View Full Version : ATF Selects GLOCK as Chosen Duty Weapon
Congrats Glock!
Smyrna, GA (Sept. 17, 2010) - The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) recently announced that it has awarded GLOCK, Inc. an unrestricted open market competitive firm-fixed-price Indefinite Delivery Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) multiple-award contract. After rigorous testing and evaluation including a 20,000 round endurance shoot and brutal environmental testing, the ATF not only awarded the contract to GLOCK, but also selected the GLOCK 22 Gen4 and 27 .40 caliber semi automatic pistols as their choice of duty weapon; demonstrating that GLOCK earned their trust and confidence.
The 10-year contract is valued at up to $40 million and the first ATF delivery orders have been placed. The terms provide additional Federal Agencies the opportunity to ride on the contract in accordance with the Federal Acquisition Regulations.
"GLOCK is very proud to have been competitively selected by the ATF for this contract over all our competition," said GLOCK Vice President Josh Dorsey. "GLOCK was chosen for a duty weapon over all others due to the new design features of the Gen4 pistol and GLOCK's Safe Action System as well as reliability and durability that have made GLOCK pistols famous. GLOCK's focus remains on providing safe, simple and fast pistols to those that go in harm's way to protect the freedom that we all currently enjoy. Our firearms are designed for these individuals to succeed and survive in any situation and we stand ready to not only meet U.S. Government requirements, but to exceed them."
GLOCK pistols are the first choice among consumers and law enforcement, with 65% of agencies nationwide choosing to carry GLOCK.
Anybody have any idea as to why the M&P wasn't chosen?
OhioFinance
09-22-10, 22:08
They were as well I believe. This is directly from the S&W press release.....
Smith & Wesson Awarded ATF Firearms Contract
Contract Award Allows For Multiple Agency Purchase
SPRINGFIELD, Mass., Sept 13, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (Nasdaq: SWHC), parent company of Smith & Wesson Corp., the legendary 158-year old company in the global business of safety, security, protection and sport, announced today that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) awarded the company an unrestricted open market competitive Firm-Fixed-Price Indefinite-Delivery/Indefinite -Quantity (ID/IQ) multiple-award contract for the Military & Police (M&P40) pistol.
The award marks the completion of a full and open competition among several firearm manufacturers to provide a commercial off-the-shelf pistol that met or surpassed the ATF technical requirements. Under this contract, the M&P40 pistol is not only qualified for purchase by the ATF but has also been made available to multiple U.S. Federal Agencies who may now use this contract vehicle for their purchases. The potential value of the contract award is $40 million over 10 years.
Michael F. Golden, President and CEO, said, "This award by the ATF marks a milestone for our company and for the Military & Police Pistol Series. Beyond the value of future orders we may receive under the contract, it is an important validation of our M&P products. During the ATF's stringent testing process, the M&P pistol performed exceptionally well, demonstrating excellence in the areas of reliability and performance, two key benefits that have made it a frequent choice by federal, state and local law enforcement professionals."
The ATF awarded the contract to Smith & Wesson after a rigorous, multi-step evaluation was conducted on the M&P40 full-size and compact pistols. The evaluation consisted of a multiple- agent, live-fire assessment of 5,000 rounds. Additionally, the pistols were fired 15,000 rounds during the endurance phase of the test, for a total of 20,000 rounds each. The pistols were further subjected to an environmental exposure test and a post-endurance evaluation.
Golden concluded, "The employees of Smith & Wesson are proud to support our nation's federal agents by supplying them with a top-grade, American made product that embodies our relentless focus on quality and performance, our innovative manufacturing techniques and the rich history of our company."
Yawn. :lazy2: I am sure it came down to lowest bid.
This will be interesting to see if any other federal agencies jump on the Glock or S&W as a duty weapon, if not already. My buddy still carrys a Sig 228 as a federal Agent.
This testing is NO low bid ballgame. Rigorous is an understatement.
Glock has been chosen as the ATF duty weapon. S&W "qualified for purchase" and other agencies may piggy back on this contract for purchases. DEA and FBI are issuing Glocks and have been for sometime.
