View Full Version : Douchebag Wearing Anti-flag T Shirt
Cincinnatus
09-16-10, 19:44
I work in academia. Today I saw some skinny-ass hippie type little dipshit walk by me wearing a shirt that on the front said "Anti-flag" with a picture of our flag, and on the back said "no one is free when some are opressed."
Man, if I had not been in my place of employment I would have told him exactly what I thought of bastards desecrating our flag. But in academia, I would have been the one fired for excercising MY freedom of speech to tell someone what I thought of THEIR so-called freedom of speech.
Of course, he was only about 19-20ish. Some dude with no idea WTF he is doing or what he is professing actually means, like the nimrods wearing Che shirts, etc.
Still pissed me off, though.:mad:
Spare the rod......, he wouldnt have made it very far in my highschool if the pricipal didnt get him first, we sure would have.
Cincinnatus
09-16-10, 19:47
Spare the rod......, he wouldnt have made it very far in my highschool if the pricipal didnt get him first, we sure would have.
Yeah, this was college, in Texas, no less. And I'm sure many of his fellow students disliked his shirt, but even here, colleges are liberal-ville.
Belmont31R
09-16-10, 19:48
Why academia has been a target of the far lefties for the last 40 years....
Yeah I posted before I thought it thru, I never went to college so that experience was lost on me. I feel as tho I didnt miss anything.
Yeah, this was college, in Texas, no less. And I'm sure many of his fellow students disliked his shirt, but even here, colleges are liberal-ville.
Austin?
Cincinnatus
09-16-10, 20:02
Austin?
Nope.
anti-flag is a band FYI.
no idea what their politics are or anything :confused:
guessing left wing like most bands :ph34r:
so the dude may or may not be an america-hater. :confused:
SeriousStudent
09-16-10, 20:46
"no one is free when some are opressed."
He's absolutely right, no one is free when some are oppressed.
In China, Venezuela, Iran, etc..... Lots of oppressed folks there.
Chicago leaps to mind as well.
And yep, I used to be an adjust professor at a Texas college. Tell me all about freedom of expression. ;)
kaiservontexas
09-16-10, 20:56
Anrcho-Punk Band
variablebinary
09-16-10, 20:56
The irony is you can only bitch about the lack of freedom in a free country.
Try and talk that crazy shit in Iran or China. Good luck with that. I hear the taliban have a real open ear...right before they open your freaking throat with a butcher knife
The irony is you can only bitch about the lack of freedom in a free country.
Try and talk that crazy shit in Iran or China. Good luck with that. I hear the taliban have a real open ear...right before they open your freaking throat with a butcher knife
dissent is patriotic...
wish the obamanites that were so "patriotic" during the bush years would remember that....
militarymoron
09-16-10, 21:11
But in academia, I would have been the one fired for excercising MY freedom of speech to tell someone what I thought of THEIR so-called freedom of speech.
or, you could keep quiet and express your freedom of speech by wearing this t-shirt. they'd have to let you wear this if they let him wear his. :)
Front:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/shirt1.jpg
Back:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/shirt2.jpg
Alright MM you gotta tell us where you got the shirt, please and thank you.
militarymoron
09-16-10, 22:03
tangodown printed some of these out for cameron hopkins a few years ago, if i recall correctly. not sure if they have any more since it's been a while.
SeriousStudent
09-16-10, 22:16
Hahaha!!! I love that shirt! :D
I saw a t-shirt a long time ago at the Knob Creek shoot.
On the front it said "I love hippies!" in very large type.
Much smaller, on the back, it said "They run slow in flip-flops. And since they breed like crazy, I have plenty of targets."
Cincinnatus
09-16-10, 22:37
or, you could keep quiet and express your freedom of speech by wearing this t-shirt. they'd have to let you wear this if they let him wear his. :)
Front:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/shirt1.jpg
Back:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/militarymoron/shirt2.jpg
:lol:
I need that shirt MM!
Its enough to drive around VA/DC with my Jeep, M4fun license plate, and LaRue "God Bless our Troops, especially the Snipers" split bumper sticker.
That rocks and academia is about learning, not indoctrination.
I remember seeing one of the TangoDown guys wearing that shirt at a 2007 10-8 shotgun class. I should have ordered one then and there. I asked about them a few months ago and was told they were a very limited run, and had sold out years ago.
Whenever I see some idiot wearing a flag-burning shirt, I have to sit back and remind myself that, yes, they do have the freedom to burn the flag, and to talk about burning the flag. I wish they'd go to some of these third-world hell-holes and get educated the hard way about the kind of freedoms and privileges they take for granted, but you can't force it on them. Some people are just stupid.
