View Full Version : Vickers Tactical 1911 Operators Class Pictures & Review Thread
Please post any pictures & reviews in this thead.
So far, everybody I've talked to loved the class.
SHAFT (Matt E.) posted this over on 1911 forum.
"Holy Crap!!!!
We finished the class yesterday. It should have been called the "everything you EVER wanted to know about the 1911 (and maybe more)" class.
I have eluded before about what Lav "really thinks" about the 1911. (This if VERY contrary to what you would expect his opinion to be, as I've mentiond before) This time we got both barrels/ the whole 9 yards.
My gun ran fine, but it always has (some were not as luckey). This was enhanced buy the "personal atention" he gave to all the pistols. This alone was worth the price of admiton, the 10 hour drive, and the price of the ammo that was shot. (of course, my ammo was provided by, bob-left-his-ammo-at-my-house.org, so it was not an issue )
As far as the "shooting" portion of the class, I can describe that with one word..."humbling"...
If you think you can shoot well 'cause you have been to a bunch of schools besides his, he may (rather early in the game) show you you have been giving yourself too much credit!
When giving his sumation of the class, at the end of the last day, he stated "I will not give you what you want...I will give you what you need."
Good golly, if that was not the truth!!! I'm sure the other guys will chime in, right now my head is still spinning...
Thanks to VA-Dinger for setting this up and "haveing my back", Larry Vickers for being...well...Larry Vickers, and to his "not as famous, but just as skilled" AI whome I'll just call "Dude". He gets more credit then he will ever recive.
When is the "Glock" or "M&P" Operators class?? I'm gasing up the truck, time now!!!"
__________________
I didn't see any cameras.
It was a great class. Pistol skills are a diminishable resource. They are not like riding a bike. When you don't shoot for 1-1.5 months, you will look like ass.
So there I was, looking like an ass.......which ism of course, nothing new. :p :p :p
Papershooter
07-09-07, 17:15
Larry's class was one of the best i've ever attended .
Trigger control , shooting drills , field stripping and maintenance , couldn't ask for much more in two days.
I had a camera but never got a chance to use it , to bad though it probably would of out shot my Kimber ! lol
As Larry would say , Was that your Kimber Choking and Puking again! lmao
Peacekeeper1408
07-09-07, 17:19
I had a camera, but I didn't get a chance to use it unfortunately. Thanks to VA_Dinger for making this possible. This was by far the very best training I have ever had period. I can't wait for more.
When is the "Glock" or "M&P" Operators class?? I'm gasing up the truck, time now!!!
Now THAT would snag my attention... ;)
When looking at and going over some if the classes 1911's, what were some of the problems he was pointing out, and what were the remedies he might have suggested. Did he have one of his Vickers Tactical 1911's with him there. Thanks alot.
I don't think a single picture was taken.
The VT 1911 class was aimed at the “enthusiast” market that LAV has asserted time and time again is the remaining user of said weapon. Time and time again he said it: we are living in a Glock world, while everyone else sits around playing catch up. I admire the guts it took to say that in front of paying customers that would no doubt love to hear that the 1911, when properly assembled, is still a viable choice for serious fighting. Round count for the class ended up low (~350) due to the intense heat, the amount of classroom instruction (a first for the VT classes I have attended, but a must in this class), and the simple fact that some drills don’t require lots of rounds downrange. LAV expanded on his standard “Ball and Dummy” drill, adding two new facets: a timed version and a command fire version, both of which brought more versions of the El Snatcho virus to the surface.
The first day found most of the morning spent on drills aimed at improving trigger control (read: the 3 versions of Ball and Dummy). After lunch the class was given the opportunity to shoot both the HK 45 and S&W M&P 45 as well as hear LAVs thoughts on each. The remainder of the day focused on manipulating the gun, reloading techniques and such. Basically a shortened version of what you’d get in the normal VT Pistol/Carbine class. I’ve noticed that this is par for the course for Larry’s classes where he doesn’t have 3 days to really drill into you his methodology. This, the AK class and the Low Light classes all featured shortened versions of the VT message boiled down to it’s most essential: trigger control is the key to accurate shooting. Accurate shooting is good because it produces vital zone hits that stop the fight. I think this is a good thing. It brings the heart of the matter to the surface as quickly as possible for the people who don’t have the benefit of a full 3 or 5 day class. Having said that, I still think that you’re putting yourself at a major disadvantage by going to a “specialty” class before having had any “basic” class. Time and schedule doesn’t always permit as we all know, but with the abbreviated format of the shorter specialty classes, I think some of the message and a lot of the fine points get lost in the time it takes to effectively cover the main message.
