View Full Version : bad pistol reload at a USPSA match, DOH!
Robb Jensen
07-10-07, 05:42
I can just hear Larry Vickers voice "Way to f*** up that reload there Robb! :p
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Even with my F'd up reload and 2 failures to fire, I did pretty well. It was a 5 stage classifier match and I don't think I moved up to A class just yet. I was beat only by my Teammate Luis.
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Heh! If I had a nickel for every time I've f'd-up a reload in a match over the years, I wouldn't have to grouse about the current prices of 5.56 ammo! :D
Have you sent the fresh mag sailing into the air yet? I did that the first time in a match when it was -8F without the windchill.
And don't forget trying to load a flashlight into the pistol. Twice. On the same stage. (that was an IDPA match, though). :D
I LOVE the flashlight trick! I've never done it myself but it never fails to make me wet my pants with laughter when I see it.:D
My other favorite is the "where's my mag" body-slap that we see so often at our carbine matches. Guys that aren't used to their rifle gear and don't remember where they put their spare mag that go hunting all over their body for it.
My buddies enjoy reminding me of my demonstration of stupidity as often as they can. :D
I also tried to reload my AR with a 12ga shell once in a 3-gun match. That was back (1990-something) when I wore my shotgun reloads in belt loops, and it was just the first thing my hand hit. Now I keep my shotgun ammo on the gun or on my strong side. Everything on the support side is rifle or pistol, with rifle always being closer to the belt buckle since I keep my pistol mags where I have them for every day carry. No problems since I picked a layout and stuck with it. Whew!
The slapping around for a spare mag is something I want to avoid, especially in a "tense social situation." It makes sense to me to keep my pistola mags in the same place all the time.
Jay Cunningham
07-10-07, 16:22
Most guys wouldn't have the balls to show themselves F'ing up a reload. My respect for you went up another notch.
Robb Jensen
07-10-07, 20:54
I screw up as much as the best of them. I'm only human and not afraid to show when I mess up and not afraid to make fun of myself when I do it.
The biggest thing is knowing why I messed up. You're supposed to 'Look the mag into the pistol'. I was going too fast and looked at the next target while attempting the reload and definately wasn't 'looking the mag into the pistol'.
When I realized I was messing up and regained control of the mag I saw that the cartridges were facing the wrong way and I had to turn the mag around 180 degrees. Even with the messed up reload and a hard primer, I still placed 5th of 16 shooters on that stage and got 66 of the 70 points available (I stayed in the game!)
We had a stage 2 yrs ago at the VA/MD Sectional match where you had to carry this plastic knife across the course and before firing the last shot drop it in this bucket. I saw 2 people try to load knife into their pistols. One guy almost dropped his pistol in the bucket ! :eek: That was pretty funny. When I was at my Blackwater Carbine Operators course I once brought up a Glock 17 mag when attemping to reload my carbine. My AR mags and pistol mags were both on my belt (left side) pretty close together and one the lead instructor said, "It'll be kinda hard to get that rifle to fire 9mm."
Voodoochild
07-10-07, 21:05
Good job Robb..but not really;)
Just for that you have to continuous reload drills until you learn your lesson.
Most guys wouldn't have the balls to show themselves F'ing up a reload. My respect for you went up another notch.
I do it so often that photographic evidence like gotm4's would be redundant in my case. Anyone who wants to see it just has to attend a match or two in Indiana and they'll see me do something stupid. :D
gotm4 ... I am curious. Do you "feel it" when you do a really good reload? I know that when I do a reload that goes well, I don't remember doing it at all. I know it went well when the others tell me it was a good reload. I usually only notice what I'm doing when it goes oh so very badly.
Robb Jensen
07-11-07, 07:25
gotm4 ... I am curious. Do you "feel it" when you do a really good reload? I know that when I do a reload that goes well, I don't remember doing it at all. I know it went well when the others tell me it was a good reload. I usually only notice what I'm doing when it goes oh so very badly.
