View Full Version : Knife vs. Gun shot lethality
Not sure where the proper section for this question is, but:
Some time ago I was reading an article in some LE publication where the author focused on knife attacks on LEOs. One statement he made that stuck in my mind was that although gun shots were more common, knife attacks were more likely to be fatal.
He didn't offer a source for the statement however, so I never knew if it was a legit stat.
Anyone know where that comes from and or if it's a legit statement?
BTW, the reason I was reminded of the stat was I got roped into one of those discussions on Tueller Drills and "21' rule" and such, with the usual ninjas saying things like "21ft? I'd have 2rnd into his chest and one into his left eye before he got within 5ft of me" and the like... :rolleyes:
Other usual classics were comments like "what's the big deal if someone gets a few shallow slices on me before I drop him with my amazing handgun skills"
OK, I'm paraphrasing on that one, but you know how those go, and I thought of that stat again and decided to see if I could track it down, etc.
It might have more to do with the attacking range. With a knife you can more easily pick and choose what parts of the anatomy to attack.....and very few people are trained to defend against a knife attack. Thrusts to the torso, slashes to the neck, slashes to the inner thigh, and slashes to the under side of the wrist will bleed you out pretty quickly. A razor sharp blade will cut through large sections of tissue with little effort. Also, most people raise their hands, palms up to defend against an attack leaving the arteries in their wrists exposed.
In ancient European knife/sword fighting you train to protect these areas by limiting exposure or wearing protection on those locations. They also had better fighting blade designs back then. Most modern designs lack retention and balance features such as a proper hilt/guard and pommel......not to mention good spear points for maximized tissue damage in a thrust. When it comes to combat, ancient designs are almost always better.
It might have more to do with the attacking range. With a knife you can more easily pick and choose what parts of the anatomy to attack.....and very few people are trained to defend against a knife attack. Thrusts to the torso, slashes to the neck, slashes to the inner thigh, and slashes to the under side of the wrist will bleed you out pretty quickly. A razor sharp blade will cut through large sections of tissue with little effort. Also, most people raise their hands, palms up to defend against an attack leaving the arteries in their wrists exposed.
In ancient European knife/sword fighting you train to protect these areas by limiting exposure or wearing protection on those locations. They also had better fighting blade designs back then. Most modern designs lack retention and balance features such as a proper hilt/guard and pommel......not to mention good spear points for maximized tissue damage in a thrust. When it comes to combat, ancient designs are almost always better.
No doubt that's all true, as many have learned the hard way with knives, but I was wondering if it's actually true regarding the stat that knife wounds were less common, but more likely to be lethal, and if such an actual stat exists per statements made by this author.
Blood vessels that are torn apart by a dull knife tend to shrink, limiting the bleeding somewhat. Blood vessels cut by a sharp knife remain at their full diameter and bleed a lot more.
Now maybe, blood vessels that get ripped apart by a gunshot wound also shrink up a bit. The difference of course is the permanent cavity from a gunshot tends to have way more surface area than the wound track of a knife.
I mean, you can double-lung a deer with a broadhead arrow and will run off, lay down, cough up a bunch of pink foam and die. Whereas a deer shot the exact same way with an FMJ bullet and it might survive the wound. Deer are tough critters, though.
The statistic I've heard is that in the US 85% of people shot with a handgun survive, but only 66% of people who are stabbed survive.
The statistic I've heard is that in the US 85% of people shot with a handgun survive, but only 66% of people who are stabbed survive.
are we talking malicious stabbings and malicious handgun woundings? If it includes guys shooting themself in the leg reholstering or blowing a finger off drawing, then we're going to have to include accidental knife woundings as well.
I dunno about you guys but i've definitely cut myself by accident more than once. Haven't shot myself though....
just a point maybe worth bringing up. most gunshot wound statistics i've seen like to lump it all into the "gun crime" category or whatever fits their particular agenda.
I've cut myself accidentally plenty of times. Hasn't killed me yet. Got a numb patch on the side of my left index finger thanks to one particularly deep slash but even that hasn't been a problem.