My father is a prof. He was in a liberal college before and when all of the other profs put anti-war shit on their office doors he used to put pictures of me in Iraq and in my blues stateside...
He called it, "Quiet protesting with a dare" or something like that.
kaiservontexas
09-17-10, 01:08
Meh help a kid out explain how the anarchist, mostly Ukrainian, were useful tools to the Russian Revolution that ended up in the sausage grinder.
This also applies to other revolutions such as China and Spain.
The irony is you can only bitch about the lack of freedom in a free country.
Try and talk that crazy shit in Iran or China. Good luck with that. I hear the taliban have a real open ear...right before they open your freaking throat with a butcher knife
People complain about their freedom all the time in China and in Iran. In fact, believe it or not the entire Contemporary Art Movement in China was born from people having spontaneous art shows about their lack of freedom, and doing it in such a way that they were somewhat safe from being thrown in jail. Some of these artists are considered some of the best in the world right now! Pioneers of a cultural revolution that is taking place among the average people in China.
What amazes me is this:
I live in a free country full of what are supposed to be educated people. However I keep coming across very simplistic and short sighted approaches towards the concepts of both Freedom and The United States of America.
Anyone that says this kid shouldn't have the right to burn his flag, fly his flag proudly, flip it upside down, or walk around with it on a t-shirt for some anarcho punk band, isn't actually a true blooded American in my opinion. This is his First Amendment Right, and whatever I think shouldn't negate that. In fact "the people that died" for that, didn't die for an Icon (the flag) they died for an idea, a concept, and a reality (the freedom).
Placing a condition on that freedom makes it worthless.
Don't forget that with your freedom means you have to accept that other peoples expression may not leave the best taste in your mouth.
If you don't like it, well like the ole' saying says: Love It Or Leave It!
Your more then welcome to move to a country where respect of the national flag, or the national image is obligatory. In fact I think they would really appreciate so much blind, un-questioning patriotism, maybe even give you a villa.
variablebinary
09-17-10, 02:15
People complain about their freedom all the time in China and in Iran. In fact, believe it or not the entire Contemporary Art Movement in China was born from people having spontaneous art shows about their lack of freedom, and doing it in such a way that they were somewhat safe from being thrown in jail. Some of these artists are considered some of the best in the world right now! Pioneers of a cultural revolution that is taking place among the average people in China.
What amazes me is this:
I live in a free country full of what are supposed to be educated people. However I keep coming across very simplistic and short sighted approaches towards the concepts of both Freedom and The United States of America.
Anyone that says this kid shouldn't have the right to burn his flag, fly his flag proudly, flip it upside down, or walk around with it on a t-shirt for some anarcho punk band, isn't actually a true blooded American in my opinion. This is his First Amendment Right, and whatever I think shouldn't negate that. In fact "the people that died" for that, didn't die for an Icon (the flag) they died for an idea, a concept, and a reality (the freedom).
Placing a condition on that freedom makes it worthless.
Don't forget that with your freedom means you have to accept that other peoples expression may not leave the best taste in your mouth.
If you don't like it, well like the ole' saying says: Love It Or Leave It!
Your more then welcome to move to a country where respect of the national flag, or the national image is obligatory. In fact I think they would really appreciate so much blind, un-questioning patriotism, maybe even give you a villa.
I think you need to slow your roll there.
I know you like to adopt the prose of pseudo intellectual New York academia, but it is a fact that America is a place where little skinny jeans wearing maggots can in fact burn flags and wear t-shirts of Mao, Che, or whatever.
I certainly did not say they didn't have the right to do so; you're making counter points to the voices in your own head.
As for China, in your own words, engaging in freedom of expression can get you thrown in a gulag. That is what I said, only you added pyrite high brow references to artists, all while conceding to my two points:
You can bitch about being free, in a free nation. True?
Not so much in places like China and Iran where you might, if I can quote you "...be thrown in jail...". Also true, yes?
Listen, don't feel jilted and the need to puff up because I ignored your IM, as I found it not worth responding to.
....an Icon (the flag) they died for an idea, a concept, and a reality (freedom)
I might be wrong in my line of thought, but an icon is something that represents an idea, concept, and reality. So, if you think about it, the people who founded this country did die for the flag and the reality for which it stood for. So, while you say they were fighting and dying for an idea and concept, the flag was their outward representation of the ideas and concepts they held dear, making it an icon, and worth dying for.
