casing really stuck!

[buzby]

i need help getting this out!

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/feedbag80/gun%20stuff/DSC00663.jpg

rifle was being used in a local guard/reserve m16 rifle tournament. another marine was shooting it in the relay before me. he fired 3 out of four courses of fire when the first case got stuck. after a couple motarings it came out. he told me about the issue and i dropped in a spent case to see if it would get stuck, and of course it did. i again mortared the hell out of it with no luck. then i tied a loop of 550 cord to the charging handle, inserted my boot heal, and after several very hard stomps the rim of the case gave out.

it was very hot out and the rifle and ammo had been in the sun all day. i took the rifle home and it sat overnight. i sprayed some penetrating oil down the barrel and tried using a cleaning rod to tap it out with no luck.

we had to provide our own ammo for the the match, and since most of the marines are on a budget we shot silver bear 62 gr hp. ive used this ammo in this rifle and my le6920 before, the day before in fact to check zero, with no issues.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/feedbag80/gun%20stuff/DSC00674.jpg

the rifle is a m16a4 clone. its a franken rifle, but i tried to use the best parts available to get as close as i could to my issued FN rifle

sabre defense 1/7 gov't profile 20" barrel F marked fsb
sabre defense lower receiver
bcm auto bolt carrier group
bcm upper receiver
bcm charging handle
stag lower parts group
stag a2 stock
colt cary handle
knights m5 rail

[Thomas M-4]

How big of a tap / hammer are you using?

[Pumpkinheaver]

Use a cleaning rod and tap it out.


Yup, have you tried this yet?

[Thomas M-4]

I tried to change my first post after rereading it did you use a hammer?
To tap it out ? How much force did you use?

[devildogljb]

only thing that would seem to work is use a cleaning rod and a mallet or small hammer as the other posters have suggested

[Ned Christiansen]

Any time you're going to tap something out with a rod, confirm it is a fired case by gaging the depth with the rod. With a live round, if tapping turns to hammering, there is a possibility of the powder becoming so packed that it sets off the primer. Bang-ouch or bang-thud..... neither a good scenario.

[buzby]

the casing was empty when i dropped it in. i did check to make sure the barrel was clear by inserting the rod all the way down and marking it, pulling it out and checking the length.

i started by dropping the rod into the barrel. then to slamming the rod down hard enough to worry about damaging the rod. i havent tried hammering yet, for worry about the plastic handle on the cleaning rod.

the force it took to rip the case rim surprised me. if i where to hammer the rod with the same force, could there be a possibility of damage to the barrell? i would rather not destroy the rod, but it can be sacrificed to get the rifle back up.

im guessing this is an ammo issue. but maybe i should have the chamber checked?

[Blankwaffe]

I typically use a USGI cleaning rod to clear stuck cases.Insert the assembled rod sections into the bore and ease it down to the cartridge case...then tap lightly with a brass hammer.If the case is stuck badly,a few squirts of penetrating oil/CLP down the bore and after a few minutes of soak time and I try the cleaning rod again.Clean chamber to spot free shine and punch the bore/chamber a few times to remove any residue.

As a general rule I try to clean the chamber every 200-400 rounds with a chamber brush and solvent/CLP when using steel cased ammo if possible.If I get a stuck case,I clean the chamber immediately and continue on with my business.

I have not used Silver Bear in sometime,but what I have seen in the past is that they,to include Barnaul,Brown Bear and Wolf Military Classic,continued to use the red case mouth sealer that was found years ago to gum up the throat of the chamber and cause cases to stick.This was initially blamed on the laquer coated cases,but was eventually linked to the red case sealer.
Wolf dropped the red case mouth sealer on the black box ammo due to the issue years ago.
At any rate,if the Silver Bear has the red case mouth sealer I'd make a habit of soaking a chamber brush in Hoppe's No.9 or Kroil Aero oil and clean the chamber every couple hundred rounds to ensure the red sealant is not developing a layer of heat activated glue.

