Our nutty public education system

[500grains]

8 Year Old Boy Expelled from School for 2 Years for Toy Gun




Burgos [age 8] was suspended from school in November after a teacher found a toy gun in his backpack.

...

School board officials said the rules are quite clear and that the toy gun constituted a weapon. A school board report on the incident mentions that Samuel showed the toy gun to another student and it was capable of firing projectiles.

That's all it takes for it to be considered a weapon.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Child-Gets-Expelled-For-Toy-Gun---a-Year-Later.html

[Mac5.56]

"Constituted a Weapon". How?

This still doesn't beat the kid that was expelled for the Lego Police Officer, but this is close. Kids make mistakes. If grew up in this climate of fear, 80% of my graduating class would not have diplomas because of expulsions over stuff like this.

[Bill Bryant]

My mother has a picture of me on my first day of school, the day I entered first grade. A day before, at my birthday party, I was given a matched pair of chrome plated cowboy revolvers, a belt holster, and a big red cowboy hat. In the picture, I'm heading off to school wearing the whole kit, proud as I could be.

I'm glad I didn't shoot someone my first day of first grade. I do wish, though, that I had been expelled for a year. Playing with my revolvers and tinkertoys would have been much more fun than Mrs. Cope and arithmetic!

[Belmont31R]

Conditioning kids to associate guns = weapons that cause harm, and get you in trouble.

[CarlosDJackal]

I remember wealthy classmates (they were the only ones who could afford them) would bring their air rifles to school so we could do some target shooting out in the playing fields or in the Rock Garden.

All I could afford was a homemade slingshot.

[HES]

Then you have my son, age 10, max of Dr. Evil and Jokey Smurf and a fierce libertarian. He recently had to make a home made book cover. He adorned it with the seals of the USA, USMC, National Colors, an Eagle, and to top it all off, a huge picture of crossed rifles. I asked him if he knew what trouble he could get in and he said yes, but he would like to see them justify giving him trouble for simply showing the symbol of the Infantry.

He is tired of not even being able to make his hands into a symbolic representation of a gun for playing "cops and robbers" "soldier and jihadist" or "Halo"

I told him to go forth and sin some more.

[THCDDM4]

Just 1 reason out of thousands why we shouldn't put our children into Government indoctrination camps; err-a I mean "public Schools".

Man, at this rate I hate to think of how bad it will be in just a few years...

[Bill Bryant]

I've been a high school teacher for almost 20 years, and I've never taught in a public school. I've raised two wonderful children, and neither has ever attended a public school.

One nice thing about home schooling--we did a lot of that, and private school as well--is that you can not just bring firearms to school but include them in the curriculum!

[500grains]

I know a high school kid who took a white t-shirt and with black magic marker, he wrote Thomas Jefferson quotes all over it. The principal sent him home because the content of the quotes was "inappropriate".

[Moose-Knuckle]

Hey but at least they can't pray, salute the flag, or other such nonsense. Now back to your studies of why the US is cause to blame for all the troubles in the world and your alternative lifestyle lessons. :rolleyes:

[Mac5.56]

Hey but at least they can't pray, salute the flag, or other such nonsense. Now back to your studies of why the US is cause to blame for all the troubles in the world and your alternative lifestyle lessons. :rolleyes:

First 500Grain, that is really funny about the kid and quotes. It doesn't surprise me.

Moose, I grew up in one of the most conservative areas of the country, and I got the complete opposite of what your saying the public schools teach. I got a skewed version of history that literally glossed over every single mistake this country had ever made, and discouraged any dialogue or debate about the possibility there was more to history then the sugar coated realities they were presenting to us.

To put it simply, I was the kid 500Grain described, getting kicked out for citing history in creative ways.

And the day prayers are introduced into the schools is the day America no longer exists.

But that aside this insistence towards "protection" of our youth is absolutely nutty. My wife and I are worried about what will happen in ten years if when we have a kid, and he mentions his parents are gun owners, or talks about going to the shooting range over the weekend with his father? How long until the simple mention of a firearm brings a knock on the door by a social service worker with a police officer in tow?