I wore this shirt to the airshow on Sept 11 last weekend and the Air Force Security Forces wouldn't quit staring at me.
http://www.rangerup.com/patriotday.html
Cincinnatus
09-17-10, 07:54
I wore this shirt to the airshow on Sept 11 last weekend and the Air Force Security Forces wouldn't quit staring at me.
http://www.rangerup.com/patriotday.html
Nice! :)
What amazes me is this:
I live in a free country full of what are supposed to be educated people. However I keep coming across very simplistic and short sighted approaches towards the concepts of both Freedom and The United States of America.
Anyone that says this kid shouldn't have the right to burn his flag, fly his flag proudly, flip it upside down, or walk around with it on a t-shirt for some anarcho punk band, isn't actually a true blooded American in my opinion. This is his First Amendment Right, and whatever I think shouldn't negate that. In fact "the people that died" for that, didn't die for an Icon (the flag) they died for an idea, a concept, and a reality (the freedom).
I'll have to look again, but I don't think anyone has said this kid doesn't have the right to his actions. There is a difference between supporting someone's right to do something, and supporting the action itself. Actions have consequences, and the consequences of this kid's actions are that some people will think he's a lowlife, and those people may even use their rights to tell him so.
Cincinnatus
09-17-10, 09:37
I'll have to look again, but I don't think anyone has said this kid doesn't have the right to his actions. There is a difference between supporting someone's right to do something, and supporting the action itself. Actions have consequences, and the consequences of this kid's actions are that some people will think he's a lowlife, and those people may even use their rights to tell him so.
Exactly. No one said he doesn't have the right to his free speech.
But the ACLU approach to say that all speech should be equally free of consequences is BS. In the legal sense, sure all speech should be equally free of consequences, but in the social sense, if someone calls your mother a whore, they may have the right to say it, but it doesn't mean they're not going to get socked in the puss for saying it.
What is missing from the whole ACLU moral-equivalency paradigm is the concept of HONOR. For someone to dishonor what one holds sacred and, to quote Merle "a way of life our men have fought and died to keep" is to be walking on the "fighting side" of any American with a sense of honor whereby he jealously guards the prestige of our traditions and our flag.
None of this means that the person does not have the RIGHT to their point of view, but that should only protect one from legal consequences, i.e. the government, from shutting down their speech; it does not and should not protect one from the social consequences of dishonor. Which in this case may not extend to be socked, but may lead to social ostricization, people telling him what they think of his point of view, or simply gals turning up their noses at him--never underestimate the power of a woman to enforce social standards. ;)
Cincinnatus
09-17-10, 09:52
Thanks, those of you, who have told me that this is a band. That very well may be so, and I am glad to know it, as it may mean this dude is simply clueless as to any political message. However, that is still not a pass as far as making said message benign.
I am reminded of one thing one of my Gunnys told me in the Corps, he said for us enlisted Marines to be careful what shirts you wear off duty overseas and told us the story of how one Marine went off base wearing a Rage Against the Machine shirt (a band) with a picture of Che on it. He had no clue his shirt was a political fireball, but he was killed by the locals for wearing Che on his shirt.
I have a few uncles that "proudly" display their Mexican flags all over the place. Sure, they have a right to do it, but it seriously honks me off when they do it wrong. One has a flag poll and puts the Mexican flag over the American flag. I don't know how many times I've gotten into arguments with them over this, and I'm not changing their minds about it, so I just choose to avoid them if at all possible.
I look at it like this... there's a flag code. It's an "advisory code" but for me, it commands respect. Doing anything that breaks the flag code is disrespectful to what it stands for and the little doucher should be kicked in the nuts. Maybe we should make up some "Che was a douche" T-shirt ehh?
I think you need to slow your roll there.
I know you like to adopt the prose of pseudo intellectual New York academia, but it is a fact that America is a place where little skinny jeans wearing maggots can in fact burn flags and wear t-shirts of Mao, Che, or whatever.
I certainly did not say they didn't have the right to do so; you're making counter points to the voices in your own head.
As for China, in your own words, engaging in freedom of expression can get you thrown in a gulag. That is what I said, only you added pyrite high brow references to artists, all while conceding to my two points:
You can bitch about being free, in a free nation. True?
Not so much in places like China and Iran where you might, if I can quote you "...be thrown in jail...". Also true, yes?
Listen, don't feel jilted and the need to puff up because I ignored your IM, as I found it not worth responding to.
I don't feel jilted at all. We don't agree, I don't care. Like Steyr said it is nice knowing where people stand on this forum. Since we're a diverse country made up of multiple viewpoints and differences I for one am pretty content with the fact that we sit on two sides of the same fence when it comes to these opinions.
I used your response in order to formulate a general response to all the whiners out there that focus their energy and angst on people that have the guts to express and use their freedom. Rather then complain about some punk that has a t-shirt why not actual do something that matters?
