View Full Version : Franken'gun mistakes by new guys? What to avoid?
Does a single thread exist that offers a good discussion of the common Franken'gun mistakes people make? What keeps a new guy from buying high quality components from making his or her own upper?
What I'm really thinking about, are the guys that can't buy a $1200 upper at one time but, could buy a Noveske barrel on one pay check, a billet upper with the next, and ...
Is there some magic sauce that the good builders use that new guys don't know about ? Can the experience of others be learned by the new guy for their first build?
FWIW, personally I have done the numbers for myself and prefer to go direct with Noveske being my personal favorite source right now. I don't want to spend >$1K to travel to a class and worry I missed something in my rifle. My focus needs to stay on the lessons of the instructor and not on my personal build quality. ;)
Thanks!
You have pretty much nailed it. The biggest mistake I see is buying everything on price. But that is the #1 reason people build their own, to save money. So it is a Catch-22.
I never got the thrill of Building a AR.. I like to shoot them.. So I just Buy a good one and then I don't have to Worry....:)
That will always be my advice to a new guy..... Make your first one a factory build and focus on your skill of learning it and using it....There would be less troubleshooting forums on the internet that way....;)
As already pointed out, many people buy the cheapest parts possible to build the cheapest weapon possible. In their cases, it is often a project that is doomed even before they start.
Building a weapon based on quality components that are selected based on the needs of the shooter makes sense if the assembler has at least a basic skill level. Someone who can't change their own oil, or who could never figure out any models that weren't "snap together" probably needs to pass and contact a dealer who will create a custom build for them.
As with any weapon, you want at least 500-1,000 rounds through it before you take it to a class. My guys average 1,500-2,000 rounds through an AR15 before they carry it on the street for duty use. That many rounds run hard through the weapon will break anything that was a borderline part, or at least thats been our experiences.
Thanks everyone!
Maybe I will turn a wrench on my next upper. I've been needing an excuse to get a 12.5 Noveske upper. Maybe I will settle on just the barrel and build it myself with the "good" parts I have.
Thanks everyone!
Maybe I will turn a wrench on my next upper. I've been needing an excuse to get a 12.5 Noveske upper. Maybe I will settle on just the barrel and build it myself with the "good" parts I have.
Please just make sure you have the correct tools available - e.g. receiver block, barrel vise block, good punches, barrel nut wrench, etc. It's fairly easy to torque an upper receiver out of true, since it's only made from aluminum. Please also make sure you know the tolerances for various fasteners - e.g. correct torque for barrel nut, for receiver extension castle nut, etc. Finally, please be aware that some parts should be staked - e.g. receiver extension castle nut, gas key.
If you're meticulous about aligning everything, torque to correct values, use the correct assembly products (e.g. moly grease), and apply correct technique with good tools, an AR assembled from quality parts should run very well. It's not rocket science, but it helps to have OCD... ;)
I don't think I've ever saved money by building my own. I don't do it because I'm on a budget or have limited funds. I build mine so that I can have the exact configuration that I want, the first time. In the end it always cost me more up front but then I don't have to dick with it any more.
I have a Snap-On torque wrench so, the barrel nut will be torqued to a reasonable value (plus or minus a ft-lb or so). I have brass punches so, that should limit any heavy handiness on my part. The one thing I'm missing right now is the upper receiver block. Anybody got a gently used one for sale for a good price on a new one? ;)
If I factor in tool expense and any value for my labor, it will be cheaper to buy direct from Noveske or a similar shop that turns out high quality gear.
I've gone down a similar path a time or two. The last example was for my .308 bolt gun. I started out with a Remington 700PSS. It's a good rifle but, a little rough around the edges. Do I send it off to GAP and let his guys (or a similar quality shop) work it over or commission a new one built exactly to my specs? I bought an FN A3G because I like the classic pre-64 Winchester action better, like McMillan stocks, and the barrels they use are real hummers. I saved about $1K going with a factory FN SPR rifle and I VERY HAPPY!
AR-15 uppers don't seem to be nearly as much effort as a .308 precision bolt gun but, they still have to be done right. ;)
What to do ... What to do ....
That will always be my advice to a new guy..... Make your first one a factory build and focus on your skill of learning it and using it....There would be less troubleshooting forums on the internet that way....;)[/QUOTE]
Then what would you talk about. We all have to start somewhere. Some of us prefer to build our own and learn from our mistakes. That's just the way some people are. Besides trouble shooting forums have help everyone, including you.
