The ill fated HK 1911...what was different?

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

"lthough few people realize this, the much-talked-about HK 45 was actually born out of an ill-fated HK 1911 program. A number of years ago Ken Hackathorn and I were consultants to Heckler & Koch on developing an enhanced 1911-type pistol. It would have had some excellent features,"

Vickers' said this in Guns and Ammo. Does anyone have any other details? Somebody who knows him ask please?:D

[Striker5]

I recall somewhere in the article he says that the HK 1911 "would price it's way out of the market" or words to that effect. A battleworthy 1911 (for complete consistency over a large production run) is at least a moderately expensive proposition. The tack on the fact that HK stuff is always pricey. Also HK is probably fat on military contracts and doesn't see the need to build something completely new for them that would be expensive to produce and export and appeal to a relatively small corner of the gun market.

This is all speculation of course.

[Matt Edwards]

P7,

Larry said it "never made it's way off the paper." (paraphrased)
The only things he mentions at the course, that I remember was it was to have a external extractor, the ejector was held in a different manner and a perhaps a integral plunger tube...

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Too bad that didn't come off the drawing board. It would have been nice to see what H&K could do with old slabby.

[Mojo58]

P7,

..... I remember was it was to have an external extractor, the ejector was held in a different manner and a perhaps a integral plunger tube...

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the external extractors the ones that were causing issues on some of the Kimber 1911s or do I have it the other way around and the problem being the internal extractors?

[M4Guru]

Yeah, all the current external extractors suck that are available. Hilton Yam has been working on one for a while that will work like a champ when he is satisfied with the results.

[trio]

I was under the impression that, while the Kimber External Extractor was a disaster and the Sig GSR wasnt MUCH better, the Smith and Wesson external extractor has been pretty successful...

From what I read and hear the S&W1911 and S&W1911PD series of guns are all experiencing a wide range of success and both, if I am not mistaken, feature an external extractor...(in fact, I dont seem to have read any more or less complaints about the S&W 1911s than I do about any of their other comprable counterparts....ie springfields, the basic colts, kimbers, etc....)

[rubberneck]

I was under the impression that, while the Kimber External Extractor was a disaster and the Sig GSR wasnt MUCH better, the Smith and Wesson external extractor has been pretty successful...

From what I read and hear the S&W1911 and S&W1911PD series of guns are all experiencing a wide range of success and both, if I am not mistaken, feature an external extractor...(in fact, I dont seem to have read any more or less complaints about the S&W 1911s than I do about any of their other comprable counterparts....ie springfields, the basic colts, kimbers, etc....)


Kimber's extractor was an unmitigated disaster and Smith and Wesson hasn't had any problems with theirs.

Sig had problems in the beginning but there is a story behind their problems. They were buying their external extractors from Wilson Combat who in turn were outsourcing them from a third party. Shortly before the GSR first came out the company making the part for Wilson changed the specs of the extractor without telling Wilson or Sig. That was the genesis of their issues. Sig hired George Smith at EGW to redesign and produce the new external extractor and since then they have been rock solid.

[M4Guru]

I have seen firsthand 3 SW1911s experience extraction problems that could not be fixed. One got a new Caspian slide, 2 went back to Smith. One of those worked well enough and the other was sold. That's enough for me not to trust them.

Only 3 is not too bad, though. You hear less about SW 1911s than others. If I went to school with all the time I spent fixing Kimber Series II guns I'd be doing heart transplants right now instead.

[Lumpy196]

I recall somewhere in the article he says that the HK 1911 "would price it's way out of the market" or words to that effect.

But I bet people would have gone nuts over the $52 rust prone 8 shot mags. :D

[Matt Edwards]

As has been stated, the current line of "external extracters" have caused major head aches. If I recall, in the resent class, it is 'cause they have been consistantly placed in the "wrong postion". I think Lav was working on this. I think when all was said and done, the "germans" just were not interested in it.
I'm only reporting what he told us about it. That does not mean that my memory is perfect. Just ask my wife...

[SuicideHz]

But I bet people would have gone nuts over the $52 rust prone 8 shot mags. :D

Good one!

I heard the Kimber extractors finally worked out- they operate like a Glock's even though they aren't perfect for the 45 etc.

But they had enough returns for fixes that they wanted to stay away from something that people were afraid of.

[olds442tyguy]

I've read from a few pople that the Smith and Wesson Perfromance Center extractors are about as good as you can get. Unlike the standard line, they're much bigger. It doesn't seem extractor problems on the regular Smith line are that bad, but that is only compared to other EE 1911's.



Sig had problems in the beginning but there is a story behind their problems. They were buying their external extractors from Wilson Combat who in turn were outsourcing them from a third party. Shortly before the GSR first came out the company making the part for Wilson changed the specs of the extractor without telling Wilson or Sig. That was the genesis of their issues. Sig hired George Smith at EGW to redesign and produce the new external extractor and since then they have been rock solid.

