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VMI-MO
09-11-10, 15:38
Mastering Your Weapon System: The Zero

A close friend of mine participated in a "sniper match" this summer down in NC. This comp was 8"-10" steel plates at ranges from 200m out to 430m. He shot this competition with a 16" Noveske, EOtech XPS, and PMC 55grn ammo. He ended up winning this competition with all targets hit, in a time of 15minutes. The next closest shooter had a time of 24+minutes and failed to hit all the targets. All the other shooters were using optics with magnification no less than 4x.

The day before the match, my friend went out and shot 10rd groups, from varying positions at ranges out to 400m. He kept track of where all his rounds went. He then committed it to memory so that he knew given a position and a range, where that bullet was going to end up. This is what gave him the edge of the other shooters at the match. He knew and understood his zero.

In the real world it is also a must to know and understand your zero. Think of the soldier in Afghanistan. How big are the targets he is engaging and how much time does he have to do it? Or think of the civilian in a home defense situation. Is that shot he is about to take going to smoke a bad guy in the tbox or go high? Knowing where your rounds will go can determine the difference between a first shot hit or miss.

First off this is not aimed at being the 25m vs. 33yd vs. 50m vs. 100m zero debate. This is aimed at getting shooters to realize zeroing your weapon is much more involved than simply proning out at a given range, and shooting a tight as group as possible as close to the bull as possible.

Most shooters I know zero their weapon by going prone at the 100m mark and firing a few groups of 5rds and making some minor adjustments. Ok, if that is good enough for you than that's cool. But think, how often do you ever end up prone shooting? If the answer is allot you might want to look at your training regime.

For me, I prefer to know exactly where my rounds are going to go not only at varying distances, but also varying positions.

Do you have the exact same cheek weld standing at 100m as you do when you are prone? What about sitting? Kneeling? Using a barricade? What about all these positions left handed?

As an example gathered from how I shoot, these are some major differences. Bear in mind all these numbers come from the same rifle with a "100m zero".
-When I shoot with gear on, with my rifle that was zeroed without gear on at 100m I can expect the rounds to impact up to 2" low.
-When I shoot left handed I can expect my rounds to impact 2"-3" to the right at 100m
-When I use a barricade my round impact will always be 1"-2" high relative to my point of aim (the barrel is not being rested on anything)
-When I use a sitting or kneeling position from 50m-100m my POA is POI.

Some shooters seem to rely on a ballistic calculator to tell them where their rounds are going to go. IMHO that is ok. It gives you the rough idea of where your round will be. But you must take into account things such as cheek weld, eye relief and your weapons general orientation.

So what must a shooter do in order to master his zero? He needs to shoot, and he needs to keep track of where he is aiming and where his rounds end up. For me I boiled it down into the following stages for getting a true feel for where my rounds are going to end up.

Like the traditional zero, I fire 5rd groups at 100m and work them on until the group is where I want it. This is done in whatever gear I use when I shoot. If the rifle is new, I start in close just to make sure I have it on paper.

Once I have it where I want it, I shoot the 100m VTAC aggregate. I shoot each stage of this however on a different target, and on each target, I will always hold center of the bull. I apply no holds. The aggregate consists of
10rds, prone, 100m
10rds, sitting, 75m
10rds, kneeling, 50m
10rds, standing 25m.
While your prone might be spot on, your sitting, kneeling and standing all group to the right (this is arbitrary and used only as an example). Now do you keep this 100m prone zero, or do you adjust on for the three positions where you consistently group right? The answer is up to you, which should be based off where you expect to do most of your shooting from.

After I have adjusted it, I then move to the 7m, 10m, 15m, 25m, 35m,50m mark and fire standing. This position is exactly like I use in the rest of my training, it is not modified to shoot bulls eyes. From this I am able to gather in the info to know where I need to hold, or where my POI is relative to my POA at all those ranges. I will say that from this I now have specific aiming points I can easily and effectively rely on for those ranges.

I then add barricades into the mix at varying ranges (usually 75m, 100m,125m,150m). Using barricades in a fashion that mirrors that of how I would do it in reality I shoot again for groups. Where a ballistic computer says and where my rounds actually impact are two different things.