I've been on a metric ton of shootings and stabbings. In my experience, people who are stabbed are a bloody mess. They look horrific, like walking dead. That said, I've seen very, very few people die from their stab wounds. Many are messed up for life, both physically and mentally, but contrary to popular belief, it is not a easy thing to kill another human with a knife. One of the only deaths I can remember from a stabbing was a 14 yom who got in a fight and got stabbed just once, but it severed the femoral artery. It was simply AMAZING how much blood he lost and how fast, and there was not a damn thing we could do to stop it.
Shooting someone in the chest if far easier. Lately, it seems like every gunshot I go on dies. Very few die right away, but they do die 5 to 10 minutes later. Those shot anywhere in the chest or pelvis with a rifle are in big trouble, but we all know that.
I'm basing my response as a firefighter/SWAT medic who works in the hood and is usually first on scene with his crew to shootings and stabbings. Being the guy trying to plug the hole gives one a unique perspective. I'll take a stabbing any day over a gunshot. I'm also assuming a torso or pelvic shot/stab with malicious intent.
30 years as a surgeon definitively caring for a wide, wide variety of trauma victims including shootings and stabbings, I can't begin to imagine that knives are more lethal than firearms, at least not in typical midwestern venues, Chicago excluded.
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-10, 19:30
This also due in part to the fact that most officers shot on duty are wearing body armor. Some but the vast majority of vest do not defend against lethal cutting instruments.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that a knife will penetrate most soft armor.
Blood vessels that are torn apart by a dull knife tend to shrink, limiting the bleeding somewhat. Blood vessels cut by a sharp knife remain at their full diameter and bleed a lot more.
As an overly simplistic generalization, arteries that are partially severed by a knife or bullet don't get the opportunity to contract to stop the bleeding. If completely transected, they'll usually stop.
streaker69
09-23-10, 19:38
This also due in part to the fact that most officers shot on duty are wearing body armor. Some but the vast majority of vest do not defend against lethal cutting instruments.
This is the reason I always heard why cops don't like knives, because they'll cut right through the vest. Same as broadtip arrows and such.
Interesting story along those lines. About 2 months ago, the wife and I went into to renew our CCW's at the local court house. I wasn't carrying my firearm at the time, but I always have my pocket knife on me. I emptied my pockets in the bin and went through the metal detector. I picked up my things and my claim check for my knife on the other side and then stopped to ask the officer there if I were carrying my firearm could I check it without any issues. He kindly said "Sure, as long as you have your CCW". I thanked him and proceeded to the Sheriff's office.
About 45 minutes later, we had our new cards and I approached the closest officer, but not the same one as before to give him my check and get my knife back. He went and retrieved my knife and then came over to me and was rather gruff and said "I'm gonna walk you over to the door and then give this to you." So about 15 feet later, he gives me the knife and says "Next time, leave the knife in the car." Had me wondering, was it because it was a knife or would he have been just as nasty if I had my firearm or not. Or maybe he was just having a bad day.
As an overly simplistic generalization, arteries that are partially severed by a knife or bullet don't get the opportunity to contract to stop the bleeding. If completely transected, they'll usually stop.
Thanks for explaining that :) I was basically paraphrasing Fairbairn's book "Get Tough" (circa 1942) with my own limited experience with human and animal trauma.
Makes sense, though. If you just nick an artery, or tear it open on one side, it'll still bleed a bunch.
The statistic I've heard is that in the US 85% of people shot with a handgun survive, but only 66% of people who are stabbed survive.
This is deceptive. Knife attacks typically happen at contact distance with the victim being stabbed repeatedly as they are often struggling to get away. They are often stabbed many more times than a shooting victim is shot and may wind up bleeding.
With firearms, if you are talking about non-objective driven people who are shot, they may drop as a psycological reaction and the shooter may then stop, whereas knife attacks tend to be frenzied with the victim trying to pull away, fight, resist, in response to which the attacker keeps attacking.