I might be wrong in my line of thought, but an icon is something that represents an idea, concept, and reality. So, if you think about it, the people who founded this country did die for the flag and the reality for which it stood for. So, while you say they were fighting and dying for an idea and concept, the flag was their outward representation of the ideas and concepts they held dear, making it an icon, and worth dying for.
Your right, but take it one step further and come to the conclusion that by making the Icon "holy" or "worthy" enough to die for, you run the risk of the Icon becoming more powerful then the idea itself, and thus negating it.
That is the case in these situations.
Every time someone decides to bully someone else into the "appropriate" use of the flag, they are in essence spitting on it.
Cincinnatus
09-17-10, 11:54
Every time someone decides to bully someone else into the "appropriate" use of the flag, they are in essence spitting on it.
That's bass ackwards.
It morally equivocates both sides of the issue and contrary to what you may believe, both sides are not equal in this scenario. There is a right and there is a wrong, and before you say I am being narrow-minded, realize that it is possible to be so open minded that your brain can fall out. I am fully cognizant of teleological relativist arguments on ethics and I reject them. This relativist, teleological approach is to consider honor a nonentity. To value the flag is not spitting on it, as you would have it; such a construction is to do the opposite of what you claim it does. You cliam it denigrates the flag to defend it where in fact that is to render the flag worthless. The Founders did not hold to this ACLU approach to Freedom of Speech where those who spit on the flag are braver and more courageous than those who insist it be honored. Such a premise morally equivocates one type of courage with another when all types of courage are not in fact equally valid or equally venerable. To die courageously for a good cause is noble; to die courageously for a bad cause , unfortunately, is not on the same moral plane. So it is possible to have misplaced courage or courage for the wrong reasons. Dieing for a lie is to die for nothing. (That is, if one is dieing for ideology and not to defend one's brothers). Balling up to spit on the flag is misplaced courage and courage "in the wrong direction" so to speak.
Yeah I posted before I thought it thru, I never went to college so that experience was lost on me. I feel as tho I didnt miss anything.
Your punctuation might be better.
Your right, but take it one step further and come to the conclusion that by making the Icon "holy" or "worthy" enough to die for, you run the risk of the Icon becoming more powerful then the idea itself, and thus negating it.
That is the case in these situations.
Every time someone decides to bully someone else into the "appropriate" use of the flag, they are in essence spitting on it.
Couldn't agree more. It's a silly thing to get upset about.
[QUOTE=HK45;761280]Your punctuation might be better.[/QUOTE
Frankly, sir, I dont really care.
It's a punk rock band... who gives a shit? Why not do a teeny tiny bit of research and find out why the band's named that? Their type of punk music is similar to Blink 182 in tempo & pace and I would think taking a look at their lyrics before condemning them might help as well. From their website http://www.anti-flag.com/AB10.php.
..... Unfortunately for us, we still didn't have a name! While Pat and I had already used the name Anti-Flag years earlier in our other band we had been kicking around the idea of using it again. Why? Well, it was like this... the name was originally inspired as a result of the late 80's Pittsburgh scene being infiltrated by a bunch of ass holes who toted the slogan, "Freedom not fascism". Well, that would've been great if these jerks practiced what they preached, but unfortunately, their idea of punk rock was VERY fascist! They took to sporting the American flag on their jackets, saying the pledge of allegiance to the flag, and (like the bunch of goons they were) beating the **** out of each other and anyone who got in the way. (basically they were just macho jock types who happened to have gotten into punk) At shows I would see these ****ers sporting their flags singing along to the Sub Humans, Exploited, Circle Jerks, whoever happened to be on tour, and I would wonder why? Weren't these bands completely speaking out against everything these "punx" believed in? It seemed to me that these kids were really missing the point to it all. They needed to look "fascism" up in the dictionary so they could learn that fascism controls the masses by 1. Promoting extreme nationalism, and 2. Using systematic violence and terror. (To these kids credit they were against racism but they failed to realize that you can be anti racist and still be a fascist!)
With that in mind, even though we had already used the name Anti-Flag we felt like it was a name that could still say a lot about the current state of the punk rock community and the world as a whole. Our thinking was that people wouldn't so easily be able to treat our band as entertainment, but instead it would be a vehicle that would force them to think. THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH US! We just wanted to make a point that we weren't there ONLY to entertain, we had something to say, there was a fundamental belief behind the band. So, the night of our show at WRCT we walked through the doors as Anti-Flag. (****in' right!) Why did we put the hyphen in the middle of "anti" and "flag"? I'd like to be able to tell you that it's a symbol of defiance, we were snubbing the use of proper English to show our hatred for modern society, etc., etc... Unfortunately, the truth is, we were all just too dumb to know the correct use of a hyphen.
