liars figure and figures lie. Those numbers are accurate to a point, BUT at some point it's all about Money and how the Govt doals it out to schools only if they meet the Govt's current educational leaderships expetations.
Im sure we will disagree, that's ok.
AS for you as a fellow human I have complete faith in you and everybody else that you are or will become productive in your life time. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Respectfully,
D Williams
In interest of full disclosure, I went to public schools until 3rd grade, at which point my parents decided to home school us kids(4 total). We were all home schooled until sophomore year of high school, at which point we took MEAP and ACT testing. After that point we went to a community college to finish up high school level classes that could not be provided at home, and began taking college level courses. Afterwards we all went to 4 year colleges, and I am currently the only one of us kids without a masters or doctorate. We were blessed in the fact that both of my parents are very smart people, and our education did not suffer.
Meanwhile in comparison to several friends that attended either public or private schools, their lack of knowledge (or retention) was astounding growing up, and really, all the way through college. You should see the looks on the faces of 19-20 year olds when you walk into a 300 level college class at 17, because you tested out of the pre-req's. And I'm not a particularly bright person, I just studied. However I understand that is not the common theme with home schooled children. Like I said, I got lucky.
But being the exception to the norm doesn't make the norm any shinier. I have an Uncle that is a teacher in inner city Detroit, and believe me, I know it's not all the teachers. The public school system sure seems broken to me. And parents play a large role in any child's life, but at some point the child (usually a teen at this point) has to decide for themselves; "Who am I going to become?".
The problem as I see it is that people are not asking themselves that question anymore.
And I mean no disrespect to any parents, or teachers. Neither is an easy job.
Lots of people handed lots of stuff without putting any work or effort into it. They have yet to see the real world and know what it is like to eat ramen noodles because you have to, not because it is the cool thing to do.
I call college "The Ramen Years", lol
True, but as a country we've been falling behind many other developed nations for our level of education. Asian countries especially.
Well, I won't claim to be an expert on Asian education. Not at all. But test comparisons fall flat. You see, my wife was born and raised in Japan. She experienced the japanese school system. She does not say a lot of good things about it in terms of creating people who can think.
My interpretation of what she has said as well as what I have seen in our visits there (about every other year) make me think that the japanese system is all about memorizing facts and figures and doing well on tests since those tests determine what schools you get into in the future. They don't seem overly high on thinking ability. Just memorizing ability. They even have so-called "cram schools" you can send you kids to so they can get a leg up on cramming info into their brains for the next level of tests. Japan is not really known for entrepreneurship and stuff like that. They have always been good at copying and improving things, but not creating new things (in general terms -- there are always exceptions). (This is from my wife, not from me).
Updated: You think that the attitude of the parents here, in regards how their children's progress reflects on them, is bad. We don't have anything on Japan. Since their culture is based on "the group" rather than the individual (but human nature being what it is and people looking at how it affects them personally) they are really keen on not having THEIR kids be the ones that bring the group "down" or who look like the losers (on a relative scale). Take all the stories you here in the US about parents being mad at the school/teacher/coach/etc when their kids screw up and fail and that all happens in Japan, and probably on a larger scale. I know my wife has mentioned news articles about it to me several times (she reads online Japanese newspapers every day) and I also read a few US articles about the phenomenon in Japan as well over the last few years.
Another example is English. In Japan they start learning English pretty young in school. But it is all about reading and memorization and memorizing grammar. They don't speak a lot and most of them speak atrocious English if they speak at all even though they had like 6-8 years in school. But they can all read it in an OK fashion. I would bet that the average US kid who learns French, Spanish, or German or other language, even though they slaughter it when speaking, still speak that language in a more understandable way than a Japanese speaks English. (While some of that rests on the relative deltas between the languages themselves, a lot has to do with the schooling of the languages).
And Japan is full of lazy kids, punks, people who feel entitled, as well!
Asian kids learn a lot. At least they memorize and cram their brains full of facts and figures. But I don't know how well they learn. I would put up kids from the better US schools against the kids from the better Japanese schools any day. (And that is saying a lot as I don't tend to have very high regards for public schools now-a-days and won't send my kids to them)
Steps? Our two boys go to church every Sunday and pray before every meal and before they go to sleep. They know what it is to be spanked with a wooden spoon.
