View Full Version : M&P Dead trigger?
How big of an issue is this? I just purchased a NIB M&P9, and have been looking at the APEX trigger kits. While researching different trigger jobs, I have come across some info about dead triggers and triggers not resetting on the sear. What's this all about and how often does it seem to be happening?
How big of an issue is this? I just purchased a NIB M&P9, and have been looking at the APEX trigger kits. While researching different trigger jobs, I have come across some info about dead triggers and triggers not resetting on the sear. What's this all about and how often does it seem to be happening?
you don't hear about it much on here.
the general consensus seems to be that the M&P is a very durable, reliable firearm.
I'd put the trigger and recoil spring on a 5k round replacement schedule and not worry about it. the Apex kit makes for a sweet trigger...
you don't hear about it much on here.
the general consensus seems to be that the M&P is a very durable, reliable firearm.
I'd put the trigger and recoil spring on a 5k round replacement schedule and not worry about it. the Apex kit makes for a sweet trigger...
I've seen it on here before. I believe it was something along the lines of the next round chambered, but the striker didn't cock for whatever reason. I believe it was extremely rare in early versions.
I'm with Skyugo, just shoot the hell out of it and don't worry. After a lot of money in ammo, you will forget any growing pains the gun had. I don't have a huge amount of rounds through mine yet, but I've never had any problems - gun or user related.
The Apex kit is amazing, but the trigger smooths out with fire/dry fire. Pick up some snap caps and dry fire it a thousand times or so. Or skip the snap caps if you have the new striker.
spamsammich
10-02-10, 02:34
almost 28k members on this forum. I don't know how many own M&Ps but I've only known of one person with a dead trigger with an Apex kit and it was me. Non-issue now, Apex sorted me out in 2 days time. I've said this before and I'll say it again PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING DEAD TRIGGERS WITH SMITH AND WESSON'S OWN PRO SERIES SEAR. Read the M&P forums and you'll see the issue pre-dates the release of the Apex Hard Sear. I will not say that they are any more or less frequent because I do not own a pro series gun. It is not a problem specific to the Apex kit.
While I have anecdotally heard of the purported issue, so far I have never seen it actually happen despite being around a lot of M&P's...
The Pro trigger was all the rage just a couple years ago but it's more prone to this it seems. Reports of this are not hard to find on the competition oriented boards or pure M&P boards. Search for Randy Lee posts on this board. He's recently reported his findings in detail.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=755328#post755328
I had two instances of this on my Pro 9 across 2400 rds. That is not much.
Some wind up with guns that do it twice per 100 (prob Pro triggers). Certain tuned triggers seem to bring it out but as Randy Lee posted, it may not be fundamentally the trigger part (has happened in some Apex set up guns) but from slide to frame fit/variances.
Stock triggers seems safe bet for a SD gun. Lee/Apex to work on a more robust fix. Grant has suggested S&W is also.
IF you get a "dead trigger" what is the remedy? Does racking the slide fix it everytime or what? I couldn't carry a specific gun that exhibited this behavior, even if infrequently. Hopefully there will be some solutions to the issue forthcoming.
Robb Jensen
10-02-10, 06:32
It happened in my M&P Pro. What fixed it was getting a APEX sear spring.
Mine did it with the factory Pro sear and the Apex sear.
almost 28k members on this forum. I don't know how many own M&Ps but I've only known of one person with a dead trigger with an Apex kit and it was me. Non-issue now, Apex sorted me out in 2 days time. I've said this before and I'll say it again PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING DEAD TRIGGERS WITH SMITH AND WESSON'S OWN PRO SERIES SEAR. Read the M&P forums and you'll see the issue pre-dates the release of the Apex Hard Sear. I will not say that they are any more or less frequent because I do not own a pro series gun. It is not a problem specific to the Apex kit.
Make that 2..I had a dead trigger issue..It happened once, and since I live 20 minutes from G&R, (where I bought it) I took it to Grant for him to look at.What he found it that my M&P was at the upper end of the tolerances allowed for slide/frame fit,(.049) this is controlled by the housings that contain the sear and trigger basically some M&P's are a little higher and some aren't, mine was one of the higher ones. The higher housings can allow the striker to ride over the sear,due to it being a little higher, and the sear spring not being strong enough to return quickly enough,Since I have a Apex DCAEK installed I called them up and asked them what we could do..Randy offered to fix my sear housing by drilling out the existing hole for the sear spring and installing a Mass. sear spring in it's place and installing a revised sear with a tail that is .010 higher..All I would have to do is send it out to them, and they would do the machine work for free, I'd pay for the parts and shipping.I shipped it out to them and received it earlier this week, Before installing it pushed on the sear and noticed it was alot harder to get the sear to move, once installed, I could'nt tell from pulling the trigger that there was any difference, This should permently fix the "dead" trigger issue..If you have a Apex kit and are experiencing a dead trigger, call Apex, They will help you out.
