View Full Version : I'd like to revisit.......
....this whole "limp wrist" (LW) thing with Glocks - if you'd please pardon my beating a mostly-dead horse. (Yes - I'm using the search function here and at other sites to get a history of the topic - but also would appreciate any more "recent" opinions and/or info.)
I'm getting to the point where I want to "simply" my life at all levels - including my weaponry. Yes - I have done very well shooting 1911s for four-plus decades, and my "heart" will always love them dearly. (Could you see the "emotion" coming through between the lines???:)
OTOH - the lack of an affirmative safety notwithstanding - there is just so much that Glock offers, and the G17s (3rd gen) have started sending enough rounds downrange that I'm starting to trust them:) I've torn into them - and they really ARE easier to wrench on than ol slabsides - and FAR less particular about parts interchangeability. Stated another way - while my "heart" may always love 1911s, my "brain" is 9/10s of the way to switching to a Glock as my primary weapon for training and, therefore, HD. (I'm stuck in Illinois - so no CC to worry about. Just need something to help me fight my way to the 6920:)
My one & only reservation is this limp wristing curse that keeps following Glocks. How much of a problem is it - really? At one end of the topic is - "if you don't shoot with a firm wrist, it certainly may happen." Others say it happens, but is an unacknowledged design quirk of the weapon system. I'm especially interested in the rate of LW in those who truly know how to shoot a pistol. At 6' 5" and 290# - I offer a good basic platform. Then, throw in 25 years of martial arts and defensive tactics teaching, i.e., after countless thousands of full power punches tothe heavy bag - I pretty much know how to lock a wrist and all associated parts lower down the body. OTOH - I also realize that there is a small possibility that I'll be injured, or shooting from a non-stable position.
FWIW - I have never had what you might call a LW problem with any of my 1911s (mostly Gunsite Service Pistols, or SA loadeds that have been worked on by the Gunsite smiths.) Part of my (probably unjustified) concern comes from the fact that I've been bitten by the "1911 Perfection" bug:):):):)
So - what say yee? Is this something to stay up nights worrying about, or simply a damn-the-torpedos and full speed ahead thing???? (Especially interested in hearing from trainers.)
Many thanks!
john
Limp-wristing isn't a Glock problem. It's a shooter problem.
Limp-wristing isn't a Glock problem. It's a shooter problem.
Agreed. However, why is it so commonly associated with Glocks, as compared to the remainder of the handgun domain???? (Not looking to argue - just for some answers:)
john
I have been training armed professionals for more than 15 years. I've worked with Glock pistols, particularly the 17 & 19 for almost 25 years.
I can honestly say that I have never had a pistol induced limp wrist malfunction.
I have tried to duplicate the problem by shooting with a very weak one handed grip. I have tried shooting it with just my thumb and middle finger holding the gun. I have even tried to shooting them while holding the gun upside down with a weak grip.
I would propose that "limp wristing" is not as real as most would say it is. More likely it is caused by anticipation/flinching, possibly combined with a weak hold on the shooter's part. The shooter anticipates the shot to such a degree that they actually start flinching early enough to create a shock absorber like affect with their hands and arms. I would also submit that limp wristing is often presented as the cause of a malfunction because it is convenient patsy.
I would suggest that you shoot the Glock pistol of your choice until you are comfortable. (1000 rounds or more) If you have done this already, did you experience any anticipation/flinching induced malfunctions during those trials? If not, you are GTG.
My recommendation would be that you vet your weapons and trust them to do their job. If it didn't malfunction for you due to operator error, then you trust that you and that pistol work well together. Sleep well and worry free.
A lot of people attribute their malfunctions to limp wristing due to "Glock Perfection" precluding any mechanical deficiency.
Not a jab at Glocks- I own 2, my wife owns 2, and I rely on mine daily as my duty and off duty guns. But when a weapons system is touted as being bombproof, people then automatically attribute failures to something that the user did or failed to do.