They have three accounts for their money. Charity (GOD), Savings and Spending. At 4 and 6, they have chores and requirements they must do around the house. Disrespect and or being rude is simply not tolerated. They will be jerked out of their seat (no matter where it is) and disciplined on the spot.
As they grow, they won't know that their parents are well off and will have to work for everything. They will visit national monuments and historical places and not get their history from the public school system.
They will be taught that it is an honor to serve their country and Military service will be strongly encouraged/recommended. Knowing how to shoot, repair/build guns will be second nature. Treating women with respect and dignity will also be a "given."
Both parents will be in the home and we will provide them with an example of how to do things the right way.
Whle I cannot raise others peoples children, I am going to do my best that mine are raised properly.
C4
Amen. I think my two would identify with your two whole-heartedly. I bet they could swap some stories. :D
I think its more kids are raising kids !
many adults that have kids this age are the problem ? the kids are just imitating what they were brought up like and allowed to get away with ?
raise a dog with no discipline see how the dog is !
I am my kids parents ! friends come and go I have never seen best friend parent roles turn out good ! does not mean going camping and doing things that you dont have the best times ! I remember more outings with my parents than my friends cause their was so much value to them !
I love and respect my parents more than any friend ever ! and many friends have come and gone but my parents are my parents !!!
its a love deeper than friendship ! dont over analyze this either :) meaning when we go to the movies we have a good time etc. but its as their parent if that makes sense to some :)
parenting is not about control or allowing its about raising and nurturing
...
The question that I have for you gentleman is; What do you think is the cause of the decline?
...
=================
The problem is the current (my) generation (45-65?) that is "in charge".
We have lost control.
Do you really think that our forefathers risked everything with the intention of having the “Bill of Right freedoms” being used for allowing a deceptive media, porn, sexual promiscuity, abortions, etc.?
Losing control over the TV started the deterioration of the family years ago and it set the pace for the loss of control of the internet today. My kids (youngest is 22) hear more cussing in one night on TV now than they heard their entire life at home.
We didn’t have a TV until my youngest was 13. I figured they were old enough to discern. Big mistake but I didn’t realize it at the time. We shake our heads when we hear cursing on TV but we do nothing!
I think, the computer is the biggest corrupter now. I know the argument is “you have to control the computer in the home”. Listen, if 40-years ago, as controlling as my Mom was, I could sneak a Playboy into me & my brother's 10'X 12' bedroom without her finding out; I can assure you, I could have found a way to get to “porn” on the Internet without her knowing. It is our fault internet trash is so prevalent, we have lost control.
My Dad was killed when I was 6 year old, so my Mom had to work. But she had the FCC watching her back because I grew up with Opie, Tom & Jerry, Red Skelton, etc. Heck Beaver’s mom and dad had separate beds! There are a whole lot more single parents now but they don’t have an FCC they can trust, so they have to “bird dog” their kids-constantly and they really can't. I remember one guy in school parents wouldn’t let him watch Star Trek because Uhura showed too much leg. And this was bad!
Well, enough of my rambling. I think the problems today are caused by the “hippie toleration mindset” that infected my generation and still has us standing by while more and more un-God-liness is allowed to permeate society.
PS - Remember this about parenting your children, "You can't give your kids something you don't have!" That includes patience, respect, fear of God, love, ambition, work ethic, etc.
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She experienced the japanese school system. She does not say a lot of good things about it in terms of creating people who can think.
"See above for full post"
Not trying to dog on you at all, but that's the way my experience was in college. It wasn't about "what you know", it was about "what you memorize before the test". 90% of the class is out the window after the final, not to be revisited again unless you have another class following that line of instruction. And to be honest, a college degree now is like a high school degree 40 years ago. It says "I can learn". While I learned some useful things in college, most of them were not related to my major. Example; I learned more about how to handle people and adult situations from a freshman psychology class than I did from 3 years of "Management" classes. And guess which one I still use, every single day?
variablebinary
09-10-10, 15:29
I am in my mid 30's
From my perspective, everyone under 30 is semi retarded.
For someone on their 50's I am semi retarded.
That's the natural cycle of things. Youth makes you foolish, age and life make you cranky as hell but wiser.
America's decline is rooted in politics not youth, as youth has always been a period of rebellion but very little actual power.
...Youth makes you foolish, age and life make you cranky as hell but wiser....
==================================
I remember an old preacher used to say, "It's a shame to waste all of that youth on them young people."
.