The real meat of this particular course was the 4 hours or so of classroom instruction on the 1911 on day 2. Larry took the entire class through a detail strip of a 1911 giving us the main points to look for wear, lots of items of note, tweaks on parts for enhanced reliability as well as fixes for common problems. Larry said it and I believe it: now we have the info we need to diagnose some common 1911 problems, as well as info on how to fix it without a trip to a gunsmith. My 1911 has seen many thousands of rounds by this point, and I was sure it was starting to get worn. Sure enough, 3 or 4 problem areas popped up on my gun, most of which were tweaked on site. The subsequent trip to the range proved the efficacy of said tweaks, though I was thisclose to getting steamed, as I started the morning with a gun that worked and after lunch my gun choked on 3 of the first 4 rounds fired! A quick tweak on the extractor (not by me) got me going again and no malfs were seen the remainder of the day (save for one hard primer that popped up in the middle of the Humbler!).
Did I mention we shot the Humbler? Yes, at JV range, but it still sucks. The best thing about that drill, I think, is when it’s over. Personally, regardless of how I score on it, I feel like a soup sandwich by the end of it.
Equipment check:
I’d put the average cost of the gun used in this class in the $1700 range. I saw Kimbers, Springfield Armory stuff, at least one Wilson, Baers, and a custom gun or two. Larry was (of course) shooting a Nighthawk Vickers gun. At least one other Vickers gun was present (a loaner from Larry to one of the guys in the class). Due to the fact that we spent NO time on malfunction drills, I’d say we saw remarkably few malfs throughout the class, save for one problem pistol that will likely be retired in favor of a Glock 19 by the time I post this. I wanted to ask how many people were running guns that were mechanically “as delivered” from the factory (allowing for changes in grips or sights), but never got the chance.
On the gunsmithing portion: this was the reason I took the class. I asked Chris, who has watched those AGI 1911 ‘smithing videos a time or two, how much of the stuff Larry talked about was in the videos. He said roughly half of the stuff Larry covered was in there, meaning roughly two hours worth of instruction and tips were not the basic “Hey file this down to make it fit” type of info. Again, I’m quite confident I got my money’s worth. I’d be interested to take a similar class for a Glock or and M&P sometime down the road. But can we do it when it’s a bit cooler? :D
Many thanks to Paul, Larry, D and to the South Hill Police Department for allowing us to use their AIR CONDITIONED facility for the detail strip. I'm sure that saved many a recoil spring plug from being shot off a bench.
ETA other threads discussing the class:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=50341&an=0&page=0#50341
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=174213
Great review, guys.
I really wish I had been there.
My sole 1911, a Kimber Warrior, is still at the gunsmith being made to work as it should have straight from the factory and having some of the MIM parts replaced with better ones. If I whined anymore about it, Pat Rogers would order a vagisil airstrike on my position.
Great reports subzero and SHAFT, thanks.
I wanted to ask how many people were running guns that were mechanically “as delivered” from the factory (allowing for changes in grips or sights), but never got the chance.
The Warrior I was shooting is "as delivered" from Kimber - including all the MIM parts. :eek:
Well, not NOW -- it has Vickers Tactical custom work on it NOW. :p :p :p :p
Why don't you drip some lemon juice on my papercuts while you are at it :)
My 1911 has seen many thousands of rounds by this point, and I was sure it was starting to get worn. Sure enough, 3 or 4 problem areas popped up on my gun, most of which were tweaked on site. The subsequent trip to the range proved the efficacy of said tweaks, though I was thisclose to getting steamed, as I started the morning with a gun that worked and after lunch my gun choked on 3 of the first 4 rounds fired! A quick tweak on the extractor (not by me) got me going again and no malfs were seen the remainder of the day (save for one hard primer that popped up in the middle of the Humbler!).
subzero,
You've got to remember that your gun choked on a test designed to show extractor weaknesses that would not show up under standard shooting. That demon was hiding in your extractor the whole time but shooting it without a mag in the gun let it been seen.
