I'm Beginning to Wonder if I Have a Need for a Shotgun

[Jay Cunningham]

This is not intended to be a shit-stirring post. This is a post where I wonder aloud if I really have a need for the three shotguns that I own.

I own a 12 ga. Winchester Marine Defender model 1300, which is the first gun that I ever bought when I was 18 years old, oh so long ago. I literally can't remember the last time I shot it - maybe 4 years ago.

I own a Benelli Super 90 M1 that I think I shot a year and a half ago, maybe 32 rounds total. It is a wonderful gun, though the stock is a bit long for my taste.

Last but not least I acquired a Hans Vang/Remington 870 with most of the bells and whistles. I have yet put a single round through it.

Okay, so here's my dilemma: do I seek out and pay for training on how to fight with a shotgun (I know of several highly regarded instructors who teach shotgun)? Is it worth it in light of my focus on carbine and pistol training?

I am wondering if there is anything that one of these shottys will do that my carbine won't? Or if the approx. $2000 wrapped up in these 3 guns (not to mention 12 ga. ammo) would be better spent on additional training and ammo for the pistol and carbine?

I'd like to hear opinions from guys that have taken shotgun training and also guys that have experience re: carbine vs. shotgun.

[Robb Jensen]

Send the Benelli to me, I'll take good care of it !

Ned Christiansen can modify the stock to be about 1.5" shorter.

[rob_s]

As mentioned elsewhere, I have an old 870P police trade-in that has sat in the corner of my closet for the 10+ years that I've owned it. I have shot maybe 250 rounds through it total in that time. I had a Benelli M3 Super 90 at one time but sold it for a profit when I realized that the 870 sat in the corner for cheaper than the Benelli did.:D

Frankly, I don't "get" shotguns either. I have one because I'm supposed to, have considered getting the Vang treatment but never bothered. Since my local club can't seem to muster the interest in 3-gun there isn't much incentive for me, and I have NO interest in shooting IPSC 3-gun.

[Cesiumsponge]

It depends on what you intend to do with it. I'll concentrate on the home defense aspect of it. The carbine didn't seem to gain universal law enforcement acceptance until the infamous North Hollywood shootout, but it became popular for one single reason--armor.

Now it seems like EVERYONE NEEDS a carbine for a primary defensive weapon, but unless you plan on encountering North Hollywood, all those other non armored (ie 99.999%) situations were handled by shotguns before and I think shotguns are still relevant. They apply to many situations except the extreme end such as body armor and longer distances where the shotgun isn't designed to satisfy.

As a jack-of-all-trades firearm it is still very applicable in today's world in my opinion and I'm not some old fart that grew up with a wingmaster. I love my 870 as much as I love my carbines, even though it pummels my shoulder relentlessly :D

-use less lethal munitions for less lethal purposes
-birdshot for clays, skeet, waterfowl and similar
-buckshot for larger game or human threats
-slugs out to 100 yards or dangerous game or engaging targets further out. Very high knock-down power.
-flares for signalling
-OC/CS type rounds but very unlikely for everyday Joe to use.
-breaching, unlikely for everyday Joebut likely for law enforcement

I wouldn't depend on a shotgun outside 100 yards or even 50 yards but 99.99% of most home defense encounters are short distances on the order of a few yards.

-one hit with a 12ga 00 buckshot round is similar to a simultaneous 9 round burst of 9mm.
-one miss with a 12ga 00 buckshot round is 9 stray projectiles
-lead shotgun pellets penetrate less than bullets as they deform much easier, might be a good thing if you miss or want minimum penetration into environmental barriers
-slugs have a lot of mass and are hard to deflect, even through windshields and door panels.
-change munitions quickly to fit the situation
-reload single shells at a time into the chamber, can be useful (ie slug for longer range)
-you can't plug in a full, fresh mag like a box-fed rifle, tube magazine is limited in how many rounds it can carry (usually 5-8)
-I believe shotguns are still quieter to some degree than a high velocity rifle so you'll save your ears a little more if fired inside a home.

I have an AR15 and a Remington 870, both "tricked".

On camping in the Olympic National Forest here in Washington with critters and sharp teeth abounds, I took the Remington 870 after carrying an AR15 the first time around which I didn't feel the .223 would help me out too much if something big and brown came along.

On home defense, I keep the Remington 870 ready.
I also have a Saiga-12 which takes a 10-rnd box magazine...I personally think its superior to the older pump-action type shotguns but the DA will have a field day if I use something that evil on an innocent methhead breaking into my house.

Note I keep away from silly "arguments" about racking the slide and whatnot.

[Jay Cunningham]

As mentioned elsewhere, I have an old 870P police trade-in that has sat in the corner of my closet for the 10+ years that I've owned it. I have shot maybe 250 rounds through it total in that time. I had a Benelli M3 Super 90 at one time but sold it for a profit when I realized that the 870 sat in the corner for cheaper than the Benelli did.:D

Frankly, I don't "get" shotguns either. I have one because I'm supposed to, have considered getting the Vang treatment but never bothered. Since my local club can't seem to muster the interest in 3-gun there isn't much incentive for me, and I have NO interest in shooting IPSC 3-gun.

