View Full Version : Glock 19 Gen 3 vs Gen 4
Youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkHEdNx0Mk4)
Can we embed videos here?
If you just want to see the shooting part, go to 2:30.
I figured some of the forum members here might like to see the high speed video comparisons. The Gen 4's constant "near malfunctions" are troubling.
Mike Miller
09-16-10, 16:32
I really enjoyed the buffer test video, and this one is just as good. Thank you.
ROCKET20_GINSU
09-16-10, 16:46
Thanks for posting that link. I think the reviewer did a great review and the high speed video was very interesting. That was enough to push me over the edge and convince me to stay with the Gen 3 G19s, at least for now.
GU
What ammo were you shooting? Same ammo for both generations?
I think what you see in the videos is RWS 124gr. Same ammo for both. I shot RWS, WWB, Winchester 124gr NATO, Federal HST, and my own handloads through both, overall. Failures to eject in the Gen 4 with my handloads (1) and with RWS (2), so 3 failures out of 300 rounds (100 RWS, 200 handloads).
87GN - thanks for the very nice video - interesting observations on how time and use sends you back to the Gen 3
Thank you so much for the excellent review! Very informative.
I just decided today to go with the Gen 3 and was not so sure. Now I am positive that the Gen 3 is the right decision. That ejection on the Gen 4 is very troubling. Is this something that Glock has taken notice of?
I'm not saying the Gen4 is a flawed design, but I've returned to carrying a 3rd Gen G19 as my primary duty pistol. Just picked up a new OD version yesterday - it ran 300 rounds of mixed FMJ and JHP today flawlessly, and, I honestly believe, with greater accuracy than my Gen4.
The fact that my "travel" G19 (for OCONUS work) is a 3rd Gen just means it makes sense to carry the 3rd Gen on a daily basis.
My wife finds the Gen4 "grip reduction" to make a big difference in how she can handle the G19, so she just got herself a new primary house gun!
Regards,
Kevin
Well that nails it. The high speed video was awesome. I witnessed those same ejection patterns in my Gen 4 G17. I had cases dribbling out across my knuckles...in both directions, left and right, from a right hand hold. I had smashed cases on the ground. I had FTF, FTE, you name it. When +p ammo lands next to your right foot, there is a problem. After it broke in from 1000+ rounds it was more consistent, but never as confidence inspiring as any of the Glocks I have owned since the late 1980's. I sold mine as I considered it unacceptable from a confidence standpoint, and I had a laundry list of engineering objections to the modifications. I did like the grip texture, but not the cheesy backstraps.
I am looking forward to the gen 5 9mm's.... Gen 3 internals, gen 4 texture, and with a backstrap like an HK, S&W, or even...Ruger....
Beat Trash
09-16-10, 19:47
I've carried a Gen 3 G19 off duty since around 2000. I trust it implicitly.
I bought a pair of Glock 19's (managed to get consecutive serial numbered guns) in 2001 and set them aside for my kids, for when they get of age.
I was considering selling off all three of my Glock 19's for gen 4 Glock 19's.
The high speed video was enlightening, to say the least. I'm keeping my gen3 Glocks....
Great video and comparison/review.
platoonDaddy
09-16-10, 20:14
dang great friggin video. With my G17 Gen 4 I also experience rounds bouncing all over the place.
Fire duty ammo through it, not weak range ammo, then post that video.
The same bitching and moaning happened when Glock came out with the previous two gens, people hate change.
Fire duty ammo through it, not weak range ammo, then post that video.
The same bitching and moaning happened when Glock came out with the previous two gens, people hate change.
RWS is a 124gr FMJ at ~1200fps, as chronographed by me (compared to 1180fps for Winchester Ranger 124gr +P). The problem is that it's not as consistent as the HST or the Winchester Ranger. Sorry if I kicked your sacred cow.
Thank you for that, especially the high speed video. M4C members do it again!
You touched on the mag release briefly on the video, any further thoughts? In my limited time with a Gen4, I didn't like it as compared to the Gen3, however I run Vickers on mine. Not a really fair comparison.
D. Christopher
09-16-10, 23:00
Sorry if I kicked your sacred cow.