Dirk Williams
09-10-10, 15:42
EJH 28, How does your privliged education have anything to do with the OP. Every year 1000's and 1000's of young men and women graduate from college and achieve everything you have, the difference is the vast majority are products of public schools.
The one thing I see repeatedly from home schooled children is a lack of social skills. Not saying they can't adapt, Im saying it appears to me looking in from the outside that the simply intigrate later in life.
Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
I have learned and seen in my travels that pretty much all the children in 3rd world countries are also home school or not educated at all.
Do you think England. France Sweden Greece Spain etc etc aren't experiencing the same issues. Growing pains
Someone in this thread stated that they felt their current generation was funtionally smarter " 22ish". I agree, these kids injest and retain more information on a daily bases then my generation did in a full month.
My son and daughter are products of public education, most of my kids friends are public educated. The reality is Only in America can you have so many FREE choices regarding education.
Ill say it again it aint perfect however its the best thing going currently and for the last 100 years or so.
Lastly someone also pointed out that 40/65 generation is basically responsible for the mess this country is in.
I agree, What we have modeled daily for our youth and young adults is simply vulgar, we owe them better, they are american citizens like us and deserve better.
Dirk
The one thing I see repeatedly from home schooled children is a lack of social skills. Not saying they can't adapt, Im saying it appears to me looking in from the outside that the simply intigrate later in life.
I see the same thing in a lot of public school kids too now-a-days. They'd rather sit in front of a TV or with an iPod than interact with others. Their ability to interact is terribly deficient in many of the kids I see running around our middle-classs neighborhood.
We home school (though the program is actually sponsored by a public school district and he counts as a public school student). We are concerned about this aspect and are trying to make sure he has lots of kid interaction time at church, in the neighborhood, and with his friends. It is something we struggle with.
We also try and teach and practice the other sorts of social skills as well -- the things like manners, respect for other, etc.
And I agree that most home schooled children are very anti-social. I was lucky enough to have a very active social life, and a large family, so that wasn't an issue with us. However some other home school kids in our area where not as lucky.
I was explaining my background so that people understand where I'm coming from when I say that if the schools are an issue with producing less than enthusiastic kids/adults. Stamping out creativity takes it's toll.
I am not saying that if you went to a public school you are less of a person. It was brought up that the schools bear some responsibility for the issues listed in the OP. That's just the topic that has been brought up, and I commented on it.
It all falls on the parents.
When I screwed up it wasnt a "spanking" it was a dope slap, or just a straight up hit.
I respected both my parents, not because they demanded it, because they earned it.
I developed a sense of right and wrong not from being told, but from what I felt.
As for home schooling, I do not like it. I have worked with them for 10 years, and lived with them for the past 5 years. IMHO they grow up a sheltered life. THey live in a bubble. Usually they have a hard time dealing with reality or the decide to rebel because they are so frustrated. Just my opinion though
PJ
You are probably right. These attitudes go in cycles it seems and lets hope the cycle swings such that the youth can save us.
I think it is more related to prosperity. As we become more prosperous, we lose our sense of responsibility and the feeling of entitlement goes up. When things get worse, attitudes change to be more "conservative". Overall, though, the prosperity level has been going up for the last 100 years, more or less. There have been ups and downs, but the trend is up.
When things change in the future and prosperity goes down, people will adjust and the trend of entitlement and lost sense of responsibility will also go down.
Anyway, I don't think that the two "sides" that have developed here are in opposition to each other. I think they are just highlighting different aspects. It is a complex issue and certainly has multiple aspects and not just black/white.
I disagree. Most I come in contact with have the attitude of "the government will fix it or do it" because that is what they are being taught.
Me too, so now you know 2 of us. I also spent a high percentage of my youth in uniform - Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Explorer Scouts and Army.
Me three. I also enlisted at 17 so...
RogerinTPA
09-10-10, 19:12
Throughout the ages:
Improper Parenting.
Sparing the Rod.
Natural rebellious streak.
Last 20 years: The touchy Feely rebellion.
Pressing Self -Esteem, to the extreme in our youth, which has lead to:
1. He isn't under mature or a bully, he has ADD or ADHD
2. Everyone wins, there are no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place (Losers).
3. Over sensitive adult males
As a side note, I resent having to talk to a young adult male in the same industry, like I'm trying to get a piece of ass from my girlfriend, in order to get them to do their ****in job.:mad:
It all falls on the parents.