Guys, it was a great class and LAV and I really enjoyed it.
Matt Edwards
07-10-07, 08:37
My Wilson CQB was as deliverd. It keeps chugging along. Round for round, it is the most reliable pistol I've ever owned.
I'll admit, although I dig 1911s, if I had some of the issues that some others had (even though they can be fixed) I would not be a 1911 guy any more. I though some one was issueing M-9s to some guys!;)
Very interesting class. I agree that it was somewhat of a humbling experience. I was able to determine quite easily "What I did not know vs. what I thought I knew" I will add some of the drills to my training. No malfunctions with my pistol, although we did not put a high round count down range. It was more Quality vs. Quantity in regard to round count. The class room exercise was good and many if not all received some hands on by Larry. Prior to this class I had never fired my pistol beyond 25 yds. so the backup drill on the steel was an eyeopener. I was comforted in the fact that I could actually hit the steel at 50 yards and out. I will be taking additional pistol classes and will be discriminating on selecting the instructors. I wish the class had been longer. Lots packed together in a couple of days.
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-10-07, 11:28
I have a kimber warrior and it went back to the factory 6 times within the first year of owning it: loose plunger tube, bent thumb safety, worn kimpro finish after 150 rnds and no holster use. Sights were off - 3 inches high and 3 inches right at 25 yards and needed to be changed. The slide and reciever finish were miss matched untill I realized I knew someone at the factory, who took charge of my gun and got it squared away. After about 800 rounds I had problems with failure to feeds and the gun went back 2 times for that, my contact was able to fix as well. The word from inside the factory is low or no quality control.
Does larry have any more 1911 classes planned for 2007 or 2008? I'd love to make it too one.
Does larry have any more 1911 classes planned for 2007 or 2008? I'd love to make it too one.
This is now a standard Vickers Tactical class so we will hold at least one (probably more) every year at the South Hill range. You can also host one yourself if you have access to the range facilities.
Standard VT classes;
Pistol I
Pistol II
Pistol III
Carbine I
Carbine II
Carbine III
2-day pistol/carbine
3-day pistol/carbine
Ken Hackathorn/Larry Vickers Low Light
AK rifle specific class
1911 handgun specific class
Battle rifle specific class.
There are also 3, 4, and 5 day classes available in many of these formats.
http://www.vickerstactical.com/training/courses.htm
I have a kimber warrior and it went back to the factory 6 times within the first year of owning it: loose plunger tube, bent thumb safety, worn kimpro finish after 150 rnds and no holster use. Sights were off - 3 inches high and 3 inches right at 25 yards and needed to be changed. The slide and reciever finish were miss matched untill I realized I knew someone at the factory, who took charge of my gun and got it squared away. After about 800 rounds I had problems with failure to feeds and the gun went back 2 times for that, my contact was able to fix as well. The word from inside the factory is low or no quality control.
...and based on what we were told during this class, "Expect to buy a 1911, and send it off to a 'smith for work, since no place producing 1911's is doing everything 'right'...."
I've gotten to the point where I just assume that any gun I buy will need to be sent somewhere to be customized for me in some fashion.
Luckily, I can do most of my own AR work. Now, I might start doing my own 1911 work too.....:eek: :eek:
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-10-07, 16:41
Thanks dinger. I dont have access to facilities, but look forward to the next one you schedule
subzero,
You've got to remember that your gun choked on a test designed to show extractor weaknesses that would not show up under standard shooting. That demon was hiding in your extractor the whole time but shooting it without a mag in the gun let it been seen.
Guys, it was a great class and LAV and I really enjoyed it.
Excellent point, thanks for saying it.
I wonder how many in the class realized that they are NOT "enthusiast's" of the 1911?
C4
What was he saying about the 1911 and using it as a fighting gun.
Matt Edwards
07-10-07, 21:17
I have NEVER really been an "entusiest". I got one 'cause I though double action was too hard to use well and I USE to think the Glock was dangerous because it "does not have a sefety". (both of those opinions have changed since I've actualy started to TRAIN instead of just "shooting".) the first time I use a 1911 with any seriousness was about 4 (?) years ago. I took a carbine/pistol course at MISS and it became obvious that the controls were alot like my duty weapon at the time (the carbine). That and the fact that it was easy to use kinda sold me. Since I shot it more then anything else, I guess I became a "1911 guy."