Yawn. :lazy2: I am sure it came down to lowest bid.
I am dead sure. I would like to know if the P30, USP or even the FNX were in the mix and how the did. If there a website that shows the details and what was tested?
I wouldn't doubt that Glock is almost giving away those Gen 4s to attract the public.
Yeah...Glock is "almost giving away Gen4s". LOL. That's why they have been so successful as a company for 30 years...by "giving away" their product! Clue: they would not last very long if they chose to "give away" guns to every prestigious customer. I was involved in a new weapons selection program for a major metro PD 6years ago. Glock won the bid but was NOT the low bidder. Performance during 2 years of testing + overall support package + price (which included buy-back of existing weapons) were the factors considered. Glock won on overall points...was especially strong in it's test performance...but was not the low bid gun.
Moose-Knuckle
09-22-10, 23:42
I believe DHS and all that they are comprised of have Sig and H&K contracts.
So it appears that BATFE has GLOCK and S&W.
I'm familiar with testing procedures on these contracts. MANY firearms companies don't want to compete as they don't want to fail spec publicly.
Standard firearms procurement contract for fed LE agencies. We used to all rely on FBI contract piggy back, but now some agencies do their own. I'm not aware of any fed LE org issuing the M&P. Glock or Sig at this time.
And no, they're not give aways'. There's a BIG difference between agency contracted firearm and 'may purchase' language.
I bought my first Glock (19) in 1990. I have tried a few different handguns since and always come back to it.
IMO it is probably the best handgun for hard serious use, especially in shitty environments. The fact that the armorer course is 8 hours compared to days for other companies says alot as well. It is easy to work on and easy to train others on it.
Add the DEA to the list for the M&P.
variablebinary
09-23-10, 01:45
There was lots of talk of Glock's impending demise in the last couple of years as all the Glock-ish designs flooded the market.
But at the end of the day Glock does exactly what you need it to.
Yes, I drink the Kool-Aid, and it is damn good.
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-10, 03:44
Outside of the US it's a GLOCK and a 9mm world. Everyone else is still trying to play catch up.
Robb Jensen
09-23-10, 05:05
Some slides, some frames and some barrels are US made. Glock assembles 40-50K pistols in GA each month.
Being a cop, just having magazines that don't rust is a major selling point for me. In Florida where your sweat soaks into your nylon gear, unless you coat the inside of your magazine pouches with oil your magazines will start to rust. The only thing that rusts on Glocks down here are night sights from where arm sweat drips down into the holster.
Alas, I work for DOI and we will likely be using Sigs for some time to come.
Singlestack Wonder
09-23-10, 09:15
False! I was at the Glock dinner last year at the SHOT and we were told specifically that the rest of production was moved to the U.S.
I think I will take their word over yours.
I could careless, because I have no interest is switching to an M&P anytime soon.
At the last Armorer class I attened in February of this year it was also announced that Glock would be manufacturing the entire pistol here for U.S. sales. A pre-emptive strike in case our current politicians outlawed the import of foreign firearms.
At the last Armorer class I attened in February of this year it was also announced that Glock would be manufacturing the entire pistol here for U.S. sales. A pre-emptive strike in case our current politicians outlawed the import of foreign firearms.
I see this as good and bad. You will have Austria glocks and US glocks and people will be going gaga over Austria glocks....
GLOCK = PERFECTION!!!
"Get yourself a Glock and lose that Nickle Plated Sissy Pistol." Sam Gerard
Bulldog7972
09-23-10, 09:34
This will be interesting to see if any other federal agencies jump on the Glock or S&W as a duty weapon, if not already. My buddy still carrys a Sig 228 as a federal Agent.
Can you blame him? IMHO, the Sig 228 is an outstanding weapon. If I had a choice I too would chose a 228 over a Glock or M&P. Provided it's an older one of course.
