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C4IGrant
09-27-10, 16:17
Guys, just wanted to say that we had a good time and that it was nice to meet all of you.

Everyone did a good job and hopefully learned something out of it.




C4

mkemmerl
09-27-10, 17:12
It was definitely a good time! The shoothouse brought out all of my bad habits in high speed. "Humbling" was a word I heard from more than one student. I am looking forward to spending more time in the house next year. And now I know what to work on between now and then too.

Big thanks to C4I and Sgt Watson for sharing their skills and insights with us.

Mark

orionz06
09-27-10, 18:02
A lot of the stuff is pretty obvious when you make the mistakes (despite knowing better), but the video really shows what you did wrong.

Sifting through my pics now, I have some good ones (including a piece of perfection choked up). I will post them in a bit.

Stonebridge
09-27-10, 18:03
Home Defense post-training impressions:

* If you insist on having a gunfight, have it outside.

* The words "horrible place to do a mag change" are forever stamped on my brain.

* If it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting a few more times.

* It's way too easy to get drawn into the threat; once I saw the gun, the background in the photo-real targets disappeared.

* LEOs need to wear big flashing strobe-light hats or something. I managed to avoid shooting any cops or hostages but it was real close a couple times.

* Thrown shots have to land somewhere which tends to alter the well-being of innocent bystanders.

* My bathrobe needs mag pouches.

* If I strike it rich, I'm going to hire Grant to design my mansion to be the easiest-to-clear residence available; those cross-hallway rooms with doors ajar suuucked.

Had a phenomenal time and learned a ton. Grant and Ben did a fantastic job with a great mix of drills that kept the challenge level high but the round-count relatively low. Walking the catwalk afterward and seeing these videos was invaluable. Truly an awesome and eye-opening experience. Looking forward to taking more of these classes as they become available.

Thanks guys,

-Dan

telecustom
09-27-10, 18:28
[QUOTE=Stonebridge;769360]

* My bathrobe needs mag pouches.

That is the quote of the week. Glad you guys had so much fun.

UDT
09-27-10, 19:00
Nice AAR. Thanks, for sharing.

MTechnik
09-27-10, 19:17
Wow, Grant, that is awesome. You could feel the tension. And that was on a one-way range.

I like how you changed where you took the 2nd video after the barrel-sweeping in the first.

C4IGrant
09-27-10, 19:46
It was definitely a good time! The shoothouse brought out all of my bad habits in high speed. "Humbling" was a word I heard from more than one student. I am looking forward to spending more time in the house next year. And now I know what to work on between now and then too.

Big thanks to C4I and Sgt Watson for sharing their skills and insights with us.

Mark

This is why this type of training is so important. It shows you your weaknesses like no other training does.

To be good at room clearing, you have to be able to make correct decisions at full speed. Know when to slow down and when to speed up. Use cover properly, stay out of the hallways and doorways and positively ID your target.


C4

C4IGrant
09-27-10, 19:56
Wow, Grant, that is awesome. You could feel the tension. And that was on a one-way range.

I like how you changed where you took the 2nd video after the barrel-sweeping in the first.

Tension was high. Some guys had to be told to breath while others hands shook so badly that I don't know how they hit anything.

Hackathorn advised me some time ago that being swept was part of the deal (especially when teaching room clearing). I was wearing body armorer and to be honest, I don't get to excited about it any more (as long as their finger is straight). :nono:


C4

MTechnik
09-27-10, 20:27
I can see that being part of the deal.

Great offering and a great opportunity for everyone.

Stonebridge
09-27-10, 20:35
Definitely guilty of shaking hands. Funny how the human mind works. Truth is, we were in a big wooden box just punching holes in paper yet every guy completely committed to the concept that it was totally serious.

C4: I wish we could've gotten film of you and Sgt. Watson going through the house so we could've seen what 'full-speed' looked like. I know it felt like I took for...ev...er. Using the posted clips as a benchmark, about how fast should that setup be cleared?

Also, when approaching the last room on the left (the one set up so the door wouldn't remain open) I was able to see the 'no-shoot' cop target through the hinge crack. I didn't want to game the drill (and it wasn't my door to potentially put holes in) but what's your thought on engaging a target through that slit rather than working around the concealment of the door?

Thanks,

-D

1911pro
09-27-10, 20:50
Tension was high. Some guys had to be told to breath while others hands shook so badly that I don't know how they hit anything.

