View Full Version : So who else here is an accuracy nut with their AR?
Seems that sometimes we're out of place on the web if we don't compete but we try for those tight target groups at the range. What AR do you shoot? I prefer heavy weight bullets with a faster twist barrel myself.
ewells2420
09-30-10, 14:02
Well once I get mine together I plan to be as accurate as possible. When I was in the Army I never really got a lot of range time because the unit I was in. Ive always loved going to the range though and cant wait to get back into it.
I wear glasses so I dont know if I can ever be really accurate but im going to try. although with my DTi barrel I am skeptical on how accurate it will be. But im sure it will be more accurate than I will be for a while.
MrMilspecer
09-30-10, 14:24
I shoot flys sometimes because they bother me http://https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6186&stc=1&d=1285875823
ForTehNguyen
09-30-10, 14:25
even on non magnified optics or irons, if the shots are off even by .5" at 50 yards, I still wanna fix it.
I've been focused on a primarily precision with my AR(s). I just redid my latest build and have yet to take it to the range, so I can't accurately report the group sizes on it at this time.
My current configuration is:
- Noveske lower w/ the latest Geissele SSA trigger and Magpul UBR
- Noveske 16" Recon SS upper, 1/7" twist
- Nightforce 2.5-10x24 mil/mil zero-stop in a NF Unimount
My last setup similar to this (which was a stock Noveske Recon, different rifle) did about 1.5" @ 150yds (or slightly under 1 MOA) with iron sights. I've since made many upgrades to the point the only thing similar between the two is the fact both rifles were Noveske Recons.
I've had decent luck with Wolf GOLD (not the regular steel crap) 75gr BTJHP rounds. They're match-grade rounds manufactured by Prvi Partizan for Wolf; they're even stamped Prvi, they're simply boxed in a Wolf container. A guy at a local shop turned me on to them and, at $7.50 for a box of 20, they group VERY well. I'll post some range reports when I get a chance to take it out.
Here's an online link to the ammunition, if anyone's interested (not the same place I purchase it from):
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/products/223--5.56x45-Ammo-75gr-Hollow-Point-Boat-Tail-Match-Wolf-Gold-20-Round-Box.html
My BCM 16" Middy is more accurate than I am.
I'm good with it. :D
I shoot flys sometimes because they bother me http://https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6186&stc=1&d=1285875823
Ummmm.....don't think I can do that. But do I qualify if I blow-up water balloons at 100 yards? LOL
Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company. So far my frustration is hearing a lot of guys out there say that they are using factory ammo and getting sub 1" groups. I have to hand load the heck out of my cartridges to do that. Maybe it's time I invest in a custom barrel.
Just remember you can measure the accuracy of a rifle at 100yards, but you measure the accuracy of a shooter at 500yards.
Cameron
I never was until I got to shoot my Dad's new Colt Match A2. Busting eggs at 200 yds with open sights if a very cool thing.:)
:D
Definitely me
My goal is to master irons out to 600yds (highpower competition)
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s7/v7/p34502222.jpg
My RRA bull upper, with its stainless steel barrel did this 5-shot group at 100 yards on my last range trip:
http://mt3chn1k.com/1/ar/submoa-100y.png
Then I have a different upper with plastic handguards that I shoot Brown Bear from, and that is lucky if it fits them in a 3" group.
Next is a BCM freefloated lightweight barrel. I'll probably feed it a mix of ammo.
MrMilspecer
09-30-10, 22:28
My RRA bull upper, with its stainless steel barrel did this 5-shot group at 100 yards on my last range trip:
http://mt3chn1k.com/1/ar/submoa-100y.png
Then I have a different upper with plastic handguards that I shoot Brown Bear from, and that is lucky if it fits them in a 3" group.
Next is a BCM freefloated lightweight barrel. I'll probably feed it a mix of ammo.
Nice group.
Nice group.
Thanks!
Just remember you can measure the accuracy of a rifle at 100yards, but you measure the accuracy of a shooter at 500yards.
Cameron
That's why I just joined a range that goes to 600.
:D
Definitely me
My goal is to master irons out to 600yds (highpower competition)
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s7/v7/p34502222.jpg
I've got one of those RRA NM's myself....but in the A4 configuration. But what a pretty way to show it off like that. I think I'll toss my wife's vase with those retarded artificial flowers right out the window and put my RRA there on the dining room table instead! Nothing brightens up a room like a dark beautiful showpiece like that .....don't you think!
BTW.....email me and let me know your address just in case I need a warm comfortable basement to stay should the wife toss me outside with those flowers.
Mtech,
That is EXACTLY the kind of 5 shot group I keep trying for. I'm wanting to build me an AR rifle that can do sub 3/4" consistantly. I will be ripping apart two Ar rifles in an attempt to do it. (a 223 Ar and 308 Ar) Right now, my best is the RRA NM which usually puts 3 or 4 shots in 5/8" to 3/4" with one or two shots that seem to always open the group to 1" .
What kind of handload technique do you do? Do you only neck size the fired brass?....use a concentricity gage, weigh bullets, place the bullet out against the lands?....???
Mtech,
That is EXACTLY the kind of 5 shot group I keep trying for. I'm wanting to build me an AR rifle that can do sub 3/4" consistantly. I will be ripping apart two Ar rifles in an attempt to do it. (a 223 Ar and 308 Ar) Right now, my best is the RRA NM which usually puts 3 or 4 shots in 5/8" to 3/4" with one or two shots that seem to always open the group to 1" .
