The 40 S&W and the 135 Gr, a better idea?

[Runningman]

The 40 S&W 135 Gr, a better idea? Than say a 180 Gr or a 165 Gr. What is your opinion?

[deuce9166]

I don't know if it is better, because I'm not sure what you plan to do with it, but I have shot a limited number of Cor-Bon 135 grain, and it feels like it is tearing the gun apart. Very hard hitting and hard shooting stuff. It doesn't feel like your shooting the same gun.

[.45fmjoe]

There are two completely different schools of thought, with probably an equal number of proponents to each. Some like lighter and faster, some like heavier and slower. Personally, I generally shoot heavier bullets so I would go with the 180gr. The exception for me is 9mm hollowpoints, I go with 124 gr. +P.

[.45fmjoe]

I don't know if it is better, because I'm not sure what you plan to do with it, but I have shot a limited number of Cor-Bon 135 grain, and it feels like it is tearing the gun apart. Very hard hitting and hard shooting stuff. It doesn't feel like your shooting the same gun.

I'm guessing for carry since I don't know of any 135gr or 165gr. FMJ loads, though I could be way off since I don't care at all about the bastard .40 S&W cartridge. I shoot the real .40 semi-auto cartridge. ;)

[deuce9166]

Your off, I shoot 165 gr. fmj all the time. For people I would carry 180 grain pills.

[Entropy]

The 40 S&W 135 Gr, a better idea? Than say a 180 Gr or a 165 Gr. What is your opinion?

Better for what?

Personally, I think the 135gr in .40 is a terrible idea. Wound channel is the only reliable method of inflicting damage on somebody, and the 135gr load is not as good as the heavier loadings in penetration. Why?....because the bullet is too short......or, that it has a very low sectional density. In layman's terms, SD is the mass concentration over a given area. A 9mm 135gr bullet has its mass concentrated over a smaller area and will penetrate more reliably than a .40 in 135gr. In ballistic gel, typical .40S&W 135gr JHPs only penetrate to about 9" which is well below the mininum penetration depth requirement of 12" by the FBI. Adequate penetration is the key component in killing/stopping someone.....followed by hole size. The .40 135gr is similar in SD to the 90gr .380 which fails at every level of the FBI protocol tests.

The only .40S&W loads I would consider would be grain weights between 155gr-180gr. Unless it is the 140gr solid copper bullets which are a different story. My personal favorite is the 165gr Gold Dot at 1150fps. It makes for a great all around police load.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I have a weird idea...

Lets look at the FBI test data for a given round, your shot to shot times, and accuracy in your gun with your sights.

That way we can make choices based on objective performance criteria like what the bullet does when it hits stuff, how fast you can shoot it, and how well you place it on target.

I know...odd...but their it is.

[El Cid]

FWIW, Our agency switched last year to the 180gr, in place of the 165. I know part of the reason was the heavier bullet being better at punching through automobile glass. From behind the gun I haven't noticed a difference and don't know any others who have either. Our 165's were Gold Dots and the 180s are Winchester (PDX1 I believe is the public sale nomenclature).

[The_Biased_Observer]

My opinion is that everybody here is wasting their time arguing over a weight when bullet type and construction are probably more important.

Pick a bullet first.

[Entropy]

My opinion is that everybody here is wasting their time arguing over a weight when bullet type and construction are probably more important.

Pick a bullet first.

Good point. The design makes a huge difference. However, even the best modern bullet designs cannot bring the 135gr .40 up to acceptable performance levels in the FBI protocols. The top manufacturers such as Winchester, Federal, and Speer have taken 135gr out of their product line-ups simply because it cannot perform well enough. The last 135gr contract for the govt I know of was for CBP checkpoint personel, but that ammo has been set aside for training and they have jumped onto the BP contract for Federal 180gr loads for duty use.

[Mjolnir]

Keep in mind you're not likely to be shooting thru car doors; "overpenetation" can cause HUGE issues.

Usually, the lighter, faster bullets of a given construction perform "better" when shooting through denim, goose down, etc. They tend to plug with fabric LESS frequently than the heavier stuff.

Just my anecdotal experiences and observations.

P.S.

I recommend 165 grain. Splits the difference.

[Fail-Safe]

A 135gr JHP in .40S&W is NEVER a good idea.

Someone said there are two schools of though on bullets, lighter and faster or heavier and slower. There is a third school of thought. Its called the "what works" crowd. I am a part of that crowd. In this crowd we dont discriminate. We look at what bullets do in calibrated ballistic gelatin, we see what bullets do against common intermediate, and then the results in labs are compared to what happens on the street. We desire a deep penetrating and robust expanding round even after defeating the common intermediate barriers. To achieve this we need a well designed bullet, typically in a heavier weight, but not always.:)

When all things come together, this is the list by which you should choose your defensive round.

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

After you choose one, buy a bunch, make sure it goes bang in your gun when you pull the trigger, and practice like your life depends on it.....because it does.

[Entropy]

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)


It's a great list, but Dr. Roberts has said himself that there are a number of other brands of ammo and grain weights that pass FBI protocols, but they just weren't tested by Doc's group. If a particular ammo type is not on the list, that does not mean that it would not pass the tests.......just that it may not have been tested.

I say, look at the trend. For example, if the 155gr and 180gr Gold Dot do well, then you can make the educated guess that the 165gr load will also do well.

That is a great benefit to the .40S&W. It does well in testing with a wide range of bullet designs and grain weights. However, 135gr would not be one of them.

[jdub75]

A bunch of 'over run' 135 grain 40 just popped up on a few different websites (ammoman.com being one, can't recall the other). Both sites said this is overrun from DHS & ICE contract ammo.
I am not making any claim to knowing the better grain bullet for SD, but would 2 big gov agencies use it if it didn't pass the muster?

