View Full Version : Caracal pistols. From the hots sands of Middle East
to the green forests of France.
Just received my new toys, large quantity of ammo to be delivered within days.Stay tuned for the results of the test.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/EdsCaracalF-1.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/EdsCaracalC-1.jpg
EzGoingKev
10-05-10, 05:54
Any possibility of getting some pics of it stripped down?
No one will be able to complain about not being able to get a high enough grip on that gun.
Any possibility of getting some pics of it stripped down?
Will do. days are becoming shorter lately.. :D
I had a lot of fun defeating the rate of digital cameras shooting in burst between 3.7 and 5.2 pictures per second while staying in the A zone of an IPSC target @12 meters.
You never forget some things once you learned them.
I did have some serious reliabilty problems with a F and a C, Failure to feed, Failure to fire, erratic ejection and slide stop was locking before magazines were empty. 18 incidents with the 155 first rounds using NATO ammo, FN mfg then I switched to Sellier & Bellot, CBC (MagTech) and MFS commercial ammo and I had less problem.
I identified the causes, I will take 3 more F pistols to the range tomorrow, I have a competition during the weekend. I'll take the risk using one of them for Vitesse Militaire event ( Service pistol CISM Rapid Fire )
I'll make a more complete report later.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_5146-Halfsecond-1.jpg
variablebinary
10-08-10, 08:51
Think it sits low enough in the hand...
SWATcop556
10-08-10, 08:57
Looks like a flare gun......
rubberneck
10-08-10, 09:05
I identified the causes
Would you care to share what those causes were? Thanks.
In order to avoid being legally involved, I will not disclose everything. It is already impossible for me to access one forum after I posted about the reliability issue.
I will tweak one of the pistols I have in order to check my findings, I know this will take the pistol out of the warranty so I will have it officially deactivated after my tests and I will use it as a handling/demonstration sample/paperweight.
One very easy thing to check is to use NATO ammo or powerful defensive rounds in the C version, the speed of the slide's move and the impact at the most rearward position makes the slide stop pop up, locking the slide with a magazine that is not empty. Solution is easy, stronger slide stop spring.
That is the only point I will expose here for the time being.
rubberneck
10-08-10, 11:01
In order to avoid being legally involved, I will not disclose everything. It is already impossible for me to access one forum after I posted about the reliability issue.
I will tweak one of the pistols I have in order to check my findings, I know this will take the pistol out of the warranty so I will have it officially deactivated after my tests and I will use it as a handling/demonstration sample/paperweight.
One very easy thing to check is to use NATO ammo or powerful defensive rounds in the C version, the speed of the slide's move and the impact at the most rearward position makes the slide stop pop up, locking the slide with a magazine that is not empty. Solution is easy, stronger slide stop spring.
That is the only point I will expose here for the time being.
You must have really different laws where you come from. Here truth is an absolute defense. If you have issues and talk about them honestly I can't imagine getting sued for writing about it on an internet message board and I know for a fact you won't be banned from this site for giving an honest review of the product. People talk about issues they have with their new guns all the time and I can't recall a single poster being banned for it. Also I am just curious why you would de-mil a pistol just because you voided the warranty? What am I missing here?
rubberneck
10-08-10, 11:04
FWIW having a stronger slide stop spring will have the opposite effect as they are designed to push the silde stop up not down. Having a stronger recoil spring will slow the slide down.
I did not encounter any malfunctions or problems when tested Caracal F. But it was only some less than 200 rounds of shooting with "civi" (S&B) ammo.
For me big issue with this gun is rear sight. It is way to narrow. Actually sights become more useful when shooting with buttstock attached. But hey! This is pistol, not carbine! Something should be done here, especially that rear sight is not removable item.
Second is related to magazines that have sharp and protruding element for mag catch. Every fast magazine change - wounded index finger. Plus forget of fast magazine deployment from soft pouch or pocket - it will for sure catch the fabric.
Third is hard working slide stop. Very hard to disengage. But for me magazine slam "auto slide close" worked, provided I had trigger finger resting on slide stop at the time (I'm lefty).
Other than that gun seemed well made with high quality manufacturing. Ergonomy, while "different" at start is fast to get used to. HK P30 it is not, but fits hand nice. Maybe trigger too "rubber" for my like with weight around 6lbs (but weight is not a problem).
Summary - have it flaws but build from a scratch, from newcomer in country with not gun making tradition - I'm impressed.
FWIW having a stronger slide stop spring will have the opposite effect as they are designed to push the silde stop up not down. Having a stronger recoil spring will slow the slide down.
Oh really?
The magazine plate when mag is empty pushes the slide stop upward, the slide stop spring keeps it down..
A stronger recoil spring can slow a bit a slide but not enough unless it becomes nearly impossible to operate the slide unless your name is Hulk.
You must have really different laws where you come from. Here truth is an absolute defense. If you have issues and talk about them honestly I can't imagine getting sued for writing about it on an internet message board and I know for a fact you won't be banned from this site for giving an honest review of the product. People talk about issues they have with their new guns all the time and I can't recall a single poster being banned for it. Also I am just curious why you would de-mil a pistol just because you voided the warranty? What am I missing here?