Also dont forget,if you start shooting steel cased ammo,continue shooting steel cased ammo....do not mix brass and steel case ammunition.If your going to switch to brass case ammo clean the chamber first.I do the same in a reversed situation as well.
HTH

[Grumpy MSG]

I looked at your post, have some questions, some suggestions and some thoughts. From your post:

he told me about the issue and i dropped in a spent case to see if it would get stuck, and of course it did. i again mortared the hell out of it with no luck. then i tied a loop of 550 cord to the charging handle, inserted my boot heal, and after several very hard stomps the rim of the case gave out.
The fired case you dropped in the chamber is the one that is stuck, right? Was the fired case, fired in that rifle?
If the fired case was fired in a different rifle, it was fire-formed to the chamber of the rifle that it was fired in. Your rifle may have a tighter chamber than the rifle it was fired in. When you let the bolt forward on your rifle, you were in effect, attempting to resize the brass. If you hit the forward assist, you were really knocking it home in the chamber and making it real tight. If the rifle was hot from firing, it is possible that the coating on the steel casing could have softened and hardened as it cooled, acting like an adhesive. If it was more than 10 or 15 minutes since the last time it was fired, you should be pretty safe in that respect.

i took the rifle home and it sat overnight. i sprayed some penetrating oil down the barrel and tried using a cleaning rod to tap it out with no luck.
When you let it sit over night, did you keep the rifle standing up? standing up would allow gravity to help the oil creep down along between the case and the chamber. When you tried to tap the case out with a cleaning rod did you use a hammer or just try to use the cleaning rod as a slide-hammer or smack it with your hand? My suggestion would be to remove the bolt carrier and charging handle from the upper, place the rear of the upper receiver on a block of wood on the ground. take an issue type steel sectional rod and insert it in the bore, female end toward the fired case, assemble the rod in the shortest length possible( it only needs to protrude from the muzzle a little bit) take a block of wood place it on top of the rod and hit it with a hammer. if the rod drives into the case, you may need to add one section and hit it again. (I'd check on my AR but I don't have a sectional cleaning rod anymore, only an Otis kit). The case should pop loose. You need to clean and scrub that chamber until it is spotless. What I think has happened is the coating from the steel cases has melted, stuck to the chamber and caused you to have a tight chamber problems. It wouldn't hurt for you to have somebody check the headspace on your rifle too.

we had to provide our own ammo for the the match, and since most of the marines are on a budget we shot silver bear 62 gr hp. ive used this ammo in this rifle and my le6920 before, the day before in fact to check zero, with no issues.
I won't feed my ARs the steel cased ammo because of the horror cases I have heard of and seen with it. I have heard the whole "they don't use lacquer, they use a polymer coating now so it is a thing of the past, but I won't shoot that stuff. In a competition environment using a lower quality ammunition is not going to help your competitiveness. You can almost always get a 100 round box of Federal 55 grains at Walmart for less than $40. Years ago when the M16A2 was just becoming competitive, it was discovered that the M193 (55 grain) would outshoot the M855 (62 grain) out to 300 yards. Teams would use it for shorter ranges and switch to the 69-77 grain bullets for the longer shooting. Good Luck with your rifle!!!

[Iraqgunz]

Once you get it out talk to someone and see if they can check the chamber. I have a sneaky suspicion it may be on the tight side.




i need help getting this out!

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/feedbag80/gun%20stuff/DSC00663.jpg

rifle was being used in a local guard/reserve m16 rifle tournament. another marine was shooting it in the relay before me. he fired 3 out of four courses of fire when the first case got stuck. after a couple motarings it came out. he told me about the issue and i dropped in a spent case to see if it would get stuck, and of course it did. i again mortared the hell out of it with no luck. then i tied a loop of 550 cord to the charging handle, inserted my boot heal, and after several very hard stomps the rim of the case gave out.

it was very hot out and the rifle and ammo had been in the sun all day. i took the rifle home and it sat overnight. i sprayed some penetrating oil down the barrel and tried using a cleaning rod to tap it out with no luck.