That's what I'm worried about.

[skyugo]

i seem to recall kids bringing in cap guns being ok when i was in school. you'd get a stern talking to if you fired off caps in school though. :ph34r:

[Heavy Metal]

Conditioning kids to associate guns = weapons that cause harm, and get you in trouble.

And all that indoctrination goes to shit the same day as Johnny gets his first X-Box.

[skyugo]

And all that indoctrination goes to shit the same day as Johnny gets his first X-Box.

next stop-his first HK product :o

[Moose-Knuckle]

Moose, I grew up in one of the most conservative areas of the country, and I got the complete opposite of what your saying the public schools teach. I got a skewed version of history that literally glossed over every single mistake this country had ever made, and discouraged any dialogue or debate about the possibility there was more to history then the sugar coated realities they were presenting to us.

To put it simply, I was the kid 500Grain described, getting kicked out for citing history in creative ways.

And the day prayers are introduced into the schools is the day America no longer exists.

But that aside this insistence towards "protection" of our youth is absolutely nutty. My wife and I are worried about what will happen in ten years if when we have a kid, and he mentions his parents are gun owners, or talks about going to the shooting range over the weekend with his father? How long until the simple mention of a firearm brings a knock on the door by a social service worker with a police officer in tow?

That's what I'm worried about.

I am not a church going man nor do I consider myself a "religious" person. With that said, the numbers speak for themsleves.


In 1962 and 1963, prayer in assemblies was banned in all American public schools. It was the singular most important event affecting the American nation at that time. Prior to 1963, American schools and school children enjoyed great stability. It all dramatically changed with the banning of prayer from school assemblies. Although other events could have impacted on American school children, such as the increasing levels of violence and sex on television and the media, the banning of prayer remains the most significant event affecting American scholars in the years of 1962 and 1963. Graphs and statistics show a marked deviation from these specific dates.

These prayers were non-denominational and learners were allowed the right to be excused from them. A typical example was:

Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessing upon us (morals and academic performance), our parents (family), our teachers (respect for authority) and our Country (social and economic).

The statistics given go up to the year 1988.

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected students. Since 1963:

*Premarital sexual activity increased over 200 percent (for girls alone, premarital sexual activity increased over 500 percent);

*Pregnancies to unwed mothers went up almost 400 percent;

*Gonorrhoea (Sexually Transmitted Disease) went up over 200 percent;

*Number of suicides increased over 400 percent.

These give rise to secondary consequences, such as:

*Only half of those who give birth before age 18 complete high school (as compared with 96 percent of those who postpone childbearing);

*On average they earn half as much money and are far more likely to be dependent on welfare. A negative cycle is created, with daughters falling pregnant during teenage years, thus leading to generations of unskilled peoples being dependent and trapped on welfare;

*Of those families headed by a mother age 14-25, two-thirds live below the poverty level.
The cost to the public of teenage pregnancies in 1985 alone was $16,65 billion.

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected academic achievement:

The Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) is an academic test measuring the developed verbal and mathematical reasoning skills of a student preparing to enter college. The three areas of SAT testing with individual documentation are SAT mathematics scores, SAT verbal scores, and SAT total scores (the combination of the mathematics and verbal scores).

*SAT Total Scores have declined steadily, dropping over 90 points from 1963 to 1980, to the lowest in the industrialised world. Although actual grades have risen, their SATS were decreasing. Hence academic standards have dropped to accommodate mediocrity.

*In 1950, 84 percent of college students knew that Manilla was the capital of the Philippines. In 1984 it had dropped to only 27 percent. “We cannot expect to be a world leader if our populace doesn’t even know who the rest of the world is!”

*SAT scores only began to improve after 1980 (after 17 years of continual decline). However this increase was attributed to the increase in private Christian schooling and homeschooling. Although in 1986, private schooling only made up 12,4% of the school going population, their academic performance was 3 to 5 times greater than their size (i.e. the number of top academic achievers came disproportionately from these private Christian schools). Some have argued that their greater academic performance is due to greater family affluence. However, studies confirm that parents who send their children to private schools have an income only marginally greater than the national average. Furthermore, in 1986 the average private school spent $1,100 per student annually as compared to the average public school’s annual expenditure of $3,752 per student. Yet private Christian schools produce three times more academic achievers at a third of the price. A very plausible is that prayer is not banned in private Christian schools.