Hackathorn advised me some time ago that being swept was part of the deal (especially when teaching room clearing). I was wearing body armorer and to be honest, I don't get to excited about it any more (as long as their finger is straight). :nono:


C4
The three big "OHH SSHHIIITTT" feelings of my day in the house.
1. I felt like crap after I swept the catwalk on the last time thru. Barrel down, I will tell myself forever.
2. What the hell! My gun is empty and I am in the open with a bad guy in front of me. I think I missed with my last round. I want my mommy!!!!
3. You are told that you killed all the GOOD guys except for two.

We will not talk about my square range mistakes.

Great class and many many lessons learned. Thanks again to Grant and Ben!

C4IGrant
09-27-10, 21:05
C4: I wish we could've gotten film of you and Sgt. Watson going through the house so we could've seen what 'full-speed' looked like. I know it felt like I took for...ev...er. Using the posted clips as a benchmark, about how fast should that setup be cleared?

In two man or one man? In a defensive clear (one man) you should be able to clear that house in under 5 minutes I think. In an offensive clear (two man), you should be able to burn through the house in under 2 minutes.


Also, when approaching the last room on the left (the one set up so the door wouldn't remain open) I was able to see the 'no-shoot' cop target through the hinge crack. I didn't want to game the drill (and it wasn't my door to potentially put holes in) but what's your thought on engaging a target through that slit rather than working around the concealment of the door?

Thanks,

-D

in the real world, if you can see the threat through the door jam, take the shot.


C4

AR-15Tom
09-27-10, 21:38
This is why this type of training is so important. It shows you your weaknesses like no other training does.

To be good at room clearing, you have to be able to make correct decisions at full speed. Know when to slow down and when to speed up. Use cover properly, stay out of the hallways and doorways and positively ID your target.


C4

My experience in the shoot house was eye opening to say the least. It was surprising to see how easy it is to record low-quality hits and even throw shots entirely from only a few feet away when the pressure was on.

One of my many lessons learned was not to take the fundamentals for granted. If youíre screwing up at the square range your mistakes will be multiplied substantially in the shoot house. Thanks to Sundayís instruction I have a list of items I need to work on, and itís longer than I would like to admit.

Thank you Grant and Sgt. Watson for sharing your insight and expertise with us. I look forward to improving as a shooter and learning more from each of you in the future.

orionz06
09-27-10, 21:44
Some pics... Note that I was only able to follow about 2 people through the house and get pics, I have about 100 per person and some of the warm up stuff on the range as well.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5032109690_448595cda3_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5031482521_e922e49d10_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5031484629_cac83e4e0b_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5032107278_0e664167ba_b.jpg
Somehow I think this would make a great demotivator poster....

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5031481671_cf46bd8ff5_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5031478849_e3d63aca85_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5032097118_38573a9f5d_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5031497495_82998be19a_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5031499105_b9e1ab1e67_b.jpg

orionz06
09-27-10, 21:48
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5031501531_615dba5e6a_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5032119674_386ea27f6d_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5032121878_7c2ab7e171_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4144/5032122704_87d0996f3f_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5032123036_29b6949d52_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5031506723_e26ae6f9af_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5032124858_4575805363_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5032125968_f3d2bc75ac_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5031509759_15a9f2715c_b.jpg
You can see the badge from the catwalk...

orionz06
09-27-10, 21:53
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5031510215_62343201b3_b.jpg
Perfection!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/5032128966_49843bf418_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5031512763_b51f27ca50_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5031515883_56b4bb19dd_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5031517641_8a8d13b1ec_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5031503195_94457ed3d7_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5031488651_23fc576184_b.jpg

orionz06
09-27-10, 21:57
All of my pics are HERE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomkelley/sets/72157625049752074/), if you are gonna save any of the images, save the "original" size, it is the largest.

VLODPG
09-27-10, 22:05
That looked like an excellent training opportunity.

Did you guys rent out a range or is that Grants personal funhouse?

mkemmerl
09-28-10, 08:28
Great pics! Thanks for being our official photographer.


Perfection!

Are you picking on my poor old G19? :)

orionz06
09-28-10, 08:35
Great pics! Thanks for being our official photographer.



Are you picking on my poor old G19? :)

Now who would go and mention anything about a Glock choking up 2-3 times in one low round count day? :haha::haha::haha:

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 08:42
That looked like an excellent training opportunity.