It's a punk rock band... who gives a shit? Why not do a teeny tiny bit of research and find out why the band's named that? Their type of punk music is similar to Blink 182 in tempo & pace and I would think taking a look at their lyrics before condemning them might help as well. From their website http://www.anti-flag.com/AB10.php.
Thank you Irish.
Army Chief
09-17-10, 19:11
I could make a compelling argument for either school of thought, and I would hope that most of us understand the Constitution well enough to have a sufficient grounding to do the same.
I do think, however, that in our fervor to defend our turf of choice, we have overlooked a fundamental principle of a civilized society: that of mutually-agreed-upon values that serve the greater good in society. We've become so enamored with individual rights that we've lost sight of the old adage that "your right to swing your fist through the air ends where the tip of my nose begins."
Free speech is something to protect, surely, but where we once agreed that certain things were offensive, injurious or in poor taste, today we place the onus upon the objector, as if it were his problem that such things should give him pause. Social standards of decency, decorum and deference to common virtues are long gone, and any attempt to embrace traditional values, mores or standards is branded as intolerance.
The problem here is that some issues go beyond the annoyance or confrontational stage: some of them are patently offensive, and deserving of a response. If the desecration of our flag is one of those things that represents the "tip of your nose," then it would be nice to think that there were enough like-minded Americans who would agree that enough is enough, and shame those who abuse free speech simply for the associated shock value of the act.
Unfortunately, I am not wholly persuaded that there are, and while it would surely be more satisfying to raise the level of pain for such overt ignorance, I can't quite get around a very different principle from Romans 12:18: If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Easier said than done, no doubt.
AC
you're absolutely free in our society to make an ass of yourself. yes it has consequences.
I mean you can even take a bastard like fred phelps (the lawyer/"minister" of the westboro baptist church.. you know the god hates soldiers/fags/america/etc guy) totally dispicable human being, but in doing what he does it's forced people to think about what he's saying and reject (99% of sane people anyway do this) what he's saying, and join forces with causes of freedom and sanity. In quite a few cases causes that he is rallying against (veterans organizations, gay rights, etc) will set up a booth opposite his little demonstrations and rake in donations all day. :D
variablebinary
09-17-10, 23:05
Rather then complain about some punk that has a t-shirt why not actual do something that matters?
Meaning what exactly?
Meaning what exactly?
Well you could do like Irish did, and do research on the subject before responding! You may educate yourself on the issues you talk about before you make an obviously short sighted statement that you think proves how your pre-determined opinion is the only truth in the world.
Or you could teach a kid to swim. Play soccer.
Or grow a garden. Go hunting with your family.
Get some target practice in.
Read a book about something that you know nothing about, written by an author you've never heard of. Who knows, be creative!
Cincinnatus
09-20-10, 08:59
Why not do a teeny tiny bit of research and find out why the band's named that? .
If you're going to call something "Anti-flag", I don't care if it's a band, a pink rabbit, or a Satanic Cult, it is up to the communicator of their message to make their message clear, not on me, the beholder to intuitively understand it. The onus is on them to make their message clear--what am I supposed to do, see someone wearing a shirt that says "The Constitutiton is a Steaming Pile of Shit" and type that into a search engine before I decide it's anti-American? That is absurd.
If you're going to call something "Anti-flag", I don't care if it's a band, a pink rabbit, or a Satanic Cult, it is up to the communicator of their message to make their message clear, not on me, the beholder to intuitively understand it. The onus is on them to make their message clear--what am I supposed to do, see someone wearing a shirt that says "The Constitutiton is a Steaming Pile of Shit" and type that into a search engine before I decide it's anti-American? That is absurd.
Comminucation is not a one way street. It is up to both parties to communicate to eachother; maybe if you asked the kid what the shirt meant and been a part of the actual communication you would've saved your self so much anguish over this bands name, and your misinterpretation of it. It is not 100% one or the others responsibility to make sure someone "Understands" every nuance of every phrase or statement in a communication. You can only imply or infer things so much, you cannot force someone to see exactly what you mean; especially not with 2 words scribbled on a t-shirt...
I've had so many people misunderstand and assume things about me based on my appearance or my clothes, and it is rediculous. When they actually take the time to sit down and engage me in a conversation, they usually end up pleasently surprised instead of being confued/misinformed/angry.
Why not talk to people and see what things mean, and actually comunnicate with them, instead of passing harsh judgment without researching what you are judging in the first place.
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