As an EMT in southern california for two years I saw multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and stabbings to the chest die. I also had one kid lying on his front lawn with a nice neat hole in his abdomen the size of a .40-.45 without exit wound, and he was talking to me like nothing happened. We flew him out to a trauma center and he was fine. Another kid tried to commit suicide with a shotgun to the face and had the unfortunate experience of surviving. His face was split in half up to his eyes with both sides hanging down like predator, and he survived.
It is entirely dependent on the situation, what major organs are involved, how they are involved, how soon before care arrives, what care is available, etc. etc. Knife wound vs. GSW is merely too simplistic.
I don't know where, but I've got some stats somewhere on knife wounds versus wounds cause by firearm projectiles and the bottom line was you are much more likely to die from the knife wound.
BUT, to keep it apples vs apples, you also have to account for the type of knife or firearm projectile (such as a rifle bullet vs handgun).
The statistic I've heard is that in the US 85% of people shot with a handgun survive, but only 66% of people who are stabbed survive.
Here in Memphis we have The Med. The Army sends folks through rotations there as we have so many gunshot wounds in this lovely city. I have heard roughly the same stats above from a trauma surgeon I know. In the right range (matter of a few yards) a person that really knows how to use a knife (ie trained) has somewhat of an advantage over the individual armed with a handgun. Or that is what I have heard at inservice and from some trainers.
Here in Memphis we have The Med. The Army sends folks through rotations there as we have so many gunshot wounds in this lovely city. I have heard roughly the same stats above from a trauma surgeon I know. In the right range (matter of a few yards) a person that really knows how to use a knife (ie trained) has somewhat of an advantage over the individual armed with a handgun. Or that is what I have heard at inservice and from some trainers.
Don't forget, the bad Guy doesn't have to be really trained. The most common type assault is the "Singer Sewing Machine"; grab with one hand, stab with other hand over and over and over. This is the also known as the Prison Assault Style.
Hey, grab their face and stab until they go limp, that's how I would use a knife if it came to that.
thebriarman
09-23-10, 23:33
Either way, this thread has sure caused me to think about getting some better training and to be more focused when I'm out and about.
Don Robison
09-23-10, 23:45
I believe the data you're referring to is pulled from the FBI uniform crime report by comparing the assault data by weapon percentages with the murder data by weapon percentages. I haven't looked at the 2009 report or compared them so I couldn't/wouldn't say for sure what it suggests.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm
That's why we are trained to either never get that close, or if something unavoidable happens you get in close and control the knife's delivery system (the person's arm).
Either way, this thread has sure caused me to think about getting some better training and to be more focused when I'm out and about.
For me, knife defense was the hardest skill in DT training. for whatever reason I had a lot of difficulty getting even the gross motor skills working properly and that's piss poor pathetic in my opinion. I don't know why, but it just kicked my ass.
Spend alot of time training with knives at the JKD academy that I attend, I have also heard that more deaths are caused by knives than guns. Knives dont come out the way they go in. As long as that knife is in you it is twisting and turning causing even more damage. Bullet is straight in and out (for the most part). Knives tear and rip. Not a pretty image to get in your head. A little training goes along way. You never know these days.
jesus i dont' know how you EMT guys do it. i'm glad you do, but man :eek:
has anyone mentioned the fact that DOAs don't go to the ER? i'm sure that most gunshot victims that make it to the ER will survive.. but knife wounds are usually bleedouts only- no CNS damage nor the complete obliteration of major organs, just a shitoload of bleeding. they may live longer, and die at the hospital. where stats are collected.
i'm pretty sure that's how those stats came out.. in fact, i'm pretty sure i've read that.
Fried Chicken Blowout
09-25-10, 06:49
I've got 15+ years experience, first as a paramedic in busy metro areas of Southern California and now as an Emergency Nurse at a Trauma Center in Colorado and I can tell you that I've seen WAY more people killed and critically injured by knife attacks then I've ever seen by GSW. It's very area dependent... In California the ratio was something like 1 GSW for every 2 Stabbings. In Colorado it's like 1 GSW for every 10 Stabbings. Guns are rarely used in Colorado.
Anywhere where you have a large number hispanics, you will have knives as the weapon on choice, at least that's what I've noticed.