Did you guys rent out a range or is that Grants personal funhouse?

It is Ft. Harmar's Shoot house (which is a private gun club).



C4

Complication
09-28-10, 09:02
You can see the badge from the catwalk...

Lies, damn dirty lies!

orionz06
09-28-10, 09:08
Thoughts:

Having been through some similar type set ups, this is really the first time I got worked up, and I got very worked up. I felt I was able to still do well, I just didnt. My footwork seemed decent, as well as the gun handling, I was kind of mixed leaving a few rooms. My thoughts were to keep the muzzle away from Grant and go into sul, and thinking about it a little more, I am pretty comfortable shooting from sul, almost more than low ready, so perhaps a little more work with this and I wont feel as weird about it. I crowded cover a little bit, partly because I reverted back to what we did on the range before hand. In my past experiences I have always tried to stay as far back as possible, and this was mentioned afterwards.

My reloads, I should have stayed in a cleared room (that I was a little more sure about clearing) and did a tac reload. I was happy that my natural response after being worked up was to get behind the wall, but in the real world that is not cover. My second tac reload was foolish at best, and as soon as it was too late, I knew what I did wrong. Hopefully it takes being an idiot on video to embed that into my brain.

One thing I noticed that I did that helped me from shooting cops was using the cracks in the doors to see what was there, on the next to last room you can see me do that (sort of), but I probably should have been at low ready rather than showing the cop the muzzle.

Other than that, I am happy I didnt collapse completely, but I definitely wanna get another chance at this for sure.

Other thoughts that are a carry over from a recent class are to slooow down. I didnt win a fastest shooter prize at the Hackathorn class and I dont think Grant issued any certificates this weekend either. Seeing it on video is a good way to remind me of this. I also need to perhaps put a few more shots on target and pay more attention to the target itself. Most of them I was good with, but there was one target where my shots were more towards the center of the target than the vital zones, this is where target selection helps. It also shows that I need to slooow down some more. Make my hits count. Again, looking like a fool might be the best way to break this habit.


I also noticed (and have pictures of) a few people crossing their feet in some of the range drills. I recall Sgt. Watson mentioning this to some, but it is a hard habit to break. It took me a little bit to get over it, and I still have some hesitance at times and want to cross my feet (carry over from another sport), but Ken Hackathorns Advanced class was a good class to bust through this. It also helped with movement in general.



My take away points:


Slow down
Make the shots count
Move
Slice the pie
Slow down
ID the target, not everyone with a gun is a BG
ID the target, not everyone with armor is a GG
Use the cracks in the door
Find a good ready position that allows movement and is safe for those you dont want to shoot. This also means a ready position without the finger in the trigger
Positin of the gun in your ready position will prevent you from seeing badges
No one was told to shoot faster



For a one day session, this was excellent to give a lot of things to work on. In the past I have struggled with what to do, and I believe Sgt. Watson mentioned that anyone can go shoot a case of ammo, but you need a plan. This is again the same point mentioned by others and stressed a lot. 100 plannedrounds is better than a case of shooting.

Another thing that wasn't stressed the whole time, but should be obvious is that people should try their best to take a class. I think I benefited greatly from the past regional group work, but all the pieces came together in my first class. (I know this sounds like a sales pitch, but it is the truth)

mkemmerl
09-28-10, 09:22
Now who would go and mention anything about a Glock choking up 2-3 times in one low round count day? :haha::haha::haha:

It was twice... and that gun is probably as old as you! I only keep it to practice clearing malfunctions :sarcastic:

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:22
Now who would go and mention anything about a Glock choking up 2-3 times in one low round count day? :haha::haha::haha:

The only gun I saw malfunction was that G19 (GEN 3). This is hands down one of the most reliable defensive HG's in the WORLD.

Lesson learned, everything made by man can and will fail at the worst possible moment (like opening a door and finding a bad guy standing in front of you). Talk about your OH SHIT moments!



C4

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:27
I have some good pics (ground level) that I will break up into sections (Front Door Entry, Kitchen, Hallway and Bedroom(s).

What is important (and a good training aid) is to look at how some shooters used cover and how others stood in the open. Also pay attention to foot work. A lot of shooters had the wrong foot forward which caused a weird shooting position and limited their mobility.