Lately I've been devoting about half my time to the "girl gun" (glock 19).
I HAVE found that I have been "padding" my 1911 opinion however. Now I have some good drills to try and figure out what I TRULY shoot better (faster/more accuratly).
Like meny weapons I have owned in the past, If I identify one has advantages over the other, the "other" goes to the back of the line.(heck, I was a "revolver guy for a while. I don't own one now).
When I first talked to Lav a couple years ago, I WAS surprised as to what his real opinion was. That is why I took this class.
I will say, that if ANY of my 1911s behaved like some I saw at this course, I would not own one... I guess I've been lucky with my current 1911 choice.
Thanks to:
Larry Vickers
David P.
VA_Dinger
&
The South Hill PD for use of their upstairs meeting room.
I really enjoyed the class and it honestly motivated me to get out and shoot at least once a week, whether I have time, OR NOT.
I hate taking a full day to get "warmed up"....
Am i reading things wrong, is he not recommending the 1911 for hard use. I just blew 4000.00 on one of his Vickers Tactical 1911's, here is a quote from his site....."This is the best serious use custom 1911 pistol made by anyone at any price". Just looking for some clarification, thanks alot .
Am i reading things wrong, is he not recommending the 1911 for hard use. I just blew 4000.00 on one of his Vickers Tactical 1911's, here is a quote from his site....."This is the best serious use custom 1911 pistol made by anyone at any price". Just looking for some clarification, thanks alot .
The 1911 is "the finest CQB HG made." It is also "the king of feedway stoppages." You should also be an "enthusiast" if your going to run a 1911. If your not, then you should NOT own a 1911.
So the answer to your question is that LAV is NOT recommending the 1911 to anyone that is NOT an "enthusiast."
C4
Jay Cunningham
07-11-07, 10:43
If you spend $4000 on a handgun, I'd hope that you are an "enthusiast" - either that, or get "enthusiastic" real quick.
The 1911 is "the finest CQB HG made." It is also "the king of feedway stoppages." You should also be an "enthusiast" if your going to run a 1911. If your not, then you should NOT own a 1911.
So the answer to your question is that LAV is NOT recommending the 1911 to anyone that is NOT an "enthusiast."
C4
And the translation to that is that you need to be aware of the idiosyncrasies of the 1911 platform and know what to look for and how to deal with the potential problems associated with it. It takes more to keep a 1911 up and running then it does a Glock (stating the obvious) so the guy carrying the 1911 has to be willing and able to put forth the effort to get the most out of the system.
Readers Digest Answer;
1911’s requires more effort from the end user to run properly over the long haul. They need to be kept reasonably clean, very well lubricated, periodic maintenance (Spring changing, ETC.), and most likely some gunsmithing right off the bat to run reliably through high round counts. Not to mention some can be finicky with certain magazine & ammo combinations.
This is substantially more work than Glock, S&W, Sig, ETC owners have to go through.
All Larry is saying is that before you go through all of this you had better “love” the 1911 design and be enthusiastic about it. Thus you will be better motivated to keep on top of your pistols many needs. If not - you are asking for trouble. It should be a "labor of love" so to speak.
A properly tuned and maintained 1911 has many advantages for the trained & skilled shooter, but those advantages come at a cost.
Disclaimer: This did not come from me. I’m just the parrot repeating what I’ve been taught by LAV, Dave P., and a few others.
Ok great, i appreciate your responses and realize that. I figured i must have been taking things the wrong and was wanting some clarification. Thanks alot.
"If you're going to treat your handgun like you treat a lawn mower, buy a glock". That didn't come from me either, I'm quoting a great American :)
Matt Edwards
07-11-07, 15:27
"The 1911 is the most "shootable" pistol availible. It has features and advantages NO OTHER hand gun has." (peraphraseing Larry's opening comment from the course)
"If you treat your pistol like you treat your lawnmower, get a Glock." KH
IF you stuff these two ideas togther, you got it...
Matt
Thanks again for the clarification gang. I was curious when people wrote that they were surprised at Larry's comments on the 1911 at the course, without stating what they were. So it had me real curious, your replies are obvious points about someone who chooses the 1911 format and maintianing it, thanks again.