When I screwed up it wasnt a "spanking" it was a dope slap, or just a straight up hit.
I respected both my parents, not because they demanded it, because they earned it.
I developed a sense of right and wrong not from being told, but from what I felt.
As for home schooling, I do not like it. I have worked with them for 10 years, and lived with them for the past 5 years. IMHO they grow up a sheltered life. THey live in a bubble. Usually they have a hard time dealing with reality or the decide to rebel because they are so frustrated. Just my opinion though
PJ
We home school our kids because public schools suck in our area. Not to mention all the other crap you get there.
Home school kids that are "sheltered" are because their parents did not get them involved with other groups (church, sports, 4H, boy scouts, etc, etc).
My 6yr old was reading at 4, counts and speaks in French, touch types, does math at a 3rd grade level +, can name all the presidents in order AND can recognize them by their face.
My friends "smart" kids attending public schools do not hold a candle to my son.
C4
We home school our kids because public schools suck in our area. Not to mention all the other crap you get there.
Home school kids that are "sheltered" are because their parents did not get them involved with other groups (church, sports, 4H, boy scouts, etc, etc).
My 6yr old was reading at 4, counts and speaks in French, touch types, does math at a 3rd grade level +, can name all the presidents in order AND can recognize them by their face.
My friends "smart" kids attending public schools do not hold a candle to my son.
C4
Like I said, it falls on the parents. And it looks like it has fallen very nicely for you (that is a compliment even if it does not sound like it).
PJ
Like I said, it falls on the parents. And it looks like it has fallen very nicely for you (that is a compliment even if it does not sound like it).
PJ
It ALWAYS falls on the parents. No matter if your child is in public school, private school or home schooled.
You get out what you put in.
There are a lot of home schoolers that probably should NOT home school their children.
C4
It ALWAYS falls on the parents. No matter if your child is in public school, private school or home schooled.
You get out what you put in.
There are a lot of home schoolers that probably should NOT home school their children.
C4
Not that I am religious, but AMEN to everything said there.
PJ
Not that I am religious, but AMEN to everything said there.
PJ
I'm not "religious" either. ;)
C4
It ALWAYS falls on the parents. No matter if your child is in public school, private school or home schooled.
You get out what you put in.
There are a lot of home schoolers that probably should NOT home school their children.
C4
I agree 100%. And I think a lot of parents home school for the wrong reasons. Unfortunately those parents usually are not the best ones to be teaching their children how to grow into mature, intelligent adults. I would guess about 2 out of 3 of the families in the group we were a part of (total of 25 families) should not have been home schooling.
A lot of talk about "Big bad people in the world" and the children were incredibly sheltered.
My best friend is 24. Note that I am 46, going on 47. I've changed my perspective, seeing things through her eyes, for the last several years. This has led me to the following conclusion:
I think the "kids these days" thing is mostly a myth. "Kids these days" have always been looked upon poorly by previous generations.
Having said that, there are some objective issues that could be addressed:
In the US, the generation we are speaking of is poorly educated, as a whole. There is historic record to demonstrate this; including text books and test scores that show a high school education in the US today is roughly equivalent to a 5th grade education in 1950. And that is sad.
This generation is the fattest, laziest generation in the known history of the world. Again, easily demonstrated by several objective factors. If you are over 40, do you remember the fat kid in your class? Now it is the kid(s) that aren't fat that are the exception. Kids are just less active and eat bigger sized meals. Photographic records alone prove this.
As far as stepping up to military service, there are lots of generations prior to this who felt no compunction to serve their country for any reason.
I am encouraged, though, by the ones who do step up, self-motivate and get a good education.
And I disagree that education needs to be dictated on anyone. I don't care to pass judgment on who should, or should not be home-schooling their kids. The above-mentioned 24 year old educated herself, more or less, (Didn't attend school until University and Grad School) and my eldest daughter was home-schooled because the gov't school was so piss-poor that I was having to re-teach the classes the ****ed up idiots the gov't paid to teach in the first place. I just decided to cut out the 6.5 hours my daughter wasted at school. (She averaged about 2 hours a day at home doing schoolwork, and knocked the gov't tests out of the park, btw under my tutelage)
And I disagree that education needs to be dictated on anyone. I don't care to pass judgment on who should, or should not be home-schooling their kids. The above-mentioned 24 year old educated herself, more or less, (Didn't attend school until University and Grad School) and my eldest daughter was home-schooled because the gov't school was so piss-poor that I was having to re-teach the classes the ****ed up idiots the gov't paid to teach in the first place. I just decided to cut out the 6.5 hours my daughter wasted at school. (She averaged about 2 hours a day at home doing schoolwork, and knocked the gov't tests out of the park, btw under my tutelage)
Agree. The schools can only teach as fast as the worst student can learn.