What kind of handload technique do you do? Do you only neck size the fired brass?....use a concentricity gage, weigh bullets, place the bullet out against the lands?....???
Handloads? I wish I had the time for that.
That's Black Hills Gold with the 69gr Sierra MatchKing bullet...
I've got one of those RRA NM's myself....but in the A4 configuration. But what a pretty way to show it off like that. I think I'll toss my wife's vase with those retarded artificial flowers right out the window and put my RRA there on the dining room table instead! Nothing brightens up a room like a dark beautiful showpiece like that .....don't you think!
BTW.....email me and let me know your address just in case I need a warm comfortable basement to stay should the wife toss me outside with those flowers.
Absolutely! Use two for crossed rifles :D
Come on down to Miami :D
evolixsurf
09-30-10, 23:08
absolutely. my first ar was(is) a RRA 20" predator pursuit. it LOVES 68gr black hills white box. I got a mueller tactical scope(so cheap and clear and lifetime warranty) and its a fuggin tack driver. Love it but have built other guns and cant stop shopping for parts!
I shoot flys sometimes because they bother me http://https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6186&stc=1&d=1285875823
======================
Wow! What did you do that with?
.
======================
Wow! What did you do that with?
.
The only gun I own and have been able to confidently shoot a fly with is a Beeman FWB 65. But, I admit, that's only from about 8 feet away. :D
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/hobbyguy/K100_1327.jpg
Handloads? I wish I had the time for that.
That's Black Hills Gold with the 69gr Sierra MatchKing bullet...
That's why I can't get my targets to group like yours. I'm too busy spending 2 hours to load 12 rounds. :D
But seriously....Geees........Factory ammo you say?......... Now I know for sure I've got to try a new barrel. I have no problem doing groups like yours and tighter with my bolt actions, but my AR's have been nothing but frustraton for me.
apetrulis01
10-01-10, 00:51
My ARs are work ARs (and they go to work with me / LEO). I do not need a rifle that shoots .25 inch groups at a hundred yards. I need a rifle that will work everytime I pull the trigger, work if it has been dropped, and shoot a 2" group or smaller at 100 yards. That is well within the size of a head.
My three gun rifle is the same, I will be running and gunning and not being on a rest, so 2" or smaller groups for me.
Adam
That's why I can't get my targets to group like yours. I'm too busy spending 2 hours to load 12 rounds. :D
But seriously....Geees........Factory ammo you say?......... Now I know for sure I've got to try a new barrel. I have no problem doing groups like yours and tighter with my bolt actions, but my AR's have been nothing but frustraton for me.
I wish I had the time and space to handload. Normally I shoot the Prvi 75 grain ammo, but figured I'd give the BHG stuff a try, and suffice to say, I'm VERY happy with the results.
What barrel are you shooting from? That is from a Wilson air gauged stainless 20" bull barrel, no chrome lining, with a free-float tube. It's mostly stock Rock River. It also uses the RRA 2-stage trigger. There may be more durable triggers, and I have one sitting ready to replace this one if it ever fails.
My ARs are work ARs (and they go to work with me / LEO). I do not need a rifle that shoots .25 inch groups at a hundred yards. I need a rifle that will work everytime I pull the trigger, work if it has been dropped, and shoot a 2" group or smaller at 100 yards. That is well within the size of a head.
My three gun rifle is the same, I will be running and gunning and not being on a rest, so 2" or smaller groups for me.
Adam
This is why you get another upper, with a stainless bull barrel. So that your 3-gun and patrol rifles aren't compromised. I will only see these groups from a bench using that ungainly upper, but it reallllly works well for that.
MrMilspecer
10-01-10, 07:29
======================
Wow! What did you do that with?
.
That was done with a cz452 american .22 rimfire. Sorry not trying to cheat. Thought the post said what do you like to shoot (at) . I will post some pics here in a few weeks when my rra arives. Im going to make the rifle live up to its accuracy gurantee cant wait. Small groups rule.
MrMilspecer
10-01-10, 08:34
Its nice to see a post about actual shooting . Theres two much talk about the pile of money people spend on the latest and greatest and mines better than yours. Some guys buy the best (milspec or better) that money can buy name their equipment 20x each post and rag on everyone else for thier low list ARs and never talk about the fun they have shooting.....Well I like to read about people actually using their equipment. Nice post
I like to see nice groups, but really as long as my AR is "M.O.H." = minute of hog, i'm pretty happy.
I love the look of a nice SPR though....might have to build one...
Its nice to see a post about actual shooting . Theres two much talk about the pile of money people spend on the latest and greatest and mines better than yours. Some guys buy the best (milspec or better) that money can buy name their equipment 20x each post and rag on everyone else for thier low list ARs and never talk about the fun they have shooting.....Well I like to read about people actually using their equipment. Nice post
Keep making posts like this and you won't last long here at all; the last thread you posted in was locked due to you regurgitating similar crap. No one here is ragging anyone because their AR is better than someone else's. What we DO have here is a community that will tell you "Yes, your AR is good to go" or "No, it's not good to go."
We're not arfcom and we don't give two craps about how proud someone is of their $500 Olympic Arms special, nor do we change our opinion on what constitutes a reliable weapon when we see pictures of small groups or a candid photo of you holding your pride and joy. If your rifle is good, we'll tell you. If it isn't, we'll also tell you.
Sensitive people getting their feelings hurt because no one congratulated them for purposely buying a sub-par rifle does not qualify as ragging or bragging.
Now back on topic...