It all depends and varies. All most all of the time when I do really well on a stage, it seems like it took forever and I usually don't remember much. Usually I can just remember the sight pictures. If I mess up something like a reload, the order I had planned to shoot the stage etc then I usually remember just the mess up if I stayed in the game. If I lost my focus then I remember everything. I find if I haven't practiced much or shot matches in a long time it becomes easier to loose it. The focus as well as shooting skill are very perishable. To stay sharp even just 10min of dryfire, dry practice and just overall gun handling do wonders to keep the edge.
Here's a good thread on the Brian Enos forums about perception. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46326
A quote from the thread:
"Smooth feels slow.
Panic is slow and seems fast."--MichiganShootist
He's dead on in the description. The human brain is a very bad perceiver of time when it is stressed.
Well I don't fee so bad about being a B class shooter in Limited and Production, I started a few years ago as a low C class shooter and now I'm 3.56% from A class! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47492&hl=SWAT
quotes from the thread:
"A USPSA B shooter has godlike capabilities with a pistol compared to the general shooting public like you meet at typical plinking ranges and most LEO are not excluded here. The truth is that most folks who have/carry guns can't really shoot them very well. We are a small inlet in a sea of gun owners ;-/"--George
"I don't see mediocrity there, B-class shooters shoot better than most SWAT team members.
You can shoot, BEEEE proud of it."--dirtypool40
Voodoochild
07-11-07, 12:41
Pretty good photo work as well. I am curious if the photographer is allowed to run along side you during the shoot?
Robb Jensen
07-11-07, 12:44
Pretty good photo work as well. I am curious if the photographer is allowed to run along side you during the shoot?
As long as they stay out of the 'shooting area', aka the 180 degree imaginary line that the shooter can't point his/her muzzle past (w/o being DQ'd) the photographer and other shooters are fine/safe.
Well I don't fee so bad about being a B class shooter in Limited and Production, I started a few years ago as a low C class shooter and now I'm 3.56% from A class !
I'm one of those "C CLASS FOREVER!" types.
I haven't shot a decent classifier in a few years. My only 60% score dropped off of my most recent eight a long, long time ago. :D
Link to video (http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=3e64922a5bb1cd63c048cf0ceacdccf1.698283)
Here's my favorite recent mis-load. What you can't see from this angle is Steve trying to load a rifle mag into his single-stack (at the "You silly bastard" mark ;) ). He recovered and beat the par time anyway.
I think the vid might require a yahoo login, I have a different angle somewhere else but can't find it.
Robb Jensen
07-13-07, 06:40
I'm one of those "C CLASS FOREVER!" types.
I haven't shot a decent classifier in a few years. My only 60% score dropped off of my most recent eight a long, long time ago. :D
If you get back into it, it all comes back.
My best Limited classifier was CM 03-04 3V (http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/cm03-04.pdf) which I got 77%. And my best ever in Production was CM 99-8 Melody Line (http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/cm99-08.pdf) which I got 80% (indoor match too). I usually don't do great on classifiers and I do a little worse indoors. At matches especially large outdoor ones I typically do very well and sometimes beat A class and some Master class shooters. It's the big field stages where I make up time, shooting accurately at further targets etc. Classifiers as you know are typically low round count and usually don't require movement (there's some that are just pure speed). To me this game is going further and further towards speed. If it were up to me I would do away with the IPSC targets (with heads) that we now use and go the the Int'l targets and change the scoring so that misses and C and D zone hits hurt you worse. Accuracy should be paramount.
At SummerBlast this weekend I'll be shooting Limited, which I'm at 67% right now (middle B class) it should count as 3 classifiers, 2 are in the match and should there be enough GrandMasters in Limited then the whole match performance will also count as a classifier.
My primary "problem" is that I use the matches for my "practice" for other things. I'm not adequately motivated to practice (live or dry fire) other than that, or just for matches. Sometimes I break down and do it ... I actually practiced twice last week ... but it's normally less than that per year. :D
Robb Jensen
07-19-07, 05:40
I fixed it, or 'got it right' at SummerBlast! I did my best ever El Prez, I ran it in 7.02sec even with a pretty slow draw (1.80sec) and slow reload (1.75sec). With 9 alphas and 3 charlies, so it was a hit factor of 8.1197 and was 75.1740% a low A class performance but my best ever in Limited. I placed 19th out of 83 shooters on this stage.