C4



http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Door_Entry.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Door_Entry1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Door_Entry2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Door_Entry3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Door_entry4.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Front_Dorr_Entry3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_entry5.jpg

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:30
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry4.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Kitchen_Entry6.jpg

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:31
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Hallway.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Hallway1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Hallway2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Hallway3.jpg

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:34
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry4.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry5.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry6.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Bedroom_Entry7.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/bedroom_entry8.jpg

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:38
I am a firm believer in using FULL COLOR targets. Why? I think it is good to look a bad guy in the eyes and see a weapon pointed at you (ups the stress level).

Here are some of the targets we used:

DEAD COP
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Al_Pacino.jpg

Watch out for those Pregnant women with guns!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Pregnant_BG.jpg

Sgt. Watson telling the shooter why he sucks.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C_Regional_HD/Peanut_Gallery.jpg

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:41
Lies, damn dirty lies!

Ya know, I told Sgt. Watson that at the Vickers HD class at BW that A LOT OF COPS were shot. Then at this class A LOT OF COPS were shot.

I think he is reconsidering his line of work (or ever producing his badge in an off duty shooting). :no:



C4

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:47
Thoughts:


My take away points:


Slow down
Make the shots count
Move
Slice the pie
Slow down
ID the target, not everyone with a gun is a BG
ID the target, not everyone with armor is a GG
Use the cracks in the door
Find a good ready position that allows movement and is safe for those you dont want to shoot. This also means a ready position without the finger in the trigger
Positin of the gun in your ready position will prevent you from seeing badges
No one was told to shoot faster



For a one day session, this was excellent to give a lot of things to work on. In the past I have struggled with what to do, and I believe Sgt. Watson mentioned that anyone can go shoot a case of ammo, but you need a plan. This is again the same point mentioned by others and stressed a lot. 100 plannedrounds is better than a case of shooting.

Another thing that wasn't stressed the whole time, but should be obvious is that people should try their best to take a class. I think I benefited greatly from the past regional group work, but all the pieces came together in my first class. (I know this sounds like a sales pitch, but it is the truth)

You were one of the better shooters in the house. Your main issue is running that pistol like a SMG. I was unaware that they could go that fast! You changed hands well and for the most part, made good hits on the targets.

Position SUL is a good one to be in when you have people around (that are none threats) like me. I am NOT a fan of low ready in a room clearing environment.

Jay and I take GREAT PRIDE in hearing that you learned something from the regional training we have provided and then applied it in Ken's pistol class. That's what this is all about (mission accomplished).



C4

orionz06
09-28-10, 09:49
Jay and I take GREAT PRIDE in hearing that you learned something from the regional training we have provided and then applied it in Ken's pistol class. That's what this is all about (mission accomplished).



C4

Lets just see if LAV makes fun of me in November now...

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 09:52
My experience in the shoot house was eye opening to say the least. It was surprising to see how easy it is to record low-quality hits and even throw shots entirely from only a few feet away when the pressure was on.

One of my many lessons learned was not to take the fundamentals for granted. If youíre screwing up at the square range your mistakes will be multiplied substantially in the shoot house. Thanks to Sundayís instruction I have a list of items I need to work on, and itís longer than I would like to admit.

Thank you Grant and Sgt. Watson for sharing your insight and expertise with us. I look forward to improving as a shooter and learning more from each of you in the future.


Good point about being fundamentally sound. Under stress we witnessed:

1. Poor malfunction clearing.
2. Poor Tactical Reloads.
3. Poor Emergency Reloads.
4. Poor Accuracy.
5. Poor decision making.

If one is NOT a good shooter (meaning fundamentally sound and can routinely put a round where they aim), then they will fall apart in a shoot house (as there is just too much for the brain to remember/do).


C4

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 10:07
Lets just see if LAV makes fun of me in November now...

Well, he makes fun of me, so I am sure you will not be spared. :no:



C4

Stonebridge
09-28-10, 10:56
That pic of me in the kitchen entry is tough to look at. Having sent one round toward the chick with the revolver that went between her and the guy, I've moved on to the next target and am happily blasting away with an armed aggressor at my back. *sigh*

Lesson learned: shoot, assess my hits, shoot again as necessary.

556mp
09-28-10, 11:11
Awesome pictures and video.

Glad to see it went well!
Hope you put on more training events like this.

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 11:26
Awesome pictures and video.

Glad to see it went well!
Hope you put on more training events like this.

There are and will be more options for you.