I had it happen one time, when I put a pro sear in last year. Since switching to APEX in both my guns, never had a problem (about 4,000 rounds later).
I also saw it once in a class, with a completely stock M&P9 another shooter was using.
The Pro trigger was all the rage just a couple years ago but it's more prone to this it seems. Reports of this are not hard to find on the competition oriented boards or pure M&P boards. Search for Randy Lee posts on this board. He's recently reported his findings in detail.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=755328#post755328
I had two instances of this on my Pro 9 across 2400 rds. That is not much.
Some wind up with guns that do it twice per 100 (prob Pro triggers). Certain tuned triggers seem to bring it out but as Randy Lee posted, it may not be fundamentally the trigger part (has happened in some Apex set up guns) but from slide to frame fit/variances.
Stock triggers seems safe bet for a SD gun. Lee/Apex to work on a more robust fix. Grant has suggested S&W is also.
2 instances is twice more than is acceptable. Once is one dead trigger too many, unless its a range only gun.
Beat Trash
10-02-10, 19:47
I can't comment on Pro triggers, as l only have shot few guns that had the factory Pro triggers, and only a few magazines through each.
As far as the stock triggers, I have yet to see or hear of this being an issue with the guns my agency has fielded. I am constantly in touch with and shoot with our armors. I would have heard them complaining if it were an issue.
All of our 9 mm M&P's have the stock trigger. We are in our 5th year of having around 1,100 guns in the filed. These guns have a minimum of around 800 rds per year put through them in training. SWAT officers, people who are shooters, and those serious about training put a lot more rounds than that per year through their guns.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that we haven't seen it happen in our guns.
Personally, I trust my stock M&P. Each and every night I go to work...
2 instances is twice more than is acceptable. Once is one dead trigger too many, unless its a range only gun.
2 instances in all the members on m4carbine.net? If that was the case, I would never carry a 9mm Glock and the .40 Glocks shouldn't be allowed to be sold.
I wouldn't be happy if I experienced a dead trigger on any of my guns but if I know it was part specific, aftermarket at that, I would adress the issue and fire the hell out of it til I felt confident again.
All guns experience the occasional malfunction, from HKs to Glocks to Nighthawks. Luckily, this issue with the M&P is rare, related to an "aftermarket" performance part, and correctable by a tap rack bang. Nothing is perfect.
2 instances in all the members on m4carbine.net? If that was the case, I would never carry a 9mm Glock and the .40 Glocks shouldn't be allowed to be sold.
Nothing is perfect.
No actually he was quoting my post in which I reported having 2 instances across 2400 rds in my one gun. PC sear I shall repeat.
No actually he was quoting my post in which I reported having 2 instances across 2400 rds in my one gun. PC sear I shall repeat.
My apologies, must have skimmed your post.
In that event, 1 dead trigger is too many if its a SD gun. But like I said, the bright side is that the parts responsible are known, its an "aftermarket" part and a tap rack bang fixes the problem. A gun that locks up to the point you can't rapidly fix it in the field would be a deal breaker for me.
Out of curiousity, how did S&W handle the problem? Also, this issue can manifest as often as 2/100 rounds in an affected gun?
I'm considering tuning my trigger, but I've been carrying my new M&P lately in leui of my other usual EDC, so I need to know 100% that any mods are GTG, or I won't bother wasting my time.
MarshallDodge
10-03-10, 00:06
I have seen issues with the PC sear on a friends gun. About 10 failures to reset when the gun was new but after a trip to S&W the gun seems to be running fine.
My stock M&P40 has never had an issue with reset, going on 1800 rounds.
My apologies, must have skimmed your post.
In that event, 1 dead trigger is too many if its a SD gun. But like I said, the bright side is that the parts responsible are known, its an "aftermarket" part and a tap rack bang fixes the problem. A gun that locks up to the point you can't rapidly fix it in the field would be a deal breaker for me.
Out of curiousity, how did S&W handle the problem? Also, this issue can manifest as often as 2/100 rounds in an affected gun?
I'm considering tuning my trigger, but I've been carrying my new M&P lately in leui of my other usual EDC, so I need to know 100% that any mods are GTG, or I won't bother wasting my time.
Actually, the dead trigger occurs with stock pistols as well. It is related to sear bounce. The phenomenon occurs more with sears that have shorter reset lengths -( sear cam geometries). The factory pro sear as well as our sear can exhibit the problem, but it did show up in NC state police .357 sigs which had factory stock sears in them.
The sear spring is just too small to recover during the recoil impulse. The MA compliant sear housing has a spring that is almost 7 times larger than the standard versions. To date, I have not heard of a single MA pistol that has experienced a dead trigger- whether they be using the stock mim sear, the performance center pro sear, or ours.