MrMilspecer
10-01-10, 10:07
Keep making posts like this and you won't last long here at all; the last thread you posted in was locked due to you regurgitating similar crap. No one here is ragging anyone because their AR is better than someone else's. What we DO have here is a community that will tell you "Yes, your AR is good to go" or "No, it's not good to go."
We're not arfcom and we don't give two craps about how proud someone is of their $500 Olympic Arms special, nor do we change our opinion on what constitutes a reliable weapon when we see pictures of small groups or a candid photo of you holding your pride and joy. If your rifle is good, we'll tell you. If it isn't, we'll also tell you.
Sensitive people getting their feelings hurt because no one congratulated them for purposely buying a sub-par rifle does not qualify as ragging or bragging.
Now back on topic...
If your rifle is good we'll tell you !!! What a joke ! All knowing all judging. What a load Mr.noveske, noveske,noveske here i'll help you out..
If your rifle is good we'll tell you !!! What a joke ! All knowing all judging. What a load Mr.noveske, noveske,noveske here i'll help you out..
If you don't want to hear other's opinions of your rifle, perhaps you shouldn't post it for all the world to see like an insecure 5 year old who needs the approval of others. Funny, isn't it? It's all fun and games for you to tell everyone how great your rifle is, but if anyone disagrees, it's elitist?
The playground's the other way, just in case you walked in here by accident.
MrMilspecer
10-01-10, 10:51
If you don't want to hear other's opinions of your rifle, perhaps you shouldn't post it for all the world to see like an insecure 5 year old who needs the approval of others. Funny, isn't it? It's all fun and games for you to tell everyone how great your rifle is, but if anyone disagrees, it's elitist?
The playground's the other way, just in case you walked in here by accident.
I never asked your opinion. Just stated I liked the thread good shooting with what you got. I wont reply with childish comments. Its pretty clear whos seeking (buying) approval.
Not huge on ragged hole accuracy with the AR but love shooting tight groups with the 10/22. Do love the shot of the busted fly though
Oh and ibtl
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e105/falcs00/ForumPics/Inb4lock.gif
ewells2420
10-01-10, 14:49
Its nice to see a post about actual shooting . Theres two much talk about the pile of money people spend on the latest and greatest and mines better than yours. Some guys buy the best (milspec or better) that money can buy name their equipment 20x each post and rag on everyone else for thier low list ARs and never talk about the fun they have shooting.....Well I like to read about people actually using their equipment. Nice post
Keep making posts like this and you won't last long here at all; the last thread you posted in was locked due to you regurgitating similar crap. No one here is ragging anyone because their AR is better than someone else's. What we DO have here is a community that will tell you "Yes, your AR is good to go" or "No, it's not good to go."
We're not arfcom and we don't give two craps about how proud someone is of their $500 Olympic Arms special, nor do we change our opinion on what constitutes a reliable weapon when we see pictures of small groups or a candid photo of you holding your pride and joy. If your rifle is good, we'll tell you. If it isn't, we'll also tell you.
Sensitive people getting their feelings hurt because no one congratulated them for purposely buying a sub-par rifle does not qualify as ragging or bragging.
Now back on topic...
If your rifle is good we'll tell you !!! What a joke ! All knowing all judging. What a load Mr.noveske, noveske,noveske here i'll help you out..
If you don't want to hear other's opinions of your rifle, perhaps you shouldn't post it for all the world to see like an insecure 5 year old who needs the approval of others. Funny, isn't it? It's all fun and games for you to tell everyone how great your rifle is, but if anyone disagrees, it's elitist?
The playground's the other way, just in case you walked in here by accident.
Well for one I find it funny somone not even here for a year is telling someone else that just joined, "you wont last here long".
But anyway I just joined and right off the bat was treated very shitty over my decision to buy a brand not within the elites recomendations. And no its NOT just somoene telling me that they underperform (without proof other than hearsay) its outright being attacked.
Im sure I will get belittled for posting this. There is a HUGE difference between making recomendations and suggestions, and making someone feel like shit for making a purchase thats not considered 'top tier'. And it has nothing to do with being coddled, its called common curtosey and respect.
Im just calling it like I see it, and if I get banned for it **** it. But there are a lot of elitist assholes here. And if you are wondering why I am sticking around (so far) its because there IS a lot of good info here. But that doesnt excuse rude behavior.
But anyway I just joined and right off the bat was treated very shitty over my decision to buy a brand not within the elites recomendations. And no its NOT just somoene telling me that they underperform (without proof other than hearsay) its outright being attacked.
Im sure I will get belittled for posting this. There is a HUGE difference between making recomendations and suggestions, and making someone feel like shit for making a purchase thats not considered 'top tier'. And it has nothing to do with being coddled, its called common curtosey and respect.
I didn't try and track down the thread where someone treated you "shitty" but I'm sure that wasn't the intention. What has to be understood is that there are a great number of people on this forum (and I'm not claiming to be one of them) who put their lives on the line as .mil and leo who require and demand the utmost in reliability from their weapons. And I say weapon because they are viewed as tools and fighting carbines first and foremost. Yes while there is a picture thread, etc. looking cool and taking snazzy pictures is not the top priority. I feel folks do make recommendations on what is 'top tier' here but it's not done arbitrarily and not done solely on $ figures. Its based on 10's of thousands of rounds down range; based on seeing lower end carbines choke in high round count classes; based on the invaluable information of armorers who see the differences in the different brands taken from sample sizes of hundreds or thousands of rifles--not just one or two.
