Full Length 1911 Guide Rod vs. USGI

[ca_fireman19]

I am relatively new to 1911's and looking for some guidance. I recently bought a new Kimber Stainless II. As I'm sure most of you know, most of the Kimber line come with a full length guide rod. Normally I would think that a full length rod would be the best choice since all of my other pistols have them, however, the 1911 was specifically designed with a shorter version. I know there are benefits for the USGI size rod, one hand cocking, for instance, but what is the BEST all around choice for a carry piece? I plan on using this piece for on duty carry and off duty concealed carry. So, with that said, please let the debate begin.

[Pappabear]

I think that most on this forum go with USGI , shorter version. I have 4 1911's and none have the full length guide rod. I switched out my Guide rod initially on my TRP with a Wilson FLGR, and it worked fine. But I went back to a Ed Brown / USGI to be consistent.

[DocGKR]

I've been carrying 1911's for 25 years. A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will NOT use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. Likewise, I would NEVER use a FLGR on a duty pistol; stick with the short USGI.

I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution--that rules out most current production Kimbers. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two plus decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or G21sf.

[John_Wayne777]

On a carry gun a FLGR serves no real purpose. It gives the illusion of a tighter fit between the frame and the slide.

As for using that 1911 for carry, I would strongly encourage running at least 1,000 rounds through it (including a bunch of your intended carry ammo) to make sure it actually functions first. I wouldn't carry a 1911 I hadn't put through such an evaluation unless it was hand-built by Larry Vickers.

[Seraph]

To make a long story short, ditch the FLGR. It does nothing for you, except to add a little complication to disassembly and reassembly.

[Mr. Smith]

The guide rod is not a problem of epic levels but it is a little heavier.
The GI was fine for the first 75 years or so just a point.


http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy358/SuperiorFirearms/1911%20opperator/KYS_8921.jpg

The firing pin block safety is the real problem I have built lots of guns for people who use them in places around the world that are not too nice.
To this day no one has asked me to put some extra parts in the ignition system of my gun just encase I drop it out of a helicopter or something.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy358/SuperiorFirearms/1911%20opperator/KYS_8924.jpg

[ca_fireman19]

What are the odds of the short GI guide rod binding and/or breaking the recoil spring? I have a GI guide and plug already, so maybe I'll just throw that in there. Is there a RELIABILITY difference between the GI and FLGR?

Since it was brought up, what exactly is the "Schwartz firing pin safety"? How does this differ from say a Springfield 1911 or even a Wilson Combat or Colt? Is this a part I can swap out or is this like converting my gasoline powered Volvo to run diesel (not worth the time, effort or money)?

[DocGKR]

"I plan on using this piece for on duty carry and off duty concealed carry."

I would strongly suggest that you are NOT yet ready for the extra care and maintenance a 1911 requires for serious real world duty/CCW purposes until you fully understand the intricacies of the system--that would include knowing the pros and cons of GI, series 80, and Schwartz ignition components.

You will be far better off getting an S&W M&P45 w/Apex Duty kit and spend the additional time and financial resources on good training classes and ammo.

Since you are in CA, feel free to contact me offline if you desire additional assistance.

[YVK]

Is there a RELIABILITY difference between the GI and FLGR?


No, there is not, but FLGR is simply unnecessary and complicates disassembly a bit.




Since it was brought up, what exactly is the "Schwartz firing pin safety"? How does this differ from say a Springfield 1911 or even a Wilson Combat or Colt? Is this a part I can swap out or is this like converting my gasoline powered Volvo to run diesel (not worth the time, effort or money)?

1911 come with and without firing pin safety that prevents gun from discharge when gun is dropped. Springers and Wilsons come in traditional form, without FP safety; so do many but not all Colts. These guns don't have any build-in mechanism against incidental discharge when dropped; they are considered safe due to historically low rates of such discharges, although it is not an impossibility. A debatable way of adding extra protection is to use light (titanium) firing pin coupled with extra-strength FP spring.

Some Colts, known as series 80, Kimbers, and SW 1911 come with FP safety. In Colts it is disengaged by pressing on trigger; it is proven to be a reliable system aside from issues mentioned above. In Kimbers and SW it is disengaged by pressing on grip safety, is known as Schwartz safety and is proven to be crap.

As somebody who owned a couple Kimbers, and still own a couple of Colts, here is free and unsolicited advice:
- for CC purposes, get something else.
- for purposes of learning 1911, get something else. Series 70 or 80 Colt would be my choice, or early pre-series II Kimber.

[jwperry]

<Thread hijack>
Do Sig 1911s use a FPB safety of any form?
/hijack

[JonInWA]

SIG 1911s use the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety.