we had to provide our own ammo for the the match, and since most of the marines are on a budget we shot silver bear 62 gr hp. ive used this ammo in this rifle and my le6920 before, the day before in fact to check zero, with no issues.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p157/feedbag80/gun%20stuff/DSC00674.jpg

the rifle is a m16a4 clone. its a franken rifle, but i tried to use the best parts available to get as close as i could to my issued FN rifle

sabre defense 1/7 gov't profile 20" barrel F marked fsb
sabre defense lower receiver
bcm auto bolt carrier group
bcm upper receiver
bcm charging handle
stag lower parts group
stag a2 stock
colt cary handle
knights m5 rail

[mr_smiles]

I've had that happen in a few ak's but due to 5.56 being mixed into 7.62 and people not paying attention when they load magazines.

It shoot's it just fails to eject, I'm sure the bullet bounces around but it's an AK, you can't wreck an AK :D.

As mentioned above, cleaning rod and force and it'll come out, unless you tear the jacket, than you need to get a case extractor.

[HeliPilot]

+1 to the cleaning rod method. I've seen this work over and over. In my experience the steel case ammo is just asking to get stuck.
Dirty chamber + steel case + heat = stuck case
Just my 2cents.

Just out of curiosity have you had the same results with brass cased ammo??

[rob_s]

Steel cased ammo appears to be increasingly sticking in chambers, although this is the first I've heard of someone intentionally doing it. When they stick, they are REALLY sticking and generally the case rim gets ripped off from forcing the bolt open and the case has to be driven out with a rod. This is a two-man job because you need someone to hold the bolt back. If not you will bang the case out it will land on the bolt face the bolt will get driven back enough to overcome the bolt catch and the bolt will slam home on the empty case again, requiring you to start all over (ask me how I know this).

It may well be that you have a tight chamber, but it may also not be the issue. I have had this happen on personally owned Colts (3 of them) and personally owned as well as T&E BCM (3) and Spike's Tactical (1). All of my issues, however, have been with Wolf of various varieties with the 75 grain being the worst by double the frequency. I can generally get 200 rounds on a spotless chamber before I start getting stuck cases, and once I do get them it happens as often as once per magazine until the chamber is completely cleaned and the cycle begins again.

I have about 900 rounds of Brown Bear 62 grain HP through two BCM 14.5" mid-lengths right now with no similar issues. I am not anywhere near ready to call it "good", but this is certainly an improvement from my previous experience, enough so that I will be ordering more of the identical ammo to continue testing.

[pezboy]

I looked at your post, have some questions, some suggestions and some thoughts. From your post:

The fired case you dropped in the chamber is the one that is stuck, right? Was the fired case, fired in that rifle?
If the fired case was fired in a different rifle, it was fire-formed to the chamber of the rifle that it was fired in. Your rifle may have a tighter chamber than the rifle it was fired in. When you let the bolt forward on your rifle, you were in effect, attempting to resize the brass. If you hit the forward assist, you were really knocking it home in the chamber and making it real tight. If the rifle was hot from firing, it is possible that the coating on the steel casing could have softened and hardened as it cooled, acting like an adhesive. If it was more than 10 or 15 minutes since the last time it was fired, you should be pretty safe in that respect.

When you let it sit over night, did you keep the rifle standing up? standing up would allow gravity to help the oil creep down along between the case and the chamber. When you tried to tap the case out with a cleaning rod did you use a hammer or just try to use the cleaning rod as a slide-hammer or smack it with your hand? My suggestion would be to remove the bolt carrier and charging handle from the upper, place the rear of the upper receiver on a block of wood on the ground. take an issue type steel sectional rod and insert it in the bore, female end toward the fired case, assemble the rod in the shortest length possible( it only needs to protrude from the muzzle a little bit) take a block of wood place it on top of the rod and hit it with a hammer. if the rod drives into the case, you may need to add one section and hit it again. (I'd check on my AR but I don't have a sectional cleaning rod anymore, only an Otis kit). The case should pop loose. You need to clean and scrub that chamber until it is spotless. What I think has happened is the coating from the steel cases has melted, stuck to the chamber and caused you to have a tight chamber problems. It wouldn't hurt for you to have somebody check the headspace on your rifle too.