Also on another note, I've never seen a GSW from a long gun that wasn't hunting related. We just don't get those terrific wounds that you will get in the military. Most of our GSW's are fired by a Law Enforcement Officer and the wounds are not very impressive. Anyone that thinks the .40 S&W is a death ray better rethink it. I've talked to at least a dozen different people on their arrival to the ED or in the field that have been shoot by an officers pistol. They normally have a surgical injury, but are very stable and will be taking a mile a min.
Most of them just gave up upon being shot. But clearly they could have continued the fight if they wanted to.
But back to the stabbings... They very few of them were able to do anything but attempt to die from the time I saw them. Large amounts of blood loss compared to a pistol wound. These patients are screwed and it takes a lot to keep them going. We had four of them arrive within 5 mins one night in the ED. Two were critical that had to be flow out to a Level 1 Trauma Center and two we kept. All of them had stays in the WEEKS before they could be discharged, two has large amounts of bowel that where eviscerated from large slash wounds and the other two had serious singe stab wounds to the chest and abd. One one of these was walking and talking upon his arrive, the others were doing their best to die.
The moral of the story is.... Respect the blade and drop him at 21 feet.
What he said! Although sometimes you will feel it before you see it!
The moral of the story is.... Respect the blade and drop him at 21 feet.
Here is an interesting dashcam video that illustrates why that's such an important statement. Note where knife-boy was dropped.
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20100903/WRT0101/100903058/-1/archive
And who could forget this video on the 21' rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaZfF0ssdPE
Here is an interesting dashcam video that illustrates why that's such an important statement. Note where knife-boy was dropped.
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20100903/WRT0101/100903058/-1/archive
Good video
jklaughrey
09-25-10, 09:36
Having grown up in the city of Angels, I have been a victim of a GSW and multiple stabbings. 2 GSW's and 5 knife wounds. Being that the GSW's were from sub caliber weapons .32 and a .25 from your local friendly hood thug I don't really consider them being that all traumatic. The shot placement was poor, upper/outer thigh and upper arm. However the stabbings were with a box cutter, a phillips screwdriver, 1 homemade shiv/spike, a homemade blade from sheet metal and 1 actual real knife. I know what was used since I was the one who walked away versus being carried or escorted in cuffs. Most wounds were lessened by the fact I knew how to defend. Dad taught us children well, we trained with the old style hard plastic/rubber barber combs or wooden knives. Out of all the only real damage was done by the screwdriver into my upper back, punctures don't heal well. If I had my choice I would take a GSW from your local tweaker/thug versus someone with a knife, simply the skills to defend a knife attack aren't always there. You are going to get cut/stabbed even if you can defend, or at least the chance is still there. You are at best mitigating the potential damage and disarming and countering the attacker. Like all things practice and training.
I agree also that culture, demographic, and location influence the weaponry you have a higher percentage of encountering. SoCal where I grew up was largely Hispanic and they by far are more of a blade society versus your typical SoCal white boy.
I've got 15+ years experience, first as a paramedic in busy metro areas of Southern California and now as an Emergency Nurse at a Trauma Center in Colorado and I can tell you that I've seen WAY more people killed and critically injured by knife attacks then I've ever seen by GSW. It's very area dependent... In California the ratio was something like 1 GSW for every 2 Stabbings. In Colorado it's like 1 GSW for every 10 Stabbings. Guns are rarely used in Colorado.
Anywhere where you have a large number hispanics, you will have knives as the weapon on choice, at least that's what I've noticed.
Also on another note, I've never seen a GSW from a long gun that wasn't hunting related. We just don't get those terrific wounds that you will get in the military. Most of our GSW's are fired by a Law Enforcement Officer and the wounds are not very impressive. Anyone that thinks the .40 S&W is a death ray better rethink it. I've talked to at least a dozen different people on their arrival to the ED or in the field that have been shoot by an officers pistol. They normally have a surgical injury, but are very stable and will be taking a mile a min.
Most of them just gave up upon being shot. But clearly they could have continued the fight if they wanted to.