Because if I sell it after I tinkered with it, it voids the warranty and if the buyer has a problem with the pistol even unrelated to the tweaking I did , I am legally liable.
Demilling one will allow me to have it me for demonstrations and handling without having to justify at length why I have it with me even if I do have a professional card showing who I am. It is not fireable but all other functions can be demonstrated, disassembling etc.
I am not in USA, I live in Frogland, Yurp.
I can't already access one site after I posted about the reliability issue..
Some of the malfunctions I had:
(All tests with premium quality ammo that did not produce any malfunction in Glocks, SIGs, P 99s, Steyr M9s etc..CBC, MFS, SK, FN, S&B)
Failure to feed (extractor pushes the round sideways because the head case does not slide properly into place behind extractor)
Failure to fire (rounds were ignited with the second blow)
Erratic ejection, early or late release of spent case
Slide locking back with magazine not empty, slide stop jumps when slide impacts on most rearward position and locks slide
Failure to feed (extractor pushes the round sideways because the head case does not slide properly into place behind extractor)
Failure to fire (rounds were ignited with the second blow)
Erratic ejection, early or late release of spent case
Slide locking back with magazine not empty, slide stop jumps when slide impacts on most rearward position and locks slide
This is disappointing. It seems like everyone who has tested this gun has had problems. How much do they cost in your town, Edmond? Are they popular?
What happened to this gun being in the market? I haven't heard anything from CaracalUSA and their site is still down. Last I heard in another website it was posted that they where probably going to be selling by early September. Anyone know of any problems?
Alpha Sierra
10-09-10, 08:45
Pistol sounds like a POS
CaracalUSA
10-09-10, 09:29
Friends, We will not be involved in an internet banter fest but I will tell you that we pulled twenty five pistols at random from our shipment of pistols and have encountered NO serious issues. There was one common cosmetic flaw that we will be correcting here concerning a small casting flash on the grip insert ( minor issue that will be corrected before our next shipment). ALL of our pistols have had excellent accuracy as of yet. The only ammunition that has caused a problem has been the Silver Bear 145 gr. hollow point which does not work in my G34 or my Colt subgun? We have fired a variety of common FMJ from Wal-mart to most of the high performance hollow point available. I can not speak for the concerns that Edmond has had because we have not seen them? We have two samples that have over 10,000 rounds through them each and ey thtravel to pistol matches almost every weekend and have had ZERO issues except for the Silver Bear? Our pistols have been fired by a wide range of shooters from the novice to the Master Class shooter with NO issues.
There are several large publications that have received samples or will be receiving samples soon. I'm sure you will see them in several articles around the first of the year. We will be releasing our pistols soon for public consumption. We have to finish up some business concerns an tie up a few loose ends with the factory FIRST. We will not release these until we have everything prepared and processes in place on our end. Please feel free to contact me at any time with concerns troy@caracalusa.com .
Thanks,
Troy Sellars
Director of Operation
Caracal USA
P.S. To answer one question we are the US Distributor for Caracal. We are an office and wear hose facility and not open to the public.
gtmtnbiker98
10-09-10, 10:32
Pistol sounds like a POS
Have to agree.
Have to agree.
Specially for 750 Euros. That is hitting the FNP tactical, USP tactical, TRP or two M&Ps from Grant for example. I hope Edmond bought a bad example because according to Bubits this is his dream gun. I am still excited to try one of these when they become available.
CaracalUSA, do you have an estimate date for public release?
Pistol sounds like a POS
It is not. The revered 1911 may be dubbed a POS as well if you go this way.
These pistols have a lot of potential but some things have to be ironed out.
I like them, just not love at first sight ;-)
Sights are one of those things that are not up to the accuracy of the barrel,
these pistols deserve better than that when using them for more than defensive use at short distance..
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_5354.jpg
Some people make fun of me when she is shooting with such tactical protective equipment (Bollé goggles resisting to high speed grenade fragments)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Shooting/SMGColt635.jpg
just because I do not want to see my loved ones with damaged eyes or hearing.
Thanks to my Rodenstock specialty tempered glasses.
It cost an arm but it worths the cost when using a milling machine or having spent case coming straight to the eye like today.
I should have stopped firing when I received the second case in a row on the forehead.
I knew the ejection was quite erratic but that one had a less erratic ejection than the others.
I think the serie I received may be one of the first batches.
it bears Merkel USA, Trussville, Alabama engraved inside.
My overall opinion is good about them and so is the feeling of those who used them today, I got some orders.
but with such a price tag here, it is better not to give a chance to the competition to tarnish the reputation of a product.
They did that already before these pistols reached our shores.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_5364.jpg
First magazine (18 rounds), 9mm NATO ammo, FN Mfg, Rapid Fire, 25 m, isoceles stance. Caracal F , SN BM 300.
Yes, I know! There's one miss on top right.That was the only one of the day, one too much.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/First18roundseverBM300.jpg
Specially for 750 Euros. That is hitting the FNP tactical, USP tactical, TRP or two M&Ps from Grant for example. I hope Edmond bought a bad example because according to Bubits this is his dream gun. I am still excited to try one of these when they become available.
