View Full Version : upper tier ar
what constitutes an upper tier ar platform?
Read The Chart (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642)
This is M4C's official "new to the Ar platform" thread with a lot of quality info. Do some reading.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60901
The short answer is adherence to the TDP specification, and not cutting corners on quality products/manufacturing methods; coupled with excellent in house quality control. That, in a nut shell, constitutes a top tier AR platform. (Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt, Noveske, LMT)
glockshooter
09-30-10, 13:30
I dont think the "chart" is the answer to everything. The chart is nothing more than the list of mil specs for the M4 carbine as listed in the TDP. There are probably more people on this forum that have and use ARs that dont match up to the chart well. They are often better. Most of the really high end ARs are not mil spec they excede the mil standard. Think Knight, Noveske, Larue, and LMT. They all make ARs that are considered top tier, but dont meet mil spec. Remember SS barrels, mid length gas systems, piston systems, light weight barrels are not mil spec. However they sure are widely used by a lot of people in the know.
I think the answer to what makes a good M4 spec'd AR is to look at the chart for reference. With the understanding that is not the only correct answer. If I had a mid length SS barreled Noveske, BCM, or Larue would I have a mil spec AR? No, I would have one that is better.
Matt
I dont think the "chart" is the answer to everything. The chart is nothing more than the list of mil specs for the M4 carbine as listed in the TDP. There are probably more people on this forum that have and use ARs that dont match up to the chart well. They are often better. Most of the really high end ARs are not mil spec they excede the mil standard. Think Knight, Noveske, Larue, and LMT. They all make ARs that are considered top tier, but dont meet mil spec. Remember SS barrels, mid length gas systems, piston systems, light weight barrels are not mil spec. However they sure are widely used by a lot of people in the know.
I think the answer to what makes a good M4 spec'd AR is to look at the chart for reference. With the understanding that is not the only correct answer. If I had a mid length SS barreled Noveske, BCM, or Larue would I have a mil spec AR? No, I would have one that is better.
Matt
=========================
The OP was asking "what constitutes an upper tier ar platform?" and the Chart gives a good basic explanation of "what constitutes an upper tier ar platform?"
True the Chart is for an M4 but if I want a mid-length, I still want the "good" components and such that are listed in the Chart because they "constitue an upper tier AR platform". Plus the Chart lists 15+ additional references to get even more info and a better understanding.
I think someone that really wants to learn "what constitutes an upper tier AR platform", the Chart will educate him enough that he can search and learn more on his own. I don't think the Chart was intended to be a single reference resource of info and the OP (or anyone else) should find and use all of the "good" information he can before making a decision.
The Chart is just a compilations of "facts" and what those facts mean. What more could a serious beginning "AR student" want to get started?
Thanks again, Rob_S.
.
Think Knight, Noveske, Larue, and LMT. They all make ARs that are considered top tier, but dont meet mil spec.
There's a difference between not meeting and being equal and/or surpassing. The top-tier AR's meet or surpass mil-spec where applicable. For example, Noveske and Centurion CL'd barrels are manufactured according to the TDP for M249 machine gun barrels. Mil-spec for an M4? No. Built better than standard M4 barrels? Yes.
MrMilspecer
09-30-10, 15:50
Not trying to pick a fight here but dont you think the list is subject to opinion ? I had the same delima when ording RRA elite opp.2 . Am I making the right choice ? It will be here in a week I could still cancel my order but I doubt I would .
RRA elite operator2 w/ 2 mags, front sight, choice of rear sight, shipping, background check, $989. total
BCM mid 16 mod 2 $ 1299 + $35 shipping + $10 background check $1344 total
$ 355.00 difference
I have been wanting an AR for years and have leaned towards rra since the beginning, why ? Ill try to explain my pov
milspec is not my top consern or I would have bought a COLT. (will have one someday just not for the first one)
Accuracy is important to me and rra guarantees 1moa or less on this rifle (sandrats be warned)
Trigger love a good trigger, heard many good things about rra for years
Reputation ( it seems the only people that knock RRA are the ones that dont own them) Ive read hundreds of good comments from happy owners and mags.
DEA beat the heck out of these during testing http://http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/gm_oct04.pdf Or did they cheat and use milspec ??
Mark and Chuck Larson, mark former head armorer at springfield , were in partners with Les Baer in 93, these guys dont just assemble parts they can design complete new weapons.
RRA has a BBB rating of A+
My other .223 have 1/9 twist also works for me
I like the looks of the rr more, love the front rail, ergo grips, stock ect.....
Closest dealer is authorized seller, work with guy that owns one and loves his
Have read they have great customer service.
Wanted my first AR from a name I know and trust.
I have seen the list and I know about the barrel, pins , staking , bcg, buffer tube, ect..... Neither of my 1911s are milspec. I chose Kimber for their Match Barrel and Trigger and love it.
