View Full Version : Must have gear?
For say a Carbine course...
I dont know if i should get a chest rig or a war belt. I figure the war belt would be better for comp's, like 3-gun. The chest rig would be better for training courses and SHTF. I am i correct in with this thought?
Would this be a good starter rig?
http://www.skdtac.com/Eagle_M4_Chest_Rig_LE_6_Mag_p/eag.562.htm
or
http://www.skdtac.com/Eagle_M4_Chest_Rig_LE_3_Mag_p/eag.563.htm
The second gives me more room for pistol mag pouches.
What may work for me may not work for you. You might go one route and go through your course and think to yourself "wow, I don't like this setup". Its a guessing game until you find what works for you. Get what you think is best, hopefully you guess right the first time around.
skd_tactical
09-27-10, 09:43
I prefer a chest rig.
The reason for this is because I spend quite a bit of time in a vehicle. Having a war-belt type set-up can get pretty annoying while seated. Especially if you are wearing armor or trying to reload. You have to shift your weight to grab the mags while seated. Having the mags directly on my chest is much easier for me.
I have run into problems where I had double stacked mags on my chest, then 8 M203 Rounds. After two hours like this I had to reposition the 203 rounds because I would hit my hands on them, or hit the steering wheel.
If you have some friends with rigs, try them out. Think of what you will be doing with it on (unless it's for competition only, don't assume that you will be shooting all the time). I have deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan and I spent way more time NOT shooting (like 99%). Most of the time you will be walking, patrolling, or driving.
SOS
Purely on foot, belts are easily the most cost effective - you could build a very effective setup on a tight budget (DBT MOLLE Belt, BFG Suspenders, MOLLE pouches).
I agree that chest rigs are preferable for vehicles, or as a supplement for other loads. Simple, light chest rigs seem to be the most preferable, or even running smaller bandoleers.
The OSOE micro rigs can work very well, or building your own off a compact chest rig.
My next Afghanistan trip will definitely involve a chest rig, since I had to spend too much time doing odd stuff (driving, turret gunning, foot patrolling, or other inane tasks that needed vests but not the junk I had on them), and the ability to have something simple to have on or off is huge.
If you're looking at buying a lot of it, in addition to evaluating what ammunition carriage you need, evaluate hydration and med/gp storage as well. Hydration for classes can be extremely important. A place for a boo-boo kit and/or GSWK needs to be a consideration - and the overall weight of this adds up fast...
I'd second the recommendation to try other shooters' rigs, and ask for their explanation of why they chose it, and what strengths and weaknesses they've seen.
Not sure what your real life situation is ..... but for me as a regular Joe Civi I know I will likely never gear up with a chest rig or war belt in the event I pull the AR from the safe. I am more likely to throw a mag or two in my belt line (or in clip on pouches if I have time) or grab a shoulder bag and go. Because of this ... when I took a carbine course this summer I bought two single pouches from SKD and a dump pouch and went with that. No, it wasn't fancy but it was real. YMMV.
Now, there were guys that showed up geared for battle ... head to toe camo ... gear hanging everywhere ... eating MREs during break ...
jasonhgross
09-28-10, 14:11
I totally agree with Volgrad's method. Same here, as a civilian shooter I base everything off of the most likely event and dress circumstances surrounding it. Given that, I am most likely to be walking around in shorts or naked at home. Since I cant do that in a class, I put on a belt pouch (bladetech from brownells) and use a dump pouch just for expediency. But in the past I went to classes with just a pair of 5.11's stuffing mags in my back pocket for reloads. It works and works well. At the average range trip I do the same, reloading from back jeans pockets. Retention isnt as good, but speed is decent and it replicates how I will most likely be fighting with the carbine.
I've recently wrestled with the same decisions you are contemplating now. After reading a lot on this site I've decided for carbine classes I'll use kydex belt carriers in conjunction with the Eagle M4 chest rig I bought last week. After much reading I found myself agreeing with arguments made by rob_s . He recommended using belt pouches and resupplying them from the chest rig. I won’t try to reiterate his thoughts, I’d just mess them up. Check these posts for some good insights though:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24843
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63212
For what it’s worth, I really like the simplicity of the Eagle rig and for the use I plan the open top pouches are perfect. Good luck.