Singlestack Wonder
09-23-10, 10:05
HK is a curious issue as they have never been able to excel in any of the action shooting sports (IDPA, IPSC, Steel Challenge) as well as having a low amount of law/mil users compared to other pistols. :confused:
John_Wayne777
09-23-10, 10:23
Anybody have any idea as to why the M&P wasn't chosen?
There are only a handful of them and to the best of my knowledge all of them have signed NDA's prohibiting them from talking about the exact reasons why one was purchased over another...so the usual warnings about grains (or buckets) of salt should be applied liberally.
FWIW, the amount of information seen in the GAO response to Sig's protests (apparently there were multiple) on this contract is exceptionally unusual, which is why that rebuttal landed like a bombshell. Ordinarily even the scant information published in that GAO report is the kind of thing federal contracting regulations doesn't allow the government or the contractors to talk about.
GAO got away with it because they are GAO...but if the ATF had published that kind of data it would have called the thunder down upon the heads of those who did it.
MarshallDodge
09-23-10, 17:26
Good for Glock and S&W.
Personally I cannot stand shooting 40 S&W in a Glock, especially a 27. Maybe they have improved with the release of the Gen4 but I already have my M&P40. I have had a couple issues with my M&P40 but it is one of the early ones and S&W took care of me.
I am with Grant on the M&P45 compacts, definitely a strong contender to replace my 4.25" 1911 as an EDC.
Good for Glock and S&W.
Personally I cannot stand shooting 40 S&W in a Glock, especially a 27. Maybe they have improved with the release of the Gen4 but I already have my M&P40.
Perhaps someone can clarify the difference. I haven't shot a 4th gen G22/G23. Does the new recoil spring help in recoil absorption?
I
HK is a curious issue as they have never been able to excel in any of the action shooting sports (IDPA, IPSC, Steel Challenge) as well as having a low amount of law/mil users compared to other pistols. :confused:
You won't find a stock, off-the-shelf pistol that is as reliable, as accurate, and as durable as an H&K. There are pistols that are just as reliable (arguably none more reliable, except theoretically perhaps a Glock, due to fewer internal parts and a simpler design), there are pistols that are more accurate (though very few), and there are pistols just as durable... but none can claim all three at the same time.
So to address your question, Grant answered it pretty well. The main reason is cost; why pay $900 for a pistol that rates 99% (H&K) when you can pay $600 for one that does 95% (Glock)? Those aren't literal figures, but you get the idea. Parts availability and the fact that, until recently with the HK45, their pistols were imported from Germany, they became sort of the "luxury" tactical weapon while pistols like Glock and S&W (to a lesser extent) became the staple brands.
You are mistaken about one thing, however. In stock-configuration competitions, many top competitors DO use H&K's. It's only when pistol customization comes into play do you see them much less frequently (again, due to parts availability and available mods). A lower-popularity weapon will have less support in aftermarket modifications than a widely-used weapon, regardless of which is objectively the better gun. This is one of the reasons you don't see many H&K's in custom/open-class competitions.
i wondered if s&w kicked back any commission with the contracts.
kidding.
geezerbutler
09-23-10, 23:03
They get to keep their S & W Airweights too.....Is that a WIN for S & W? :D
Nothing against any of the pistols, I used and carry all, Glock rocks and S&W hard to beat and yes I still carry my personally owned Sig P228, whatever stops the badguy:)
Singlestack Wonder
09-24-10, 10:49
My bad, I mis-read lights as sights. :rolleyes:
"Is it common? Don't think so, but is one of the reason why S&W went the more expensive route and used the metal guide rod."
Again, the Glock frame IS DESIGNED to flex with recoil thus the flexibe guide rod. The M&P frame is non-flexible and is a different design.
"When I ran a Glock, I used the ISMI steel guide rod. Never had a problem (gun ran like a top)." One of a few as many have had issues with non-glock guide rods. There is a thread here discussing Glock guide rods.
Regardless, while some PD's tend to change pistols often because of commercial hype, low price, or whatever, Glock still holds the majority of the world's pistol marketshare, period. S&W got off to a very rough start with all of the issues over the last few years very much like the Sigma fiasco. Again, we'll see in another 20 years or so if the M&P was a success or just another S&W fumble.