We can spend 2hrs a day teaching our children (VS the 6-8 at school) and get more done. They will also have a better education.
C4
Failure2Stop
09-13-10, 11:43
Young people tend to be jerks no matter what generation they fall into. 100 years ago the same claim was being made.
The numbers of young men and women I see today stepping up and doing what's right, often at the cost of their own lives, makes the original assertion dubious.
I agree with this.
I currently have complaint about some aspects of these young men, but a lot of it is due to institutional cuddling and the belief that paperwork has the same deterrent factor as professionally applied pain.
Go ask your grandparents what they thought of your parents' generation when they were young. Ask them what their parents thought of them.
Especially in my area of the country I do think that things are "worse" with kids than they were when I was in high school, but I also lived in a different geographical location. From what I hear from people my age that went to high school where I live now nothing has changed.
From the prespective of a all too soon to be 40 year old, father of three, assistant scout master, assistant cub master, soccer coach, and even as an adult registered girl scout:
Are all of the newest generate a bunch of know nothing, lazy, malingering slackers, with dellusions of granduer and entitlement? Nope. There are those of this new crop of younglings that are indeed ready to take on the world and bust their humps. However the cray babies seem to represent the largest portion of this genearation than they have in past generations. I have friends in the mental health field that have been doing this for a goodly number of years and they are pulling their hair out. The troubled kids today seem to have taken yesterdays troubled teens and turned the dial up to 11. This is especially true of girls. For some reason they are an even bigger portion of the problem children with many of them close to or full on bat shit crazy.
Now what is causing this? Over indulgent parents, a coddling school system, and I will even blame the kid sitcoms on Nick and the Disney Channel. These kids are simply not prepared for the bitch slapping that life hands them. They are unable to comprehend how life couldn't give two shits about their self esteem. They have been raised to believe that they are mini adults. The kiddie-coms teach them that all they need to get by in life is a snarky attitude and quick comeback. They don't understand how to earn things and they do not have a divine right to that which they want.
Despite all of this, there are some amazing kids out there that are good, that work hard, who do well. Sure they are different. They have iPhones, we had walkmen. Each generation has its nuances. Some times the older generation gets em, some times they dont.
I "personally" believe parents do NOT parent anymore. I see parents these days that have the attitude that school, TV, and their kids friends will do the parenting for them and that they (the parents) "both" have to work hard to make ends meet and that they just don't have the time to spend with the kids. Many parents tell me they just can't compete with all the info flowing at their kids and can only hope the kids choose for themselves to turn out OK.
When I was a kid I didn't have a choice to turn out OK, if I didn't do the right thing I got my ass kicked:D
I "personally" believe parents do NOT parent anymore. I see parents these days that have the attitude that school, TV, and their kids friends will do the parenting for them and that they (the parents) "both" have to work hard to make ends meet and that they just don't have the time to spend with the kids. Many parents tell me they just can't compete with all the info flowing at their kids and can only hope the kids choose for themselves to turn out OK.
When I was a kid I didn't have a choice to turn out OK, if I didn't do the right thing I got my ass kicked:D
The sad thing is that 90% (am pulling that number out of my ass) of two income families NEED the income not for necessities, but for luxuries. In fact, luxuries unheard of in previous generations.
The cost of necessities has been flat or even decreased over the last 30 years.
I take this viewpoint having been creamed in a car accident and unable to work full time for 6 years. I eliminated the luxuries in our families' life and somehow managed to raise a family of four on part time income during that time. Without sucking on gov't teat, either.
I tire easily of hearing about how Americans "need" a certain standard of living. The poorest Americans are in the top 2% of income and standard of living in the entire freaking WORLD.
120MM said a prayer for your recovery buddy!
God Bless You & Your Family
If I was, or find myself later in life, raising a traditional family I would absolutely live a reduced lifestyle in order to have someone at home with the kids. In fact I'd try my best to homeschool the kids. Homeschool kids are only defective if they have lazy parents, and the kids would still be defective even if they went to public school because they're parents are idiots. I had a poor view of homeschool kids until i met the kids across the street from us who are very well adjusted thanks to the tireless efforts of their parents.