That one made me laugh! Thanks for the chuckle and the good video. To each their own I suppose but I have no interest in a Gen 4, your video just confirms my own experiences. If I wanted more excitement and uncertainty in my life I would go back to carrying my 1911.
I haven't had any of these issues with my Gen 4 G19. It's been flawless for 600 rds with various defensive and practice ammo. No reloads though.
crowkiller
09-17-10, 07:00
Well done! Thanks
littlejerry
09-17-10, 07:11
Very telling.
I would be curious to see the high-speed video results with duty ammo as someone else mentioned. Firing my Gen3 and Gen 4 19 side-by-side I saw Gen4 ejection with Ranger RA9B as being equivalent to Gen3 ejection with Walmart Federal 115 grain.
Regardless- the recoil spring just seems too strong. If anything it would be nice if we just had a regular single spring setup that fit the new Gen4 frames...
I do disagree on the texture and mag release. I'm still in love with those features. But that is a personal preference.
Great review, thanks for posting it.
operator81
09-17-10, 10:36
Something about the Gen4's ejection issues aren't adding up. I watched the video again this morning and saw you stated in the high speed comparison that the slide velocity of the Gen4 and Gen3 were the same. This indicates to me that the Gen4 recoil spring is not causing any more resistance to the rearward moving slide then the Gen3.
Regarding the ejection patterns, if you look at the shot at 3:35, it appears that the casing is not getting full contact with the ejector and just bouncing off the breach face. I noticed this in some of the shots following 3:35. It also looks as though the casing is losing contact with the extractor prematurely in some of the shots. This could also explain why the Gen4 was not having positive ejection. Given you were shooting full power 9mm (124 gr at 1200 fps), which is closer in recoil to .40, I'm leaning towards that particular Gen4 having extractor/ejector issues, not recoil spring issues.
Thanks for the video, I appreciate the time and effort you take, especially with the high speed video.
Thank you for posting this, the high-speed camera work is brilliant, it really is a great tool for showing what is so hard to describe as this is exactly what I experienced through 5000rds with my Gen4 G17 and what many other guys are seeing with theirs. The 180 degree stovepipes, the brass dribbling out, the erratic ejection... it's like Deja vu.
Hope you don't mind but I posted the link to your vid up on GT as it shows what has been so hard for many to explain in many the discussion, if you'd like me to delete it just let me know.
platoonDaddy
09-17-10, 13:30
In personal opinion you should pass this "video" onto Glock. As previously stated, I am experiencing the same problem with my Gen 4 G17.
Why fix something that isn't broken:confused:
I wouldn't be putting my hands on a Gen4 glock to soon, I rather sit this one out.
It's all marketing schemes:pJP
Moose-Knuckle
09-17-10, 16:30
Why fix something that isn't broken:confused:
I recall Mr. Vickers saying something similar in his thead on the subject a while back. The 9mm Gen3 GLOCKs are the most combat proven handguns in the world currently, all they require is more ammo.
All improvement requires change, not all change is improvement.
I picked up a G22 Gen 4 today.
It shoots amazingly well. No malfunctions with or without a light. It's spring quite a bit heavier than my old G22 Gen 3.
Ejection is very consistent.
Thank you for posting this, the high-speed camera work is brilliant, it really is a great tool for showing what is so hard to describe as this is exactly what I experienced through 5000rds with my Gen4 G17 and what many other guys are seeing with theirs. The 180 degree stovepipes, the brass dribbling out, the erratic ejection... it's like Deja vu.
Hope you don't mind but I posted the link to your vid up on GT as it shows what has been so hard for many to explain in many the discussion, if you'd like me to delete it just let me know.
Looks like the Glock suicide cult has circled the wagons. I love the guy who says I must have intentionally changed my grip to make the Gen 4 malfunction. I still haven't seen an explanation as to why limpwristing is the problem when I held the weapon with my thumb and trigger finger and it functioned the same as when I had good and so-so grips on the weapon.
operator81
09-17-10, 21:19
I picked up a G22 Gen 4 today.
It shoots amazingly well. No malfunctions with or without a light. It's spring quite a bit heavier than my old G22 Gen 3.
Ejection is very consistent.