Most of the threads I see that newer members might view as hostile vs. respectful advice progress to that point and don't start out as malignant attacks. They start out as "just as good as threads" where knowledgeable people point out the differences and recommend something different/better. Sometimes (not always) in those threads the OP didn't come looking for information so much as validation of their purchase though and the threads quickly dissolve from there. People are very respectful here but then if people don't choose to heed the advice given by SME ect. and continue to be obtuse...well, it doesn't usually turn out well. Try and take the advice given if you're here to learn and remember there is no sense in getting butt hurt over someones post--it's just the internet after all :D
Just my $0.02
Now in an attempt to get this thread back on topic. For those of you shooting for top accuracy that don't handload; it seems that Black Hills is a popular choice. Is there a big accuracy difference between the factory new Black Hills and the re-manufactured?
Canonshooter
10-01-10, 15:33
Though I do not have the $$ resources to put as much into my AR as many on this site, I nonetheless appreciate their insight on what has worked for them and what has not. It hasn't cost me anything other than my time and extending a little respect for those who help me.
BTW, my lower still says "Bushmaster" on the side but it is certainly a much better piece of equipment now that I have taken the advice of those who freely give it here. Just leave your ego at the door and then read and learn.
I like to see nice groups, but really as long as my AR is "M.O.H." = minute of hog, i'm pretty happy.
I love the look of a nice SPR though....might have to build one...
This guy has it right, and is more in line with my thinking; Different strokes for different folks.
While I do know that I'm very anal about my target groups, as well as the fact that I might be categorized as one of those "elitest" snobs who enjoys name brand stuff, I also understand not everybody has the same interests or tastes. I took note that a couple of guys on this thread said that my kind of shooting doesn't interest them....and they proceeded to explain what they do enjoy. What's wrong with that? They didn't jump on my ass attacking my need for accuracy, nor were they being disrespectful, or hurtful to me. There was no name calling.
But man, talk about a drive-by ass jumping!! I won't mention names because it wasn't my butt being attacked nor was there actual blood running onto the sidwalk, but I don't know why this one guy had to take a general comment so personal and confront the other guy with a serious ass jumping like that.
I'll just write it up as bad blood between the two, and hope this kind of drive-by ass jumping doesn't happen again on a thread that I was otherwise enjoying.
MrMilspecer
10-01-10, 19:06
I didn't try and track down the thread where someone treated you "shitty" but I'm sure that wasn't the intention. What has to be understood is that there are a great number of people on this forum (and I'm not claiming to be one of them) who put their lives on the line as .mil and leo who require and demand the utmost in reliability from their weapons. And I say weapon because they are viewed as tools and fighting carbines first and foremost. Yes while there is a picture thread, etc. looking cool and taking snazzy pictures is not the top priority. I feel folks do make recommendations on what is 'top tier' here but it's not done arbitrarily and not done solely on $ figures. Its based on 10's of thousands of rounds down range; based on seeing lower end carbines choke in high round count classes; based on the invaluable information of armorers who see the differences in the different brands taken from sample sizes of hundreds or thousands of rifles--not just one or two.
Most of the threads I see that newer members might view as hostile vs. respectful advice progress to that point and don't start out as malignant attacks. They start out as "just as good as threads" where knowledgeable people point out the differences and recommend something different/better. Sometimes (not always) in those threads the OP didn't come looking for information so much as validation of their purchase though and the threads quickly dissolve from there. People are very respectful here but then if people don't choose to heed the advice given by SME ect. and continue to be obtuse...well, it doesn't usually turn out well. Try and take the advice given if you're here to learn and remember there is no sense in getting butt hurt over someones post--it's just the internet after all :D
Just my $0.02
Now in an attempt to get this thread back on topic. For those of you shooting for top accuracy that don't handload; it seems that Black Hills is a popular choice. Is there a big accuracy difference between the factory new Black Hills and the re-manufactured?
There is a way a man talks to another man and thats with respect. Having what you think is a top tier gun gives you no right to disrespect people.I think we all get the point about a milspec AR the best possible for COMBAT. You allow your crew to slam top armors like Les Baer, Mark Larson and then expect me to agree with everything are you kidding ? Honestly its just 1 asshole that wont quit and keeps making ignorant comments. Most have been great and explain thier point of view with respect. All I want to do is learn and enjoy other peoples posts. If you guys are firing 10s of thousands of rounds a year thats what i want to hear about.what ammo,where,what broke,what optics,weather condition.I like shooting and a barrel that shoots where i aim it. If this whole community is combat only then let people know dont treat them like shit.
If your rifle is good we'll tell you !!! What a joke ! All knowing all judging. What a load Mr.noveske, noveske,noveske here i'll help you out..
To draw John Noveske into this because of your own ignorance lowers you to a new level of contempt. I consider John a friend, but even if he weren't there is no reason for your comments. There are other boards more suited for you.
But anyway I just joined and right off the bat was treated very shitty over my decision to buy a brand not within the elites recomendations.
The objections to your choice were noted, in detail. Several times. Del-Ton has some issues that are widely known, whether you want to believe those issues exist, or not, does not make the folks telling you about them "elites".
You were treated pretty fairly from what I saw. Dragging your issues from another thread to this thread is unsat.
Also, I thought you were leaving?
To draw John Noveske into this because of your own ignorance lowers you to a new level of contempt. I consider John a friend, but even if he weren't there is no reason for your comments. There are other boards more suited for you.
Agreed. He's earned a temporary vacation. I suspect that will transition to a more permanent arrangement, unless he has a serious modification in his posting style and tone.