I am not in the military or pretend to be , dont need something capable of sustained full auto fire with gernade launcher mount thats built to milspec standards.
I get the point about the highest quality standards on your bcm , colts , daniel def. ect... and thats awsome,
Like I said not trying to pick a fight just saying the reason I ordered a low list RRA ..... Please be gentile im new..
Trigger love a good trigger, heard many good things about rra for years
So you know they routinely crap out in about 3,000 rounds? And are the worst of the two-stage commercial triggers you can get?
Reputation ( it seems the only people that knock RRA are the ones that dont own them) Ive read hundreds of good comments from happy owners and mags.
DEA beat the heck out of these during testing http://http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/gm_oct04.pdf Or did they cheat and use milspec ??
Yep. They cheated. RRA built CUSTOM, NON-COMMERCIAL weapons for the DEA. This has been hashed to death already. Your weapon will be nowhere near the quality of the DEA weapons. And as it turned out, the DEA ended up running into issues later on and later regretted their choice.
Mark and Chuck Larson, mark former head armorer at springfield , were in partners with Les Baer in 93, these guys dont just assemble parts they can design complete new weapons.
A gun can only be as good as the parts put into not; who put it together doesn't affect the quality of the parts themselves. Bluntly, RRA uses crap. They even used to cut the feed ramps into their rifles with a dremel tool, and then color it black with sharpies.
RRA has a BBB rating of A+
So? This means you simply get a nice person on the phone when you call about your broken rifle, compared to a mean person. In no way does it make your weapon more reliable.
My other .223 have 1/9 twist also works for me
If 1/9 works for you, then so be it. Try shooting 77gr ammo out of your barrel with a suppressor attached and see how long it takes before it fails to stabilize a round and causes a baffle strike.
Have read they have great customer service.
Great customer service does not equal a good product. RRA commonly have issues.
Not trying to pick a fight here but dont you think the list is subject to opinion ? I had the same delima when ording RRA elite opp.2 . Am I making the right choice ? It will be here in a week I could still cancel my order but I doubt I would .
RRA elite operator2 w/ 2 mags, front sight, choice of rear sight, shipping, background check, $989. total
BCM mid 16 mod 2 $ 1299 + $35 shipping + $10 background check $1344 total
$ 355.00 difference
I have been wanting an AR for years and have leaned towards rra since the beginning, why ? Ill try to explain my pov
milspec is not my top consern or I would have bought a COLT. (will have one someday just not for the first one)
Accuracy is important to me and rra guarantees 1moa or less on this rifle (sandrats be warned)
Trigger love a good trigger, heard many good things about rra for years
Reputation ( it seems the only people that knock RRA are the ones that dont own them) Ive read hundreds of good comments from happy owners and mags.
DEA beat the heck out of these during testing http://http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/gm_oct04.pdf Or did they cheat and use milspec ??
Mark and Chuck Larson, mark former head armorer at springfield , were in partners with Les Baer in 93, these guys dont just assemble parts they can design complete new weapons.
RRA has a BBB rating of A+
My other .223 have 1/9 twist also works for me
I like the looks of the rr more, love the front rail, ergo grips, stock ect.....
Closest dealer is authorized seller, work with guy that owns one and loves his
Have read they have great customer service.
Wanted my first AR from a name I know and trust.
I have seen the list and I know about the barrel, pins , staking , bcg, buffer tube, ect..... Neither of my 1911s are milspec. I chose Kimber for their Match Barrel and Trigger and love it.
I am not in the military or pretend to be , dont need something capable of sustained full auto fire with gernade launcher mount thats built to milspec standards.
I get the point about the highest quality standards on your bcm , colts , daniel def. ect... and thats awsome,
Like I said not trying to pick a fight just saying the reason I ordered a low list RRA ..... Please be gentile im new..
I understand what you are saying. Buying a lower tier AR for plinking or hunting is different than buying one for fighting.
Most guys on this forum are of the latter type. Many are overseas now fighting with these rifles.
I have a Bushmaster as my duty patrol rifle. It has seen several thousand rounds through and has fed and fired reliably. BUT.... I have had the trigger assy break and my safety bind up.
My dept went with Bushmaster because Colt was backordered and had to get rifle in a hurry because of political pressure (David Spade donated the cash).
Almost all of the Bushmasters they bought have had problems as we run them pretty hard in training. Since that purchase, they have gone back to Colts as the old Hbars and the new 6920's havent had these problems.
Sometimes selling a good AR is harder than selling a new religion. :p
My thought is that an AR or any other similar weapon (AK47, FN FAL, etc..) should be considered a fighting weapon first. If you want to punch paper or rats that's great too.
I would be more concerned about the reliability of the weapon before the accuracy.
As for the whole "DEA" chose it so it must be good, I don't know if I buy that argument. For one, bean counters aften times drive the final decision. Second, there are still alot of uneducated people out there when it comes to the AR platform and finally for all we know RRA made these weapons to specific criteria for the DEA.