JMoore, I saw your sig line. I think Thucydides was talking about Illinois. ;)
Limp-wristing can occur with any semi-automatic pistol. The problem is easier to induce and exacerbated by the use of low powered ammunition combined with poor grip technique.
I would venture to say that anyone with a lifetime of shooting experience with a 1911 in .45ACP isn't going to have a grip problem shooting a polymer 9mm.
All my wife and I use for handguns over the last decade are glocks. She weighs 100 pounds soaking wet in clothes and has never limp wristed one of our glocks. I prefer a handgun without a "safety" as long as it's in a quality holster and your careful reholstering your fine. It's one less thing to forget under stress. I can't count how many times I've missed a shot hunting due to safeties on longguns that I don't shoot all the time except for the hunt:sad:.
Our family looked at all the options in handguns and found glock fitted our needs best. Not to say it fits everyone or will always be that way. Good luck finding what fits your needs.
I'm not a trainer just average joe
glock is really teh first polymer framed handgun that became wildly popular. The lightweight lower does depend a bit more on the shooter to hold it in place so the slide can do its recoil activation thing. It's just an inertia thing. steel frame is heavier, so it resists forces better.
that said, i've never managed to limp wrist a glock. light grip with my left hand even.
It's not a big issue in my opinion. I've found glocks to very reliable, easy to use and work on, and inexpensive to operate. It's an incredibly rugged and elegant design.
I have limp wristed a glock 17 and a beretta 92fs multiple times. This happened the very first two times that I went shooting. It turns out that I was holding the pistol completely improperly. I come from an extensive target archery backround where you don't hold grip the bow because it torques it, and the grip hand is at an angle, leaving the grip not surrounded by your hand like in pistol shooting...hard to explain. Anyways, I think that "limp wrist" is more limp grip/bad grip than anything having to do with the wrist. 5k rounds through glocks later, I haven't even had a jam. I really would not worry about it. If you want, you can try to induce the limp wrist yourself and you will see that it is hard to do intentionally.
OP,
You mentioned the 3rd Gen G17. Between that and the G19, they don't get much more reliable.
I like skyugo's point about the polymer frame underneath the steel slide. Probably exacerbated in the G22s due to the higher slide velocity.
I have been training armed professionals for more than 15 years. I've worked with Glock pistols, particularly the 17 & 19 for almost 25 years.
I can honestly say that I have never had a pistol induced limp wrist malfunction.
I have tried to duplicate the problem by shooting with a very weak one handed grip. I have tried shooting it with just my thumb and middle finger holding the gun. I have even tried to shooting them while holding the gun upside down with a weak grip.
I would propose that "limp wristing" is not as real as most would say it is. More likely it is caused by anticipation/flinching, possibly combined with a weak hold on the shooter's part. The shooter anticipates the shot to such a degree that they actually start flinching early enough to create a shock absorber like affect with their hands and arms. I would also submit that limp wristing is often presented as the cause of a malfunction because it is convenient patsy.
I would suggest that you shoot the Glock pistol of your choice until you are comfortable. (1000 rounds or more) If you have done this already, did you experience any anticipation/flinching induced malfunctions during those trials? If not, you are GTG.
My recommendation would be that you vet your weapons and trust them to do their job. If it didn't malfunction for you due to operator error, then you trust that you and that pistol work well together. Sleep well and worry free.
Thanks! Exactly the type of feedback I was looking for.
Actually - I've had both a G17 and an M&P9FS for the last year or two. No LW problems - just learning to transition to the new trigger format. FWIW - I shoot the Glock significantly better than the M&P. Will be putting the Apex sear in the Smith in the not-too-distant future - we'll see what that does. I'm mostly through a shipment of 3k 9mm. When that is finished - I'll sit back and perhaps make a decision on what I'll transition to. That 9mm certainly is cheaper than the .45!!!!
Thanks again.
john
operator81
10-02-10, 14:25
Agreed. However, why is it so commonly associated with Glocks, as compared to the remainder of the handgun domain???? (Not looking to argue - just for some answers:)
john
My take: The Glock is a VERY popular, inexpensive pistol that appeals to novices due to price, popularity, reliability and ease of use/maintenance. A wander over to the glocktalk forums or youtube will reveal just that. Additionally, the .40 Glocks are very popular do to their service with Police agencies and the perceived need for "stopping power."