How would you rate the reduction in felt recoil, if any, to a Gen3 G22?
How would you rate the reduction in felt recoil, if any, to a Gen3 G22?
It's been too long for me to give you any genuine comparison. However, if you blindfolded me and told me it was a 9mm, I'd (probably) believe you.
operator81
09-17-10, 21:21
Cool, I might have to break down and give one a try. Thanks.
Cool, I might have to break down and give one a try. Thanks.
I'll have video up tomorrow, maybe a preview up tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vweIr8E3GFQ
Looks like the Glock suicide cult has circled the wagons. I love the guy who says I must have intentionally changed my grip to make the Gen 4 malfunction. I still haven't seen an explanation as to why limpwristing is the problem when I held the weapon with my thumb and trigger finger and it functioned the same as when I had good and so-so grips on the weapon.
It's just crazy...
No issues with 3 Gen 4 17's and 1 Gen 4 19. Ejection patterns are not entirely consistent but nothing that bothers me. Certainly no reliability issues. No weak ejection as shown in the video despite shooting a lot of weak 9mm. The positives are better grip shape, mag release, flatter shooting. I won't buy anything but Gen 4 Glocks now. I prefer the stronger recoil spring as well. Best Glock's I've ever owned. Nice videos but they don't reflect my experience.
. I prefer the stronger recoil spring as well.
I've asked this before but didn't get an answer: anybody knows what are the spring weight rates for Gen 4 Glocks?
I've asked this before but didn't get an answer: anybody knows what are the spring weight rates for Gen 4 Glocks?
There is a difference not only in rate, but also preload, or installed load between the generations. I have not played with anything but the original gen 4 G17 set up, but that had a much higher force in battery than even an original gen 1 19 lb spring (I still have a bag of those from the 1980's). The current gen 3's are 17 lbs.
There is a difference not only in rate, but also preload, or installed load between the generations. I have not played with anything but the original gen 4 G17 set up, but that had a much higher force in battery than even an original gen 1 19 lb spring (I still have a bag of those from the 1980's). The current gen 3's are 17 lbs.
Reason I asked is that I experimented with extra-power 20 lbs spring on my Gen 3 G-19 (standard weight weight is 18) and I found that the gun didn't shoot much flatter but ejection got really weak and erratic. Just wondering if perceived better flip/recoil of Gen 4 has to do with better ergos rather than spring...
Reason I asked is that I experimented with extra-power 20 lbs spring on my Gen 3 G-19 (standard weight weight is 18) and I found that the gun didn't shoot much flatter but ejection got really weak and erratic. Just wondering if perceived better flip/recoil of Gen 4 has to do with better ergos rather than spring...
Could it be that the perceived better flip is in actuality decreased "subjective felt recoil" and also a dose of "placebo effect" due to the heavier spring and expectation that it will be flatter shooting? I look at the excellent videos, and front sight back on target appears to be virtually the same for both Gen3 and 4 guns.
Could it be that the perceived better flip is in actuality decreased "subjective felt recoil" and also a dose of "placebo effect" due to the heavier spring and expectation that it will be flatter shooting? I look at the excellent videos, and front sight back on target appears to be virtually the same for both Gen3 and 4 guns.
Maybe. I didn't find any noticeable difference in subjective perception; as far as "placebo" expectations - yes it is possible. It has been noted that people often feel that they perform better with new and "improved" gear - a lot of recreational tennis players switch their sticks annually because they feel they do better with new ones, without any effect on their rankings...
I personally remain skeptical about that spring thing. I don't know how much poundage can be added over to what Gen 3 is now sprung at to give tangible advantage but not to affect functioning. I trust Gen 4 owners who state they shoot Gen 4 better than Gen 3, but I wonder if ability to adjust grip size to their liking and better texturing has more impact than recoil spring.
The biggest appeal to me has to do with the grip. Lets be honest a 9mm doesn't have too much recoil to begin with, and most of us are shot-on-shot without the "flatter dual recoil" spring. I will admit it did seem to be flatter when compared to my former M&P9 fullsize (both guns shooting with lights)..
Either way, my experience with my G19 has been positive, the only errors I have had have been due to weak ammunition that I have reloaded. I'm not doubting the OP or anyone else who has had issues, I'm saying that in my case, I'm confident with my pistol...