CaracalUSA, do you have an estimate date for public release?
I shot a lot today, I have a sore thumb from presssing the slide release (Ok, slide stop)
The C has seen now 500 rounds through it and I had only 2 failures for the last 100 rounds (locked slide when not empty and unlocked slide with empty mag)
I finished with 147 grains ammo and had no problem.
For the 3 F pistols, I did use Wilson Combat Ultimate lube as well and I had"only" 6 failures through 750 rounds, none for the last 80 rounds through each of them except erratic ejection that finally broke my glasses after hitting twice my forehead and much more my white shirt ( Note to self, when you are not shooting your favorite 10mm that has a tuned ejector, do not wear anything white)
Looks like they needed all a break in.
I am still less satisfied than with my P 99 or my Steyr M9 for the time being.
Most dissatisfaction comes from the rear sight not up to the accuracy of the pistol.
Alpha Sierra
10-09-10, 15:51
I'm gonna pass on any products made in muslim countries.
Oh, and for those who will make the stupid comment that I should buy no petroleum products I have two answers:
1) Not all petroleum products sold in the USA come from muslim countries
2) I have no way of knowing where the crude used to make whatever I am buying comes from.
If I knew #2 I would buy accordingly as well.
GermanSynergy
10-09-10, 16:17
Interesting.
I'm wondering how well they'll sell in Europe, given that the continent is awash in Glocks, P99's and other proven designs.
Friends, We will not be involved in an internet banter fest but I will tell you that we pulled twenty five pistols at random from our shipment of pistols and have encountered NO serious issues. There was one common cosmetic flaw that we will be correcting here concerning a small casting flash on the grip insert ( minor issue that will be corrected before our next shipment). ALL of our pistols have had excellent accuracy as of yet. The only ammunition that has caused a problem has been the Silver Bear 145 gr. hollow point which does not work in my G34 or my Colt subgun? We have fired a variety of common FMJ from Wal-mart to most of the high performance hollow point available. I can not speak for the concerns that Edmond has had because we have not seen them? We have two samples that have over 10,000 rounds through them each and ey thtravel to pistol matches almost every weekend and have had ZERO issues except for the Silver Bear? Our pistols have been fired by a wide range of shooters from the novice to the Master Class shooter with NO issues.
There are several large publications that have received samples or will be receiving samples soon. I'm sure you will see them in several articles around the first of the year. We will be releasing our pistols soon for public consumption. We have to finish up some business concerns an tie up a few loose ends with the factory FIRST. We will not release these until we have everything prepared and processes in place on our end. Please feel free to contact me at any time with concerns troy@caracalusa.com .
Thanks,
Troy Sellars
Director of Operation
Caracal USA
P.S. To answer one question we are the US Distributor for Caracal. We are an office and wear hose facility and not open to the public.
Well, we have Edmond, who really appears to be giving them more than the benefit of the doubt in his shooting trials, reporting reliability that is somewhat worse than that acceptable in cheap, POS Taurus handguns.
1 malf per 100 rounds is completely unacceptable in a modern production handgun.
I suggest you guys become pro-active and fix that shit, tuit suit.
I am inclined to like the gun based on what I've seen of its ergos, but it's a crowded market and you need to be close to perfect or really cheap to make it.
CaracalUSA
10-09-10, 22:10
You quoted us? What are we supposed to do? We didn't build the pistols and he didn't buy them from us? I told what we have seen, No issues out of our fifty sample pistols? I can't explain his problems?
Interesting.
I'm wondering how well they'll sell in Europe, given that the continent is awash in Glocks, P99's and other proven designs.
I would love to know this. Can you give us some information on this Edmond? How is the aftermarket in Europe as well?
I am sure this handgun will have many fans due to being created by Bubits.
1 malf per 100 rounds is completely unacceptable in a modern production handgun.
I suggest you guys become pro-active and fix that shit, tuit suit.
agreed..
i wouldn't dare release it on the US market until it's near perfect. should be able to pick up any random pistol from production and fire at least 1000 rounds with no stoppages.
anything less than that and people are going to quickly dub it a POS. especially in the 700 dollar price range.
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 07:45
Sky, You are 100% correct!!! That is why we are beating the sample pistols while we are waiting to tie up loose ends. I was a full time LEO for ten years and have been a reserve for the last six. I know what a service pistol has to do. One of the owners is former LEO and a Ranger and he feels the same way we do about the reliability of a pistol. I personally carry a compact with night sights and I have over 500 rounds through it without issue. I'm sorry but we have not seen the issues Edmond has?
Bolt_Overide
10-10-10, 07:51
You quoted us? What are we supposed to do? We didn't build the pistols and he didn't buy them from us? I told what we have seen, No issues out of our fifty sample pistols? I can't explain his problems?
Well I can tell you what you were not supposed to do, for me at least.
That would be to not get so damn defensive about someone reporting issues with products you're hawking. As one of the results of that is to dissuade me from being remotely interested in anything made, imported or sold by your company.