-Randy
Here is a copy of my experience with the S&W PC sear and failure to reset that I have posted in a couple other threads:
"I have 2 full size M&P .45s. I have had issues with one.
MPRXXXX
- Date Code April 2007
- Approximately 600 rounds of various factory 230 grain FMJ without incident.
- Sent the pistol to S&W for the M&P package (primarily for the PC sear) and Massachusetts trigger spring in order to improve trigger pull and reset.
- Received gun back. Fired 100 rounds of factory 230 grain FMJ. 17 times the trigger failed to reset. If I press checked the gun, the trigger would reset, and I could continue to fire.
- Sent the gun back to S&W. They replaced the striker and fired 60 rounds without incident.
- Received gun back. Fired 50 rounds of factory 230 grain FMJ. 2 times the trigger failed to reset. Press checked the gun, trigger reset, and I fired the cartridge.
- Sent the gun back to S&W. They replaced all fire control components. Two individuals fired a total of 100 rounds through the gun without incident.
- Received gun back. First outing I fired 100 rounds of 230 grain factory ammo without incident. Second outing I fired 200 rounds of 230 grain factory without incident."
At this point, if I decided to purchase another M&P, I would stick with the stock parts.
Actually, the dead trigger occurs with stock pistols as well. It is related to sear bounce. The phenomenon occurs more with sears that have shorter reset lengths -( sear cam geometries). The factory pro sear as well as our sear can exhibit the problem, but it did show up in NC state police .357 sigs which had factory stock sears in them.
The sear spring is just too small to recover during the recoil impulse. The MA compliant sear housing has a spring that is almost 7 times larger than the standard versions. To date, I have not heard of a single MA pistol that has experienced a dead trigger- whether they be using the stock mim sear, the performance center pro sear, or ours.
-Randy
Hey Randy,
I was just curious if you would consider this an upgrade to add the MA compliant spring to a standard M&P9? Is it more durable/better setup?I have been told to measure the frame/slide tolerance before installing a sear. Where do you take this measurement from?
Hey Randy,
I was just curious if you would consider this an upgrade to add the MA compliant spring to a standard M&P9? Is it more durable/better setup?I have been told to measure the frame/slide tolerance before installing a sear. Where do you take this measurement from?
Personally, I do believe the larger spring and plunger definitely reduces the chances of bounce related dead triggers. That said, there are 100s of thousands of owners who never have a problem.
You can use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the slide and where the sear housing resides. The nominal readings I get measure between .036" and .039". Many of the trigger issue guns I have seen have gaps as large as .049.
My solution to the problem involves the use of the larger spring and plunger, incorporated into a new sear housing block that mechanically eliminates sear bounce altogether. In my mind, it shouldn't matter what sear you use. The bounce needs to be eliminated from the system.
-Randy
My solution to the problem involves the use of the larger spring and plunger, incorporated into a new sear housing block that mechanically eliminates sear bounce altogether. In my mind, it shouldn't matter what sear you use. The bounce needs to be eliminated from the system.
-Randy
That makes sense. Just blaming the sear never made sense to me, but I never considered the seaqr spring. I didn't know there were any issues with stock/non-pro series guns.
Is there any downside to using the MA compliant spring?
Personally, I do believe the larger spring and plunger definitely reduces the chances of bounce related dead triggers. That said, there are 100s of thousands of owners who never have a problem.
You can use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the slide and where the sear housing resides. The nominal readings I get measure between .036" and .039". Many of the trigger issue guns I have seen have gaps as large as .049.
My solution to the problem involves the use of the larger spring and plunger, incorporated into a new sear housing block that mechanically eliminates sear bounce altogether. In my mind, it shouldn't matter what sear you use. The bounce needs to be eliminated from the system.
-Randy
So you measure right on top of where the safety hole or arrow is?
jonconsiglio
10-04-10, 07:33
Between my M&P's and a buddies, including DCAEK x3, Pro Series, I've done a couple trigger jobs and well into the many 10's of thousands of rounds, I've never experienced it and I don't believe he has either - and one of his has a much larger gap than the others, though I don't believe it's been measured.
I would not let this be a deterrent from buying one. It is a great gun and is my favorite for training, drills and even carry since I've transitioned from my 1911's recently.
So you measure right on top of where the safety hole or arrow is?
Yes. That is an ideal reference point. Some pistols like the .45 and thumb safetied pistols won't have that as an indicator, but that is the general location.
"Is there any downside to using the MA compliant spring?"
Modifying a standard sear housing block to accept the larger spring and plunger will most certainly void warranty since it is alteration of the factory part. If you can acquire a MA sear block, that would be the easiest solution.
The factory MA sear spring is stout, so you can expect your trigger pull weight to increase by at least 4 oz.
Do they sell the MA sear blocks and springs as parts?
Do they sell the MA sear blocks and springs as parts?
If they=S&W, then sadly no.