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected moral standards:

Before prayer was removed from schools, polls among educators listed the top offences in public schools as:

1.Talking
2.Chewing gum
3.Making noise
4.Running in the halls
5.Getting out of turn in line
6.Wearing improper clothing
7.Not putting paper in wastebaskets

After prayer was removed from schools, polls among educators listed the top offences in public schools as:

1.Rape
2.Robbery
3.Assault
4.Burglary
5.Arson
6.Bombings
7.Murder
8.Suicide
9.Absenteeism
10.Vandalism
11.Extortion
12.Drug abuse
13.Alcohol abuse
14.Gang warfare
15.Pregnancies
16.Abortions
17.Venereal disease

(None of the previous top seven problems even make the list).

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected families:

Stability existed in the family during the years that students prayed daily for their families, however, since praying for families was banned:

*Divorce went up almost 120 percent;

*Single parent families went up 140 percent;

*Unmarried couples living together increased over 350 percent;

*Adultery increased nearly 300 percent.

These give rise to secondary consequences, such as:

*A dramatic increase in youth running away from home. All research points to “basic family instability”, such as divorce, single parent families, unmarried couples living together and adultery, as being the primary cause. Family breakdown is also associated with increase in physical and sexual abuse.

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected school violence:

*In 1985, on average, 24 teachers and 215 students were assaulted every day in California schools.

Furthermore a 1978 study revealed:

*Risk of violence to teenagers is greater in public schools than anywhere else.

*Nearly 2,5 million of the nation’s secondary school students had something worth more than a dollar stolen from them in a month.

*An estimated 282,000 secondary school students reported that they were attacked at school in a typical one-month period.

The high levels of violence in public schools equally affect teachers:

*5,200 were physically attacked in the period of one month.

*Nearly one-fifth of the attacks required medical treatment.

*Attacks on teachers were almost five times as likely to result in serious injury as attacks on students.

The banning of prayer in assemblies affected the state of the nation. Since 1962:

*The rate of violent crime has risen over 500 percent;

*National productivity has dropped over 80 percent;

*The per capita alcohol consumption has increased by 35 percent.

How can the simple eradication of prayer lead to so much damage?

It removes God’s blessing. “Whoever honours Me, I will honour. And whoever disregards Me, I will disregard” (1 Samuel 2:30). Prior to the expulsion of God from American public schools, America was elevated among the nations of the world in achievement, morality, productivity, stability, and reputation. Post 1962-63, America leads the western world in teenage pregnancies and highest illiteracy rates and are world leaders in violent crime, divorce, and illegal drug use.

And by removing any reference to God, you remove references to respect for authority (including teachers); absolute values used to condemn disrespect, adultery, covetousness, theft, murder, etc. replacing them with relativism and secular humanism - hence the resultant moral mess of removing prayer from school assemblies.

“In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths” (Proverbs 3:6).

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion…reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” George Washington.

Source - America: to pray or not to pray? By David Barton, 1988

In this day in age we have some public school systems that will not use terms like mother, father, husband, wife as they may offend couples of an alternative lifestyle. We have removed all mention of Christendom in the name of separation of church and state yet some public schools cater to Islam. Back in June of this year a story broke about an 8 year old Rhode Island boy who got into hot water for having plastic Army men glued to the brim of his ball cap for a career day event. In CA and MA there have been "sex ed" classes that have taught fisting. We are behind every other 1st world country in mathematics and science. I can go on and on with this stuff all the day long. My point is not to beat the Bible thumper's drum instead I was merely interjecting the facts of how all this "higher learning" is paying off for our nation.

[Jerm]

In 1962 and 1963, prayer in assemblies was banned in all American public schools. It was the singular most important event affecting the American nation at that time.....

Talk about a stretch.

There were various major cultural shifts going on at that time.