You might want to take into account that youre selling mechanical products, and as such things fail. No QC program is 100%, and a much better response would have been to find out why edmond is having issues with these weapons, not try to distance yourself from the issue.
An Undocumented Worker
10-10-10, 08:26
Well I can tell you what you were not supposed to do, for me at least.
That would be to not get so damn defensive about someone reporting issues with products you're hawking. As one of the results of that is to dissuade me from being remotely interested in anything made, imported or sold by your company.
You might want to take into account that youre selling mechanical products, and as such things fail. No QC program is 100%, and a much better response would have been to find out why edmond is having issues with these weapons, not try to distance yourself from the issue.
Edmond lives in a different continent from Caracal USA, there really is nothing they can do for Ed. And from what I have read Ed has made no attempt at contacting his distributor or Caracal.
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 08:32
Bolt, I was responding to 120mm not Edmond. I have been in e-mail contact with Edmond and have suggested an avenue for resolution but Caracal USA can be of no assistance to him in France? I can assure you if he was in the US I would have resolved his issues ASAP!
Thanks, Troy
Bolt_Overide
10-10-10, 09:41
While reality may indeed be far from what I perceived, it is still what I perceived based on your response.
Also, someone speaking on behalf of a company should know how to use a question mark.
Note the difference in the two sentences:
a) I don't know why you think I'm supposed to be able to use a question mark?
b) I don't know why you think I'm supposed to be able to use a question mark.
Response a) is incorrect. Response b) is correct.
It's called professionalism. It goes along with calm, non-defensive responses to questions and product challenges.
eternal24k
10-10-10, 12:33
I am going to just wait for some reports from within the US, after MSAR I don't hop on the first run of products anyways
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 13:58
120mm, The question marks are used in my posts to show what inflection would be in my voice. More over in an asking tone. An internet post is not a formal letter and does not required to be punctuated as such.
Thanks guys.
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 13:58
I am going to just wait for some reports from within the US, after MSAR I don't hop on the first run of products anyways
24K, I don't blame you one bit!
Troy,
Is the Caracal going to be released before the end of 2010? Do you know if there are any plans on making three dot sights for the Caracal? How much bigger or smaller is the FS to the M&P9?
Thank you for your time.
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 16:21
We hope to release it before the first of Nov. Yes, we are working to change the rear sight to a traditional dove tail sight. That way we have endless possibilities. We are going to the factory this week so I hope to have MANY more answers after that. I don't have an M&P to compare it with.
Thanks, Troy
We hope to release it before the first of Nov. Yes, we are working to change the rear sight to a traditional dove tail sight. That way we have endless possibilities. We are going to the factory this week so I hope to have MANY more answers after that. I don't have an M&P to compare it with.
Thanks, Troy
Thank you for the information Troy. Please keep us updated when you get new information. I am very interested in the Caracal.
120mm, The question marks are used in my posts to show what inflection would be in my voice. More over in an asking tone. An internet post is not a formal letter and does not required to be punctuated as such.
Thanks guys.
1. I started out being interested in the Caracal pistol.
2. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to PR and proper written communications, and it is obvious that you do not, evidenced by the fact that you think that as a representative of your company you can inject bullshit internet "rules" (you are wrong, btw, about using question marks to note inflection. Unless, of course you are semi-literate, making fun of Canadians, or a Valley Girl) and EVER be less than professional in interactions either internal or external to your company and succeed. You have also just gone on record as being defensive and unprofessional on this internet board. You cannot afford to do that.
3. As the US importer/representative of Caracal, you will be held responsible for much, much more than you think you are. Prepare several canned and appropriate responses for issues like those that have been brought up by Edmond, or be prepared to fail due to the viral nature of the internet.
4. Before you get all butt-hurt again, please note that I am offering you damned good advice for free. Ask yourself why someone would do that.
CaracalUSA
10-10-10, 21:33
dvdlpzus, I will try to provide as much information as possible. We are not here to sell pistols or argue!!! I am here to provide information.We will keep you posted.
Thanks, Troy
For what it's worth I have a compact and full sized for use in an upcoming article in SWAT (don't ask when it will be published--I have no idea as I just got the guns yesterday and have just started shooting them for evaluation).
Anyway, we ran about 100-150 rounds of mixed ammo through each gun today and encountered no malfunctions, nor did myself nor the other shooter get dinged in the head or face with brass.
This isn't to say that the original poster might not have experienced issues, only a reflection of two examples of the guns imported into the US. His may have been from a different batch, different date, bad ammo, etc.
I've just started the testing and intend to fire it much more as well as have other people do so and use a variety of different ammo.
I really don't want to comment any more, otherwise I would be scooping my own material before it winds up in print.
GermanSynergy
10-14-10, 21:29
I'd be interested in trying one when they become available.
Fired another few hundred rounds through each gun without any issues.