But back to the stabbings... They very few of them were able to do anything but attempt to die from the time I saw them. Large amounts of blood loss compared to a pistol wound. These patients are screwed and it takes a lot to keep them going. We had four of them arrive within 5 mins one night in the ED. Two were critical that had to be flow out to a Level 1 Trauma Center and two we kept. All of them had stays in the WEEKS before they could be discharged, two has large amounts of bowel that where eviscerated from large slash wounds and the other two had serious singe stab wounds to the chest and abd. One one of these was walking and talking upon his arrive, the others were doing their best to die.
The moral of the story is.... Respect the blade and drop him at 21 feet.
Wow. My experiences are exactly different. I work in a predominately Hispanic area - ok lets get real, its the damn barrio. Knives are most surely not the weapon of choice here. When it is, it is usually more of a slashing than stabbing. Think about it. You have to hit some very particular spots with a knife to kill quickly, or to even cause the massive amount of blood loss needed. Most people are not trained with a knife. We never perk up when we get a stabbing call. Gunshots are another story.
A quick shot to the chest can cause a lot of damage. Long rifles here are the weapon of choice - shotguns, sks's, AK's. Big holes, massive trauma, broken bones, bone loss, etc give us lots of trouble. We have a level 1 trauma center here and we ride in on every call.
Anyways, at least around here, stabbing never seem to kill, gunshots seem to knock them dead all over. Maybe they just shoot straighter out here?
I'm sure there's likely a lot of regional and demographic variability. My experience has always been in the ER and operating room. I dread taking GSW to the OR. Especially shotgun. Knife wounds tend to be a lot less messy, and once I get them there, more survivable.
Having grown up in the city of Angels, I have been a victim of a GSW and multiple stabbings. 2 GSW's and 5 knife wounds. Being that the GSW's were from sub caliber weapons .32 and a .25 from your local friendly hood thug I don't really consider them being that all traumatic. The shot placement was poor, upper/outer thigh and upper arm. However the stabbings were with a box cutter, a phillips screwdriver, 1 homemade shiv/spike, a homemade blade from sheet metal and 1 actual real knife. I know what was used since I was the one who walked away versus being carried or escorted in cuffs. Most wounds were lessened by the fact I knew how to defend. Dad taught us children well, we trained with the old style hard plastic/rubber barber combs or wooden knives. Out of all the only real damage was done by the screwdriver into my upper back, punctures don't heal well. If I had my choice I would take a GSW from your local tweaker/thug versus someone with a knife, simply the skills to defend a knife attack aren't always there. You are going to get cut/stabbed even if you can defend, or at least the chance is still there. You are at best mitigating the potential damage and disarming and countering the attacker. Like all things practice and training.
I agree also that culture, demographic, and location influence the weaponry you have a higher percentage of encountering. SoCal where I grew up was largely Hispanic and they by far are more of a blade society versus your typical SoCal white boy.
considering you can buy a set of steak knives at the 99 cent store, Im just going to assume that you got stabbed with the shank and sheetmetal knife in prison....
because i can find no legitimate reason for someone to make a shiv outside of jail.
jklaughrey
09-25-10, 12:46
They don't let criminals become LEO's or join the service...usually. I never asked why the person decided to make a homemade shiv, but alas he did. My guess in metal shop, since that one and the sharpened sheet metal both happened on campus in H.S. But I have worked in a prison for short time while finishing college.
Most stabbings I have seen in the chest have been fatal, whether I have seen them in the ED or in the street. Most slashings have been non-fatal. I have seen far more fatal stabbings to the torso than fatal GSWs to the torso.
I'd love to see "more better" data on this.
And who could forget this video on the 21' rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaZfF0ssdPE
If you're going to post that one, the alternate ending video is mandatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7sUyoG1iY
If you're going to post that one, the alternate ending video is mandatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR7sUyoG1iY
Then there's the 121' rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_6bmrqIsP8&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Then there's the 121' rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_6bmrqIsP8&NR=1&feature=fvwp
"Hey I'm just hanging out!" haha
The issue with knife lethality is still subject to the same parameters as with guns: Placement, penetration, wound volume.