I heard when they started with the Caspian extractors, the guns ran fine. Then they contacted Wilson Combat for custom made extractors. Wilson then sent them unmodified extractors from their KZ45 line, which didn't work hardly at all in the Sigs. The extractors (and it's rumored the majority of the KZ45) was out sourced from a foreign company.

Sig then went the EGW route, and after having extreme issues with the KZ45 line, Wilson decided to dump the foreign extractor set ups all together for their own traditional kit.

This is just what I have read and I have no first hand knowledge on it. I've been trying to find for years who makes the KZ-45 for Wilson with no result. Their relatively new 9mm pistols are foreign, and were once imported by Heritage Arms for around $200. Wilson now sells the second generation of these pistols for about three times that. I'd be willing to bet the company who made the Heritage/ADP is also the same company who makes their KZ-45's, and is likely the company responsible for the mass amounts of faulty extractor Sig's and Wilson's.

[Grin Reaper]

Kimber's extractor was an unmitigated disaster Yup; sold my 'learing experience' last month.

[mike240]

I've read from a few pople that the Smith and Wesson Perfromance Center extractors are about as good as you can get. Unlike the standard line, they're much bigger. It doesn't seem extractor problems on the regular Smith line are that bad, but that is only compared to other EE 1911's.




I heard when they started with the Caspian extractors, the guns ran fine. Then they contacted Wilson Combat for custom made extractors. Wilson then sent them unmodified extractors from their KZ45 line, which didn't work hardly at all in the Sigs. The extractors (and it's rumored the majority of the KZ45) was out sourced from a foreign company.

Sig then went the EGW route, and after having extreme issues with the KZ45 line, Wilson decided to dump the foreign extractor set ups all together for their own traditional kit.

This is just what I have read and I have no first hand knowledge on it. I've been trying to find for years who makes the KZ-45 for Wilson with no result. Their relatively new 9mm pistols are foreign, and were once imported by Heritage Arms for around $200. Wilson now sells the second generation of these pistols for about three times that. I'd be willing to bet the company who made the Heritage/ADP is also the same company who makes their KZ-45's, and is likely the company responsible for the mass amounts of faulty extractor Sig's and Wilson's.

The pistol that some American Handgunner writer said was great as long as you super cleaned it every hundred rounds. After that it crashed. Who wants to do that or can trust it. I can't help but wonder why some gun writers can never call test guns what they are. When it was the Heritage 2000 they would have. But now Wilsons name is on it....

[JLM]

Yup; sold my 'learing experience' last month.

Welp, has anyone ever been able to get Kimber to swap out their slide for an internal? I haven't had any problems with mine, but it doesn't inspire confidence to say the least.

[Gunfighter13]

Welp, has anyone ever been able to get Kimber to swap out their slide for an internal? I haven't had any problems with mine, but it doesn't inspire confidence to say the least.

Kimbers standard fix for any of their guns with external extractors are to replace them. Everyone that went before fought the fight to get them replaced. Now Kimber just replaces them with the internal extractor design.

[JLM]

Kimbers standard fix for any of their guns with external extractors are to replace them. Everyone that went before fought the fight to get them replaced. Now Kimber just replaces them with the internal extractor design.

Thanks that's good to know, it wasn't six months ago when I enquired about this, and kinda got stonewalled by them. So, is this a recent policy change? Furthermore, does anyone have a good contact there?

[rubberneck]

I've read from a few pople that the Smith and Wesson Perfromance Center extractors are about as good as you can get. Unlike the standard line, they're much bigger. It doesn't seem extractor problems on the regular Smith line are that bad, but that is only compared to other EE 1911's.




I heard when they started with the Caspian extractors, the guns ran fine. Then they contacted Wilson Combat for custom made extractors. Wilson then sent them unmodified extractors from their KZ45 line, which didn't work hardly at all in the Sigs. The extractors (and it's rumored the majority of the KZ45) was out sourced from a foreign company.

Sig then went the EGW route, and after having extreme issues with the KZ45 line, Wilson decided to dump the foreign extractor set ups all together for their own traditional kit.

This is just what I have read and I have no first hand knowledge on it. I've been trying to find for years who makes the KZ-45 for Wilson with no result. Their relatively new 9mm pistols are foreign, and were once imported by Heritage Arms for around $200. Wilson now sells the second generation of these pistols for about three times that. I'd be willing to bet the company who made the Heritage/ADP is also the same company who makes their KZ-45's, and is likely the company responsible for the mass amounts of faulty extractor Sig's and Wilson's.

I was told that story by someone directly involved with the project at the time. Since I have not asked him for permission to attach his name to it pubically I won't, but I am very comfortable with the accuracy of what I said.