Moose-Knuckle
09-28-10, 18:19
Now, there were guys that showed up geared for battle ... head to toe camo ... gear hanging everywhere ... eating MREs during break ...
Wow, just wow! :eek: Did they happen to work at the local indoor shopping emporium (aka the mall)?
skd_tactical
09-29-10, 07:42
Wow, just wow! :eek: Did they happen to work at the local indoor shopping emporium (aka the mall)?
I barely even eat them when I have too. Half the weight of my ruck is Pogey bait.
The one thing I really have to stress is to train how you are going to fight. I will fight 9 times out of 10 with my body Armor on, so that's what I wear when I go to the range to practice. While the home invasion scenario is possible, I don't foresee myself needing more than one mag. If it's a SHTF type scenario my gear will go with me, in fact that gear, medical gear, and self-sustainment (food, water, blankets) gear will go over most other items.
SOS
J-Dub,
I'd say that for a basic class, either of those two chest rigs would work, and if they didn't, you'll find an eager market for used Eagle chest rigs here. But like others have said, consider a sturdy belt with a couple of mag pouches, if that would more closely mimic a real life load out for you.
If you have access to Lightfighter, Pat Rogers put up a great post ref. gearing up for classes. Essentially, you need handgun mags, carbine mags, maybe a dump pouch, and a handgun holster. Unless you know what your fighting load out is (primarily for mil/le), then less is initially more, especially if the class is going to be moderately physical.
IMHO, medkits, unless part of a working kit, can stay in the range bag or even a cargo pocket.
I have an article coming out in SWAT on this at some point. What it boils down to for me is to establish your primary weapon (if you're civilian, LE too, it's the handgun most likely) and establish your reason for training. Do these two things and the question of how you should carry your load will almost answer itself.
The "war belt" can be made to work and maintain your training with your primary (handgun) but IMHO it takes more work. I think that the A-answer for most non-LE civilian shooters is single carbine mag pouch on the belt added to the every day carry setup (pistol, two mags, maybe a light), and a chest rig used to back-feed the belt pouch. Pat Rogers requires 5 magazines on the shooter (1 in the gun plus 4 more) and the above plus a dump pouch easily accommodates this.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/Fileiddg8rvhdd_12fc9hh2hm_b.jpg
I will be going to my first class the end of November and what I've settled on, for now, is a Mayflower UW Chest rig. Light, simple, carries what little I will need according to the course description and then some. I've been shooting with it quite a bit and like it very much. I've thought about a belt rig and there is one on US Grunt Gear that I like but if I do that it will be after the class and I have a chance to evaluate the Mayflower rig.
If I have to pull my weapon out of the bedroom closet and use it right then I'm also grabbing 2 mags out of the nitestand and shoving one in my waist band and the other in the weapon. However if it's in the middle of the night, the first thing I'm reaching for is my M&P 45 and an extra mag. There are so many different scenerios that you could make a good case for about any setup. I would think that you have to prepare to fight an survive with the absolute minimum amount of gear available at that point in time. Anything extra would be a luxury and make things that much easier.
Thanks for all the input guys. I'm def. not a "highspeed gear bomber", which is why i want to keep it to either just a belt or a very small chest rig.
I am leaning towards a belt now. 2 AR mags, 2 pistol mags, and maybe a dump pouch.
My current situation is just normal citizen, BUT....Since i just graduated i am now looking for an opprotunity to begin a career in law enforcement....which is proving to be difficult.
I went with an Eagle Chest Rig and a single AR mag pouch on my belt for my class as it required 5 mags.
I was, and still am, a big fan of the Eagle M4FB chest rig, but US Grunt Gear (http://usgruntgear.com/m1rarelitrma.html) now makes a rig based on a design he and I worked out together that I like a lot more. I have one of these that's three carbine mags and one custom one that's two carbine mags, a pouch for the BFG TKN (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=119), and a utility pouch for a light or multitool.
calicojack
09-29-10, 11:58
I was, and still am, a big fan of the Eagle M4FB chest rig, but US Grunt Gear (http://usgruntgear.com/m1rarelitrma.html) now makes a rig based on a design he and I worked out together that I like a lot more. I have one of these that's three carbine mags and one custom one that's two carbine mags, a pouch for the BFG TKN (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=119), and a utility pouch for a light or multitool.