Yes sorry, I meant the original equipment ones from Smith.
Bowie Tactical
10-05-10, 17:03
I have seen a number of these dead trigger problems on the M&P on brand new guns. I teach at Tactical Defense Institute and have seen quite a few of these. The problem is a a weak spring that has also experienced at one time some temper problems that lead to quick degrating of the spring. Plus the disconnector has a very short dwell time which can lead to a sear not having time to reset when the spring is weak. This gun is awsome but if you want a better chance of having no problem then the MA. sear block and spring is a better choice. I makes getting a lighter trigger harder but it does reduce the chance of having the sear not reset. You big time do not want a reduced power sear spring of the smaller style on a fighting gun. That is a disaster in the making.
David Bowie
I have to M&P40's, one with the thumb safety and one w/o. They both have been to S&W for the M&P package.
Both were fine for a few hundred rounds, but just last range trip, the gun w/o the safety, had about two or three failures to reset.
So, Smith will get a call, but...
Can a dirty gun, effect this?
Can I fix this with an Apex sear spring?
Should I get Smith to put the MA sear spring or sear housing in the gun, and live with a heavier trigger pull? If its only a few ounces, I can live with that.
Since I plan on eventually selling this gun, because I want another with a thumb safety, perhaps I can get smith to return the gun to standard?
I'm leaning toward the Apex spring or the MA parts from Smith.
Thanks,
Bob
I have to M&P40's, one with the thumb safety and one w/o. They both have been to S&W for the M&P package.
Both were fine for a few hundred rounds, but just last range trip, the gun w/o the safety, had about two or three failures to reset.
So, Smith will get a call, but...
Can a dirty gun, effect this?
Can I fix this with an Apex sear spring?
Should I get Smith to put the MA sear spring or sear housing in the gun, and live with a heavier trigger pull? If its only a few ounces, I can live with that.
Since I plan on eventually selling this gun, because I want another with a thumb safety, perhaps I can get smith to return the gun to standard?
I'm leaning toward the Apex spring or the MA parts from Smith.
Thanks,
Bob
Has the Apex sear spring been shown to be more reliable/durable? I am interested in this as I really want to find a sure bet solution for this problem. If you can't get the MA sear housing and spring from S&W, then how to we get ahold of one?
Should I get Smith to put the MA sear spring or sear housing in the gun, and live with a heavier trigger pull?
This is the best solution, if you can convince them to do it under warranty.
I have to M&P40's, one with the thumb safety and one w/o. They both have been to S&W for the M&P package.
Both were fine for a few hundred rounds, but just last range trip, the gun w/o the safety, had about two or three failures to reset.
So, Smith will get a call, but...
Can a dirty gun, effect this?
Can I fix this with an Apex sear spring?
Should I get Smith to put the MA sear spring or sear housing in the gun, and live with a heavier trigger pull? If its only a few ounces, I can live with that.
Since I plan on eventually selling this gun, because I want another with a thumb safety, perhaps I can get smith to return the gun to standard?
I'm leaning toward the Apex spring or the MA parts from Smith.
Thanks,
Bob
Hi Bob,
My personal feeling is to have Smith install the sear housing with the larger sear spring and plunger. I mentioned somewhere in a couple of threads that the MA sized sear spring and plunger are much larger and longer than the standard counterparts (roughly 2x longer and over twice the diameter). We have our own sear springs for the new MA style sear housings available as well.
-Randy
I just bought an M&P 9 and have put 400 rds through it so far. I had M&P's some time ago and had pretty much all the issues associated with them. I've been shooting nothing but Gen 4 Glocks' for awhile and have been a big proponent of them. But this M&P 9 is great as is. The out of the box trigger is fine. I'm sure Apex is everything everyone says it is but I just don't feel the need to swap out the stock parts.
I'll give Smith a call, and see if I can get teh MA housing and spring. If its only going to add a few ounces to the pull. What I don't want is the equivelent of teh Glock 3.5 connector and NY1 spring combo, I tried that and didn tlike it at all.
HK45,
"Word on the street" is that the new guns have much better triggers. In fact, mine were pretty good as they came, but I figured the machined sear would be a good thing, I should've known there is no free lunch.
LAV once told a friend of mine, when you try and make a gun more like a 1911, you end up with 1911 problems.
Bob
What round count are most people seeing these problems around? I guess the question I'm asking is, does there come a point when you don't have to worry about the sear resetting? Has this caused anyone to change platforms?
spamsammich
10-06-10, 00:24
What round count are most people seeing these problems around? I guess the question I'm asking is, does there come a point when you don't have to worry about the sear resetting? Has this caused anyone to change platforms?
I never worry about it. If it happens to me, somebody is going to help me fix it. Apex or S&W, both of them have great CS for this platform. I haven't shot my G19 in weeks now that I have my full Apex workup.