Well I tried to play mediator in this situation and obviously failed miserably so instead I'll just try and get the thread back on track again
Now in an attempt to get this thread back on topic. For those of you shooting for top accuracy that don't handload; it seems that Black Hills is a popular choice. Is there a big accuracy difference between the factory new Black Hills and the re-manufactured?
EDIT: Seems you slipped in there and handled the situation SHIVAN. I need to speed up my typing on my phone:)
Erratikmind
10-01-10, 22:04
Seems that sometimes we're out of place on the web if we don't compete but we try for those tight target groups at the range. What AR do you shoot? I prefer heavy weight bullets with a faster twist barrel myself.
Umm . . . Is it safe to come out, now? Not so much of an accuracy nut, but as an retired old guy, I like to keep things interesting for myself. This is my personal best 5 shot group with my newest rig at 100 yards. It helps to pass the time.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/andy2434/IMG_0509.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/andy2434/IMG_0786.jpg
That is amazing accuracy there - .223 is presume? I have yet to get any handloads done for the 5.56, but I know it will take some effort to get anywhere near dime size. What is your "new" rig?
Erratikmind
10-02-10, 04:43
That is amazing accuracy there - .223 is presume? I have yet to get any handloads done for the 5.56, but I know it will take some effort to get anywhere near dime size. What is your "new" rig?
Thank you for the kind words. However, I think that it was more a bit of good fortune than my own shooting skills.
Yes, it was Hornady 223 55gr. training ammo, which was recommended on these very boards. I shot this first of six groups, last Saturday. The other 5 groupings ranged from 3/4" to 2", which I was still pleased with.
My latest rig is configured with a 16" BCM BFH mid length upper receiver group. The lower is a Spikes fitted with a Geissele SSA trigger group and an UBR stock. To assist my trifocal wearing eyes, I use an EOTech XPS2-0 with a 3x magnifier.
These boards and the like have increased my shooting enjoyment. It is truly a wonder what I can learn from people, whom freely share good information on these boards.
Howdy all,
I'm new to the board, and have only been shooting my Bushmaster M4 for about a year now, but enjoy every minute I'm at the range.
Recently purchased the Nikon M223 2-8 Nikoplex reticle.
Shooting Winchester 5.56 55gr (white box) ammo at 100yds was able to get a nice grouping. (hope to improve)
The blue dot is just a bit bigger than dime.
Vance.
Umm . . . Is it safe to come out, now? Not so much of an accuracy nut, but as an retired old guy, I like to keep things interesting for myself. This is my personal best 5 shot group with my newest rig at 100 yards. It helps to pass the time.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/andy2434/IMG_0509.jpg
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/andy2434/IMG_0786.jpg
Haha....I'm laughing....because I return here 24 hours later to read your "Is it safe?" while realizing some guy I hardly knew just got banished to the cornfields like that jack-in-the box charachter out of a Twighlight Zone episode! LOL
yep....back on track with the thread topic..... That IS some fine shooting! And it just doesn't happen without some effort and skill; and certainly not with an AR.....as accurate bolt action groups come easier to me then does with an AR.
I finally today (Saturday) attained my first 1/2" 5 shot group after a whole lot of range visits and testing different loads. The problem has been trying to attain this kind of accuracy with magazine fitting rounds. I feel confident that this load will produce these groups again. and unlike some earlier attempts, this is more technique and load development instead of luck. Hallelujah! (it only took 2 years. LOL) I've formerly at best only accomplished 5 shot groups that were 3/4" - 1".
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/hobbyguy/RRA5shotgroup-halfinch.jpg
Vance W.
That's some pretty good shooting there too. Dang...maybe you guys have a natural knack for AR shooting.....and it's just not in me. You'd be amazed (or laugh) if you saw all the stuff I did to make the 12 hand loaded cartridges that I take with me to the range. (and the 3 hours I take to shoot 10 of those rounds in two 5 shot groups. LOL)
Canonshooter
10-03-10, 05:25
I plan on running some Hornady 75 BTHP Match through my new BCM 16" SS410 middy next weekend. Like the rest of you old geezers in this thread, I just need to get a scope mounted this week so I can see the target.
I plan on running some Hornady 75 BTHP Match through my new BCM 16" SS410 middy next weekend. Like the rest of you old geezers in this thread, I just need to get a scope mounted this week so I can see the target.
The 75gr bullets is probably at the upper limit of the 1-8 twist of your barrel. When seeking 3/4" groups or better in my 1-8 RRA NM barrel it seemed that 68-69gr bullets was the preferred weight. Of course, you may not be looking for such tight groups, and if the 75 grain bullets shoot 1" or so out of your barrel, that would be plenty good and nothng to scoff at.
Well I'm feeling like it may be obtainable to hit 1/2" now - thanks for the inspiration guys. I am stopping at 62 grain though as I'm only shooting a quality 1/9 tube. GREAT SHOOTING!!!!
rkwrichard
10-03-10, 17:17
Here is a group of 5 shots from earlier this year.. This is a 52 grain Sierra Match King. I have been lurking for a while but this topic really sparked my interest. I love to shoot my bull barreled AR's.. I shoot a 20 inch DPMS upper on a C3 lower with a RR NM trigger.. I also have a 16 inch bull with a Wilson Barrel and the same lower setup..
