View Full Version : First carbine course gear recommendations
I just signed up for my first carbine course and I need to get some gear to hold mags and pistol. The class description said minimum 3 mags for each weapon. I think 3 handgun mags (1 in the pistol and 2 in a pouch) would work for me and 2 or 3 mags for my AR in addition to the one in the rifle would be good. My main concern is distribution of weight being that I am a smaller guy ( 5'9" 145 lbs). I am really not sure which way to go in regards to a belt or chest rig. Price is a concern being that this isnt gear I will need to use everyday but I do believe in doing something right. I do also have a camelbak that I can use so hydration isnt a concern.
Any recommendations? Thanks for the help guys. Looking forward to my first course.
titsonritz
09-30-10, 19:08
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=772225&postcount=348
In my opinion, don't buy anything just for the class. As it's your first class, you'll find out what suits you best, and will probably have a chance to run several types of gear from other students/instructors. There very well may be a short lecture on gear choices as well.
To get by I would suggest a pistol mag carrier (single or double), and to run rifle mags out of your pockets, unless the pants you're wearing just won't allow it. Super easy to run a rifle mag in your back pocket, throw another in the front pocket if you have to.
FWIW I run all Raven gear. I don't bother with chest rigs, I don't wear one in real life, and I don't wear one in competitions. I typically run a Raven double pistol mag carrier, and if needed a Raven single AR mag carrier. I run a Redi-Mag on my rifle so I often don't run a rifle carrier, just keep a few extras in pockets as needed.
I think your best bet would be to get a pistol magazine carrier to keep those secured, and hang tight on other gear. Pick a pistol mag carrier that you will use in real life while carrying your handgun. I carry my Raven stuff every day. I always try to keep my gear choices as 'real' as possible, and avoid stuff I'll only use at class. It ultimately depends on what you're planning on doing with the rifle, how it will be implemented.
In my opinion, don't buy anything just for the class. As it's your first class, you'll find out what suits you best, and will probably have a chance to run several types of gear from other students/instructors. There very well may be a short lecture on gear choices as well.
To get by I would suggest a pistol mag carrier (single or double), and to run rifle mags out of your pockets, unless the pants you're wearing just won't allow it. Super easy to run a rifle mag in your back pocket, throw another in the front pocket if you have to.
FWIW I run all Raven gear. I don't bother with chest rigs, I don't wear one in real life, and I don't wear one in competitions. I typically run a Raven double pistol mag carrier, and if needed a Raven single AR mag carrier. I run a Redi-Mag on my rifle so I often don't run a rifle carrier, just keep a few extras in pockets as needed.
I think your best bet would be to get a pistol magazine carrier to keep those secured, and hang tight on other gear. Pick a pistol mag carrier that you will use in real life while carrying your handgun. I carry my Raven stuff every day. I always try to keep my gear choices as 'real' as possible, and avoid stuff I'll only use at class. It ultimately depends on what you're planning on doing with the rifle, how it will be implemented.
"I like yer style dude."
Thanks for the advice. I'll pocket my rifle mags for now and see how it goes.
I agree with what everybody's saying. Don't go buy a bunch of gear in anticipation. I buy gear like I buy tools: when I need it.
But, I do recommend these:
http://www.skdtac.com/Ready_Tactical_AR15_Mag_Pouch_p/rdt.110.htm
They fit on my duty belt and worked great on my regular belt in a couple classes. I have used these alone and, later, in conjunction with a rig. I don't like stashing mags in my pockets, but it may work for you.
Alot depends on who you are training with and the level of class and instruction.
Running mags out of your pockets is a dumb idea, for the classes I've attended. you will only slow everyone down, including yourself, thus reducing the amount of learning going on.
I understand the whole, train as you fight thing, but do that at home, on your time.
The instructor has a minimal amount of time to put out as much info as possible to a wide array of ability types. Stopping to pick up mags that have fallen from your pockets, or rounds that have become dislodged due to pocket carry, no place to put partially spent mags, etc etc all slow stuff down.
Pat Rogers has written multiple times on what to bring to class, check here, Lightfighter, 10-8 and his web sight. What does the instructor of your class recommend? and Why?
What are you running for carry gear for your pistol now?
I would run my standard carry gear, for the shortgun.