man. that's a slick rig. if the end user wanted to have more mags, he could step to the OSOE 6 mag stacker (http://www.originalsoegear.com/6stacked.html) that came out with on march 14th of this year.
edit: mis-spoke the date. not april, but march
titsonritz
09-29-10, 12:10
I highly recommend an O.S.O.E. Micro rig. It can be set up as a chest rig or shoulder bag and works fine with your CCW gear. It will hold four AR/AK mags (there is a 308 version also), a trauma kit, a couple of mini smoke and has PALS for attaching TQs. It is a minimal investment that will get you up and running and you can look around for something larger down the road if you feel the need. IMO most civilians don’t really have a true need for anything more. It is built super tough and will last a life time.
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=58&products_id=4136
An even smaller version with open top and tear-off med kit:
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=58&products_id=4319
If someone you know has any of the gear you are thinking about purchasing, try it out. Once you get stuff on and start moving/shooting you will find what works and what doesn't work. Adjust fire/make changes and go again. Trial and error will lead you to your best set up.
US Grunt Gear (http://usgruntgear.com/m1rarelitrma.html) now makes a rig...
Before I ask my question, darn you straight to heck for showing me that. I've got an Eagle FB rig that I'm still seeing if I like for classes vs. the SKD Universal, but I don't need these kinds of temptations...:mad:
The M-buckles on the lower portion of the rig: is somebody thinking that a user will want to join the chest rig to a 1st-line belt with corresponding suspender M-buckles?
If not, what are those for?
Not necessarily first-line, but they come with loops so you could attach it to a belt. Robert had concerns that the rig wouldn't stay put without them so he included them. I cut them off my prototype and also skipped them on subsequent orders. You can request that they be omitted (I would) if you order, or simply cut them off if you forget.
I've run the below rig in several classes (including EAG and FPF) with positive results. No, it's not flashy or what the pros use, but for my mission it's damn near perfect. YMMV.
Eagle patrol bandoleer (http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=132&cat=94&page=1)
I think i'll go with a eagle chest rig..
http://www.skdtac.com/Eagle_M4_Chest_Rig_LE_3_Mag_p/eag.563.htm
for my AR mags and a regular duty belt rigged with, holster, 2 pistol mag holders, and a AR mag holder. With the chest rig i dont think a molle sys. of a war belt setup is needed.
Not sure what duty belt to go with, maybe an eagle as well.
I just told another person asking a similar question in another forum. The Intrepid Chest Rig (http://www.aresarmor.com/install/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=ICR1CT). I didn't see TAG mentioned once. Thought it was strange.
Jdub, you mention a duty belt, are you LE?
Not atm, but i'm putting in applications. My latest is Tx DPS...god i hope i make it!!
Clean back ground, 4yr degree, athletic, smart....what else could they want? lol
Kentucky Cop
10-04-10, 13:46
Not atm, but i'm putting in applications. My latest is Tx DPS...god i hope i make it!!
Clean back ground, 4yr degree, athletic, smart....what else could they want? lol
..........fluent in spanish???!!! :D
Good luck. Put in as many applications while you wait for the one you want. Nothing wrong with having a few hot pokers in the fire. I put in for several (FL HWP, TX DPS, Louisville, Lexington, Charlotte Meck etc.) and got the one I wanted. I hear Austin is a progressive department along with all those mid size suburbs around Dallas. (Cant think of the names for the life of me). Hang in there, its a LONG process.
KC
Not atm, but i'm putting in applications. My latest is Tx DPS...god i hope i make it!!
Clean back ground, 4yr degree, athletic, smart....what else could they want? lol
Good luck!! I'd love to get out of CA and move back out towards TN, NC or even TX.
It's even scarcer here in CA. Luckily I've been on awhile with my current department (9 years).
Most agencies here have been laying off. Only people getting hired are laterals. Not academy grads but guys/gals who've been on with a department for a few years.
Even then, it's super competitive. Example: My little brother has 4 years with the Corps (3 tours in-country w/Force) and 3 years on with his current department. He lateraled over to another department against dudes with experience and education such as yours.
He came out #1 with his beat partner #2.