I would think that defensive wounds, slashing wounds against non vital areas, and stab wounds in non vital areas or that underpenetrate, all should contribute to higher survivability to a knife attack. Most violent knife attacks from a crime of passion seem to involve an ungodly amount of stab wounds, probably because the poor victim takes a long time to expire as they are flailing to protect themselves, and the killer keeps going eventually getting past all of the sub lethal wounds as described above, and killing the poor victim.
However, and at the risk of sounding like a keyboard commando here, it seems to me, based on my own martial arts training, that if one knows the anatomic targets to go for, with a proper knife and technique, you can quickly deliver lethal wounds with a frightening speed and accuracy.
Putting a stabbing attack aside, a good knife and a good stroke will deliver a very deep slashing wound that will easily reach the femoral artery, not to mention the carotid artery which is perhaps no more than 4 cm deep. Those types of wounds are easily produced with even a folding EDC type of blade, and in a close in, body to body contact situation, it may be arguably much easier to apply such wounds with a knife, and more quickly, than it would be to get good quickly incapacitating hits with a gun, all the meanwhile controlling the opponent's gun so that his would be quickly incapacitating hits are foiled. Controlling a blade in such close quarters is much harder, than controlling a pistol obviously.
Not to mention that it is relatively easy to have the knife in hand, but masked (all you see is the opponent's dorsal hand/fist) and ready to use, whereas the pistol operator may still have his weapon holstered/IWB, especially if he's a civilian.
Against a really good knife attacker who's bad breath and sweat is already upon you, even if your gun has cleared your holster, you may already be royally screwed and already subject to a catastrophic wound (or with a wound rendering your ability to grasp your gun gone) and in that situation, it may be a better idea to not even try to draw right away, but to try to control the knife hand/his body with both your hands, keeping him from getting good hits on you (getting plenty cut in the process probably but hopefully not in vital areas), and then getting the opportunity to create enough distance to allow you a clean draw and good hits. In such a situation going for your gun right away may not be the best decision.
Anyway, that's more getting into tactics, but my point is that a trained and deliberately applied knife wound will be just as deadly as a gun shot wound (i.e., it will produce rapid and catastrophic injury to a vascular structure that will result in incapacitation as quickly as its gun shot counterpart). And, at body contact range such a knife wound is, arguably, easier to produce.
But I think the point is that a knife wound constitutes LETHAL FORCE, period, and trying to scrutinize which is more lethal is irrelevant, and furthermore, there are scenarios when a knife can produce its potentially lethal wounds more efficiently than a gun.
But I think the point is that a knife wound constitutes LETHAL FORCE, period, and trying to scrutinize which is more lethal is irrelevant,
Agreed. You will note I was actually trying to track down a specific (supposedly published and public) stat thrown out by an author, vs an actual scrutiny of knife vs gun lethality, if you catch the gist of the difference.
That lead to a thread on general comments on knife vs GSW lethality, which - including your above comments - still made for some interesting reading.
I agree, knife, gun, what ever, it's lethal intent and all bad to be on the receiving end of. It's mental masturbation beyond that, but I like to know where stats come from at least. :D
Agreed. You will note I was actually trying to track down a specific (supposedly published and public) stat thrown out by an author, vs an actual scrutiny of knife vs gun lethality, if you catch the gist of the difference.
That lead to a thread on general comments on knife vs GSW lethality, which - including your above comments - still made for some interesting reading.
I agree, knife, gun, what ever, it's lethal intent and all bad to be on the receiving end of. It's mental masturbation beyond that, but I like to know where stats come from at least. :D
I got it, yeah it would be interesting indeed to see if such statistics were truly available. Maybe you can find a resident going through his Trauma rotation to do a study :D
47% of all statistics are made up.
I was thinking, that when I went to work today I would pull up our police report system, and compare firearm to knife homicides and aggravated assaults offenses for 2010. Homicides were clear cut 90 firearm and 13 with a knife.