For the longgun,
There are a number of basic chestrigs, from Eagle, Blackhawk, Spectre, SKD, ATS, etc. etc. They are inexpensive, hold 3-4 rifle mags and maybe 2 pistol/light mags. Add a basic roll up dump pouch and your set. For the amount of monay you will spend on teh class, in tuition, ammo, etc. another 150 bucks for a basic rig is money well spent.
You will also have it available for future classes, or the various red dawn, zombie, end of the world scenarios, that you may find yourself in.
Seriously, I've taken alot of classes, and I would not attend with mags stuck in my pocket. You don't need a full on heavy vest, but you need something.
Check out,
Eagle chest pouch .223, about 75 bucks
ATS low profile chest rig, about 100 bucks, and it has two GP pouchs on either side, which can be used to carry water, lube, etc to the line, and the other as an improvised dump pouch.
Having a basic set up like that, will allow you to concentrate on the class, and not be constantly fooling with less then optimal gear setups.
Bob
Maybe you could borrow a chest rig, but if not, I'd DEFINITELY buy one. I'd hate running a course with mags in my pockets, and doing so puts you at serious risk for being "that guy". I am confident that that scenario will detract from your enjoyment of the course. You can buy a nice simple, high-quality Tactical Tailor MAV (http://www.tacticaltailor.com/mav-modularassaultvests.aspx) for $60 and mount the pouches of your choice. If you're not going to deploy anywhere with it (sand or street), it will likely be the last chest rig you ever need. Only drawback to the MAV is it's rear entry. If you HAVE to get it on quickly, get the two piece MAV for $12 more - it buckles in front. I found that concept harder to use.
Mine is set up with 4 ITW FastMags mounted across the left, 4 pistol mags on the right. I also mount two BladeTech kydex molded AR15 pouches and two pistol mags on an Uncle Mike's instructor belt (pistol on the other side, of course) so I can run "slick" if the vest isn't working for me for a given evolution. I also keep a foldable dump pouch (RolyPoly - crucial piece of equipment IMHO) on both the vest and belt.
Anyway, works for me
I like Bob's post. To the OP, can you tell us who the instructor is? Can you tell us your role (LE? mil? regular earth person?)
You may also find this to be helpful (http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/56227.html).
It's not about specific products or gear, it's about understanding your role and fitting your gear to your role. Don't let people get you caught up in various ways of using "train like you fight" to justify their purchases or their recommendations of gear their friends make. If you're a regular earth person start with your everyday pistol carry gear and build from there. If your other load carriage makes you adjust this and does not come with some other substantive benefit (like armor), it's the wrong load carriage and you need to look elsewhere.
Battle belts are all the rage again, but a battle belt with canted mag pouches, a drop-leg holster, etc. is wholly counter-productive. If you're going to use a battle belt, do everything you can to keep your pistol and pistol mags in as close to their everyday location as you can. Since the belt by definition will keep these items further from your body, you need to ensure that they are in the same rotational location and elevation relative to your pants belt to minimize training scars.
Maybe you could borrow a chest rig, but if not, I'd buy one. I'd hate running a course with mags in my pockets. You can buy a nice simple, high-quality Tactical Tailor MAV (http://www.tacticaltailor.com/mav-modularassaultvests.aspx) for $60 and mount the pouches of your choice. If you're not going to deploy anywhere with it (sand or street), it will likely be the last chest rig you ever need. Only drawback to the MAV is it's rear entry. If you HAVE to get it on quickly, get the two piece MAV for $12 more - it buckles in front. I found that concept harder to use.
Mine is set up with 4 ITW FastMags mounted across the left, 4 pistol mags on the right. I also mount two BladeTech kydex molded AR15 pouches and two pistol mags on an instructor belt (pistol on the other side, of course) so I can run "slick" if the vest isn't working for me for a given evolution. I also keep a foldable dump pouch (RolyPoly - crucial piece of equipment IMHO) on both the vest and belt.
Anyway, works for me
I don't have a MAV, but a Mini-MAV, and yesterday I tried mounting ITW Fastmags to it and they were too bunched up. Do you have a picture of your rig?
Only issue I have with all-MOLLE rigs and adding pouches is that you quickly get past any cost savings once you buy the pouches. MOLLE rig tends to be less than rig with pouches, but MOLLE rig plus 3-4 $20/ea pouches quickly exceed the price of a rig with built-in pouches.