These novices will fire the pistol without any training. In doing this, the pistol is generally fired with a weak and improper grip and stance. When they begin suffering malfunctions, they blame the gun rather then looking in the mirror. Any semi auto pistol will experience a LW related malfunction if you the shooter let it. I feel the Glock seems to get a bad rap due to its popularity with the novice crowd who is shooting it. Put a competent or professional shooter behind a Glock and the issues magically disappear.
Agreed. However, why is it so commonly associated with Glocks, as compared to the remainder of the handgun domain???? (Not looking to argue - just for some answers:)
john
I think it's because there are a LOT of Glocks out there. Glocks abound, so limp wristed Glocks abound.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61472
I don't consider it much problem at all. It took an extreme low and light grip with min power ammo to foul Gen 3 or Gen 4 while same grip and NATO would generally run.
During recent match, to save time of moving to right side of barricade, I stayed on the left side of barricade and inside shooter box to engage last target on the right. To do so, I had to bend my wrist 60-70 degrees to the right and this worked fine to deliver two good hits from my Gen 4 G17 with original 01 spring set - with WWB 115gr.
Not a problem I am in the least concerned about.
SW-Shooter
10-02-10, 16:56
The limp wristing can be cured with about $100.00 in parts.
operator81
10-02-10, 17:01
The limp wristing can be cured with about $100.00 in parts.
Such as?
totally agree it is not a gun but shooter problem- nothing to fix on the gun due to this, and that it is not exclusively a glock problem. if 80% of the police agnecies in the US were using hk's we'd be talknig about the hk limp wrist problem instead
I used to own two G19s. My wife was very good at limp wristing them. We have not had any trouble with the M&Ps or CZs. As much as I tried to limp wrist the Glocks I never could. I guess it depends on the person. My hypothesis is that Glocks are more prone to limp wrist due to the grip.
The limp wristing can be cured with about $100.00 in parts.
i'd be stunned if you could list any aftermarket parts to make a glock MORE reliable. :confused:
100 in training though... that would be money well spent.
totally agree it is not a gun but shooter problem- nothing to fix on the gun due to this, and that it is not exclusively a glock problem. if 80% of the police agnecies in the US were using hk's we'd be talknig about the hk limp wrist problem instead
and HK would have more money than god :o
The limp wristing can be cured with about $100.00 in parts.
Which would be?
Everyone beat me to it, but it's been put well. Glocks are sold in huge numbers and often to first time shooters due to popularity, price, and capacity. If there was a rare but serious issue, we'd have heard about it 10x more than we do the "limp wrist" Glocks.
If you are coming from a 1911, I wouldn't worry. I still can't go to the range with my Berettas or a 1911 and not have a friend or fellow shooter limp wrist the guns. It is far from exclusive to Glocks. I would say the Glock makes it near impossible to limp wrist. I've never seen it happen, and I have intentionally tried to induce the stoppage before with no luck. So I have confirmed to myself that both the glock and M&P will fire support hand only, limp wristed/low grip, tilted in various directions in the event I lose use of a hand.
I wouldn't worry about reliability at all in Glocks. For CCW and range use, I tend to favor my M&P, but in the event of any duty use I'd grab a G19 and switch my EOtech to an Aimpoint on my AR - just for the long track record of reliability of these 2 names.
Right down the center of my lane here.
We issue G17s at my job, with some G19s over the past couple of years. We have about 320 shooters (of various shapes and sizes from 5'1 to 6'9 and a buck o'five to over 300lbs) carrying Glock 9mms, with a bunch of personal G26s thrown in.
When we first transitioned to Glocks in 2006 we went with the G22, after our guns proved to be unreliable I started testing the G17 as an alternative. I had many years of shooting Glocks off and on, and at that time I owned a couple of Glock 9mms and five Glocks in .40, so I had some basis of experience even though we carried S&W 3rd gen 9mms since 1989.