Singlestack Wonder
09-24-10, 10:52
You won't find a stock, off-the-shelf pistol that is as reliable, as accurate, and as durable as an H&K. There are pistols that are just as reliable (arguably none more reliable, except theoretically perhaps a Glock, due to fewer internal parts and a simpler design), there are pistols that are more accurate (though very few), and there are pistols just as durable... but none can claim all three at the same time.
So to address your question, Grant answered it pretty well. The main reason is cost; why pay $900 for a pistol that rates 99% (H&K) when you can pay $600 for one that does 95% (Glock)? Those aren't literal figures, but you get the idea. Parts availability and the fact that, until recently with the HK45, their pistols were imported from Germany, they became sort of the "luxury" tactical weapon while pistols like Glock and S&W (to a lesser extent) became the staple brands.
You are mistaken about one thing, however. In stock-configuration competitions, many top competitors DO use H&K's. It's only when pistol customization comes into play do you see them much less frequently (again, due to parts availability and available mods). A lower-popularity weapon will have less support in aftermarket modifications than a widely-used weapon, regardless of which is objectively the better gun. This is one of the reasons you don't see many H&K's in custom/open-class competitions.
Just curious...Who are those top competitors and where did they finish in last year's IDPA or USPSA Nationals?
When you see the passion on both sides of the argument, its clear both Glock and S&W have great pistols. What a sweet spot to be in, your choice of choice weapons. Is this a great country or what?
Disclaimer: I have a M&P9fs and love it...
The_War_Wagon
09-24-10, 12:18
Best POSSIBLE weapon they could have chosen for the BATmen.
Now - tell every agent you see, to make SURE their safety is "on," and VOILA! They'll be working on THAT one the rest of their career! :lol::lol::lol:
Singlestack Wonder
09-24-10, 12:18
IMO, the 4th Gen. Glock is one of the biggest "fumbles" I've seen recently. Glock had a real opportunity to impress, but squandered it on half-assery, at the worst possible time - a time wherein S&W is getting their shit together, and gaining some momentum.
Whatever was the ATF thinking when they chose Glock?
Its hard to say how much or if Glock is "losing" in certain markets to the M&P (internationally as well as domestic) when they could be gaining market share in others.
Sales for the first quarter of 2010 for Glock supposedly spiked 71%. So though they may be losing in some places to the M&P they may be gaining and more than making it up in other areas.
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/07/06/daily93.html
Note: Glock, Inc fiscal year 2010 began April 1, 2009 and runs until the end of March 2010
So what is the skinny on the "shooter induced stoppages" in the Phase 2 testing? I mean how types many can there be? Premature slide lock or failure to lock back the slide are two pretty straight forward ones. If you count failure to lock a slide back as a stoppage when the guns not shooting anymore anyway. ;)
Maybe dropping a loaded mag out during a string of fire? That would stop it.
How many other ways are there for a shooter to induce a stoppage? I've never thought to tally them up. :confused:
HK is a curious issue as they have never been able to excel in any of the action shooting sports (IDPA, IPSC, Steel Challenge) as well as having a low amount of law/mil users compared to other pistols. :confused:
A GM USPSA shooter who at least when I knew him was shooting with the top dozen or so shooters in the country. Apparently he now runs an HK and is scary good at the national level according to another top GM I took a class from. I wish I knew which HK he's running. I'll try to find out.
BTW love my Glocks. I've carried and shot them for years. 3 G17's 3 G19's and a G26. But everyone keeps trying to get me to jump ship to the "improved Glock" M&P. I ain't fixing what is not broken.
Since this post was deleted, I will repost it as it has valuable and interesting info in it.
C4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here some other truths:
1. NO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE OUT THE FIRE CONTROL PARTS IN YOUR M&P.
2. NO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHANGE OUT YOUR STRIKER.
3. NO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STIPPLE YOUR BACKSTRAP ANY MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO STIPPLE A GLOCK FRAME.