Best, Jon

[Metallicus]

There is a great debate even between pistol smiths, on whether it is necessary or even dangerous. Les Baer is famously known for disregarding them as pointless pieces that make your gun heavier, Dave Lauck another highly regarded pistolsmith says otherwise.

"Special Note regarding recoil spring guide rods and the 1911 autopistol:The controversy continues about what type of recoil spring guide rod to use in your 1911 autopistol. there seems to be about an even split beteen those who prefer a short rod and those who prefer a full length recoil spring guide rod. People on each side of the issue insist their position is the 'right' position. Here is some information from Dave Lauck on the matter:
- The short spring guide rod and standard spring plug allows the pistol to be a little easier to disassemble. This system is used on D&L service model 1911s for those who may be a little less experienced with the 1911.
- A full length guide rod is used in the D&L Professional model because it does offer some benefits. (The FLGR setup is also simple to disassemble by those with a little more experience with the 1911.) The benefits of the FLGR system include smoother and more consistant tracking of the slide on the frame for each and every shot. More importantly the FLGR stops the live round in the chamber from being extracted from the chamber and ejected from the pistol if the front underside of the slide is slammed into a solid cover object during live fire when the thumb safety is off. Without the FLGR in place the slide will go back far enough to eject the live round from the chamber, but not nessessarily far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine. You can wind up with an empty chamber when you need it if this happens. A FLGR can prevent this occurance, which of course, could be a critical factor in a live situation. "

taken from http://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_1911.html
9/21/2010

I personally have both on my 1911s, I am in the process of removing all guide rods,though, for aesthetics and uniformity rather then functionality.

[MarshallDodge]

I am relatively new to 1911's and looking for some guidance. I recently bought a new Kimber Stainless II. As I'm sure most of you know, most of the Kimber line come with a full length guide rod. Normally I would think that a full length rod would be the best choice since all of my other pistols have them, however, the 1911 was specifically designed with a shorter version. I know there are benefits for the USGI size rod, one hand cocking, for instance, but what is the BEST all around choice for a carry piece? I plan on using this piece for on duty carry and off duty concealed carry. So, with that said, please let the debate begin.
If you are going to keep the Kimber and use it for carry then go out and run the snot out of it. Take it to some classes, run it through some drills, and get as familiar with it as possible before trusting your life with it. Get some good mags, my favorite brand is the Chip McCormick Power Mags but 1911's are sometimes weird about the mags they like so take a look at Wilson and Tripp mags as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about the guide rod.

[ColdDeadHands]

There is a great debate even between pistol smiths, on whether it is necessary or even dangerous. Les Baer is famously known for disregarding them as pointless pieces that make your gun heavier, Dave Lauck another highly regarded pistolsmith says otherwise.

"Special Note regarding recoil spring guide rods and the 1911 autopistol:The controversy continues about what type of recoil spring guide rod to use in your 1911 autopistol. there seems to be about an even split beteen those who prefer a short rod and those who prefer a full length recoil spring guide rod. People on each side of the issue insist their position is the 'right' position. Here is some information from Dave Lauck on the matter:
- The short spring guide rod and standard spring plug allows the pistol to be a little easier to disassemble. This system is used on D&L service model 1911s for those who may be a little less experienced with the 1911.
- A full length guide rod is used in the D&L Professional model because it does offer some benefits. (The FLGR setup is also simple to disassemble by those with a little more experience with the 1911.) The benefits of the FLGR system include smoother and more consistant tracking of the slide on the frame for each and every shot. More importantly the FLGR stops the live round in the chamber from being extracted from the chamber and ejected from the pistol if the front underside of the slide is slammed into a solid cover object during live fire when the thumb safety is off. Without the FLGR in place the slide will go back far enough to eject the live round from the chamber, but not nessessarily far enough to pick up the next round from the magazine. You can wind up with an empty chamber when you need it if this happens. A FLGR can prevent this occurance, which of course, could be a critical factor in a live situation. "

taken from http://www.dlsports.com/signature_firearms_1911.html
9/21/2010



That info comes from a guy who also builds compact 1911's. A lot of reputable 1911 smiths won't touch them for reasons DocGKR already stated.

[Metallicus]

That info comes from a guy who also builds compact 1911's. A lot of reputable 1911 smiths won't touch them for reasons DocGKR already stated.

I understand, just presenting both sides of the argument.

I honestly think its more of a personal choice though, a gun with either can run 100%, just takes time and energy from either you or a good gunsmith. This can be said about any 1911, its the Ferrari of Firearms.

[Gunut]

Just something else to break . I have seen more than one stop a shooter from finishing a course of fire .