In our neighborhood there are a lot of stay at home moms because it's a fairly well-off neighborhood. In general I think this is a good thing, but many of them still have nannies and housekeepers! :eek: and once the kids go to school I can't help but wonder what they do all day. That shit's not any more likely to produce quality human beings either.
Bolt_Overide
09-14-10, 05:35
Id have to say its a combination of a lot of things.
The decline of our educational system.
The decline of family values.
The upsurge in liberal entitlements.
I wont bother adding more, I could rant for an hour without stopping.
Bottom line, our country is sliding into the shitter, its just slow enough that most people fail to notice or care.
120MM said a prayer for your recovery buddy!
God Bless You & Your Family
Oh, I recovered years ago. Or actually, I am still recovering, but I'm plenty fine.
I just wanted to demonstrate that income is not as important as many say it is.
Dirk Williams
09-14-10, 11:49
You don't like the education system.
You don't like the legal system.
You don't like two folks working to reach a set goal.
You have a better way.
You don't like our youth.
YET you continue to recieve the benifits of this Great Nation, to include the right to bitch openly.
Are you part of the problem. Or part of the solution. That is a real choice you get to make.
I am truly amazed at how differently we all see our world.
I have the honor of baby sitting my 22 month old grandson today.
Ive lost a hip, might be loosing the other one, losing my career, No source of immediate income in sight.
The glass IS half full. I look forward to the challenges daily.
Dirk
Belmont31R
09-14-10, 12:10
There have been lots of shitbags in every generation, and generally every generation thinks the following generation do not match up to them.
Speaking of entitlement mentality the real entitlements in our society started long before the kids, teens, and my age group (20's) were born. Previous generations brought us great things like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP, food stamps, welfare, ect. The brunt of which my generation will have to pay for. Go ask a bunch of seniors if they want to see SS and Medicare done away with...then you accuse my generation of being of an entitlement mentality?
The 60's was full of hippies who protested Vietnam far worse than people protested my generations war (GWOT/OIF/OEF). Then all those violent hippies grew up to be professors who indoctrinate college students, and generally led a massive campaign for the last 50 years to turn us commie.
Its not my generation in charge of things. All the things you guys complain about are a result of your generations doings. Kids aren't setting school policies, not making laws, ect. There have, and will always be poor parents. It used to be if a teen girl got pregnant they would ship her off to a home to give birth, and the kid would grow up in an orphanage because the parents didnt want the shame of an unwed teen mother in their home. Instead of taking responsibility for the kid they just shoved it on someone else. You can also check out the average mothers age for having kids. Its actually going up not down.
Speaking of entitlement mentality the real entitlements in our society started long before the kids, teens, and my age group (20's) were born. Previous generations brought us great things like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP, food stamps, welfare, ect. The brunt of which my generation will have to pay for. Go ask a bunch of seniors if they want to see SS and Medicare done away with...then you accuse my generation of being of an entitlement mentality?
Different kind of entitlement.
Belmont31R
09-14-10, 12:36
Different kind of entitlement.
No, not really, and its that generation that brought us these great gifts to society we get to pay for much more than they ever did.
That "I get free shit" or "I deserve it" (even though I never earned it) mentality has just filtered down to my generation, and the entitlement mentality most seniors have is far more destructive than anything my generation has going on.
Bill Bryant
09-14-10, 12:48
I'm speaking as a veteran high school teacher and parent who has raised his family now. The problem is parents, and schools, and media, and pop culture, and video games, and prosperity, and leisure, and atheism, and the 60s . . . in other words, it's everything. Our culture is going down the drain, spinning faster every day, and what this is doing to youth is vivid, tragic, and probably inescapable.
Fortunately, as most in our 20-something generation sit in their parents' basements playing Halo and wondering why Mom hasn't order pizza yet, a few kids (like my saxophone student of seven years who just got accepted at the Joffrey Ballet school in NY, and my son, who is finishing the Crucible at Pendleton even as I write) are refusing to be sucked down the toilet. As the light on our culture dims, a few bright stars will shine ever brighter.