What round count are most people seeing these problems around? I guess the question I'm asking is, does there come a point when you don't have to worry about the sear resetting? Has this caused anyone to change platforms?
It's unpredictable. It's happened out of the box and on pistols with thousands of rounds. Even measuring the slide to housing gap is not reliable. Mine measures less than 0.036", well within the tolerance and yet had the malfunction.
OK,
Smith is sending out a label to return the gun. Rather then get into a Q&A with the guy that answers the phone, in the letter that explains the issue, I'll request the MA sear housing and spring.
Does anyone know if Smith changes out any springs in teh Action job? The sear and polished feed ramp are obvious.
I was thinking for my other gun, with a pro sear, I may install the Apex trigger return spring and sear spring, if they may help reduce the chance of a dead trigger. This gun has not exhibited the dead trigger though. But, I dont want to wait for it to happen either.
Bob
I checked the gap between the bottom of the slide and the top of frame on my M&P9 FS with Apex DCAEK installed. It is at to .049". Only 300 rounds so far but no issues.
Robb Jensen
10-12-10, 13:44
Actually, the dead trigger occurs with stock pistols as well. It is related to sear bounce. The phenomenon occurs more with sears that have shorter reset lengths -( sear cam geometries). The factory pro sear as well as our sear can exhibit the problem, but it did show up in NC state police .357 sigs which had factory stock sears in them.
The sear spring is just too small to recover during the recoil impulse. The MA compliant sear housing has a spring that is almost 7 times larger than the standard versions. To date, I have not heard of a single MA pistol that has experienced a dead trigger- whether they be using the stock mim sear, the performance center pro sear, or ours.
-Randy
Randy,
Here's a very interesting bit of info. I just picked up a 5" M&P Pro 40. Upon installing the Apex parts I noticed that it has a Mass. trigger housing, sear spring and plunger/detent. I don't know if they're doing these on all M&Ps now or just on the Pros because of the Pro sear. My serial number is DUZ58XX
Later,
Robb
Randy,
Here's a very interesting bit of info. I just picked up a 5" M&P Pro 40. Upon installing the Apex parts I noticed that it has a Mass. trigger housing, sear spring and plunger/detent. I don't know if they're doing these on all M&Ps now or just on the Pros because of the Pro sear. My serial number is DUZ58XX
Later,
Robb
Hi Robb,
I believe all the new pistols are being sent out with the larger MA sized sear spring and plunger. The trigger assemblies we received recently also have the stronger MA trigger return springs, and a trigger loop that has a different slope. The trigger bar has a red marking on the striker block lifter.
Grant is probably better informed on the new guns than I am...
-Randy
Randy,
Here's a very interesting bit of info. I just picked up a 5" M&P Pro 40. Upon installing the Apex parts I noticed that it has a Mass. trigger housing, sear spring and plunger/detent. I don't know if they're doing these on all M&Ps now or just on the Pros because of the Pro sear. My serial number is DUZ58XX
Later,
Robb
Build date?
Here is how you tell the build date.
"Look at the lable on the box to the right of the serial# there is a 4 digit number this is you born on date 1st number represent the year of manufacture the last 3 digits is the day made mine is 7051 wich represents Feb 20, 2007"
Robb Jensen
10-12-10, 14:36
Hi Robb,
I believe all the new pistols are being sent out with the larger MA sized sear spring and plunger. The trigger assemblies we received recently also have the stronger MA trigger return springs, and a trigger loop that has a different slope. The trigger bar has a red marking on the striker block lifter.
Grant is probably better informed on the new guns than I am...
-Randy
Yes mine has the red marks on the trigger bar and I think the sear spring had blue paint on it (I've already reassembled it). But it had a standard trigger return spring.
So now it has the Apex sear, FP block, trigger return spring.
I left everything else stock so far except for the sights and mag bases, I'm using the Arrendondo bases with SSS mag springs.
Robb Jensen
10-12-10, 14:38
Build date?
Here is how you tell the build date.
"Look at the lable on the box to the right of the serial# there is a 4 digit number this is you born on date 1st number represent the year of manufacture the last 3 digits is the day made mine is 7051 wich represents Feb 20, 2007"
The brass was collected 9-23-2010 I don't see the four digit numbers you're talking about.
The brass was collected 9-23-2010 I don't see the four digit numbers you're talking about.
Yeah i think it's next to the barcode now.
anyway yours is much newer.anyone have any idea when they started coming this way or how i can tell if i have the mass trigger parts?
I believe all the new pistols are being sent out with the larger MA sized sear spring and plunger. The trigger assemblies we received recently also have the stronger MA trigger return springs, and a trigger loop that has a different slope. The trigger bar has a red marking on the striker block lifter.
Great news. Wonder how long before we can purchase them in the parts supply chain?
This sounds good, I was wondering when they might implement the MA sear block across the line based on what I had been reading.