I think I "have one because I'm supposed to" as well... doesn't make much sense when I apply some reason, though. I don't shoot 3 gun either...

[Jay Cunningham]

-use less lethal munitions for less lethal purposes Not applicable to me.
-birdshot for clays, skeet, waterfowl and similar Not applicable to me.
-buckshot for larger game or human threats
-slugs out to 100 yards or dangerous game or engaging targets further out. Very high knock-down power.
-flares for signalling Not applicable to me.
-OC/CS type rounds but very unlikely for everyday Joe to use. Not applicable to me.
-breaching, unlikely for everyday Joebut likely for law enforcement Not applicable to me.

-one hit with a 12ga 00 buckshot round is similar to a simultaneous 9 round burst of 9mm. Not sure I agree.
-one miss with a 12ga 00 buckshot round is 9 stray projectiles
-lead shotgun pellets penetrate less than bullets as they deform much easier, might be a good thing if you miss or want minimum penetration into environmental barriers Not sure I agree.
-slugs have a lot of mass and are hard to deflect, even through windshields and door panels.
-change munitions quickly to fit the situation Not sure I agree.
-reload single shells at a time into the chamber, can be useful (ie slug for longer range)
-you can't plug in a full, fresh mag like a box-fed rifle, tube magazine is limited in how many rounds it can carry (usually 5-8)
-I believe shotguns are still quieter to some degree than a high velocity rifle so you'll save your ears a little more if fired inside a home.



There aren't many scenarios where I would be using a long gun, and of those scenarios I'd be hard-pressed to take a shotty over a 5.56mm carbine. With the carbine you get light weight, low recoil, accuracy, large ammunition capacity, ease of modification etc.

Slugs would be useful against cover, but more so than .308? I'm not sure.

[FJB]

Thekatar,
Take a Louis Awerbuck, Yavapai Firearms Academy, shotgun class first before you make your decision regarding whether to give up on shotguns.

http://www.yfainc.com/schedule.html

Louis' is to the tactical aspect of fighting with a shotgun as Pat Rogers is to fighting with a carbine. Then I'd tell you to train with Rob Haught to learn how to use the shotgun in a more technically proficient/effective/efficient manner as there are very few individuals as Rob who know how to run a shotgun, esp. an 870.

Once you have done that then make your final decision. I could argue the case for you to keep and train with "the Hammer of God", but training with Louis and/or Rob is the best method for understanding. I'd also only keep and train with your Vang 870, but that is me.

S/F

[Cesiumsponge]

Slugs would be useful against cover, but more so than .308? I'm not sure.

Probably not, but for your argument to work, you'd be arguing for carrying a much heavier .308 battle rifle like a FAL or similar, not a lighter 5.56mm carbine, unless you plan on toting them both which might be bulky. The shotgun can do both on one platform with slugs for high penetration and (relatively) longer distance shots to 100 yards and any number of buckshot or specialty rounds to fill other roles, which is the crux of arguing it's usefulness. The inherent flexibility of the shotgun makes it more easily adaptable than any singular rifle platform unless you're carrying multiple cartridge sizes and quick-change barrels, which would still take longer to adapt to a given situation inside 50-100 yards than a shotgun.

One worrisome thing is the M193 and M855 having insufficient velocity out of 16" carbine barrels to reliably fragment outside 100-150 yards according to some stuff I read. That isn't the case with 20" barreled rifles but I recall seeing several places (with results) showing lack of cannelure fracturing on those aforementioned rounds at longer distances with 16" carbines, which is a bad thing because most of the gruesome wound channels created by those two rounds were from fragmentation effects of the bullet turning a 180 due to an aft center of gravity and flying apart inside the cavity. Maybe that information I came across is outdated.

Remington 870's and Mossberg 500/590s are plenty customizable because of their inherent simplicity. You can also get into the shotgun game for a lot cheaper than an AR15...and those are just regular pump shotguns. Saigas are even more customizable, more fun, and more badass (but more expensive)

A lot of 3-gunners on the Saiga forums have cleaned up with the S12s over the other semi shotgun guys...I'd say it is the way to go in the future with shotguns if they don't attract the BATF and get a DD stamp. They take box magazines and you can empty a 10-rnd mag in 2 seconds, AND its manegable because its semi-auto which reduces your felt recoil, plus further aftermarket recoil reduction devices. The only thing semi-autos don't have on pump actions is they can't cycle on a lot of that oddball ammo stuff which negates their flexibility in exchange for high cyclical rates and in the case of Saigas, fast reloads.

http://www.impulselabs.org/Personal/Eric/Gun/Saiga12.jpg

I'm not in your shoes so I can't say what kind of scenario you'd likely find yourself in so I won't speculate or make assumptions. However, myself, and I suspect many other people in most home invasion scenarios, don't necessarily need 30 round mags, extra loud muzzle reports in confined spaces, featherweight firearms (unless you plan for a long standoff) or 1" MOA accuracy in engagements in 20 foot hallways.