Larry Vickers
07-11-07, 20:51
Gents-
I would comment but former students of mine have chimed in and summed up the situation perfectly - well done
And that makes me feel good because obviously some people are listening
Cheers
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Wayne Dobbs
07-12-07, 09:25
During classes I've taught over the years (mostly LE) I said that a 1911 duty gun was like having a smokin' hot, high maintenance blonde or redhead girlfriend/wife. You better know exactly what she likes and when and how she likes it. If you do, you're a very happy camper....if you don't take care of business, you're a very UNhappy camper!
And that's coming from somebody who's had their life saved by a 1911, but I wouldn't recommend it for the average gun toter and non dedicated person.
the1911fan
07-12-07, 12:15
The 1911 is "the finest CQB HG made." It is also "the king of feedway stoppages." You should also be an "enthusiast" if your going to run a 1911. If your not, then you should NOT own a 1911.
So the answer to your question is that LAV is NOT recommending the 1911 to anyone that is NOT an "enthusiast."
C4
+100 if said 1911 is out in the elements constantly. I've had officers shoot their glock 19 all year nary a cleaning (1.5-2K rounds), they might wipe down the exterior w/ silicone cloth ...carry it all year in all weather and yeah it's dirty at years end but it goes bang with amazing consistency even after that type of abuse.
Sounds like an excellent class and hopefully there will be one (or a glock one) in Ohio sometime next year
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-12-07, 23:27
Any tips on what he thought was the best all-around setup for a duty 1911?:)
What were his big no-go mods?
Peacekeeper1408
07-13-07, 16:16
Big no-go is full length guide rod. Try to get by without an ambi safety unless you just have to have it.
Nathan_Bell
07-13-07, 16:23
Big no-go is full length guide rod. Try to get by without an ambi safety unless you just have to have it.
Why no full length guide rod? It seems that many guns are avaialble with that now.
Matt Edwards
07-13-07, 18:05
It does nothing but add weight and make the gun harder to take apart. It has an added bonus (with out one) as an alternate TTP to rack the slide.
John_Wayne777
07-14-07, 16:21
Sounds like a really fun class.....Makes me kind of sad that I missed it.
Alas! If only I could afford to take more of them....
FYI - The Backyard Outfitters / Woolrich Elite / Vickers Tactical special offer order forms are being sent out tonight/tomorrow morning to everybody who attended the 1911 class. Please let me know if you did not receive it by tomorrow afternoon.
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-17-07, 09:39
I just read an article on another forum that said larry uses a cp tuff buffer on all his 1911's. Why does larry use them? Pros/cons? Where can you get them?
That same thread that you read about the shokbuff also went on to explain why. If one shoot as much rounds through their 1911s as LAV and his former coworkers, one should try his best to save one's gun from excessive battering. We're not talking about 50 rounds a year, we're talking about thousand of rounds a month. He doesn't force his opinion on the user, take his recommendation if one chooses, leave it if it doesn't work for you.
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-17-07, 10:32
Thanks Sam, I was just breezing through it and didn't read the whole thread. which buffer does LAV reccomend? Where can I get one?
Thanks Sam, I was just breezing through it and didn't read the whole thread. which buffer does LAV reccomend? Where can I get one?
This is what was recommended to me:
CP Recoil Buffers:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=4971&title=1911+AUTO+SUPER+TUFF+RECOIL+BUFFERS
I change mine out roughly every 500-700 rounds or during the next clean & lube and have never had a problem.
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-17-07, 13:32
Thanks dinger!. I'll order some today.
Matt Edwards
07-17-07, 19:55
Lav gave me the hairy eyeball when he saw I was useing Wilson buffs. He had recomended CPs to me before. I was smart enough to have a few CP buffs on site and swithced it out. It is not hard to see why he recomends these instead of the "blue ones". I was going to tell him I got a whole bunch of Wison buffs for free, but I'm sure he'd tell me to "give them back for free" or to "put them on Ebay".
Matt (SHAFT on "That other forum".)
Stretz Tactical Inc
07-18-07, 17:50
I was wondering if anyone was shooting a kimber warrior in the class and if so, what work did LAV do or recommend having done to this particular gun?
Peacekeeper1408
07-19-07, 11:42
Matt Edwards, I sent a PM. I think I picked up one of your mags from the class.
What's Larry's take on the MP45?