I called S&W today... They stated that the Pro's have been shipping with these MA sear blocks, etc. since early in the year. Of course, I have known customer service reps to be wrong a time or two....
I called S&W today... They stated that the Pro's have been shipping with these MA sear blocks, etc. since early in the year. Of course, I have known customer service reps to be wrong a time or two....
I'm doubtful about that. Mine bought in March wasn't severely failing to reset, just twice in 2K rds but . . . and I think Grant is pretty dialed in about S&W stuff and he predicted about a month back that in the Fall S&W would address more of the trigger issues so I think this is surely recent.
Could very well be... I did call them a few days ago to ask some questions, got a different guy, who it turned out had never heard of the dead trigger problem.......
Bowie Tactical
11-02-10, 07:27
There is a new sear housing coming from S&W that is to address this issue. A bigger spring with more power will be housed in this unit. This problem has been known for a while and has plagued box stock and custom M&P's erratically but enough to be a real problem. Some of us pistol smiths have seen alot of this and have been blamed for the dead trigger. S&W is aware of the problem and is addressing it very seriously. Like i said this is a problem even on new box stock guns. So stay tuned. S&W has been good about replacing problem springs in the past but has taken a better step by adding some size and power to the next spring.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts
There is a new sear housing coming from S&W that is to address this issue.
Great news. When will it be available and when can I buy 6 of them?
I had dead trigger issue with my M&P also. It was with a non-ma sear block and a modified sear. But my issue was caused because the trigger bar did not have enough inward bend to it and would not always reset under the sear. I added some bend and the issue went away
I received my M&P back from smith about 2 weeks ago. Have only got to put about 200 rounds thru it, but no issues. The trigger feels slightly heavier and has a stiffer reset.
I asked a contact I have, who took care of me. They installed a new sear housing block, bigger plunger and "red spring", they maintained my pro-sear.
My contact told me,this was not the MA parts, but an all new set up.
IIRC, he also said that some of these issues were linked to the new strikers, and it was most prevalent in the harder recoiling guns, like the .40 and .357
Either, way, S&W took care of it, and I'm pleased. Am working on getting the parts to retrofit my other custom shop tuned gun.
Bob
There is a new sear housing coming from S&W that is to address this issue. A bigger spring with more power will be housed in this unit. This problem has been known for a while and has plagued box stock and custom M&P's erratically but enough to be a real problem. Some of us pistol smiths have seen alot of this and have been blamed for the dead trigger. S&W is aware of the problem and is addressing it very seriously. Like i said this is a problem even on new box stock guns. So stay tuned. S&W has been good about replacing problem springs in the past but has taken a better step by adding some size and power to the next spring.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts
The superb customer service company S&W never addressed this in a straightforward manner with the numerous M&P owners who've contacted them about the dead triggers for several years (their stories abound on other boards) and now quietly starts upgrading guns. Other companies that failed to announce recalls and make public pronouncements about similiar quiet upgrades are routinely hammered. Is that not even a little ironic. :sarcastic:
This is really really great news. Having tested one for 2400 rounds, I didn't find this platform to be game changer many have but this change alone really upgrades it IMO. A little heavier PC trigger with a stronger reset and no chance for a dead trigger. Good stuff.
If you want to be safe and sure, I would think you would really want this upgrade.
Next up: delay the unlocking of the gun just a skosh. Esp the 5" models. ;)
Tennvol12345
11-03-10, 20:09
Count me amongst those who have or have had a dead trigger. Older MP9C with ~20K rounds through it. Installed a Apex DCAEK 3 weeks ago and today at the range I experienced several instances of a dead trigger. Gun is now taken out of the carry rotation until I can figure out what the hell is wrong with it.
Have not yet contacted Apex but will be tomorrow.
Count me amongst those who have or have had a dead trigger. Older MP9C with ~20K rounds through it. Installed a Apex DCAEK 3 weeks ago and today at the range I experienced several instances of a dead trigger. Gun is now taken out of the carry rotation until I can figure out what the hell is wrong with it.
Have not yet contacted Apex but will be tomorrow.
Contact Apex..I had 1 dead trigger with my FS9 with a Apex DCAEK installed.. pistol has probably around 2500 rnds through it.Randy offered to install a larger Mass. sear spring, which required enlarging the hole in the sear housing, for the larger sear spring. He did the machine work for free, I paid shipping, and for the parts, which were cheap ($2 or less I forget) I've put about 3-400 rounds through it, since I've gotten it back and so far, no problems I'm pretty sure the Mass. sear spring fix fix the dead trigger issue
Tennvol12345
11-03-10, 20:48
way ahead of you, sent a PM to Randy....
Randy will fix you up. Currently he has my 9c sear housing and is upgrading it to the MA setup.