I would go with a minimal belt-based setup for a typical carbine course. I'm using ReadyTactical kydex pouches for my AR and Glock magazines, and have been very impressed. They're available at skd and are very well-made. Good retention, fast draw and a low-profile on the belt. As a civilian shooter, I'm not likely to use a chest rig or plate carrier; more realistic for me to reload from my waist. Your situation may dictate that you use something else.
zk
Used intelligently to back feed other pouches such as belt-mounted or Redimag chest rigs are a good tool for training and do not result in training scars. How else is one to carry five mags to the line on higher volume classes?
are any of those Redimags or Fastmags molle adaptable?
The Redimag is a device that clamps on to the magwell of the gun. I'm not sure how it could be made molle compatible, or what you'd do with it if it was.
The Fastmag comes in two versions, one a "belt" mount and one a MOLLE mount. The good news is that the belt version is exactly the same as the MOLLE version but without the two tabs at the top.
I'm LE right now and the handgun does serve as our "primary" weapon in most instances even though we can check out long arms. Magazines, along with a radio, non lethal devices, flashlight, knife, multi-tool, GPS, cell phone, and whatever else is carried on a duty belt. As of right now, I would barely have room for a mag holster on the belt.
With that said, I find carrying everything on the belt uncomfortable. I don't like all that weight on my hips. Even though I wasn't in for long, I've gotten used to wearing some type of armor on my body with everything attached to it. This is still the way I prefer. The only thing I want on a belt is my handgun and its holster.
SKD brought up an excellent point about being in a vehicle as well. I am in a vehicle a large portion of my time on duty, and the belt becomes even more uncomfortable. Not to mention, my "primary" weapon is harder to get to in the seated position.
A long arm if checked out, although against policy, should not be in the gun lock in my opinion. I know the agency has not trained its agents to obtain a long arm out of the lock, which you have to click a specific button on a control panel with a variety of other buttons to release (very fine motor skill). I have received training in the service to evac from a vehicle with artificially induced stress and it isn't easy. So, although difficult, it is actually easier to go for your "primary" weapon I think.
I also agree that in a home invasion, you won't need to don your gear.
With all that said, I prefer the use of a chest rig over a belt. I have used a chest rig (for the first time I might add) in a non formal shooting competition and it performed very well (although I did not). I don't really use it for work, but my goal is to make that rig a SHTF setup. If I had to bring it to work, or to take it somewhere, I want all the essentials on that over a war belt. I just bought some hard plates, and my only dillemma right now is how to use the rig while wearing plates.
Do people ever wear a chest rig over a plate carrier? It seems kind of weird. Remember that my point of view is coming from having to wear that flak vest made by PointBlank that doesn't have MOLLE webbing throughout and dons like a jacket and the ESAPIs fit inside a front flap, and the rear one slides down inside from the top. I see pics of troops now (non SF) that seem to have better carriers than we were issued.
My suggestion is to get a simple rig, especially from SKD. :laugh:
The Redimag is a device that clamps on to the magwell of the gun. I'm not sure how it could be made molle compatible, or what you'd do with it if it was.
The Fastmag comes in two versions, one a "belt" mount and one a MOLLE mount. The good news is that the belt version is exactly the same as the MOLLE version but without the two tabs at the top.
my bad. I meant Ready Tactical Ambi Speed Mag Pouch. :agree:
http://www.skdtac.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RDT.110-2T.jpg
I read your post above mine where you talk about back-filling your Redimag and I got that Freudian slippage thing happening there...
I took Pat Rogers' rifle class a few months ago to fine tune my skills for police patrol use. I had borrowed a chest rig from a friend and am about to return it to him because for what I need I hate it. The rig makes it very difficult to get my handgun in and out of the holster, which is life critical.
After the class I ended up investing in a leg rig for the mags. I put the buckle under my support side belt on my under belt. I can quickly clip it on when needed and it's out of the way of my belt and everything I'm used to carrying.
I also found that the chest rig got in the way of shouldering the rifle. Just my opinions.
titsonritz
10-05-10, 04:34
cj5_dude brings up a good point, a lot of chest rigs are too large and do not work well daily carry gear whether it be CCW or duty. The O.S.O.E. Micro Rig series was designed specifically as an active shooter rig to quickly and easily supplement your standard carry equipment with 4 rifle mags, a trauma kit and a copy pocket smokes. They are compact enough to stay clear while drawing your carry piece and can be set up as chests rigs, (perfect for duty gear or strong side CCW) or as a shoulder bag (works better with appendix carry than a chest rig). J_B has a cool variant (maybe he’ll post a pic) that may the perfect LEO setup, he calls it the PigRig, it is set up for carbine and gauge use.