I haven't bought a complete AR yet, they've all been builds. I know I've shot a few times the FET I've avoided though in bulk ammo.
I haven't bought a complete AR yet, they've all been builds. I know I've shot a few times the FET I've avoided though in bulk ammo.
Yeah, but anymore that isn't much ammo..... :(
I like hunting down quality parts here and there. I have a franken gun or two from parts I ended up with for whatever reason. Normally I just use those as plinkers/blasters.
I think that "building" is a good lesson if nothing else. You learn how the gun goes together in a way that the guy that bought a complete rifle may not.
I am constantly amazed at the stoppages we see at our matches and the reaction from guys with NO idea how to (as Pat would say) un-**** their carbine. This ranges from simple type 1,2,3 stoppages to full on mechanical malfunctions.
AR15barrels
07-11-07, 11:20
I charge $25 to assemble an upper that does not need any machining.
I can also do things like pinning gas blocks and timing muzzle devices without the need for shims/washers or permanent attaching muzzle brakes.
It's almost not worth buying the tools to do it yourself, unless you were specifically wanting to buy the tools for future builds.
JohnJak
Besides trouble shooting forums have help everyone, including you.
Actually...no they have never helped me.....:p
My two factory AR's have been running for years..........
You see.. I spend my time learning to shoot them and less on how to tinker with them...;)
You see.. I spend my time learning to shoot them and less on how to tinker with them...;)
Are they mutually exclusive?
Joseywales
07-11-07, 20:23
I have built 6 of the 8 ARs that I have owned. My Colt and Bushmaster H-bars are 100% factory. All of my others are complete uppers with built up lowers. Most of the uppers have been altered by me. I have replaced the handguards with free-floats, changed the flash reducers, the bolts, latches, sights, ect.
If I had to do it all over again, I would just buy POF or LW rifles and customize the buttstocks. I had a chance to look at the POF and fire them. Sweetness is all I can say about them. If I could get the money out of my builds, I would sell the uppers and replace them with POF. The lower trigger group is awesome. LW is the only other piston AR I know of that is civilian available, other than FN and bushmaster.
Unfortunately, not too many of the piston guns appear to be able to get through a 3-day carbine class without crapping out.
I still say piston ARs are still too bleeding edge to be considered as viable.
Were I to do it all again I'd either buy a Colt 6920 and 6933, or (if they are ever produced) a Noveske N4 in 16" and 10.5", and be done with it.
AR15barrels
07-11-07, 22:55
Unfortunately, not too many of the piston guns appear to be able to get through a 3-day carbine class without crapping out.
I still say piston ARs are still too bleeding edge to be considered as viable.
Question for Pat Rogers if someone can drag him over here to this thread...
What parts are crapping out on the piston guns you see in your classes?
Quality parts and knowledge is key - otherwise you're better off sticking with factory guns IMHO. This is no different than coking a meal. If you have the knowledge and quality ingredients you'll do fine. If you skimp on either one, you'll likely be less than satisfied. My ARs are Frankenguns, built from quality parts and are run hard. They work very well as do some by others here that I know. But, for the average shooter, I'd recommend sticking to factory guns. Many may disagree with me and that's OK. Consider your ability, use and parts.
If you have a little mechanical ability at all, you can build an AR. The first AR I built was the first AR I shot. I took my time with the first one and learned all I could off forums like these. I did make a few little mistakes though. 1. My CMT carrier gas key was not staked properly so the key loosened after a couple hundred rounds. The gun never stopped working though, I was just cleaning the gun after shooting one day and decided to check the gas key. It was loose so I tightened it and staked it myself. Another thing I did wrong on the build was not tighten the barrel nut tight enough. It loosened after the first time out on the range. I noticed it during post firing cleaning inspection, I took the upper off and re-tightened a little bit tighter. I now have a feel for how tight they should be.
My advice, buy a quality barrel, i'd go with a chrome lined one. Quality upper reciever, bolt and carrier - I use LMT bolts and carrier now(they seem to put a little extra care into there stuff over CMT stuff). And get good mags, not the no name junk brands.
Alot of people say the AR is a complex rifle, I don't believe it. I think it is one of the most simple rifles built. I've built AK's and they are much more time consuming to put together then an AR. The AR is like putting together a Lego gun, I think I could put an AR together in an hour or less if I had to.
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