These are some of the GrandMasters times:
Todd Jarrett shot it in 4.70sec with 11 alphas and 1 charlie (Limited, using a Para) hit factor of 12.5532 and got 100% (GM class).
Dave Sevigny shot it in 5.52sec with 10 alphas and 2 charlies (Production, using a Glock) hit factor of 10.1449 and got 98.8672% (GM class)
David Olhasso shot it in 5.86sec with 8 alphas and 4 charlies (Production, using a SA XD) hit factor of 8.8737 and got 86.4787% (A class)
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I notice you look at the gun when you're reloading, is that normal for you? If you watched some of the "gun celebs" who's times you posted did you notice if they did?
The reason I ask is, I'm always working on weapon manipulation with my eyes on the target. I press check by sticking my finger in the chamber to see if there's a round there with my 1911, and I've started reaching up and feeling for the top round in the mag on the AR. I'm also still working on reloading both without taking my eyes off the target.
Any thoughts on what someone should be looking at when doing various weapon manipulations?
Robb Jensen
07-19-07, 06:44
I notice you look at the gun when you're reloading, is that normal for you? If you watched some of the "gun celebs" who's times you posted did you notice if they did?
The reason I ask is, I'm always working on weapon manipulation with my eyes on the target. I press check by sticking my finger in the chamber to see if there's a round there with my 1911, and I've started reaching up and feeling for the top round in the mag on the AR. I'm also still working on reloading both without taking my eyes off the target.
Any thoughts on what someone should be looking at when doing various weapon manipulations?
Yes I do look at the gun during the reload. I was taught to 'look the mag into the well' by GrandMaster Phil Strader. I worked for him at Shooters Paradise for 6 months or so and he gave me tons of tips. The few times I shot with Todd Jarrett he's given me some tips too. If you don't look at it it'll be very easy to mess it up. Getting the mag into the well is pretty precise and needs good attention. It takes about .25sec to look back at the target, if you fumble the reload it'll cost you 1-2 seconds. (your eyes are much faster than you think) Racking the slide is a pretty gross skill and can be done without looking.
Once it's in and seated then drive the gun back to the target and reacquire the front sight. I also shoot the targets (in this case) left to right, because thats the way the guns going to go anyway. Then on the reload force the pistol back to the leftmost target and shoot the three again, left to right. You can see Todd 'looking the mag into the well' in the first stage of this video. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8679127521175518091. It's very quick and you can almost miss it, it's just a quick glance as he's fast as hell.
I typically hold the gun too low for my reloads (one of my weaknesses), if you watch Todd it's pretty high, about nose level so he doesn't have to move his head much at all.
He's a video oh Phil starting a stage where he has to load the pistol. He 'looks the mag into the well' and once in he looks ahead and then racks the slide without looking. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=306480574833024860&total=33&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7
Same here, when he's just messing around.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7041728505509098589
Here's a video of Travis Tomasie doing a reload with an Open gun. Watch his eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2OKF8y2wkY
I fixed it, or 'got it right' at SummerBlast! I did my best ever El Prez, I ran it in 7.02sec even with a pretty slow draw (1.80sec) and slow reload (1.75sec). With 9 alphas and 3 charlies, so it was a hit factor of 8.1197 and was 75.1740% a low A class performance but my best ever in Limited. I placed 19th out of 83 shooters on this stage.
Well done!
My best was 51 points (I was shooting minor ... 9mm 1911 in Lim10) in 7.92 seconds. HF = 6.439, which was just under 60% in Lim10.
I doubt if I've ever done a reload in under two seconds, and my time to turn around and draw was close to two. I think my transititions and splits were pretty good.
The weird thing is, my goal for that day was to go under 10 seconds with good hits. I did a little better than I expected.
Speaking of reloads . . . I was cheat . . . er . . . shooting in a practice match last night, and I chose to shoot my Para .45 instead of a single stack gun for the first time in a long time. I forgot how much easier it is to reload a wide body gun!