He received it yesterday and shipped it out today. I also purchased the RAM, and he installed it into the housing too. :laugh:
Trvlngnrs
RogerinTPA
11-03-10, 22:39
Count me amongst those who have or have had a dead trigger. Older MP9C with ~20K rounds through it. Installed a Apex DCAEK 3 weeks ago and today at the range I experienced several instances of a dead trigger. Gun is now taken out of the carry rotation until I can figure out what the hell is wrong with it.
Have not yet contacted Apex but will be tomorrow.
I had 2 dead trigger incidents this weekend with a 3 year old M&P9c, with just over 9K rounds fired. Tap and rack solved the issues but I will have to send it back to S&W for repair and use my spare until it's fixed.
I had 2 dead trigger incidents this weekend with a 3 year old M&P9c, with just over 9K rounds fired. Tap and rack solved the issues but I will have to send it back to S&W for repair and use my spare until it's fixed.
I wont be getting an M&P until S&W gets this issue fixed.
I own two M&P9's, one full size and one compact, and have been oblivious to the dead trigger issue until just recently. I have been running DCAEK kits in both of them for most of 2010 and have been very happy with them both. That is, until two weeks ago. I dropped a RAM into my FS and began to experience the dead trigger on my first trip to the range. I had 4-5 occurrences within about 150 rounds. I have contacted APEX and they can fix it by modifying the sear block for $25.
I have a couple of questions, would S&W swap out the sear block, spring & plunger under warranty? If I send it in to S&W, should I remove the Apex parts before sending it in?
I own two M&P9's, one full size and one compact, and have been oblivious to the dead trigger issue until just recently. I have been running DCAEK kits in both of them for most of 2010 and have been very happy with them both. That is, until two weeks ago. I dropped a RAM into my FS and began to experience the dead trigger on my first trip to the range. I had 4-5 occurrences within about 150 rounds. I have contacted APEX and they can fix it by modifying the sear block for $25.
I have a couple of questions, would S&W swap out the sear block, spring & plunger under warranty? If I send it in to S&W, should I remove the Apex parts before sending it in?
They should. I would pull the Apex components just to be on the safe side.
C4
I own two M&P9's, one full size and one compact, and have been oblivious to the dead trigger issue until just recently. I have been running DCAEK kits in both of them for most of 2010 and have been very happy with them both. That is, until two weeks ago. I dropped a RAM into my FS and began to experience the dead trigger on my first trip to the range. I had 4-5 occurrences within about 150 rounds. I have contacted APEX and they can fix it by modifying the sear block for $25.
I have a couple of questions, would S&W swap out the sear block, spring & plunger under warranty? If I send it in to S&W, should I remove the Apex parts before sending it in?
I really doubt S&W will replace the sear block, particularly if you only have the problem with non-S&W parts installed. Now if it happened with S&W factory parts I'm sure they'd take care of you...
I had Apex install the larger sear spring and plunger in my 2 sear blocks, they did a great job and zero problems.
Hey all,
I'm having this problem with the Pistol Training version. Has anyone else had this problem with a PT version? Just wondering.
Tex
My M&P .40 full size only has about 500 rounds through it with no problems. I bought it @ 3 years ago. It has a APEX RAM and a factory M&P PRO sear a friend gave me after he bought the APEX sear. I bought it to compete with, but even with the trigger mods, I still liked my Glocks more. So it has stayed in the safe for about a year.
Today I broke it out for a range trip, I had two dead triggers in 50 rounds. I never heard of this until I experienced it today, then searched on the net.
Can I assume that since there have not been a lot of post on this, the problem is solved at the factory now?
Guess it is going to S&W for a fix...
My M&P .40 full size only has about 500 rounds through it with no problems. I bought it @ 3 years ago. It has a APEX RAM and a factory M&P PRO sear a friend gave me after he bought the APEX sear. I bought it to compete with, but even with the trigger mods, I still liked my Glocks more. So it has stayed in the safe for about a year.
Today I broke it out for a range trip, I had two dead triggers in 50 rounds. I never heard of this until I experienced it today, then searched on the net.
Can I assume that since there have not been a lot of post on this, the problem is solved at the factory now?
Guess it is going to S&W for a fix...
Yes, problem solved. Contact S&W for a replacement of your SHB.
C4
Hey all,
I'm having this problem with the Pistol Training version. Has anyone else had this problem with a PT version? Just wondering.
Tex
Yes, the PTC guns have exhibited this. I have seen three do this, mine is one of them.
Grant made an adjustment to mine in the Spring of 2010 which made a significant improvement. In the Summer of 2010 I finally sent it back to S&W and it has not failed to reset since.
This is one of my primary competition/instruction guns and it has seen well over 10k rounds since the trip back to New England.
ETA: Grant's adjustment to my gun was one made in the field (acutally a barn in a rain storm) with VERY limited tool availability, don't take my reply to mean he couldn't "fix it".
Yes, the PTC guns have exhibited this. I have seen three do this, mine is one of them.