Wish I could say the same for my S&W M&P9 . . .:sad:
Allow yourself to feel unburdened by any feeling of responsibility to do so, as there are a couple of tens of thousands of others who can say that for their M&Ps. Given the size of the population, one gun and a "few hundred rounds" makes a trend it does not. "A few hundred rounds," in the idiom of the modern weapon, is a SitRep or a round count notation in a notebook and not the basis for a conclusion (other that what you can and cannot say, in this instance, which in no way impacts the reliability or lack thereof of the gun) or comparison. "A few thousand rounds" is the point at which one can reliably compare and contrast, except in the case of significant flaws that stick out like a turd in a punch bowl.
Troy, trying to induce voice inflection in print is a disconnect that can and will get one's message lost in a flawed medium. Ask a question if it's a question, make a statement if it's a statement. Articulate your "voice" nuances with typed, focused, specific verbiage, otherwise you will end up with folks cherry-picking what you type instead of getting the thrust of your thoughts.
Consider: does one wish to successfully represent their company and sell guns, or does one want to be pedantic and fight a grammar battle when clearly unarmed with the right knowledge to engage in that fight?
If the first, stop trying to be clever and type in professional English. If the second, you're doing your company a disservice and should probably be replaced before you alienate some potential customer base. Look around at the submissions of other manufacturers and distributors that frequent the board. You may or may not notice a divergence in style from your own. Hint: theirs treat the internet nearly as if it's an official correspondence because...it is. They're representing their business, and it's the freakin' 21st century; internet-as-business-tool is a modern fact of life.
I'm not trying to compare and contrast the Caracal with the M&P. I have over 7k rounds through my M&P9 and only a few hundred through each Caracal in the early part of an ongoing evaluation. I was just adding my two cents worth on the Caracal since there are not many in circulation in the US, and mentioned my disappointment in my M&P9 because it is pressing on my mind.
My whole M&P magazine problem is mentioned in this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=51142
Other issues that I've had with the gun are mentioned in other M&P threads.
And i tought the Glock was ugly, this one takes the whole f...ing cake, altough, it would be intresting to feel how the recoil is, the bore axis is as low as the P7's, plus im sure it must do pretty well in sandy enviroments.
And i tought the Glock was ugly, this one takes the whole f...ing cake, altough, it would be intresting to feel how the recoil is, the bore axis is as low as the P7's, plus im sure it must do pretty well in sandy enviroments.
Low bore axis is urban-myth ;)
OK, maybe not entirelly, but try to tell to Jerry Miculek that he is not supposed to shoot fast and accurate due to revolver high bore axis. And yes, I had P7 so I know how it shoots :)
From my limited experience (personally less than 100 round from Caracal F) recoil is comparable to Glock, P99 or P30. Maybe little sharper than in P30. Muzzle flip at about same level. Problem was that it was not going back from recoil on target - but I'm sure this was only becouse I had not shoot enought rounds to adapt to this gun.
Littlelebowski
10-17-10, 17:26
Edmond, many thanks for sharing and hope you continue to contribute to the collective knowledge on this site.
I finely tuned the extractor by ramping the lower inside face in order for the case head to slide smoothly in place and I modified the angle of the ejector face (I wish I had more material to start with), the modified pistol now runs like a swiss clock.
Edmond, many thanks for sharing and hope you continue to contribute to the collective knowledge on this site.
You're welcome.
I will start to react to some words indirectly directed to me.
First, the ejection angle and extractor's problems have been well known for quite a while.
Some pictures I have been shown this morning clearly demontrate that spent brass flyes just over the shooters head, very close to the head..
Second is that many people claim they shot Caracal pistols but quite surprisingly in an era where people even record themselves going to toilet, not much pictures posted except the manufacturer's brochure and site pictures.
Third, I post clearly visible serial numbers with various pistols and ammo brands as well hence I am not BSing, I have these pistols, I shoot them, I lend them to other shooters to have their feedback. No hearsay. just the facts, Ma'am.
And finally, do not make the mistake to think I do not like these pistols.
I believe it will be a successful product on a competitive market. Just depends on the manufacturer's attitude and professionalism that will or will not go down the chain.
Second is that many people claim they shot Caracal pistols but quite surprisingly in an era where people even record themselves going to toilet, not much pictures posted except the manufacturer's brochure and site pictures.
I'm not of this kind, who records all his life, but...
Me doing accuracy test.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00577.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00583.jpg
Caracal with stock and front grip. Use of magazine release it somewhat harder in this setup.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00606.jpg
Caracal set in box.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00640.jpg
Magazine with dreaded "finger cutting" catch interface (under fingertip).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00607.jpg
You happy now???
BTW I have also 30+min of video shooting Caracal, that I will not post here. But I revieved it for ejecting pattern. Looks like it is square to the shooter and some 30-40 degrees up.
You happy now???
BTW I have also 30+min of video shooting Caracal, that I will not post here. But I revieved it for ejecting pattern. Looks like it is square to the shooter and some 30-40 degrees up.
I dunno, I think these are Photoshopped... I've seen a number of 'shops in my time and can tell by the pixels. :laugh:
Thanks for sharing your findings! That magazine catch looks like it could do some bad things to gloves let alone fingers.
I'm not of this kind, who records all his life, but...