I don't have a MAV, but a Mini-MAV, and yesterday I tried mounting ITW Fastmags to it and they were too bunched up. Do you have a picture of your rig?
Only issue I have with all-MOLLE rigs and adding pouches is that you quickly get past any cost savings once you buy the pouches. MOLLE rig tends to be less than rig with pouches, but MOLLE rig plus 3-4 $20/ea pouches quickly exceed the price of a rig with built-in pouches.Yeah, that's kind of a disappointment, you have to skip a PALS loop between FastMags. I did try stacking them, but that just didn't work for me - stuck out too far and kept catching the CH. I've tried bungee/open top pouches, and they'd be fine if one didn't mind running tac reloads out of the dump pouch, but I'm trying to be more like Chris Costa ;), so I want to be able to re-order my mags in the pouches, and with a minimum of fumbling. I've found that the convenience of the FastMags outweighs them being spread farther out across the front. For me. So far. If I were that industrious, I'd be looking hard for some Kydex-lined pouches that would mount right next to each other, but so far this arrangement is working well for me, and I have enough money invested in FastMags that I'm going to work with this rig for awhile and see if it holds up.
I understand your point about all-MOLLE, but my approach was that the attached equipment is the money shot, and didn't want to be limited to what the vest designer thought I should carry. This way all I have to do is get some other MOLLE vest if I want to change and slap my old pouches on in the configuration that I want, and not pay extra for an additional set of pouches. I'm not going to be deploying anywhere anytime soon, so I'm in favor of the modular approach rather than ending up with 3 or 4 different chest rigs sitting around the house.
http://mccollister.info/mav2.jpg
Someone may have already mentioned this, I only skimmed the thread...but I recommend taking as many mags as feasible. Sure, you can probably run the whole class with 5 mags, but you'll spend every lull hurriedly jamming rounds into magazines. My personal experience is that having lots of mags loaded up and ready to go allows your hands to stop working between drills to let your brain catch up and process the things you are learning. Sometimes you may want to stop and ask the instructor questions after a drill, and if you are totally focused on loading mags for the next drill, you'll skip that. You'll still need to jam mags, but a little less often, or at least at more leisurely pace throughout the day. Depending on the round count/class pacing, you may even be able to get by with only loading morning/lunch/evening.
The good thing too is that you're not likely to take the class then decide "oh crap I wish I had less mags". If you buy good quality mags -- I like plain black Pmags and the good USGIs from a place like Bravo Company -- you've not wasted any money on something you'll outgrow.
I agree with others about striking the appropriate balance between functional gear and the "train like you fight" concept. In my opinion, a first carbine class is about learning to manipulate the rifle safely and efficiently and you want gear that facilitates that, not fights it, and taking the train-like-you-fight train all the way to the station doesn't necessarily result in creating a proper learning environment. I'm a big fan of some basic belt gear. You can run an AR pouch, pistol pouch, holster, and a dump pouch off a basic riggers belt or even an everyday carry belt and be pretty dang functional.
On the other hand, it all depends on the class, too. If the plan is for 1200-1500 rounds spread over two days, you'll probably want to carry more mags. If it's more basic and you're looking at 300 round spread over 2 days, one mag in a back pocket is probably fine.
It's really all a thinking exercise to define your question, and then solve it.
LOK makes a good point re: mags. I have attended classes where I showed up with enough mags loaded to run the entire class without ever jamming a mag. This is heaven. What I tend to do now is take enough mags to allow me to load up at night in the hotel and then not jam mags at the range. I had US Grunt Gear make me up a 10 mag purse which, with Pmags gets me 300 rounds, and I'm going to have him make me a second one. 600 rounds between two purses should get me through all but the most aggressive of classes.
Hmac, I know what you're saying re: MOLLE allowing you to reconfigure. That's what I used the Mini-MAV for prior to having my custom rig built. I could move things around as needed to allow me to tweak my setup, and then carry that final configuration over to my hard-stitched rig. thanks for the tip re: skipping one row. I may try that with my mini now that it's not doing anything else.
Great idea about the mags. I have 14 now and will acquire a couple more hear and there before the class I take in Nov. The class syllabus says I will need 500 rounds. I'll have most of what I need preloaded before class.
I'm going to wear my Mayflower UW chest rig for this class. A little expensive but it is lightweight, comfortable and will carry everything I need for most any class I take.