After the G22s crapped the bed on us due to the frame redesign in the winter of 2005-2006 I wanted to test the 9mms to be sure they didn't also have new issues. They did not, in fact I found the new guns to be somewhat more reliable than the older style guns when lighter impulse ammo or a "limp wrist" hold was used.
The older Glock 17s would sometimes have an issue with ammo such was WWB 115gr, or a poor grip, the newer guns ran with a noticeably greater level of reliability even with these issues. I found the newer G17s to cycle even with very low impulse ammo such as CCI snake shot loads, and that Aguila "IQ" crap.
As our rangemaster I oversaw personally all of the firearms training completed by every one of our officers. I kept close track of malfs and any gun issues. Simply put, we didn't have any that I couldn't ID as bad ammo (grossly out of spec stuff from the factory such as folded over brass at the case mouth, etc.) or obvious shooter error (like the old revolver grip with the weak hand thumb over the strong hand, or physically blocking the slide during retention shooting drills, etc.).
During 2008 I kept very close track of our fall in-service as we fired up and then re-issued our duty ammo;
320ish shooters during those classes, firing more Glocks than that (running from memory well over 100 guns extra, we allow personal Glocks, BUGs, etc.), 52 rounds of 124gr +P Gold Dot per duty gun, various amounts through the other guns, lets call it 20,000 rounds fired since I would order just above that yearly for duty ammo, net result was zero malfunctions.
The malfs we would get even with cheaper practice ammo were so seldom it was an event. Folks would talk about a Glock having a "jam" like they had just seen Bigfoot, it was something they had heard about, but had never seen personally, and weren't sure they believed in it.
Long story short; Glock 9mms do not have a "limp wrist" issue. Anyone who says so is, IMHO, completely full of crap.
platoonDaddy
10-04-10, 06:09
Various weapons used for his test and G17C really was bad. Of course all 'test' are open to but you didn't do that, you didn't do this and on and on. Just presenting it as another take.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsewsolPyBU
Here is one for the regular G17. It also failed. I was never able to limp wrist my G19 but like I said before, my wife was a pro at it. She has never limp wrist our M&P or CZ 75B. I really do think Glocks have issues with limp wrist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA&feature=related
Crow Hunter
10-04-10, 14:35
I have done it 3 times. (All in one session too.:sarcastic:) I got stovepipes while doing weak hand drills, I didn't have any stronghand only.
It was a G19 that had approximately 5,000 rounds down the pipe including a training class in which approximately 1,200 rds had been fired in 2 days in the mud. I had not cleaned/relubed the weapon since the class and I was firing 115 WWB (no, it wasn't my carry gun). I was also getting beaned in the head with brass at the same time.
Took the gun apart, cleaned out the old goop, put in fresh goop and changed the recoil spring. Went back out with the remaining ammo in the box and didn't have a problem from there.
In my experience "limpwristing" comes from an under lubed, dirty gun firing cheap low powered ammo, with less than ideal grip.
(Yes, you DO have to clean and lube a Glock:big_boss:)
In my experience, it's something you have to work at. I work for a large metropolitan Police Department that currently issues Glock G-22's. These replaced our G-17's. We had more issues when we initially switched over to the G-17's from our revolvers (S&W M-10's and M-64's) I personally have never had one and those officers that did were able to correct the problem with a firmer grip and a better idea of what was going on while the pistol recoiled in their hands. I don't think you will have the problem and if your wife pays attention to what she is doing when shooting, neither will she. My .02
My wife would often LW a Gen 3 Glock 19, but only with light loads (115gr). I switched her to 147gr and she hasn't has a single LW since. I think the lighter loads were a bit snappy for her.
I have never been able to LW that 19, regardless of load, even when trying.
I wouldn't hesitate to get a Glock.
GermanSynergy
10-05-10, 14:21
The limp wristing can be cured with about $100.00 in parts.
What are you talking about?
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