Me doing accuracy test.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00577.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00583.jpg
Caracal with stock and front grip. Use of magazine release it somewhat harder in this setup.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00606.jpg
Caracal set in box.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00640.jpg
Magazine with dreaded "finger cutting" catch interface (under fingertip).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00607.jpg
You happy now???
BTW I have also 30+min of video shooting Caracal, that I will not post here. But I revieved it for ejecting pattern. Looks like it is square to the shooter and some 30-40 degrees up.
Square to the shooter, what do you mean?
I notice only that none shows a round has been fired or is being fired, no smoke, no recoiling gun, no slide going into battery or moving rearward, no flying brass and some strangely out of focus zones of the pictures.
Me, not happy. Same player, play again..
These are pictures of Caracal pistols actually being owned and shot
Please click on thumbnails.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_First18roundseverBM300.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=First18roundseverBM300.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5364.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5364.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5354.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5354.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5306.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5306.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5078.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5078.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5146-Halfsecond.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5146-Halfsecond.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5138.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5138.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5140.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5140.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5139.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5139.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5137.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5137.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5136.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5136.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_First18roundseverBM300.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=First18roundseverBM300.jpg)
Square to the shooter, what do you mean?
This mean square. 90 degrees from aiming, to the right.
Yes, there is no smoke or flying casings. Sorry, my Photoshop abilities do not reach that far :sarcastic:
And also my friend holding camera in front of muzzle had something against adding smoke, fire, bullets and cases to the mix.
So you see pictures not from "catalogue" and still not happy. Suit yourself. Not worth my time anyway.
ETA: Really not worth bothering, but what the hell. Out of curiosity what you will complain about next. Nice flamewar forming.
Double tap (this time I hold camera and I know how to get focus):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00596.jpg
Shooting with stock (same as above):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Caracal/DSC00630.jpg
So far I have about 400 rounds through each gun and no evidence of malfunctions or cases hitting anyone in the head as they are being ejected. A friend who shot it commented that the cases were wacking him in the head and I watched him shoot. He is a big guy and was not all the way into the booth at the range, so what happened were the cases were sometimes bouncing off the walls of the booth and hitting him. This is not the same as having the cases ejecting straight into his head.
Second is that many people claim they shot Caracal pistols but quite surprisingly in an era where people even record themselves going to toilet, not much pictures posted except the manufacturer's brochure and site pictures.
Some people don't feel a need to post pictures of everything and actually think the world has gone too far with posting pictures and twitter and facebook.
Here is an obligatory photo:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/caracaldog.jpg
Hey Ed, nice Boxer! Whats his name?:D
You know he's a Spanish Alano and you know his name. You've seen him enough.
The dog is fake. I can see that. There is no trace of breath visible in front plus he is strangely out of focus! :big_boss:
90° to the right, I would like these 5 pistols I have now tested doing that.
You clearly see on my pictures that the ejected spent cases are climbing u vertically with an angle toward the zone above my head and falling at my back. That is the reason one can get so many of them on the picture from a camera being on my right side and the other shooter holding the camera was not afraid of receiving any flying brass.
During the military rapid fire event on an open range, no shooter received my brass, spectators behind me did.
Some ammo from the same brand (RUAG Geco) and lot that was used during the Milipol Paris demo will be delivered tomorrow, we'll have some more testing.
Clearly not 90° on my pictures, not 90° on pictures I have seen taken during the Milipol show.
We are indeed in the age of information.
Click on thumbnails
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5078.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5078.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5146-Halfsecond.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5146-Halfsecond.jpg)
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5138.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5138.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5140.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5140.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5139.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5139.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5137.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5137.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5136.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5136.jpg)http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/th_IMG_5364.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/?action=view¤t=IMG_5364.jpg)
Unlike you, I never tried to accuse any of posters here for lying. Your Caracal shoots like that. OK. I believe. Other one you tried on MiliPol shoots same. OK. I believe.
But the one I shot at EHC2010 does not have problems you described. There were 3 of us shooting if for some extended time with purpose of testing and evaluating it and did not have any problems. So either pistols you shot both have some issue, later corrected by manufacturer (however one that I shot was not new, actually looked quite used, with manufacture date 09 12) or maybe it's something with your grip and/or shooting stance. I've seen some strange thing happen with even most reliable guns because of grip or stance.
I had HK P7M13 that used to bombard my forehead, but when I changed grip slightly, it stopped. Funny enough no one shooting same gun had such problem. It just had something against me. Maybe your Caracals have a grudge against you?
I reviewed video material once again, closely. Ejecting pattern seem to be between 90 and 120 degrees to the right (0 at muzzle direction). Actually neither of us had close look at that, because we did not feel anything strange with ejecting (unlike MP-446 that puts cases like 10m up in the air).
Anyway, HK it is not, but I do not find Caracal to be a bad pistol, neither I experienced this kind of problems you described.
Howgh.
EOT
Unlike you, I never tried to accuse any of posters here for lying. Your Caracal shoots like that. OK. I believe. Other one you tried on MiliPol shoots same. OK. I believe.