Aggravated assaults were all over the map. People getting threatened with a gun or knife. Lots of people with relatively minor injuries. All sorts of gunshot and knife wounds to extremities. One guy who was stabbed over 100 times in the chest and abdomen. Another guy who got shot in his head and is a vegetable. I'm not going to put the effort into reading and classifying over 2000 aggravated assault reports.
I could work the numbers either way. Personally I haven't kept count, but I would give guns a wide margin in the lethality department.
Sorry to resurrect an older thread but I thought this video (and group of videos linked to it) was relevant to this topic.
Be aware of your surroundings and who is walking up on you!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f3b_1286227189
Sorry to resurrect an older thread but I thought this video (and group of videos linked to it) was relevant to this topic.
Be aware of your surroundings and who is walking up on you!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f3b_1286227189
you a pacific northwesterner?
you a pacific northwesterner?
Nope, live in Missouri, "The Show Me State".:D
Missouri, "The Show Me State".:D
http://goodmusicncoolstuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/man-boobs.jpg
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i saw that video on another local board this morning. one point it illustrates is difference in immediate incapacitation... he stabs/slices two individuals- both of which might actually have lethal wounds- yet one of the two is still fully capable of shutting him down with one shot from a pistol, after being wounded multiple times.
http://goodmusicncoolstuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/man-boobs.jpg
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i saw that video on another local board this morning. one point it illustrates is difference in immediate incapacitation... he stabs/slices two individuals- both of which might actually have lethal wounds- yet one of the two is still fully capable of shutting him down with one shot from a pistol, after being wounded multiple times.
It validates another point: teamwork is essential, it gives the bad guy someone else to kill. I don't know how it would have turned out for the balding clerk if it had just been him and the bad guy. Bad guy looks like h cut three guys; neck slice on guy standing at counter, a couple cuts and stabs on balding counter guy, and maybe a couple stabs on guy who fell down by soda display.
And who could forget this video on the 21' rule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaZfF0ssdPE
This dude lives near me :confused::mad::rolleyes:
Most stabbings I have seen in the chest have been fatal, whether I have seen them in the ED or in the street. Most slashings have been non-fatal. I have seen far more fatal stabbings to the torso than fatal GSWs to the torso.
I am a retired Critical Care RN among other units worked to include Trauma ICU, and ER in several Inner City ER's, around the country.
The GSW to the Chest rarely get to the hospital, they go to the morgue. That's why you see more Chest stabbings.
Same with rifle wounds, a lot less than handguns, because most folks hit by rifles don't go to the ER either. They go to the Morgue. Most folks survive being shot by handguns, not by rifles. And most folks stabbed/slashed survive too.
Go figure.
Fred
Moose-Knuckle
10-07-10, 13:39
I am a retired Critical Care RN among other units worked to include Trauma ICU, and ER in several Inner City ER's, around the country.
The GSW to the Chest rarely get to the hospital, they go to the morgue. That's why you see more Chest stabbings.
Same with rifle wounds, a lot less than handguns, because most folks hit by rifles don't go to the ER either. They go to the Morgue. Most folks survive being shot by handguns, not by rifles. And most folks stabbed/slashed survive too.
Go figure.
Fred
Now that is some perseptive on the matter. :cool:
http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/edgedweapons.html
Here is a link on some knife/gun data, I have read articles on this subject over the years in magazines tactical knives comes to mind, also seem to remember Mossad Ayoob writing on some of this, as well as Michael Janich.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWmRWjDhYw
Metallicus
10-08-10, 15:12
If a third degree black belt in Silat (Philippine Knife fighting art) pulls out a Barong (Philippine fighting machete) Then you better be sure you're Flash Gordon and Wyatt Earp all rolled into one.
And Visa Versa If Flash Earp pulls on you and you have even the biggest baddest knife I hope you're a Jedi.
I would say the only reason the question of which is more lethal comes into play is because at distances a knife is a viable weapon both parties martial skills come into effect.
Pulling a pistol and taking a shot at even 5 yards is a very different skill then doing so at same distance with someone closing in on you and a blade in the mix.