I had no expectations of flatter shooting. I would normally expect a stronger spring to have more muzzle flip not less. Which is why so many Glock gun gamers use weak recoil springs. This is one of many threads on the Gen 4s on this forum. In every previous thread the vast majority of those who actually owned Gen 4s with a significant number of round and various ammo types through them report no issues. So round and round we go.
I believe the reason the muzzle flip looks the same in these videos is that Glock learned from the 17 and when they released the new 19, they had already decreased the spring force. The timing of the slide stroke may be different even if the total speed is the same (instantaneous velocity along the travel) and other dynamic changes internal to the gun (such as the large spring assembly rubbing on the bottom of the barrel) may be the cause of the decreased reliability.
I think if Glock had introduced the gen 4 in 1985, or whenever, the world would have been singing its praises, but, we have seen better since then, hence the critical comments.
As to IPSC shooting, sight recovery on target is definitely improved by lighter springs. One of the more recent Front Sight magazines had a technical article that declared heavier springs decreased muzzle flip, but lighter springs would let you shoot faster.
RandomHero01
09-18-10, 18:49
I'm no expert pistoleer by any means, but I've had many thousands of rounds down range from my old G23 and in comparison my new Gen4 G19 is effing awesome. Functions flawlessly, feels better in my hand, and the 9mm is (as mentioned above) pretty easy to control for repeat shots. Granted I'm comparing .40 to 9mm, but Glock really did a great job with making this new generation feel better in the hand even before you squeeze the trigger. Kudos to those Austrian SOBs and their superior product.
RH01
Just wondering if perceived better flip/recoil of Gen 4 has to do with better ergos rather than spring...
This.
IMO there is no argument that the Gen4 ergos are an improvement over the Gen3 guns, the texture is far better as it adds substantial purchase to what used to be a slippery handle, and then, being able to settle on a grip profile that works best for a given individual is far and away better than a one-size-fits-all platform.
IMO it's the placebo effect making guys believe the dual-spring=reduced-recoil hype, but it's the better ergos/texture that's doing the heavy lifting.
Honestly, I liked the Gen4 ergos/texture enough where I wish I could run out and buy another one right now, but mine ran like s**t and it wasn't limp-wristing, weak ammo, or anything else not gun-related (and there is enough chatter out there of guys having issues that it's pretty obvious that what happened in my case isn't so rare).
Don't know why the couldn't have just updated the ergos/texture and left well enough alone (suspect they wanted at least one "buzz feature" not found in the M&Ps but that's just a guess).
I'm looking at getting a Glock 19 Gen 3 soon. The Gen 4 just does not appeal to me. Thanks for the comparision.
Went with the Gen 3 G17. Will go with a Gen 3 G19 for the wife.
I'm looking at getting a Glock 19 Gen 3 soon. The Gen 4 just does not appeal to me. Thanks for the comparision.
Ditto. The Gen 3 needs no improvement IMO. Just does exactly what I want it to do.....I have no complaints at all....never have.
When someone asks me which, my answer depends on their situation. If this is the only defensive gun they'll have and they can barely swing the one, the Gen 3 is a safer bet based on reports of some folks having problems.
This scenario doesn't describe me at all so I would be all Gen 4.
Considering:
1st Gen 4 G17 - 4481 rounds, stoppages 0 (orig 01 spring)
2nd Gen 4 G17 - 2300 rounds, stoppages 0 (orig 01 spring)
Gen 4 G19 - 1600 rounds, stoppages 0 (stock 03 spring)
Ammo has been the whole gamut of least expensive available UMC, WWB, Blazer, Fiocchi, Magtech, etc.
Internal frame wear is fairly consistent with some of the pics posted and had remained constant through these thousands of rounds.
My timed speed/accuracy drills are all significantly better Gen 4 vs Gen 3.
It's a no brainer Gen 4 decision for me.
Here's a scenario....Gen 3 works. Gen 4 offers no appreciable advantages and is just 'different' enough.....to stick with Gen 3.
Sometimes 'different' isn't better. :meeting:
Shoot what you shoot well. The end.
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