But the one I shot at EHC2010 does not have problems you described. There were 3 of us shooting if for some extended time with purpose of testing and evaluating it and did not have any problems. So either pistols you shot both have some issue, later corrected by manufacturer (however one that I shot was not new, actually looked quite used, with manufacture date 09 12) or maybe it's something with your grip and/or shooting stance. I've seen some strange thing happen with even most reliable guns because of grip or stance.
I had HK P7M13 that used to bombard my forehead, but when I changed grip slightly, it stopped. Funny enough no one shooting same gun had such problem. It just had something against me. Maybe your Caracals have a grudge against you?
I reviewed video material once again, closely. Ejecting pattern seem to be between 90 and 120 degrees to the right (0 at muzzle direction). Actually neither of us had close look at that, because we did not feel anything strange with ejecting (unlike MP-446 that puts cases like 10m up in the air).
Anyway, HK it is not, but I do not find Caracal to be a bad pistol, neither I experienced this kind of problems you described.
Howgh.
EOT
First , let's be clear I never said someone was lying.
Second, I never said I tested one during Milipol.
Third, before telling me there is something wrong with my grip, let me tell you that you make an ass of U and Me.
I even tried to provoke jams during my tests with a limp wrist since I have a girl friend who is the only one I know able to jam a SIG P 210 because of the way she handles it.
The Caracal pistols went through 100 rounds (two pistols tested) with flying colors.
Well, I learned that pistols may have something against someone, I better beware since two of them are besides me now, I better lock them in the safe?
Now, back to serious business, please.
PS: thanks for the information, the lot I have received has been manufactured in May (for the C) and November of 2009 (for the F)
Do yours wear the Merkel USA engraved inside?
PS2: H&K is not a reference for me, I consider a weapon by itself.
Thanks for sharing your findings! That magazine catch looks like it could do some bad things to gloves let alone fingers.
Not really a problem, I used 10 magazines loaded with two rounds each to practice speed relaoding and I did not scratch my finger.
I loved the ambidextrous mag release that allows me to use my trigger finger, I have to keep it busy when I switch from revolver to pistol. :laugh:
Unlike you, I never tried to accuse any of posters here for lying. Your Caracal shoots like that. OK. I believe. Other one you tried on MiliPol shoots same. OK. I believe.
But the one I shot at EHC2010 does not have problems you described. There were 3 of us shooting if for some extended time with purpose of testing and evaluating it and did not have any problems. So either pistols you shot both have some issue, later corrected by manufacturer (however one that I shot was not new, actually looked quite used, with manufacture date 09 12) or maybe it's something with your grip and/or shooting stance. I've seen some strange thing happen with even most reliable guns because of grip or stance.
I had HK P7M13 that used to bombard my forehead, but when I changed grip slightly, it stopped. Funny enough no one shooting same gun had such problem. It just had something against me. Maybe your Caracals have a grudge against you?
I reviewed video material once again, closely. Ejecting pattern seem to be between 90 and 120 degrees to the right (0 at muzzle direction). Actually neither of us had close look at that, because we did not feel anything strange with ejecting (unlike MP-446 that puts cases like 10m up in the air).
Anyway, HK it is not, but I do not find Caracal to be a bad pistol, neither I experienced this kind of problems you described.
Howgh.
EOT
EHC 2010 picture , one of
http://www.practicalhandgun.com/images/stories/Article_images_09/EHCCara1web.jpg
Ejected cases with the same pattern seen on my pictures, straight toward the shooter..
:rolleyes:
You tube video, Paris demo, still frame, 5,25 to 5.27 in the video..
One of...
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/525.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/T025.jpg
I'm getting much more intrested in the gun as this thread goes by, it's like a bastard child from a steyr m9a1 and a P99, then that child got a 1st gen glock pregnant but she had an abortion or something:sarcastic:...Naa, kidding aside, it looks like a good design, i've seen the videos and it looks pretty good. And, like with every other gun out there it takes time to be tested, adopted and liked, SPECIALLY in the US (remember the m&p??), let the design prove for it self, you might get surprised. Same happened to Glock, now everybody likes them, why?, cuz they stopped with the visual critisisims and strted shooting the actual gun, identifying its flaws and advantages, learning the grip and trigger, and now look, almost everyone has owned or owns a Glock.
Let the gun be for a while, it might grow on you one day, altough, if they dont fix the "EXTREME UGLYNESS" problem, like NOW!, it will take more than "a while"...:sarcastic:
Today's tests. Geco ammunition will be used.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_6166-1024.jpg
variablebinary
11-04-10, 20:55
I haven't held or fired one of these, but the grip looks very comfy, and that low bore should make it very smooth shooting. At a glance it looks like a CZ and XD love child.
It will take a couple of years before it proves itself, but I hope it comes to the USA. More options are better than less. I'm not going to knock it, because I have no experience with it.
Couple of things, the finish doesn't look that great from pics. Hopefully the USA model will ship with a better finish (Melonite), and sights that are Novak or compatible with another major brand like SIG, XD, or Glock, that way users can easily choose night sights or whatever.
Lastly, a longer barrel on the F would be nice.
Any news Troy? We miss you here.
Check yours for greasy traces left by the clamping tool used to handle the slide in CNC machinery and not degreased before coating...