I'd WOULD choose a carbine as a vehicle weapon because the engagement ring is that much larger and unpredictable outside the confines of a building. If something goes down and you're in your automobile, it could be the car next to you or the storefront 150 yards up the intersection.

I think many people today view shotguns as "old timey", but they're very flexible and by no means obsolete, and managed to evolve along with other military arms, otherwise you wouldn't see them around or the type of products developed for them. I don't favor a carbine over shotguns in general. I just feel each has it's place and in my case, I'd rather tote a shotgun at home.

[f.2]

A shotgun, imHo, serves its purpose by being there. Not in your safe, but there, strategically located where you can get to it. Don't have time to spin your safe dial to get at your AR? Your sg is there. Don't want your safe to be a revolving door with your nightstand hg? Your sg is there.

[PalmerB]

The shotgun serves one purpose to me. If I did not have it, I would be thinking I need to go buy a shotgun.

[carshooter]

As a reformed shotgun junkie, I freely admit that there's not much that I can do defensively with a shotgun that I couldn't do faster and more accurately with a carbine.

However, a shotgun is still my primary home defense long gun.

I have four firearms that are not stored in a safe. My primary CCW, my "back up" or smaller CCW, an AR15 that's locked in my master bedroom, and an 870 that's stored "cruiser ready" in my master bedroom closet.

I don't want to touch an unsuppressed AR off in my house unless I really, really have to.

[abnk]

...

I don't want to touch an unsuppressed AR off in my house unless I really, really have to.

Wouldn't a shotgun be just as loud?

[carshooter]

I've never seen decibel ratings for both, but my subjective opinion is that a 14.5 or 16" AR is MUCH more uncomfortable to my unprotected ears than an 18" shotgun.

I've fired both without hearing protection, and an AR seems much, much, much louder.

*Well, I stand corrected. I just googled the noise level, and the google results state that 223 is 155 decibels. (although no barrel length is listed) An 18" 12ga is listed at 161.

I still stand by my statement that subjectively, I find a shotgun less painful than a 223 carbine, but now maybe I need to rethink my "plan"

[rhino]

Thekatar,
Take a Louis Awerbuck, Yavapai Firearms Academy, shotgun class first before you make your decision regarding whether to give up on shotguns.

http://www.yfainc.com/schedule.html


That's an excellent recommendation.

There are two reasons why I own a shotgun. One is to shoot 3-gun and practical shotgun matches. Everyone should try it if they have not. It's my least favorite gun to shoot, but it's still fun.

My Remington 1100 has the short Speedfeed IV-S stock with the flat plastic baseplate. So my LOP is about twelve inches. The tradeoff is that I don't have a recoil pad of any kind, which is less of a problem with an 1100. That might hurt a lot more with your Benelli M1S90.

The other is because it seems kind of un-American to not have a 12ga of some kind, whether it's a Benelli race gun, a box stock 870 or your grandpappy's old side-by-side.

[Harv]

I have a 870(cause your suppose to have one) and an Benelli SBE for Pheasants/Upland game.

Other then that.. I don't have much use for Shotguns.. I can run them just fine..I have a few years of Sporting clays under me...:) I just don't like them as much as my AR.

The Shotgun is not my "go to" gun.

[Patrick Aherne]

A shotgun, rather than being a jack of all trades as it is usually sold, is actually a very specialized weapon that takes practice and training to use. More training and practice, I believe, than the amount required to run a carbine effectively. That said, a Benelli M1S90 is the only loaded long gun in my house.

[nationwide]

My buddy and I discussed this at length a year or so ago...

He was Active Duty USCG on a unit that did lots of boardings and harbor security type stuff... and I have a background in Law Enforcement.

Based on the performance of 5.56 FMJ ammo, what we know today about the truth of "over penetration", ergonomics, and accessories such as weapon lights and optics, we concluded, for ourselves, the shotgun served no real purpose save harvesting winged game.

Of course, that's our opinions... just a couple of dudes. Gotta roll with what works for you.

FWIW, I'll take a 12 gauge pump gun over my Full Auto UZI for home defense 7 days a week! ;)

[Lumpy196]

I LIKE shooting shotguns in sporting and competition roles.

However, the fact remains, there are few serious applications where it would be my weapon of choice outside some VERY specialized uses.

[olds442tyguy]

My 870 is a dust collector. 00B and slugs are pricey for plinking at the range, I have no practical use for it, and it's just not that fun to shoot for me. Right now it's completely disassembled and stripped waiting for me to lay some Cerakote on it. I haven't really cared enough to get up the motivation to finish it, and when I do I'll probably just sell it for pocket change.

That said, I'd love to get a Saiga 12. :D In fact, seeing as I have no real use for a shotgun (especially a pump), I still kick myself in the bum for having not gotten a Saiga at the time instead.