Grant made an adjustment to mine in the Spring of 2010 which made a significant improvement. In the Summer of 2010 I finally sent it back to S&W and it has not failed to reset since.
This is one of my primary competition/instruction guns and it has seen well over 10k rounds since the trip back to New England.
ETA: Grant's adjustment to my gun was one made in the field (acutally a barn in a rain storm) with VERY limited tool availability, don't take my reply to mean he couldn't "fix it".
The PTC guns had the small sear plunger and plunger spring. There was no fixing the sear "flutter" issue and needed to go back to S&W for a new SHB.
C4
I experienced a dead trigger on a new 2012 test fire date M&P 9 with a APEX AEK trigger and DCEAK last weekend. Before installing the APEX parts I fired over 300 rounds in its stock configuration without issue.
Days later I installed a AEK trigger and a DCEAK kit (large spring). Took it back out to the range and had a dead trigger within 2-4 mags. The pistol was firing until the trigger went dead. I looked at it funny, made sure I let the trigger travel all the way forward and pulled again, nothing. I slowly opened up the action to reveal a live round. Checked the primer which showed no signs of being touched. Chambered another round and commenced firing again. Fired a additional 3 or so mags without issue.
I experienced a dead trigger on a new 2012 test fire date M&P 9 with a APEX AEK trigger and DCEAK last weekend. Before installing the APEX parts I fired over 300 rounds in its stock configuration without issue.
Days later I installed a AEK trigger and a DCEAK kit (large spring). Took it back out to the range and had a dead trigger within 2-4 mags. The pistol was firing until the trigger went dead. I looked at it funny, made sure I let the trigger travel all the way forward and pulled again, nothing. I slowly opened up the action to reveal a live round. Checked the primer which showed no signs of being touched. Chambered another round and commenced firing again. Fired a additional 3 or so mags without issue.
WTF? How is this still happpening on a recently manufactured M&P?
M&Ps now come with a new trigger bar (it's shorter and stamped with an "S") and it may not interface properly with the Apex hard sear.
WTF? How is this still happpening on a recently manufactured M&P?
Did you read his post? Didn't happen before he installed aftermarket stuff. In LE, wel call that a clue.
Could have accidentally installed something incorrectly, part coule be out of spec, etc.
I had this happen on my M&P 45. In my case the trigger could be pulled all the way back to the frame and then stop... then you could get it to fire if you really pulled hard on the trigger.
Ditched that APEX crap quick, Jack! Had to learn to shoot the shitty OEM trigger.
Then I sold the gun and went back to my old Glock.
Did you read his post? Didn't happen before he installed aftermarket stuff. In LE, wel call that a clue.
Could have accidentally installed something incorrectly, part coule be out of spec, etc.
This. My guess is that the loop in the trigger bar needs adjusted.
C4
I followed the Apex installation videos during the install. The trigger bar loop was adjusted and worked fine for several dry fires.
Since the dead trigger I removed the Apex sear and put the factory sear back in. Also ordered a new factory trigger bar assembly and might very well put the rest of the original parts back in.
The whole thing stinks. After putting a few mags through the stock M&P I was hooked and started selling off my perfectly good Glocks and accessories to fund switching over to the M&P line. I sink $150 into APEX parts and now have a pistol that can't be trusted. Oh well. I'll put the original parts back in and see how it goes.
My solution to the problem involves the use of the larger spring and plunger, incorporated into a new sear housing block that mechanically eliminates sear bounce altogether. In my mind, it shouldn't matter what sear you use. The bounce needs to be eliminated from the system.
-Randy
The sear housing block upgrade you guys did fixed my problem, thanks Randy!
I sink $150 into APEX parts and now have a pistol that can't be trusted.
Call Apex.
Hopefully the Apex parts wont be needed anymore, with the new crop of M&P's supposedly having improved triggers.
4DAIVI PAI2K5
09-23-12, 10:56
Anyone sent a stippled gun back in to S&W for the cure for this?
I followed the Apex installation videos during the install. The trigger bar loop was adjusted and worked fine for several dry fires.
Since the dead trigger I removed the Apex sear and put the factory sear back in. Also ordered a new factory trigger bar assembly and might very well put the rest of the original parts back in.
The whole thing stinks. After putting a few mags through the stock M&P I was hooked and started selling off my perfectly good Glocks and accessories to fund switching over to the M&P line. I sink $150 into APEX parts and now have a pistol that can't be trusted. Oh well. I'll put the original parts back in and see how it goes.
As someone that has installed metric tons of Apex parts in M&P, the issue you are seeing is one of two things:
1. Old trigger bar (look to see if it has the letter "S" stamped on it.
2. Old SHB (look to see if it has the small sear plunger).
If these two items check out, them make sure that you haven't either over opened the loop or didn't open it enough (look at how it engages the sear).
C4
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