All that said, I purchased a subload prior to a chest rig because I was not sure which rig I wanted/needed and wanted more time to do my research, check some out and what not. I didn’t want to drop the coin on a chest rig just to end hating it and selling at a loss. Since I don’t like rifle mags on my belt (at least not extra tall, extra sharp AK mags) I decided to get a quality subload. I ended up going with an O.S.O.E. Rallyman Subload which gave me the ability to carry (6) AR, (4) AK or (4) M14/FAL/G3, etc and (2) pistol mags. I mean to tell you this thing is major league tough, very stable and has the best thigh straps I’ve ever used. These days I just keep the hanger mounted on my belt and can snap in the subload to augment any chest rig or use it as a stand alone.
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=58&products_id=3451
If I was running an AR only, I’d have gone with a CQB Subload, it’s nice and compact and holds (4) AR with (2) pistol mags.
http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=58&sort=2a&filter_id=88
BLACK LION
10-06-10, 14:56
I just told another person asking a similar question in another forum. The Intrepid Chest Rig (http://www.aresarmor.com/install/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=ICR1CT). I didn't see TAG mentioned once. Thought it was strange.
That is strange....
From my lane... I just keep trying different shyt until I find something that fits a general purpose.
Even being a civilian I can perceive the need for a full kit with armor included although I may not suit up to dispatch a threat in my home, I spend allot of time in the wilderness and what seemed to be un-necessary before becomes and absolute necessity out there so I try to find a common ground.
I have reduced my whoreness a great deal and have rid myself of many things that I thought would work.
BLACK LION
10-06-10, 15:04
Good luck!! I'd love to get out of CA and move back out towards TN, NC or even TX.
It's even scarcer here in CA. Luckily I've been on awhile with my current department (9 years).
Most agencies here have been laying off. Only people getting hired are laterals. Not academy grads but guys/gals who've been on with a department for a few years.
Even then, it's super competitive. Example: My little brother has 4 years with the Corps (3 tours in-country w/Force) and 3 years on with his current department. He lateraled over to another department against dudes with experience and education such as yours.
He came out #1 with his beat partner #2.
+1 My brother has a degree, super squeaky clean nose and paid for the "Academy" onnhis own and graduated in april. According to the powers that be, heis doing everything right but he is "just not competitive enough"... Hes going up against way harder, more vetted dudes with experience eons beyond the job description fighting are fighting him for the same slot in line...
Just keep pluggin away at it and it should pay off...thats what they want to see anyway. Even thought they reject you they want you to keep trying.
I just told another person asking a similar question in another forum. The Intrepid Chest Rig (http://www.aresarmor.com/install/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=ICR1CT). I didn't see TAG mentioned once. Thought it was strange.
I also have a TAG Gladiator rig. I like it and it is very well built but it just seems a bit bulky to me. I'm not that tall 5'5" and 175. It fits fine and doesn't hang too low at all but with the 6 mags across the front it makes me feel as if I have to keep my arms out from my body to keep from rubbing on it. As far as a class item I like how the Mayflower UW rig is lighter, more compact and easire to maneuver with. I've kinda classified the 2 rigs I have in this manner. The Gladiator would be a more go to battle rig that I could wear over armor. The Mayflower is more of a training/class setup that I can carry all day and not really feel like I am. I like both but for different reason.
I also have a TAG Gladiator rig. I like it and it is very well built but it just seems a bit bulky to me. I'm not that tall 5'5" and 175. It fits fine and doesn't hang too low at all but with the 6 mags across the front it makes me feel as if I have to keep my arms out from my body to keep from rubbing on it. As far as a class item I like how the Mayflower UW rig is lighter, more compact and easire to maneuver with. I've kinda classified the 2 rigs I have in this manner. The Gladiator would be a more go to battle rig that I could wear over armor. The Mayflower is more of a training/class setup that I can carry all day and not really feel like I am. I like both but for different reason.
Train how you fight.
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