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/bigrick_photos/shooting%20stuff/t223-07-05-10.jpg
Canonshooter
10-03-10, 19:33
The 75gr bullets is probably at the upper limit of the 1-8 twist of your barrel. When seeking 3/4" groups or better in my 1-8 RRA NM barrel it seemed that 68-69gr bullets was the preferred weight. Of course, you may not be looking for such tight groups, and if the 75 grain bullets shoot 1" or so out of your barrel, that would be plenty good and nothng to scoff at.
Thanks for the insight. I'll work with the 75s to start and if they don't give me consistent 1 MOA, I'll go to the 69s.
Here is a group of 5 shots from earlier this year.. This is a 52 grain Sierra Match King. I have been lurking for a while but this topic really sparked my interest. I love to shoot my bull barreled AR's.. I shoot a 20 inch DPMS upper on a C3 lower with a RR NM trigger.. I also have a 16 inch bull with a Wilson Barrel and the same lower setup..
http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af333/bigrick_photos/shooting%20stuff/t223-07-05-10.jpg
Huhh?? :confused: ...What the heck kind of an AR15 group is that, and how did you get it!!? :) Seriously, that looks like my best 5 shot groups with my custom varmint bolt actions, and nothing I'd ever expect out of an AR.
Is that 50 or 100 yards? Tell us something about the ammo you used to do that, and how the rifle is being held. (bench style rifle rest, sand bags, lead-sled? etc.)
Well for one I find it funny somone not even here for a year is telling someone else that just joined, "you wont last here long".
But anyway I just joined and right off the bat was treated very shitty over my decision to buy a brand not within the elites recomendations. And no its NOT just somoene telling me that they underperform (without proof other than hearsay) its outright being attacked.
Im sure I will get belittled for posting this. There is a HUGE difference between making recomendations and suggestions, and making someone feel like shit for making a purchase thats not considered 'top tier'. And it has nothing to do with being coddled, its called common curtosey and respect.
Im just calling it like I see it, and if I get banned for it **** it. But there are a lot of elitist assholes here. And if you are wondering why I am sticking around (so far) its because there IS a lot of good info here. But that doesnt excuse rude behavior.
Haha most of the "elitist" here are the people who were or are allowing you to sleep soundly on your serta matress at night. It might be a wise thing to thank them when offered advice rather than getting offended when offered the truth about what your buying.
rkwrichard
10-03-10, 23:26
Huhh?? :confused: ...What the heck kind of an AR15 group is that, and how did you get it!!? :) Seriously, that looks like my best 5 shot groups with my custom varmint bolt actions, and nothing I'd ever expect out of an AR.
Is that 50 or 100 yards? Tell us something about the ammo you used to do that, and how the rifle is being held. (bench style rifle rest, sand bags, lead-sled? etc.)
This is my pet 52 grain Sierra Matchking hand load that was shot at 100 yards off a bench with sandbags.. I like this lite bullet since I also shoot it out of a 1-10 Wilson 16" barrel.
My load uses Stoner's original IMR 3031 powder and Bench rest primers.. I consider this DPMS 20" bull or varmint barrel matched up with a C3 Defense Enhanced AR-15 Billet Lower and Rock River National Match trigger about as good as I would ever need..
That has been my bullet of choice for nearly 20 years now on my .22-250 bolt gun (H380 from old times, of course). I may have to work some up now : ) in the AR - amazing!
I love accurate rifles. Being a gas gun with the need for a looser chamber, the AR15 is not as good as a benchrest bolt action rifle, but if setup right, they can be impressive.
My best shooter has a LaRue Stealth upper, with a Lilja 24" 4 groove 1:8 twist barrel, a JP Rifles bolt carrier & High Performance bolt, and a Gisselle trigger. I think a good barrel is the most critical component of an accurate rifle. I mounted a 5.5-22x Nightforce scope on it (it looks damn silly, like a rifle hung below a scope, but it works well:sarcastic:).
I experimented a lot with handloads, trying to get the best accuracy. Neck turning didn't make any difference. Might have hurt in fact. Miking cases didn't seem to make a difference. Weighing cases might made a small difference. The brass it likes best is Lapua match, but Lake City is almost as good if cases are weighed.
This gun likes Vihtavuori N150 best. I tried every bullet I could get my hands on. It likes the Hornady 75 gn HPBT Molly very much, consistently yielding 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yds. I bought 5k of them when they were on sale 5 years ago and am glad I did. It also likes the 55 gn Sierra Blitzking using Accurate Arms 2230, despite not being a match bullet. Strangely, though, it shoots best out past 100 yds with Hornady 80gn AMAX Moly, fed from a magazine. Hell and Jesus on ground squirrels. Yes, I know the bullet ogive ends up seating partially in the case neck. Yes, I know conventional wisdom tells us this might be dangerous. But it exhibits consistent velocity and excellent accuracy at 450 yds with no feeding problems or pressure signs. Also bucks the wind better than anything else I experimented with, but I admit my wind drift tests were very subjective. Give it a try.
Magic_Salad0892
10-04-10, 02:52
I have a couple questions:
Is 1:8 the preferred twist of precision shooters? What advantages would it have over 1:7?
Out of 1:7 what's the most accurate factory load you've used?
I'm currently getting about .8'' or so with a KAC SR-15 that I haven't had chopped yet. (14.5''. Currently 16.1'') (ACOG at 100 meters. Prone.)
That's with BH 77 gr. (.223)
Is there any 5.56 NATO ammo that will produce similar grouping or better?