Hmac,
Look at teh Eagle FB pouches, kydex lined, open topped with a secondary velcro flap that can be secured out of the way. If it had pals on the front, It would be all but perfect. I have a few here and there, and still run a few 1x2 pouches.
Not only are hard sewn rigs cheaper, they are generally lowerprofile & less bulky. They are a good starting place, until you figure it out.
Bob
I really appreciate all the info you guys have given me in this thread. I am a regular civilian Joe. No door kicking here. As far as mags go I have 10 I can take. Unfortunately I do live in CA so "all" of them are 10 rounders. I can see how pre-loading them all before the class can def save some time on the range. That was great advice.
Today I did pick up a riggers belt and I have a holster and a double pistol mag pouch on the way. I was thinking of these for the AR mags.
http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=175
Any feedback on these? They seem like a simple solution for carrying a couple mags. I was trying to stay away from the vest because short of total SHTF I wont ever use it outside of a class. I am thinking a simple belt setup might be the way to go.
SeriousStudent
10-03-10, 22:54
I have a pair of those Gen 3 Fast Mags on an ATS warbelt, and have been happy with it so far. I have been using it to practice reloads, with both PMags and USGI mags.
Retention is good, release speed is also good. I like them about as much as I like my Eagle FB mag holders.
I'm planning on taking both (ITW and Eagle) to a Vickers carbine class in February.
I also think Rob and Bob have given a lot of good advice in this thread, and have valued their counsel over the years.
Hmac,
Look at teh Eagle FB pouches, kydex lined, open topped with a secondary velcro flap that can be secured out of the way. If it had pals on the front, It would be all but perfect. I have a few here and there, and still run a few 1x2 pouches.
Not only are hard sewn rigs cheaper, they are generally lowerprofile & less bulky. They are a good starting place, until you figure it out.
Bob
I assume these are the mag holders you were referring to?
http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=104&cat=83&page=1
These are belt mountable correct? Are these a better way to go compared to the Blue Force mag holders?
I assume these are the mag holders you were referring to?
http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=104&cat=83&page=1
These are belt mountable correct? Are these a better way to go compared to the Blue Force mag holders?
I've not used the Eagle Fb's, but I've used the belt-mounted FastMags a lot and they work very, very well. If you get 4 of them, you can stack them 2-on-2 and carry four AR mags in the belt space of two.
I'm not sure how the Eagles would work with 10-round mags, and since they appear to be MOLLE, I'm not sure how they'd work on a riggers belt.
Pretty sure the Eagle FB are available in both molle and belt mounted, or at least they were.
Depends, are your 10 rounders blocked 20's,30's or those really short ones?
Keep in mind, putting a pistol, 2 pistol mags, and 2 or more AR mags, and maybe a dump pouch on a riggers belt is going to be alot. I've tried the riggers belt only and never really cared for it, it drags your pants down, and puts all the weight on your hips.
I understand your reluctance to go the chest rig route, look at it as school supplies, most of which don't get used outside the classroom. They facilitate your learning, ie not dicking with gear, or "fight the enemy, not your gear" train of thought.
I've been in classes, and I'm sure Rob has also, with guys who had to do it different, and run a minimal belt kit, or even ols school alice gear, and other surplus kit, it never works out for them.
Search the forums, and perhaps a good used rig will turn up, some one close by can loan you one, or at worst, buy a good simple rig, like I described, the 03designs rig is nice also. If you never take another class, or decide you'll never use it, sell it. I doubt that though.
Who is your instructor? Does he have a recommendation? & why? What is the curriculum? That would help us help you. If its a very basic class, perhaps you can get buy with the riggers belt setup. I've trained with Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Jim Smith, Jeff Gonzales, Thunder Ranch, Albuquerque SWAT, and probably a few others, your set up would not cut it with them, or at teh very least be less then optimal.
Bob
I have a few of each type of mag. I do have a couple short ten rounders but I also have a few 10/20 and 10/30 pmags. The school is Stone Cobra and it is a one day class. Here is a link to the course page.
http://www.stonecobratactical.com/HG_Carbine.html
If I was going to go the chest rig route I think this is what I was going to get.
http://www.skdtac.com/Eagle_M4_Chest_Rig_LE_3_Mag_p/eag.563.htm
Two of those mag pouches are about the same cost as the rig.