I won't feed my ARs the steel cased ammo because of the horror cases I have heard of and seen with it. I have heard the whole "they don't use lacquer, they use a polymer coating now so it is a thing of the past, but I won't shoot that stuff. In a competition environment using a lower quality ammunition is not going to help your competitiveness. You can almost always get a 100 round box of Federal 55 grains at Walmart for less than $40. Years ago when the M16A2 was just becoming competitive, it was discovered that the M193 (55 grain) would outshoot the M855 (62 grain) out to 300 yards. Teams would use it for shorter ranges and switch to the 69-77 grain bullets for the longer shooting. Good Luck with your rifle!!!

Also, since this is a semi auto the cases will get larger while cooling outside of the rifle. It isn't a good idea to even put cases fired from your own rifle back in the chamber.
Dustin

[mtdawg169]

If all else fails, could he drop the upper into a freezer, causing the barrel steel and case to retract from each other enough to tap it loose? I'm not sure if this would work, but it's an idea.

I would bet that most of the oil has spilled into the case itself and isn't working it's way down in between the chamber and the case. Be sure you get enough oil in there and it ought to come out with a light tapping from a hammer.

[LONGBOWAH]

Like pezboy almost said, once fired, a case will just about never go back in any chamber...hence the re-sizing step in reloading.

Pound it out...I take it they didn't rod you off the range or you could have used their rod to get it out.

[buzby]

casing is out!

i took it in to see the armorer. he said he would have it right out. he dropped in a GI rod and tapped on it with a hammer, nogo. he then inverted the upper, with the rod still in the barrel and slammed it on his workbench. the rod sunk about a half inch into the table, but the case remained. after a comment about how it was really in there good, he slammed the rod against the block wall, and out came the casing.

silver bear was not my first choice of ammo for a competition, but it had to be ball (no match ammo). and since we were paying for it out of pocket, and most of the guys are low on funds, its what was purchased.

i also think the chamber may be on the tight side. the marine that shot the rifle that morning was only able to shoot three out of four courses of fire, and still took third place individual overall! so the thing is accurate.

the rest of us borrowed some very old m16a2's from the air guard. none of us shot up to our usual standards, but we still took home 6 awards. we also got some good schwag from larue tactical, blackhawk, tier one group, and several other sponsors that i cant remember

[devildogljb]

glad to hear you finally got it out, sounds like it was really in there with what the armorer did to get it out.

[Suwannee Tim]

When you say "mortared the rifle" you mean you bang the rifle but against a hard surface hoping to cause extraction? Is that procedure commonly accepted? Seems to me that placing the rifle muzzle down and putting the lube in the barrel extension would be more effective. Putting it down the muzzle, most of it will go into the case where it does no good unless you put in enough to overtop the case. A little puddle sitting in the barrel extension would provide a reservoir of lube to do the job.

[orionz06]

I have about 900 rounds of Brown Bear 62 grain HP through two BCM 14.5" mid-lengths right now with no similar issues. I am not anywhere near ready to call it "good", but this is certainly an improvement from my previous experience, enough so that I will be ordering more of the identical ammo to continue testing.

I have around 1900 rounds into a Noveske N4 barrel without issue. I have cleaned the chamber once at best. It has seen a healthy amount of weaponshield though. Minimum range trip of 200 rounds.

[buzby]

When you say "mortared the rifle" you mean you bang the rifle but against a hard surface hoping to cause extraction?

yes, while holding the charging handle

[buzby]

I have around 1900 rounds into a Noveske N4 barrel without issue. I have cleaned the chamber once at best. It has seen a healthy amount of weaponshield though. Minimum range trip of 200 rounds.

my le6920 runs great on this stuff too. and i've run it a few times in the A4 as well. not in any high round counts, but it only had about 60 rounds through it when it started having issues

[mike_556]

yes, while holding the charging handle

AFAIK this was widely accepted as clearing a stuck case, especially in an emergency or combat situation.....That may be changed now however.....