All are free to answer. :)
Also: ''My load uses Stoner's original IMR 3031 powder and Bench rest primers''
Isn't that the stick powder touted as ''self cleaning'' when the M16 was introduced?
ewells2420
10-04-10, 07:09
Haha most of the "elitist" here are the people who were or are allowing you to sleep soundly on your serta matress at night. It might be a wise thing to thank them when offered advice rather than getting offended when offered the truth about what your buying.
haha I did my time too budy. And thats not a valid arguement for being a dickhead.
Smuckatelli
10-04-10, 08:42
:D
Definitely me
My goal is to master irons out to 600yds (highpower competition)
A little food for thought Dan.
It takes a little more time to master the RRA iron sights.
I had a Colt 6721 & 6920 when my daughter first started to get into competition in 2009. For her first 600 yard match she used the 6920 with an A2 stock and Gesselle trigger. She did okay but the other kids teased her about her "toy rifle.":sarcastic:
I ended up trading the 6721 for a NIB RRA NMA4 and gave it to her to compete at Perry in August 2009. About mid season 2010 she told me that she was finally getting as consistant with the RRA as she was with the 6920 at 600 yards.
I had her break out her data books from both seasons and 'helped' her figure out why. The sights on the 6920 are pretty much straight forward; moving back from the 300 to the 600 only requires moving the dial to the 600. On the RRA it requires (for her) 78 clicks of elevation (between the 200 and 600) because it has quarter minute adjustments.
She only uses Black Hills 77gr Match.
Thanks, I've been shooting for a little while with it and I've become 'decent'.
There is a method for marking sights that I'm happy with and negates the need to count tens of clicks .
and 78 clicks is what Bulletflight 2 gives me for 77SMK at 2700fps which is what I'm reloading
(got a decent source for BH 77 Gold or red box? :o, someone here told me midway but it doesn't show BH Gold in any 223 bullet)
Smuckatelli
10-04-10, 09:56
I have her use nail polish to mark her rear sight. I think the biggest issue is that she tries to get the X ring and if she drops out of it (12 or 6 o'clock), she'll start applying elevation to get that quarter of minute.....without realizing that she jerked the trigger or her sling wasn't tight enough.
for the S&G shooting she uses Black Hills blue box, at the Quantico and Perry matches she uses red box. The blue box I get from the team for $600.00 for a case of 1000. The red box I get from here:
http://www.triadtactical.com/Intel-Celeron-1.2GHz-FCPGA2-Retail-Boxed.html
Usually in the late spring they offer free shipping and discounts for buying 1000 rounds or more.
Vance W.
That's some pretty good shooting there too. Dang...maybe you guys have a natural knack for AR shooting.....and it's just not in me. You'd be amazed (or laugh) if you saw all the stuff I did to make the 12 hand loaded cartridges that I take with me to the range. (and the 3 hours I take to shoot 10 of those rounds in two 5 shot groups. LOL)
Thank you sir.
I try to get out when I can, and I definately am wanting to "fine tune" my shootin. :D
My range has a 200yd section and I'm really wanting to try out the new Nikon to see if the adjustment ring is on, or what compensation I'll need to take.
Rgds!
VanceW.
I've got one of those RRA NM's myself....but in the A4 configuration. But what a pretty way to show it off like that. I think I'll toss my wife's vase with those retarded artificial flowers right out the window and put my RRA there on the dining room table instead! Nothing brightens up a room like a dark beautiful showpiece like that .....don't you think!
BTW.....email me and let me know your address just in case I need a warm comfortable basement to stay should the wife toss me outside with those flowers.
ha !!! made me laugh !!
Smuckatellli,
Are you seeing much diffence in groups between the red box and blue box?
I just built up two 16" AR's in 1/8 twist. One is a Lilja barrel and the other a Wilson. My son is in college and doesn't have acces to loading gear and wants to be able to buy bulk "target" ammo and is looking for the best he can get.
Thanks,
WW
I have a couple questions:
Is 1:8 the preferred twist of precision shooters? What advantages would it have over 1:7?
Out of 1:7 what's the most accurate factory load you've used?
I'm currently getting about .8'' or so with a KAC SR-15 that I haven't had chopped yet. (14.5''. Currently 16.1'') (ACOG at 100 meters. Prone.)
That's with BH 77 gr. (.223)
Is there any 5.56 NATO ammo that will produce similar grouping or better?
All are free to answer. :)
Also: ''My load uses Stoner's original IMR 3031 powder and Bench rest primers''
Isn't that the stick powder touted as ''self cleaning'' when the M16 was introduced?
Magic,
I don't mean to ignore you, but I really have very limited experience with most of the questions you're asking. I only use handloads and know nothing about boxed ammo performance. Perhaps I just had bad luck with my RRA NM 1-8 shooting Sierra and Hornady BTHP 52gr bullets into dismal 1"- 1 1/8" groups. I've always preferred heavier bullets, and so quickly gave up when about 4 different 52gr loads didn't deliver accuracy, while the 68 grain bullets did better from the get go.
KYPD,
Yep....I do alot of serious fussing myself with handloads too. Because we have so much access to once fired 223 commercial brass, I decided in the beginning to just stick with Remington and cull out the reject cases that won't hand load uniformly for precision target shooting. (Otherwise like you, I prefer Lapua brass too) Ultimately, because the AR15 is a military weapon I have decided to keep the rounds magazine length. I also use a scope that is mounted via a quick detachable mount to retain the weapon's tactical roots, giving me the option of reverting to the A2 style F.S.B and B.U.I.S.