On a riggers belt I prefer the Ready Tactical (http://www.skdtac.com/Ready_Tactical_AR15_Mag_Pouch_p/rdt.110.htm) AR mag pouch to anything else I've tried. I wish they did a 1.5" version but the 1.75" have worked fine for me.
for light work I like my daily carry IWB holster (a Raven) strong side and pouches from RT on my support side. Front to back I have pistol mag, rifle mag, handheld light. I will either wear ninja pants like the Eotac or Woolrich Elite in order to have a "dump pocket" or attach a small lightweight dump pouch to the belt itself. I can add an Eagle M4FB chest rig with a small pouch for a Leatherman (and NOTHING ELSE) if I need to carry more AR mags, and back-feed the RT pouch on the belt from the chest.
and yes, to concur with Bob, I have been in classes with too many guys that insist on being anachronistic for whatever reason that just turn into "that guy". Mags falling out of shitty gear, funky dances trying to extract mags from too-tight pouches or piss-poor locations, etc. As I tell my match shooters and drills shooters, "un-**** yourself before you come to the range!" :sarcastic: Regardless of the gear you choose put it all on before you come out and become someone else's problem.
I really appreciate all the info you guys have given me in this thread. I am a regular civilian Joe. No door kicking here. As far as mags go I have 10 I can take. Unfortunately I do live in CA so "all" of them are 10 rounders. I can see how pre-loading them all before the class can def save some time on the range. That was great advice.
At the recent Redback One/Jason Falla class put on by Grey Group we had a shooter from NJ who was using 9 and 10 rd mags, he had a BFG 10 speed chest rig and had a lot of difficulty fishing those short mags out of the pouches.
I would suggest using some sort of rigid mag holders like the ITW Fastmags and even adding Magpul Ranger Plates or original Magpuls to make them easier to grab.
Otherwise I would just get more 10/30 Pmags if you're going to go the chest rig route.
Never heard of those guys, but I may ask about them.
Either way, course looks fairly basic, and low speed. You would probably good either way.
AS you said though, the Eagle rig is not to much money, and offers some options down the road. The pouches on it, are FB type, and it will retain the mag, at various depths of insertion.
Good luck.
Bob
I suspect that the location, and associated legal limitations on magazines, have as much to do with the required loadout as the training itself. Most basic, introductory carbine courses can be run with one in the gun and one on the belt, but given the 10-round limitation I can see why you might need 5 mags.
I would try to get full-length mags that are blocked to 10 rounds though and the midget mags are a bitch to deal with.
I do a few courses per year as well as training with the Tac Team and Bomb Squad. If it's a relatively straightforward scenario, which most of the Tac Team training is for me as medical director, I like to use a velcro instructor's belt, just slap it on. If it's a higher-speed course, I use an instuctor belt through the belt loops. If it's a pistol course, I load up two Blade Tech pistol mag pouches on the belt (4 mags). If it's pistol/rifle, I set it up as below using either BladeTech AR15 pouches or FastMags. If it's a high round-cound rifle course, I add the TT chest rig so I can carry 6 AR mags if necessary. Weight on the belt hasn't been an issue whether I'm using the velcro gun belt, or an instructor belt that's also keeping my pants up. Simpler now that I don't need to carry any of the other tactical accoutrements.
http://mccollister.info/belt.jpg
I run a duty belt which is similar to the previous post, except there are a couple handcuff cases and my pistol magazine pouch is forward of the rifle mag holders. I would like to have tried a war belt, but the duty belt will always be my go-to setup.
If I know I'll need to carry more than one mag in the gun and two on my belt, I use the Eagle M4 rig that the OP mentioned, which holds three mags.
I haven't gone to as many classes as some of you guys, but I've never come up short on mags during the ones I've attenended. Rob is right when he says that the more basic or introductory classes don't usually require more than one in the gun and one extra.
Someone may have already mentioned this, I only skimmed the thread...but I recommend taking as many mags as feasible.
I agree, this is a really good point. I'll load up about 10 mags the night before a course, but I also work to keep a lot of my spare ammo in stripper clips. A year or so ago I bought a couple of hundred USGI stripper clips off ebay for about $15. They worked OK, but...well...you know, not great. UNTIL, I got a StripLULA. Seriously, with a lot of my loose ammo in strippers, I can load a 30 round Pmag in about 5 seconds. Now, I am the envy of the ammo table.
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