For these last two stages I do not make changes to my optic, i take note, and commit to memory where my groups lean toward, so that I can apply that hold when needed.

For all these different positions my groups never stray more than 4" from my 100m Agg. zero. Some might say "4inches, thats no worries". Well in my book 4" is enough to miss by.

To reiterate, this all comes down to each individual shooter and how that shooter mounts the weapon. Some might find differences between varying positions, while others are the JBM ballistic calculator incarnate. So what works for me, might be completely different for you. This is not designed as a "must do it this way", but something to get shooters thinking and analyzing their systems to make them more effective.



PJ

M4Fundi
09-12-10, 01:05
Good info... Im the same I take my ballisticcalc info out w/me & then fid out what works for me. My eyes were better than 20/10 at one point in my life and now they r simply very different and when u combine that with personal shooting variations/abberations u get VERY personal results that can be affectively applied but only if u know what they r for yourself

rob_s
09-12-10, 05:57
One of the nice things about Randy Cain's carbine course is that you leave with a zero you've been working on for three days.

Good post VMI.

120mm
09-12-10, 07:11
Wow. That just changed my way of thinking about my zero.

That post was very Miyamoto Musashi-esque.

Good job.

travistheone
09-12-10, 08:00
Good post! Helps with something that I struggle with from time to time.

UDT
09-12-10, 08:34
Thanks, for sharing. Good info.

cgcorrea
09-12-10, 09:31
Thanks VMI-MO. Great info.

Chris Rhines
09-12-10, 14:58
All very good advice. I see a lot of shooters who should know better, come to the range and the matches with a weapon that they don't have a confirmed zero for. I've even done it myself once or twice...

-C

Watrdawg
09-13-10, 08:37
I've never thought of a zero in that manner. I shoot my hunting rifle a lot and shoot out to 400 yards often. I know where my rounds hit at various distances. However, I am not that detailed and do not change my zero with that rifle. With the round I hunt with I zero in at 1.7" high at 100 yards and then varify that my rounds land within the vitals at various distances with whatever holdover I may need out to 400 yards. This is all prone of off of a bench. That's a hunting mentality though.

I will definitely rethink my zero with my carbine. It's brand new and I'm going to zero this weekend.

sadmin
09-13-10, 08:56
great post, great info; I look forward to application and the results.
Thanks!

comprido
09-13-10, 17:01
Good post. You can bet the top 3-gunners have good range cards out to the maximum distance they'll be shooting for any match. (Kind of surprises me that it sounds like the rest of the competitors in NC didn't. Was it a big match?)

Burkett harps on it, even with the pistol. He was surprised most of the combat shooters he teaches don't know where their handguns hit at 50m. (I'm a bit guilty there. I know what the tables say, but I haven't tested it.)

I know Cooley said he sometimes will dial in distances for separate stages rather than using trying to use a holdover. With my Meopta, I know where the top and bottom of my dot and the top and bottom of the post all hit based on various zeros.

<Break>

Why do you think your POI changes when you are wearing kit?

TriumphRat675
09-13-10, 17:40
Posts like this are why this site is a great resource. It's something I never even thought about. Thanks.

M4Fundi
09-13-10, 18:08
If you want to get fully Miyamoto Musashi on your zeros & offsets read F2S's excellent post here:eek:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33747

This is one reason why I like an FSB in the bottom part of my Aimpoint as I have a tendency to mount the rifle with a slight twist to it and the FSB gives me a vertical reference which makes my longer shots more accurate and lets me better know what my offsets should be when my gun is twisted at an unusual angle like thru a 45 degree slot, etc.

platoonDaddy
09-13-10, 18:12
Been passing up this thread for a few days and decided to open it tonight: dang what a great post!

Thanks.

PT Doc
09-13-10, 19:42
I took an Awerbuck pistol/carbine class recently and this line of thinking was one he emphasized on several occasions. Good post.

VMI-MO
09-15-10, 07:04
Good post. You can bet the top 3-gunners have good range cards out to the maximum distance they'll be shooting for any match. (Kind of surprises me that it sounds like the rest of the competitors in NC didn't. Was it a big match?)

Burkett harps on it, even with the pistol. He was surprised most of the combat shooters he teaches don't know where their handguns hit at 50m. (I'm a bit guilty there. I know what the tables say, but I haven't tested it.)