To obtain my latest 1/2" 5 shot group, besides using CCI 400 primers which my barrel seems to like, I lowered my Jewel trigger pull from 3 lbs to about 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 lbs, and individually hand fed each round into the chamber. It's not easy feeding a round into that barrel through the dust-cover opening. I had previously always been using a magazine with a single round placed in it. (I'm not sure if using a magazine to feed just one round might possibly have been causing bullet deformation.....I doubt it did)
Once I go back to the range and feel assured I can dulpicate those tight groups some more, I then intend to have that 20" RRA NM barrel sent in to be recontoured and fluted for lighter weight, and also have the A2 stock replaced with an LMT SOPMOD retractable stock. I know folks war that recontouring and fluting is risky business that can spoil accuracy, but Dave at ADCO claims he "can't remember the last time it's happened in thousands of jobs". Sounds like a good clculated gamble to me!
It's my intention to get this weapon transformed into a more compact and tactical style carry rifle. Since I don't engage in competition, I personally no longer care to own such a long and heavy rifle to fire such a small caliber bullet. This is just personal preference, and I'm not knocking those folks who like the full stocked 5.56 AR rifle.
and individually hand fed each round into the chamber. It's not easy feeding a round into that barrel through the dust-cover opening. I
VaniB: try leaving an empty mag in the magwell, and that way the rounds you're trying to single-load don't have a tendency to drop through. You can use the ping-pong paddle combined with riding the CH forward to let the single-fed round go in as gently as you wish.
To get the smallest groups possible, you have to eliminate human error. No one is saying that, so accuracy freaks are likely on the wrong forum. There are precision shooting forums out there, and you can apply a lot of the info to an AR. That aside, most bench rests are not designed for the AR platform, and some of them won't even allow a free floated bolt action rifle to remain free floated when strapped in. If you are getting dime size groups at 100yds and beyond, you have mad skills.
Check out Dave Brennan's "Precision Shooting at 1000 Yards". If you really enjoy precision shooting, you will not be able to read this book just once.
Alaskapopo
10-27-10, 23:31
Seems that sometimes we're out of place on the web if we don't compete but we try for those tight target groups at the range. What AR do you shoot? I prefer heavy weight bullets with a faster twist barrel myself.
Depends on the Ar. With my Larue Stealth I try and shoot as small of groups as possible and I have used it in a precision rifle competition. WIth my other AR's I use them for work or for three gun competition where speed is also an issue and hitting the target is the key not small groups.
Here is my precision AR.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Laruedesc.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/N140accuracyload.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/LarueVargetgroups.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/H355.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/Laruegroups4-27-10.jpg
400 yards
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/400yardgroupgood.jpg
It doesn't matter if you are shooting a Red Ryder, if you cannot hold the rifle still, you ain't gonna get good groups. Obviously, you know how to do that.
I’m only an accuracy nut, or more correctly said, a precision nut with certain guns I own. Shooting groups is about precision not accuracy. Accuracy and precision are two different things. I have a Larue 20”, that I handload for, and get good tight groups with. It likes heaver, longer profile bullets.
accuracy being the guns ability to get a bullet to go straight and precision being you getting the gun to do that?
I'm definitly an accuracy nut. Despite this, my current rifle can shoot waaaay better than I can. My goal is to be able to kill people at 500 yds with iron sights.
I used to have a CMMG carbine M4 profile barrel (1x7) upper. I got decent groups with 55 gr.
I now have a BCM Middy. :laugh: Also 1x7. I going to swap to 62 gr. and see what happens.
bottom line: problem is diagnosed as not enough time/money to train. :mad:
Depends on the Ar. With my Larue Stealth I try and shoot as small of groups as possible and I have used it in a precision rifle competition. WIth my other AR's I use them for work or for three gun competition where speed is also an issue and hitting the target is the key not small groups.
Here is my precision AR.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Laruedesc.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/N140accuracyload.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/LarueVargetgroups.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/H355.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/Laruegroups4-27-10.jpg
400 yards
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Larue%20Stealth%20targets/400yardgroupgood.jpg
Glad you got that N135 to work for you. Didn't work well for me with 77 Noslers. I'll try different primers.
Its nice to see a post about actual shooting . Theres two much talk about the pile of money people spend on the latest and greatest and mines better than yours. Some guys buy the best (milspec or better) that money can buy name their equipment 20x each post and rag on everyone else for thier low list ARs and never talk about the fun they have shooting.....Well I like to read about people actually using their equipment. Nice post
that's because M4C is all about best practices and excellence of concept. it's not a dirt shooter site. it that's what you want there are plenty of those.
I see this all the time on other enthusiast sites. I ride motorcycles. Ducati by choice and at one time had three, still have two with the third being an Aprilia. I used to Roadrace and still consider myself a fast street rider and visit enthusiast sites looking for news, updates, or the latest technical information. someone will post about their latest go-fast goodie and invariably someone will post that it is not needed, a waste of money, or that their own brand is just as good as, generally accompanied by a pic of their cruiser (Harley).
now, there is a time and a place for enjoying the simpler pleasures that our hobbies afford and I wholeheartedly take part in that. but a site dedicated to technical and performance excellence is not the place. I hope this solves your confusion...
edit: whoops! sorry to dredge this back up after it seems to have been settled but I think it's relevant as to the overall demeanor we should expect here. if you don't have anything to add, think twice about jumping in and stinking up the joint.
now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
accuracy being the guns ability to get a bullet to go straight and precision being you getting the gun to do that?
Accuracy=how close your projectiles land to what you intended to hit. (~placement)
Precision=how tight your groups are (~repeatability)
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