What's Larry's take on the MP45?
He likes it and has one.
John_Wayne777
07-20-07, 20:44
I believe the M&P .45 is a nice option for that "glock world" we live in...
NCPatrolAR
07-20-07, 20:47
He likes it and has one.
Notice he didnt get an M&P until after he had handled mine down in GA. ;)
Notice he didnt get an M&P until after he had handled mine down in GA. ;)
Au contrair my MILFMASTA friend. He waited for a .45. :p
Matt Edwards
07-24-07, 00:41
Of interest, during the class, he brought out the HK .45 and the M&P .45. He discussed how he was "behinde" the developement of the HK .45 and that it was a "USP with a P2000 makeover". He states that with out a doubt, the HK is more durable and probably more reliable then the MP. In the end, though, it was evident that he would "perfer" the MP as a replacement to the 1911. At least that was what I gathered. Anybody got my back on that?
Matt
Peacekeeper1408
07-24-07, 16:03
Of interest, during the class, he brought out the HK .45 and the M&P .45. He discussed how he was "behinde" the developement of the HK .45 and that it was a "USP with a P2000 makeover". He states that with out a doubt, the HK is more durable and probably more reliable then the MP. In the end, though, it was evident that he would "perfer" the MP as a replacement to the 1911. At least that was what I gathered. Anybody got my back on that?
Matt
That's the way I understood it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-24-07, 19:52
Why would he prefer the M&P if he thought the HK was more durable and reliable?
Any clues?
Why would he prefer the M&P if he thought the HK was more durable and reliable?
Any clues?
Availability, Cost and probably some intangibles....
I know he made a SPECIFIC point to illustrate that the HK45 will likely be around $850ish and the M&P is around $550ish.
Peacekeeper1408
07-24-07, 20:15
I don't believe Larry meant that the M&P was the best weapon, just that it was probably the better choice for a service pistol for general issue. It has the same consistent trigger shot to shot, is less expensive, and is more readily available along with parts and service. He said that the HK was made with better materials, would probably be more durable, and be more reliable. I hope that is clear as mud.
Matt Edwards
07-24-07, 22:17
P1408 is on the money. I'll try to expound...
As far as the durability and reliabilty, his comment was something like "If you backed up a semmi truck full of .45 ammo, the HK would probalbly win the day." In the end it seems he thinks the M&P is just better suited as a service pistol. What I generally say to guys at work that ask about HK pistols is this...
I believe the HK line of pistols are the best enginerd, reliable and durable pistols on the market. As a pure machine in an assinged task, they can't be beat. However, sometimes I think the Germans totally disreagaurd the fact that it has to interface with a human hand.
There is no doubt it will be popular with some and it is very evident that Larry has done all that could be done to make it more ergonamic. I think it is obvious that even he thinks they still fell short on this. Reliability and durability don't much matter if the pistol is too large or too fat for most to use effectively.
That, of course is just my take. I must admit...I was not surprised by this at all. The M&P has meny more features that are "1911 like". Larry said it was a "product improved Glock". I read that as a good blending between a Glock ( As the man says, "it's a Glock world. All others are on the perifery") and the 1911.
I was done being surprised at Larry's opinions after the first phone conversation I ever had with him. It went some thing like "just get a Glock..." if I recall correctly...I followed his advice, but also got a couple "high end" 1911s as well.
John_Wayne777
07-25-07, 07:27
I was done being surprised at Larry's opinions
I dunno about that.....Larry seems to have an endless capacity to shock and amaze....:D
Ron Flowers
08-01-07, 13:43
Am posting to this thread late...I actually posted to another forum an AAR on the class, in which I also praised the quality of instruction.. It was different, yet more, than I expected....and my only criticim was that the detailed take-down, starting about mid-way through it, went at a pace that far exceeded what this novice was able to sustain. I am glad there were a handful of guys with a lot more experience with the pistol than I who could help me in the disassemby and re-assembly.
Paul...if you are reading this, I jave been remiss in contacting you. Thank you for facilitating this course....I know first hand how hard and frustrating that can sometimes be. I regeret not being able to meet you, but hope to in the future.
Regards,
Ron Flowers
The Vickers Tactical / Backyard Outfitters Tactical / Woolrich Elite special offer order forms went out this morning via email. If you attended this class and did not receive it, please let me know.
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