I know Cooley said he sometimes will dial in distances for separate stages rather than using trying to use a holdover. With my Meopta, I know where the top and bottom of my dot and the top and bottom of the post all hit based on various zeros.

<Break>

Why do you think your POI changes when you are wearing kit?


The other shooters did have a range card, but they did not KNOW their range card. That is the key to having a happy ending. Writing it down is one thing, being able to apply it on the fly and not needing a card, that is the start of mastering your system.

POI change with kit primarily is caused by how I must shoulder the weapon, the change of stock length, and the pocket my specific PC creates for me. Honestly, I cannot pin it down to one thing scientifically, I just know it happens.


PJ

VMI-MO
09-15-10, 07:06
If you want to get fully Miyamoto Musashi on your zeros & offsets read F2S's excellent post here:eek:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33747

This is one reason why I like an FSB in the bottom part of my Aimpoint as I have a tendency to mount the rifle with a slight twist to it and the FSB gives me a vertical reference which makes my longer shots more accurate and lets me better know what my offsets should be when my gun is twisted at an unusual angle like thru a 45 degree slot, etc.


Yes, F2S is full on Samuri. Being able to apply what was written in the above link with F2S was a HUGE learning experience.

I am still waiting in line at the jedi temple. :(


PJ

meirvin
09-15-10, 07:19
Very good info for sure thanks OP

sinister
09-15-10, 11:06
Very good post.

It ain't a zero until you've shot it and confirmed it.

Some will pooh-pooh Known Distance highpower rifle competitors as shooting unrealistic courses of fire -- while never having shot the same ranges and logging no-shit data themselves.

Every time I read nonsense like that with their defense of, "That's not how it's done in combat" should remember that some of the best combat shooters we've ever produced have also fired on KD ranges with all their combat kit on, shooting issued guns, against their peers under objective times and scoring.

Combat and bullseye Excellence-in-Competition Leg matches and The President's Match at Camp Perry are shot "Shoot what you brung" -- no zero confirmation, no "Sighters," you have 30 to 50 shots -- and all count the first time. You need to know your data and be able to adjust for conditions (wind, light, humidity, temperature, whether or not you're hung over or got a shot of leg last night, etc.). Top scores are the top scores.

KNOWING where your shot will go vice Guessing is the difference between floundering and mastery.

http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc01053_std.jpg
http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/08/AllArmy/dsc00963_std.jpg

comprido
09-15-10, 12:03
The other shooters did have a range card, but they did not KNOW their range card. That is the key to having a happy ending. Writing it down is one thing, being able to apply it on the fly and not needing a card, that is the start of mastering your system.

PJ

Another good point. Thanks.

Alpha Sierra
09-15-10, 19:05
Any good highpower rifle shooter has a range book brimming with data about the conditions present at every match, the actual come ups for each distance and position fired on every match, and much, more information.

The information must be collected, analyzed, and acted upon to achieve mastery over one's rifle.

Surf
09-29-10, 02:34
Interesting that I only now caught this thread. Last week I just finished giving of our effin new guys 4 day basic rifle class. The first day we zero irons and they run irons for all 4 days. For many of them, this is their first time running full kit. Zeroing from prone we set them up, body position, etc, etc, and I stress natural point of aim and repeatability of everything they do. It is always interesting as they start getting more comfortable or adjusting their body positions or making small adjustments as they get used to being prone in their gear. Just the smallest of changes will reflect on the target zero, especially when they are using irons and having to align front and rears as opposed to being able to get away with more with a red dot. I then translate this simple prone concept of minor variation into other shooting positions. This really does sink it into their minds the importance of zero and repeatability especially when you may be shooting out of an improvised position.

On another note of the original post, I prefer that guys know their hold offs on irons or red dots in incremental distances out to say 450-500 yards, even though in LE this is really outside of what reality will be. We do a 50y BZO and I like them to reconfirm or experience the outer distance POA / POI and then work out to various distances with hold offs.

As for my bolt rifle, I will continually practice my mil dot hold offs out to these same distances. Given wind and distance a hold off is very damn effective if practiced well. If you only want center of scumbag accuracy than even easier.