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_6288.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Caracal/IMG_6287.jpg
FYI, gents. The batch of F pistols deleivered to France has been entirely recalled.
Bolt_Overide
09-10-11, 07:00
so the short version is, as predicted, they are a complete pile of shit...
so the short version is, as predicted, they are a complete pile of shit...
:D HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAH!!!
Was there a reason given?
How are the pistols that are in the states holding up?
Was there a reason given?
How are the pistols that are in the states holding up?
No problems with the ones in the states, no with the one I have.
nobody knows
09-11-11, 06:50
That thing is ugly as sin, but it might end up being a great pistol given the company cares to compete in the USA. Or it could end up being a $750 high point, that's not as reliable as the $100 beast. I do wish the company good luck, but I'm also not expecting this to be a glock/HK killer ether.
I'd consider one if they had 10 round mags for NY. They should go for about $525 new to get any market share.
so the short version is, as predicted, they are a complete pile of shit...
Not according to people who own or shoot them (that dont have an agenda).
Whats your experience with them?
Nephrology
09-11-11, 18:07
Well it seems clear that there is one thing the Caracal will do reliably - get the whole internet's panties in a twist!
FWIW having a stronger slide stop spring will have the opposite effect as they are designed to push the silde stop up not down. Having a stronger recoil spring will slow the slide down.
doesn't the magazine follower push the slide stop up?
Bolt_Overide
09-11-11, 19:16
Not according to people who own or shoot them (that dont have an agenda).
Whats your experience with them?
my experience with them is the following:
1) watching a rep from the US importer fail to take ownership of initial issues with them.
2) watching you post pics of one with a shitty finish, and state that its not an isolated incident.
3) watching you post that an entire imported batch was recalled.
4) Conluding, from the available info, that its a pile of shit.
The concept may be good, the ergos may be great, it may have awesome potential. But the execution doomed it to shitdom.
my experience with them is the following:
1) watching a rep from the US importer fail to take ownership of initial issues with them.
What initial issues was there with them? I am not aware of any. I had two of the first ones that I put over 3K rounds through and did not experience any significant issues.
How many have rounds have you put through them, Bolt_Override?
2) watching you post pics of one with a shitty finish, and state that its not an isolated incident.
3) watching you post that an entire imported batch was recalled.
According to the poster Edmund, the full-sized Caracal has been recalled in France, not the US. However, Edmund has some personal issues with the company itself, Caracal in the UAE, since they rebuked his offer for a business relationship. But that's a story for another day.
spamsammich
09-15-11, 06:04
I found the rear sight to be very difficult to use. The narrow taper of the sight from base to top gives the illusion of a very narrow gap. Even when I picked up the front sight early, I had some trouble getting it to line up when I pressed out. This may be a matter of training, but I would prefer not to re-invent the wheel since all of my guns have a plain black sight with some sort of big dot front.
I found the beaver tail to be either too short or the 90 degree transition needs some smoothing out. This is the same issue I had with the Chiappa Rhino, the beaver tail would jam into my thumb knuckle and after about 50 rounds it became quite painful to shoot.
Lastly, the grip became uncomfortable after about 50 rounds because it came to a rather sharp V shape in the palm of my hand. It felt like squeezing the upper part of an axe handle after a while. I did like the trigger and the relative simplicity of the moving parts compared to the Steyr or FN.
Oh yeah, I did not care for the mag release placement, shape, or the protective ridge around it AT ALL.
my experience with them is the following:
1) watching a rep from the US importer fail to take ownership of initial issues with them.
2) watching you post pics of one with a shitty finish, and state that its not an isolated incident.
3) watching you post that an entire imported batch was recalled.
4) Conluding, from the available info, that its a pile of shit.
The concept may be good, the ergos may be great, it may have awesome potential. But the execution doomed it to shitdom.
You are in right field while everyone else is at the football game.
1. What "US importer failed to take ownership of initial issues"?
1A. What issues?
2. I haven't posted pictures of anything with regards to a "shitty finish"
2A. I haven't stated anything is an isolated instance
3. I haven't posted a damn thing about "an entire batch being recalled".
4. Are you sure you didnt reach your conclusion from a biased poster, whose agenda is obvious? Thats rhetorical by the way. Its funny, I know Ed L. personally, I have fired the Caracals he has/had in his possession, I dint find them to be a bad pistol at all. Then again, neither did Larry Vickers.
As for your silly comments about the concept, ergos, potential being good, but the line being relegated to "shitdom", I have asked you previously, as has another poster, what is your experience with the platform?
My Caracal C arrived. Installed a Viridian C5L to it
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/db1233aa.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/5aa6fbe3.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/9a18790d.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/b5718c7b.jpg
Preferred to have the slide in Hard Chrome finish and to have the smith work on a little modification on how the Viridian C5L would be installed
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/3317c9c4.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/9268f82f.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/c00ff2b6.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/07b76305.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/98b56c17.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/2a675c4e.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/380e7aeb.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/KevlarSix/Pistol/957cbb8c.jpg
http://www.caracalforum.com/index.php
7913v
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