Here is a Home Defense course with Ken Hackathorn in October: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62946

In 2011, we will be doing 1 day and 2 day HD courses: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62879


C4

556mp
09-28-10, 11:39
Thanks for the information Grant.
I'm going to try like hell to make one of them.

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 12:55
Thanks for the information Grant.
I'm going to try like hell to make one of them.

We have a couple open slots in the Hackathorn class so let me know.



C4

mkemmerl
09-28-10, 13:00
I'm going to try like hell to make one of them.

It is absolutely worth it. I know I'm going to revisit this as soon as I am able. After this AAR and the word-of-mouth sure to happen, I think there will be long lines when the next is announced.

Regarding my Glock malfunctions; I pulled everything apart this morning. Turns out you need to clean these things. Who knew? There was a couple years worth of crud binding up the extractor.

Another take away for me is ; standing in a doorway in clear view of the bad guy to clear a jam is a bad idea. But better to be embarrassed than interred I suppose...

Complication
09-28-10, 14:50
I'll only add a few observations (I typed up 11 pages of notes and observations for my own future reference):

1) People took it very seriously. It would have been easy to walk into the house saying, "Okay, no worries, I'm just shooting paper." And I think that really speaks to the caliber of guys we had come out that people were sweating and shaking. People were cussing themselves out when they realized they were reloading in terrible locations and getting seriously freaked out and amped up even though none of the targets shot back. And without that it would have been easy to miss a lot of the lessons which we all felt were "hard learned" (even though this wasn't even force-on-force training let alone the real deal!). I think it was a terrific learning experience for myself that the first time through I was so charged up. Without that I would never have recognized the critical need to calm down, slow down, and take a few deep breaths from time to time.

2) Watching people negotiate doorways and deal with the door that wouldn't open all the way made me realize that a great deal of this training is simply having seen a problem or obstacle before. Walking up to the dual open doors I had no clue how best to handle it and knew only that my best idea was an awful one. I actually turned around to Grant and asked, "Any advice?" But now that I've done it wrong and seen how best to do it, I'll never make that mistake again. Similarly, the door that wouldn't quite open all the way flustered me the first time and I made sub-optimal entry into the room. But when Grant suggested a better method, I had no problem the second time through. I think there's great value in throwing problems in our faces, watching is cluster-**** our way through them, and saying "well, maybe this would have been better." Whether negotiating a door or a particular obstacle, seeing it even once feels like it enhanced tenfold my ability to problem solve similar situations in the future.

3) I always thought that scene in Men In Black where everyone shoots the alien targets but Will Smith shoots the little girl was unfairly ragging on the skills of our armed forces. But after talking to Ben and after seeing my own failings at target discrimination, it's so ungodly easy to pop the wrong people, whether its because one's a petite white chick (with a gun) and the other is a big black dude (without a gun) or because you saw the gun and not the badge. Imagine how hard it is for people who never have this sort of training despite strapping on a gun every day when they go to work. I think that's a critical lesson to take out into the world from two perspectives:
a) you need to be really careful who you decide to shoot
b) you need to be really careful whenever your gun is out that another CCW or the first cop on the scene doesn't burst your mellon just because your gun is still out.

4) A lot of people forgot the fourth rule of gun safety. I accidentally killed a few kids in the school hallway with a few stray rounds and I saw more than a few bullet holes in the patrons of that jewelry store. I'd like to think in real life that if a masked man with a gun (pointed at the ground no less) ran out of a jewelry store with huge glass windows I'd wait for a clear shot or at least take a lot more time aiming. But I don't think a single one of us hesitated to light that fool up. Grant harped on us (rightfully so) for every stray round we let loose but I think we all need to be harder on ourselves when it comes to accuracy, ESPECIALLY when the photo we're staring at has innocents crowding the target's background.

I think it has been, so far, the best shooting experience I've ever had. Sadly it leaves me sitting here hungering for more. But I think it's a great idea as a stepping stone for more advanced classes. I think I would have completely come apart at the seams had it not been for my previous experience with the M4C spring shoot and the summer classes that Grant and others have been offering.

I think you can only truly recognize how valuable training is when you go out, get some, and have a handful of "oh shit, I suck at this" moments. And I know I had my fair share this weekend.

Thanks again to Grant and Ben.