I am really tempted to get some of this stuff, as my stockpile of SD ammo is down to 50 rounds or so, and I wouldn't mind getting a deal on some premium stuff.

link: http://ammoman.com/index.htm

Any 'real' data/info appreciated!

[kjdoski]

I am not making any claim to knowing the better grain bullet for SD, but would 2 big gov agencies use it if it didn't pass the muster?

I hate to be a downer about this, but I know of agencies still issuing the equivalent of Federal 9MS "Match" JHP or old school standard pressure Silvertips for 9mms. I'd be VERY leery of assuming that any "government issued" ammunition is by any means top of the line...

Regards,

Kevin

[Entropy]

A bunch of 'over run' 135 grain 40 just popped up on a few different websites (ammoman.com being one, can't recall the other). Both sites said this is overrun from DHS & ICE contract ammo.
I am not making any claim to knowing the better grain bullet for SD, but would 2 big gov agencies use it if it didn't pass the muster?


I can tell you from first hand experience that they are NOT happy with getting the 135gr ammo. The decision by CBP and ICE to go to 135gr was an upper management decision based on liability concerns with over penetration. In the case of CBP, it was to be primarily used by their checkpoint officers that worked in highly congested areas with great risk of collateral damage. Border Patrol switched from the 155gr, to 180gr Federal duty load in December of 2009. Since then, I have worked with both CBP and ICE shooting instructors, and they are now piggybacking onto the BP contract so that they do not have to use the 135gr load. You have remember, a lot of independent Federal agencies are kinda screwed up in their procurement decisions. However, agencies like DEA, ATF, DOI, and others that centralize their procurement through FLETC or Quantico generally have more research behind their equipment adoption.

[M4arc]

I don't know anything about this ammo but I found a good deal on some Winchester 135gr 40 S&W so I figured I'd try it. If it's not any good or I don't like the way it shoots in my G23 I'm not out much because I got it for the same price as a box of WWB from Wally World.

[Sensei]

I say, look at the trend. For example, if the 155gr and 180gr Gold Dot do well, then you can make the educated guess that the 165gr load will also do well.

Unfortunately, this is not always the case. For example, the Speer 155 and 180 grain .40SW Gold Dot bullets do well, but the 165 grain was not a consistent performer through denim and other barriers. Another example is the Speer 200 grain +P bullet in .45 ACP. It did not do well through barriers despite acceptable performance in the 230 and 185 (to a lesser extent) grain weights.

The best advice is to stick to the list of acceptable duty loads created by Dr. Roberts.

[Entropy]

Unfortunately, this is not always the case. For example, the Speer 155 and 180 grain .40SW Gold Dot bullets do well, but the 165 grain was not a consistent performer through denim and other barriers.

This was corrected by Speer in 2006. Doc's testings on the chart are older. APD tested several loads for their duty load adoption in 2007 and determined that the 165gr was the best all around police load and they adopted it. They performed proper FBI protocol tests in their determination along with some other tests.

Once again, as Doc has clearly said himself, just because a particular load is not on the list, does NOT mean that it is a failed load. Here's a testing of the 165gr load by Dr. Roberts in 2009 which does just fine:

.40 S&W Speer 155 gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=1166 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal= 9.5cm@ 585fps
BG: pen=13.2", RD=0.64", RL=0.32", RW=155.5 gr
4LD: pen=16.0", RD=0.60", RL=0.44", RW=155.3gr

.40 S&W Speer 165 gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=1092 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal=10cm@578fps
BG: pen=15.0" RD=0.63", RL=0.37", RW=165.2gr
4LD: pen=16.5", RD=0.55", RL=0.51", RW=165.4gr

.40 S&W Speer 180gr Gold Dot JHP; ave vel=986 fps (S&W 4006); gel cal=10cm@581fps
BG: pen=15.5" RD=0.62", RL=0.40", RW=180.3gr
4LD: pen=16.8" RD=0.53", RL=0.55", RW=180.4gr

He has also mentioned several other loads in 9mm that meet all of the FBI protocol standards such as the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot, but they just were not put down on the chart.

[1_click_off]

Can someone post a link to Doc's chart. I am searching for it, but can't find. Also, if we have a list of ammo that passed the test, is there a list of ammo that failed the test?

[Entropy]

Can someone post a link to Doc's chart. I am searching for it, but can't find. Also, if we have a list of ammo that passed the test, is there a list of ammo that failed the test?

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

There is no list of loads that failed. This is just a list of particular loads that were tested and passed in 2005(may have been 2006). There is a lot of stuff on the market that was not tested, and there are loads that failed Dr. Robert's testing, but with some minor tweaks have passed in recent testing. Dr. Roberts has also mentioned that he has spoken to manufacturers and with all of their experiences that .40S&W still has the best overall performance and potential for a heavy use pistol caliber over the other service calibers.

There are still a lot of unknowns, but in my opinion any modern JHP loading with a minimum sectional density rating between .135-.140(optimal is closer to .140) will do well provided that it is manufactured by the big four.......Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester. Here's some more information on sectional density:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm

The big four do their own ballistic gel testing, and advertise their ammunition performance to many LE agencies. So they have a good standard in performance and quality.

[TXLowflyer]

I have a friend down south who has used this round in a Glock 22 in on duty shootings with no problems.
Put both perps down fast.

These were CQB situations.

Latter we tried the 135 gr round against some different vehicles. Fragmented in the front windshield, was not reliable at all. They now use 180 gr Gold Dot.

[mpom]

Fail-Safe:

Was the order in the list based on bullet weight or performance?

Thanks,
Mark