Another reason why statistics might be misleading is because a knife is more often then not an offensive weapon, weapon of passion, malicious intent ext. The blade is becoming less and less a defensive tool. This doesn't mean they are obsolete as the saying goes "Anything is better then your fingernails"
but how many people are there with that level of skill with a knife? or even a gun, for that matter. furthermore, how many people are there with the skill, and would ever use their skill/weapon in an offensive capacity?
when we argue things like "gun vs knife lethality," we pretty much need to do it within the context of street fights- and probably 99% of street fights do not involve anyone with any degree of "proficiency," in the way we'd mean it here.
Metallicus
10-08-10, 16:39
but how many people are there with that level of skill with a knife? or even a gun, for that matter. furthermore, how many people are there with the skill, and would ever use their skill/weapon in an offensive capacity?
when we argue things like "gun vs knife lethality," we pretty much need to do it within the context of street fights- and probably 99% of street fights do not involve anyone with any degree of "proficiency," in the way we'd mean it here.
I would agree. People with extreme skill are few and far between. Enough so that the average Joe will not have to defend himself from a Jedi, but I like to train for the worst case scenario.
When it comes to a Knife v Gun. I would say that one is not inherently more dangerous then the other,the man yielding it is.
Just as a Truck is not inherently more dangerous then a SUV. Depends on the driver.
Metallicus
10-08-10, 16:41
I agree, knife, gun, what ever, it's lethal intent and all bad to be on the receiving end of. It's mental masturbation beyond that, but I like to know where stats come from at least. :D
Well said.
but how many people are there with that level of skill with a knife? or even a gun, for that matter. furthermore, how many people are there with the skill, and would ever use their skill/weapon in an offensive capacity?
when we argue things like "gun vs knife lethality," we pretty much need to do it within the context of street fights- and probably 99% of street fights do not involve anyone with any degree of "proficiency," in the way we'd mean it here.
Well pretty much everyone who has graduated from State Prisons. Technique of choice with a knife: "The Singer Sewing Machine" stab, grab a hold of victim and stab until he is dead or knife breaks. Just because their technique is crude in comparison to someone proficient in the a Filipino Martial Art, doesn't mean it is not effective.
The biggest thing that seperates the predators from the civilian is their mindset. If they have decided to rob, stab, shoot, and/or kill you, there is no hesitation, it is all out attack.
I guess that something went over my head. I don't understand the reason for posting the photo of a nekkid lard ass fruit playing with his man tits. This belongs in the butt plug section
Well pretty much everyone who has graduated from State Prisons. Technique of choice with a knife: "The Singer Sewing Machine" stab, grab a hold of victim and stab until he is dead or knife breaks.
Similar to the kind of technique I was trained to use with firearms. Shoot'em till they drop or you are at slide lock.
I know several instructors that do advise, if close enough, to grab the Bad guy and hang onto him as you dump a bunch of rounds into them.
More similar than dissimilar and for the same reasons.
Go figure.
Fred
There are alot of variables that come into play when you discuss the lethality of a knife vs gun. I believe that the real advantage of the knife comes within contact distance. Within two arms reach a knife attack happens far too quickly for even a highly skilled person to draw and get hits. Even if you do manage to get the gun into play, simply grabbing it and pushing it out of battery would render it nearly useless.
But you cant grab a knife to control it. And even if you control the arm or wrist thats holding the knife you are still likely to get severely cut. Southnarc espouses the singer sewing machine methodology that has been mentioned here and with good reason. Decent knowledge of human anatomy(more importantly vascular anatomy) and some basic knife training is more than enough to make someone extremely dangerous with a good blade. Just insert that blade into as many arteries and vital structures as fast as possible and the end will come quickly via blood loss. If they go to block then shear the limb away with the inboard edge and continue the kebabing. Its a scary truth, and its why I carry a p'kal every where I go, including on patrol. Sometimes things just get too close to risk introducing a firearm. But good luck getting a knife from me...
I know this has been talked about ad nauseum and that its a little off topic from what the op was asking. But i think its a very interesting and serious topic thats too commonly ignored among armed professionals. I will visit the violent crimes section this week and see if i can have them compile some numbers for you Will. I know its only a small sample when compared to the whole country or the world, but its better than nothing.
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