6933
09-28-10, 15:34
Humbling. Lots of work to do. This type of class puts things in a new light. Didn't shoot as well as I'd like, but if one can't bring it when necessary, it's time to regroup and rethink. Going to put in much, much more range time incorporating lessons learned.

The basics, the basics, the basics. Like I've heard at TS classes, and apparently didn't learn well enough: There is no such thing as advanced shooting skills, only flawless execution of the fundamentals under stress.

Plan on shooting better at the next shoot house. Can't wait.

Wife is already tired of me pieing corners and working the doors.

1911pro
09-28-10, 16:45
Good point about being fundamentally sound. Under stress we witnessed:

1. Poor malfunction clearing.
2. Poor Tactical Reloads.
3. Poor Emergency Reloads.
4. Poor Accuracy.
5. Poor decision making.

If one is NOT a good shooter (meaning fundamentally sound and can routinely put a round where they aim), then they will fall apart in a shoot house (as there is just too much for the brain to remember/do).


C4

Yes. It was way easy to get overloaded. I relearned this on the square range. I did not shoot half bad slow fire relaxed no timer. Once we started doing figure eights it was not so good for me. Add in the shoot house rush and things got worse in the accuracy dept. It really did make you think how fast you can go thru 17rds and be non effective. Second time thru the house I had made my mind up that I was going to get hits on target and have enough ammo in the gun. Did both of these things,but killed alot of good guys( we got tricked :D) and did my reload in the hall and dropped the half full mag (stupid:rolleyes:). Brain took hold of a couple of things and lost others. Like anything new with practice I believe it will eventually come together better. Hopefully we can do some moving and shooting at Tusco. Even with all the stress it was a super fun time. Thanks again for doing this class.

Leonidas
09-28-10, 21:45
Anyone else having dreams about the shoothouse?

Complication
09-28-10, 21:49
Not yet, but I watched a cop movie this evening and cringed every time they entered a room incorrectly or did something which was tactically retarded.

C4IGrant
09-28-10, 21:57
Anyone else having dreams about the shoothouse?

Doors were what got me for weeks after my first class. I opened them and looked for something to shoot. :D


C4

AR-15Tom
09-29-10, 08:09
Anyone else having dreams about the shoothouse?

I did the first couple nights. But last night the shoot house was my home and I had to clear additional obstacles like closets, navigating the stairs to the second floor and to the basement, checking behind furniture and underneath beds, not tripping over toys, etc.

1911pro
09-29-10, 08:38
Anyone else having dreams about the shoothouse?

No dreams for me,but I think my wife had nightmares after I scared her with one of the bad guy targets. Waited around a corner with it. It was the guy in the overalls from the kitchen. Scared the hell out of her,

Complication
09-29-10, 18:07
Food for thought:
I ran across this link on Soldier Systems today. After even a few minutes in the shoot-house, this really emphasizes some of the critical differences between gun games and some (most?) real-world scenarios.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Rdo6tHIGo

rob_s
09-29-10, 19:23
Food for thought:
I ran across this link on Soldier Systems today. After even a few minutes in the shoot-house, this really emphasizes some of the critical differences between gun games and some (most?) real-world scenarios.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Rdo6tHIGo

Do you think, provided that shooter has received other training, that this is how he would shoot in a real world situation?

Patrick Aherne
09-29-10, 20:14
Lets just see if LAV makes fun of me in November now...

If the LAV doesn't make fun of you, you just wasted your training dollars. THE LAV's biting wit and acerbic commentary keep me smiling fond memories from the last class I took from him in 2008. You know you've done something special and horrible when the LAV yells, "What the ..."

In a non-gay way, it's hard not to love the LAV.

* Note: Besides Charles Barkley, the LAV is the only person I refer to, or who is allowed to refer to himself in the third person while in my presence.:haha:

Stonebridge
09-29-10, 22:02
Doors were what got me for weeks after my first class. I opened them and looked for something to shoot. :D


C4


+1. Partially-opened doors give me a nervous twitch now. And we didn't even get to touch on stair-work yet. I'm looking at my switchback stairs with exposed balcony like, "what was I thinking when I bought this place?! It's a deathtrap!"

-'b

Complication
09-29-10, 22:06
It's a deathtrap!"
No, it's a first-class shoothouse training facility! Just don't let the wife catch you doing a walk-through. Somehow I think "But honey, the gun's empty" won't fly.

500grains
09-30-10, 17:04
I really like the photos of the shoot house. Looks like a lot of thought went into it.