On the down side, I broke the barrel link on the second stage.
Robb Jensen
07-19-07, 08:12
Well done!
My best was 51 points (I was shooting minor ... 9mm 1911 in Lim10) in 7.92 seconds. HF = 6.439, which was just under 60% in Lim10.
I doubt if I've ever done a reload in under two seconds, and my time to turn around and draw was close to two. I think my transititions and splits were pretty good.
The weird thing is, my goal for that day was to go under 10 seconds with good hits. I did a little better than I expected.
Speaking of reloads . . . I was cheat . . . er . . . shooting in a practice match last night, and I chose to shoot my Para .45 instead of a single stack gun for the first time in a long time. I forgot how much easier it is to reload a wide body gun!
On the down side, I broke the barrel link on the second stage.
Thanks. Mine was 57 points. Yeah going from shooting a M&P9 and Glock 17 for almost a year and back into the STI for me it way easier to reload, even easier since I just went from a STI magwell to a Dawson ICE. The RO gave me some of my split times, some were in the .11sec range and one target transition was in the .18sec range. If I can get my lazy ass to practice drawing, drawing and turning and reloads more I should make A class and Master class pretty quickly as once I'm actually shooting I'm doing it as fast and accurately as most Master class shooters.
I see what you mean about keeping the gun at eye level for the reload. It seems that alot of people have a tendency to drop it to waist height. Like they want to bring the gun to the magazine instead of the magazine to the gun.
I'm going to try this with both my pistol and AR. Obviously the AR being the easier of the two.
Thanks. Mine was 57 points. Yeah going from shooting a M&P9 and Glock 17 for almost a year and back into the STI for me it way easier to reload, even easier since I just went from a STI magwell to a Dawson ICE. The RO gave me some of my split times, some were in the .11sec range and one target transition was in the .18sec range. If I can get my lazy ass to practice drawing, drawing and turning and reloads more I should make A class and Master class pretty quickly as once I'm actually shooting I'm doing it as fast and accurately as most Master class shooters.
I think if I dry fired five minutes a day, three or four time a week I could make B class without much trouble. I'm just too lazy. On the other hand, it would be nicer to be clobbered by B class shooters instead of C class shooters in big matches. :D
I know before I shoot a stage I'm supposed to snap my eyes/head to the next target after I call the last shot, then drive the gun, but when I actually shoot, I just sort of slop through it since knowing what to do and doing it are really different if you don't practice enough.
I also don't look at the magwell when I am reloading. Again, I know I should glance at it (at least) until the end of the mag is in the magwell, but it just never happens when the timer is running.
Robb Jensen
07-19-07, 08:22
I know before I shoot a stage I'm supposed to snap my eyes/head to the next target after I call the last shot, then drive the gun, but when I actually shoot, I just sort of slop through it since knowing what to do and doing it are really different if you don't practice enough.
I don't always do it either but for shooting very fast like the El Prez or any other 'hoser' stage as soon as the shot breaks your eyes should be traveling to the next target before your pistol gets there. Human nature = you'll shoot what you're seeing, the gun will follow your eyes naturally, sort of an automatic Zen thing. You'll see this happening with drivers too, they'll look at something other than the road and drive toward it.
I see what you mean about keeping the gun at eye level for the reload. It seems that alot of people have a tendency to drop it to waist height. Like they want to bring the gun to the magazine instead of the magazine to the gun.
I'm going to try this with both my pistol and AR. Obviously the AR being the easier of the two.
Dropping the gun is wasted motion = equally wasted time and not being able to see the targets peripherally. You do have to drop it a little if reloading while moving (just to see where you're going and keeping your balance). You can see that in this video of Julie Goloski shooting a single stack 1911 at the Single Stack Nationals this year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By0-XL25R-g
For carbine I was taught by Travis (SimplyDynamic here) and then at Blackwater to reload 'at the work station'. Essentially it's the same as pistol except you use your trigger finger to hit the mag release as the carbine is still extended straight out and in your shoulder. Then pull it in (magwell about nose level) and look the fresh mag into the well, push/pull and reengage/reacquire the target(s).
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