I have no problem that you do not like the M&P over the Glock. To each their own. Just don't try and convince folks that personal preferences (like changing our trigger components, stippling, etc) is anything more than a "nice to have" option.
C4
---End Quote---
You took the words right out of my mouth!
I don't claim to be an "expert". I do work for an agency in SW Ohio that has had over 1,100 9mm M&P's in the filed. We are starting our 5th year with these guns. The 3 T&E guns we initially received were the first 9mm M&P's to ever leave the factory.
All our guns are stock. All our strikers are what are now considered "1st generation". Our guns came to us as they were produced, to keep up with the number of students attending the 2 day transition classes. The CS from S&W is just short of amazing.
We burn through a shitload of Winchester 147 gr TMJ training ammunition per year through these guns. No extraction issue. I find it difficult to think Winchester would use a different case for the 115 gr loading. Doesn't seem cost effective. But what do I know.
The extractors in the M&P is built like a tank compared to the 5946's we dumped. We are not seeing an extractor issue. We did on the 5906's and then on the 5946's.
As of last week when I met with the head armor for our agency, we have yet to see a trend developing as to parts breaking. I ask every time I read in the internet that I should be seeing issues with my gun.
He does work on Glocks for a smaller agency without an armor (about 50 guns). Yes, even the Glock can break a striker every now and then. He had three G17's awaiting new strikers when I talked to him. Don't know the history of the guns, so can't comment further.
The M&P is a good gun. The 3rd gen Glock 9mm is a good gun. I have a 3rd gen Glock 19 that is not going anywhere.
What bothers me the most is that I have a huge issue with what I am hearing from reliable sources, as to what the Glock reps are doing on the west coast.
If what I was told is correct, it will come back to bite Glock in the end.
Beat Trash
Beat Trash
09-25-10, 12:41
Thanks Grant for re-posting my reply. Not sure how it got deleted.
RAM Engineer
09-25-10, 13:45
FWIW, the amount of information seen in the GAO response to Sig's protests (apparently there were multiple) on this contract is exceptionally unusual, which is why that rebuttal landed like a bombshell. Ordinarily even the scant information published in that GAO report is the kind of thing federal contracting regulations doesn't allow the government or the contractors to talk about.
GAO got away with it because they are GAO...but if the ATF had published that kind of data it would have called the thunder down upon the heads of those who did it.
This was not a "exceptionally unusual" amount of data published in a GAO protest decision document. Every one that I have seen or been involved with had just as much info in regards to the basis of protest. Once a company decides to protest a decision, they lose a lot of confidentiality protection with respect to their proposal evaluation. Company proprietary information will still usually be protected, but any test data obtained by the .gov during evaluations is .gov property and will probably become public as the GAO either protects or reprimands the contracting agency's decision.
IMHO: glock = overrated
My first issed G22 was the least reliable gun I've ever shot. They finally replaced it with one that works most of the time. Personally I anxiously await the day I can carry an HK, M&P, 1911, XDM, or Sig on duty. Even if I have to buy it myself. So many options with the proper grip angle are out there but the stuffy shirt HQ types are still under the delusion that one gun fits everyone.
I don't begrudge anyone who wants to carry a glock but the nonsense about them being perfect is sad at best.
I'm not surprised the ATF chose the glock. The ATF knows good ordnance when they see it.
After all, they are the Bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and EXPLOSIVES. :haha:
So the superior ergo's gun had more than twice as many shooter induced stoppages in Phase 2 testing. What's up with that? Somebody must have the dish?
There's so much bullshit going thrown around in this thread I won't waste my time cleaning it up. If you have an NDA or know something but can't say then keep your mouth shut and don't say anything.
There are two types of people when it comes to this stuff; those that know and don't say anything and those that don't but run their mouths like they do.
This forum is for facts and first hand experience. If you have both then please PM me and I'll unlock the thread. If you know something but can't say, like to pretend that you know but really don't, or heard it from your brother's-cousins-step-father then don't bother.
This crap is turning out worse than the Spikes threads.
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