If I was, or find myself later in life, raising a traditional family I would absolutely live a reduced lifestyle in order to have someone at home with the kids. In fact I'd try my best to homeschool the kids. Homeschool kids are only defective if they have lazy parents, and the kids would still be defective even if they went to public school because they're parents are idiots. I had a poor view of homeschool kids until i met the kids across the street from us who are very well adjusted thanks to the tireless efforts of their parents.
In our neighborhood there are a lot of stay at home moms because it's a fairly well-off neighborhood. In general I think this is a good thing, but many of them still have nannies and housekeepers! :eek: and once the kids go to school I can't help but wonder what they do all day. That shit's not any more likely to produce quality human beings either.
Home Schooling is great if done right and there are usually many home school groups of like thinking parents so your kids and spend time with them and still learn how to be socially functional. Having he kids socially interact more with adults because of home schooling also matures them and their language skills. I've always had home schooled children come up to me and confidently converse with me and not have that intimidation of talking to adults that many other kids have. I hope to home school mine. I have 3 nephews all 9 yr olds that I'm teaching to play football now first games are Sat. its a hoot!
There have been lots of shitbags in every generation, and generally every generation thinks the following generation do not match up to them.
Speaking of entitlement mentality the real entitlements in our society started long before the kids, teens, and my age group (20's) were born. Previous generations brought us great things like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP, food stamps, welfare, ect. The brunt of which my generation will have to pay for. Go ask a bunch of seniors if they want to see SS and Medicare done away with...then you accuse my generation of being of an entitlement mentality?
As far as shitty generations are concerned, the one that came to age immediately following WWI was much worse than anything you can point out today. They were the generation which did heavy duty experimentation with everything, including the "isms" that we now know is pure-D evil. They also conveniently missed out on WWII, but this didn't stop them from profiting from it.
The 60's was full of hippies who protested Vietnam far worse than people protested my generations war (GWOT/OIF/OEF). Then all those violent hippies grew up to be professors who indoctrinate college students, and generally led a massive campaign for the last 50 years to turn us commie.
Not as bad as the 1920s generation, but I like the way you think.
Its not my generation in charge of things. All the things you guys complain about are a result of your generations doings. Kids aren't setting school policies, not making laws, ect. There have, and will always be poor parents. It used to be if a teen girl got pregnant they would ship her off to a home to give birth, and the kid would grow up in an orphanage because the parents didnt want the shame of an unwed teen mother in their home. Instead of taking responsibility for the kid they just shoved it on someone else. You can also check out the average mothers age for having kids. Its actually going up not down.
Here's the only thing I disagree with. I'm old, adopted and think the movement toward murdering your baby for convenience is nothing to brag about.
Belmont31R
09-14-10, 22:47
As far as shitty generations are concerned, the one that came to age immediately following WWI was much worse than anything you can point out today. They were the generation which did heavy duty experimentation with everything, including the "isms" that we now know is pure-D evil. They also conveniently missed out on WWII, but this didn't stop them from profiting from it.
Not as bad as the 1920s generation, but I like the way you think.
Here's the only thing I disagree with. I'm old, adopted and think the movement toward murdering your baby for convenience is nothing to brag about.
Roe vs. Wade was a full 10 years before I was born, and Ill be 27 next month.
(1973) The year Roe was decided was still chock full of hippies. The same generation that lambasts mine.
Before I was born: SS, Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP, Foodstamps, assisted housing, abortion, hippies (who are in charge now), Weather Underground, SDS, ect. Oh yeah the 68 Gun Control Axct, 89 Import Ban, 86 freeze on new MG's....
My generation (20's now) has GWOT, OIF, OEF, Heller Vs. DC, McDonald, ect......:shout:
Roe vs. Wade was a full 10 years before I was born, and Ill be 27 next month.
(1973) The year Roe was decided was still chock full of hippies. The same generation that lambasts mine.
Before I was born: SS, Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP, Foodstamps, assisted housing, abortion, hippies (who are in charge now), Weather Underground, SDS, ect. Oh yeah the 68 Gun Control Axct, 89 Import Ban, 86 freeze on new MG's....
My generation (20's now) has GWOT, OIF, OEF, Heller Vs. DC, McDonald, ect......:shout:
Man... I think we'd get along.
You forgot impatience. I think it is parenting and the school system.
I was a a kids baseball game a few years ago and disgusted when I saw all the kids get to run the bases and they don't keep score. What the heck is up with that. There are winners and losers in life. There should be in sports too.
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