MrMilspecer
09-30-10, 16:31
So you know they routinely crap out in about 3,000 rounds? And are the worst of the two-stage commercial triggers you can get?
Yep. They cheated. RRA built CUSTOM, NON-COMMERCIAL weapons for the DEA. This has been hashed to death already. Your weapon will be nowhere near the quality of the DEA weapons. And as it turned out, the DEA ended up running into issues later on and later regretted their choice.
A gun can only be as good as the parts put into not; who put it together doesn't affect the quality of the parts themselves. Bluntly, RRA uses crap. They even used to cut the feed ramps into their rifles with a dremel tool, and then color it black with sharpies.
So? This means you simply get a nice person on the phone when you call about your broken rifle, compared to a mean person. In no way does it make your weapon more reliable.
If 1/9 works for you, then so be it. Try shooting 77gr ammo out of your barrel with a suppressor attached and see how long it takes before it fails to stabilize a round and causes a baffle strike.
Great customer service does not equal a good product. RRA commonly have issues.
milspec is not my top consern or I would have bought a COLT. (will have one someday just not for the first one)
You are the first to enlighten me with all these problems with their ARs worst triggers, crap parts, cheaters, wow !!! like I said your the first. An extra $350 in spare parts probably wouldnot improve it at all either.
This is M4C's official "new to the Ar platform" thread with a lot of quality info. Do some reading.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60901
The short answer is adherence to the TDP specification, and not cutting corners on quality products/manufacturing methods; coupled with excellent in house quality control. That, in a nut shell, constitutes a top tier AR platform. (Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt, Noveske, LMT)
Those are the names I always see, and understandably so. Two I don't, are Wilson and Baer. Are their ARs good but overpriced compared to the others? Another reason they don't make top tier rankings? Considering what they do with 1911s, hard to imagine they would make poor quality ARs, but I'm not an AR expert by any means, but I rarely if ever see them mentioned, so I am curious.
jklaughrey
09-30-10, 16:40
Mr. Milspecer...? If you would have shopped around or just saved a few more dollars you could have had a Colt close to the price you paid for that ASS RAPING you talked yourself into of a rifle. I don't even think I can call it a rifle anymore. Rifles usually work when used, how about a hodgepodge of crap substandard parts, slapped together by E. Fudd, Bubba, and a cross-eyed chimp.
Do yourself a big favor change your handle, cuz milspec you are not. Or cancel that order quicker than Rpsie O running to the Krispy Kreme sale, and save and buy quality.
milspec is not my top consern or I would have bought a COLT. (will have one someday just not for the first one)
You are the first to enlighten me with all these problems with their ARs worst triggers, crap parts, cheaters, wow !!! like I said your the first. An extra $350 in spare parts probably wouldnot improve it at all either.
The thing is most AR shooters go to the range and shoot a hundred or so rounds through the gun then go home. Under these conditions most any make will be reliable. Because of this the lower grade rifles get reputations as being good reliable weapons.
But like I stated earlier, the people on this forum are not those people. people here view their rifles as fighting tools and therefor run them as such. Running through a couple day class rolling around in the dirt and shooting 1500 rounds shows the weaknesses of a rifle that would never be seen by Joe range shooter.
Like many on this board, I have been overseas and relied on this type of rifle, we had M16s, as a fighting tool. So I view the AR as a fighting rifle and when I see corners cut, whether or not that matters to a ground squirrel hunter or not, I distrust it.
MrMilspecer
09-30-10, 16:56
I respect the AR as a military weapon as i do those that protect us. But isnt the beauty of the stoner design thats its 2 seperate peices and easy to change ? Like a grown mans erector set? Cant you have several uppers and one lower and just switch things around the way you want. The rails accept optics of all needs....of course. I think it will be more fun than customizing 10/22s. When it arrives I will hold it with pride. It wont know its not like the other kids...on the list.
jklaughrey
09-30-10, 16:57
Your delusional...I am out of here!
deleted, there is no point in this one
For reliability (to include durability) consult the chart. Read the list of features or whatever Rob calls it, that comprises the what's and why's of the military specifications.
For pure precision concerns, consult this thread https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=63446
There are variations on themes, but some things cannot be changed for quality ARs, i.e. properly made/hardened/finished parts and proper assembly. Precision may negatively affect reliability, for example if a match chamber does not allow for proper clearance of a NATO spec round causing excessive chamber pressures or poor extraction. Reliable ARs may not produce the 1/2" three shot groups due to the lack of free-floated barrel or the chrome lined barrels, but with proper application of lube they will run and run and run. Because manufacturers like RRA cannot balance accuracy (technically precision ;)) with durability and reliability, quality ARs that walk that fine line such as Noveskes and Centurion uppers command the premium price, and are hailed to be among the best.
This is ending up just like the other "as good as" threads or "why isn't my AR top tier?". So it's locked.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.