I think you could make a much stronger argument for the massive influx of women/mothers (particularly of young children) into the workforce and out of the home during the 60's as a (possibly the biggest) factor in those statistics. As well as many other things.

I wouldn't dispute that taking "sanctioned prayer" out of the schools may have been a symptom of the same type of cultural changes that led to those stats... Whether or not it (specifically) was a good thing aside... But to point to it as the primary cause? :rolleyes:

That's not a conclusion you can come to by looking at the evidence. That's a conclusion one has already reached and then attempts to present the evidence in such a way to support it.

[Avenger29]

Back in elementary school, I got fussed at for bringing a copy of Popular Mechanics to school to read during our reading time, because there was a photo of the LAPD SWAT team on the front, stacked up for an entry. That was like back in '96.

In HS, I had a buddy come back for his senior year after completing boot camp. He had a T-shirt for scoring expert with the handgun, IIRC. The T-shirt had a pair of crossed pistols. on the back. The administrators made him turn it inside out. to wear it.

[Mac5.56]

Yea Moose,

That all had to do with the removal of prayer from school...:rolleyes:

So let's get back on topic.

Has anyone ever heard of kids getting in trouble for mentioning that they shoot/own/enjoy firearms? This is something I am really interested in hearing about. I am really curious if it has happened, as I feel it is the next step.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Yea Moose,

That all had to do with the removal of prayer from school...:rolleyes:


You can rolleyes all you want, it's your luxury I merely presented the data that has been accumulated and the source. Not my research.


There were various major cultural shifts going on at that time.

Absolutely there were MANY other contributing factors, but I’d surmise that many will play the race card if I mention the desegregation of our school system or sexism for pointing out the women’s rights debacle. Social engineering events of the time like the “civil rights” movement, the initiation of the Welfare System, the advent of the drug culture, and the “feminists” movement all contributed to the turds in the bowl known as our public school system.

Back to the topic at hand.

What we are seeing now is what I like to refer to as the Pussification of the American Male. In school little boys can no longer be little boys. They can't play cops and robbers or Army men due to their little index fingers contorting into the shape of a pistol barrel and the bang bang sound effects they generate form their little mouths some how instigates domestic terrorism and the like. There have been youth league athletic associations that have quit keeping score because children mustn’t learn the value of hard work and accomplishment instead they need it ground in their young fertile mind’s that no one is better than anyone else and that there are no losers. Of course there cannot be any hint of a firearm at school whether it’s a picture of one on a cover of a magazine or an image of one on a t-shirt, after all the higher educators in their ivory towers feel that firearms are just and extension of our penis’s and thus evil and contemptible.

[Mac5.56]

You can rolleyes all you want, it's your luxury I merely presented the data that has been accumulated and the source. Not my research.


The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid. There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid. There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

Evidence? What else do you need other than to simply look at the current state of our public schools to see the decline? If what I have provided is merely here say then please provide the evidence in which you speak of to show how we have arrived at the current state of our public school system.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid. There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

What else do you need other than to simply look at the current state of our public schools? If the information that I have provided is bogus then I ask you to provide the evidence you so speak of showing otherwise.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid. There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

What else do you need other than to simply look at the current state of our public schools? If the information that I have provided is bogus then I ask you to provide the evidence you so speak of showing otherwise.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

I'm not quite sure you understand.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

I'm not quite sure you understand.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

I'm not quite sure you understand.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

It’s becoming evident that you do not understand.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

It’s becoming evident that you do not understand.

[Moose-Knuckle]

The simple accumulation of data does not make an argument valid.

Then do pray tell what does?


There has to be this important thing called evidence. Making a two lists then saying: "Look these lists prove my point." doesn't work.

If the information that I have provided is invalid then show me this evidence you speak of.


If you don't understand that there is no point in having this conversation.

It’s evident that you do not understand.

[Bill Bryant]

The prayer in school ban was a result, not a cause, of sweeping cultural change in America in the 60s. The causes go back through Darwin, Freud, Wundt, Marx, Hegel, etc., to Locke, Voltaire, Rousseau, Bacon, Descartes, etc., and perhaps ultimately to people like Epicurus.