View Full Version : New Daniel Defense LAV rifle...
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzNh3ubGWG0&feature=player_embedded
Looks like a nice setup.
^Agreed. Interesting spot to mount the light. Wonder why he prefers that location.
^Agreed. Interesting spot to mount the light. Wonder why he prefers that location.
Search around here and you will plenty of information on the 12 o'clock light mounting.
Looks like a pretty nice stick. Wonder what the price will be?
^Agreed. Interesting spot to mount the light. Wonder why he prefers that location.
That location allows a shadow-free beam of light in line with the sights. When shooting from around cover this location ensures the light is also away from your cover where it will not blind you, rather than having it off to one side where it requires more exposure or may cause light to splash back if you don't get it out far enough.
Nice stick. Bad script.
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-10, 16:46
In the last news letter Mr. Vickers sent out he hinted to the fact that DD might offer a carbine that was confirgured by him and fully endorsed. That speaks volumes about DD's product.
Limited Edition to only 250 rifles, wonder how much?
^Agreed. Interesting spot to mount the light. Wonder why he prefers that location.
Slicing the pie...
Not very flattering camera work.
I'm with Plato on this one.
thopkins22
10-05-10, 17:04
^Agreed. Interesting spot to mount the light. Wonder why he prefers that location.
It's the way to be if your setup allows. Barrel shadow, skinnier profile, allows your hand to be way out on the hand guards without having to come back to activate your light etc....
Some things have changed on this carbine, but not the light.
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr130/thopkins22/100_0697.jpg
xbmxracerx
10-05-10, 17:11
I approve this message! Larry Vickers saying Wazzzzuuuupppp was priceless :laugh:
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzNh3ubGWG0&feature=player_embedded
Looks like a nice setup.
I really wish my bonus was here now so I could buy one. I guess I will just have to settle for the DD M4v3 I planned on buying closer to the holidays.
Not just LAV but 'the LAV'.
He needs to watch out lest someone gets him that in chrome to hang around his neck.:sarcastic:
DocHolliday01
10-05-10, 17:51
Search around here and you will plenty of information on the 12 o'clock light mounting.
Looks like a pretty nice stick. Wonder what the price will be?
Over on Lightfighter someone stated about 2200 for the gun and about 3100 as a package, Retail.
Slinger646
10-05-10, 17:57
Wow...
I've got about 1700 in mine as it sits....with basically the same components minus the I-Mod...I'm not doing to deny it, the LAV theory had a lot to do with my choice equipment and its set-up.....
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i68/slinger646/Guns/DDM4/IMG_3618.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DD-Vickers.JPG
I had the opportunity to handle the pre-production rifle a couple months ago. It is nice. LAV showed it to the class, lots of oohs and ahhs.
justin_247
10-05-10, 18:14
Looks like they're making up for the extra weight of the RIS II rail by using a lightweight barrel. Of course, this is just an assumption and I could be completely wrong.
Interesting how LAV is sticking with a carbine-length gas system, as well. I assume he does so for training purposes, ie, train with what you'd fight with.
Very nice setup - lots of BCM, TangoDown, DD, VLTOR, BFG, Magpul, Surefire, and Aimpoint goodness!
Not very flattering camera work.
This post could obviously almost only be attributed to you. However I also don't like the moving while looking from below angle either, too MTV.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DD-Vickers.JPG
I had the opportunity to handle the pre-production rifle a couple months ago. It is nice. LAV showed it to the class, lots of oohs and ahhs.
Just curios, what is dictating the optic position on these? This one and the one shown in the video both have the T1 mounted towards the rear of the upper.
Im sure they have their reasons but since it's limited, it wouldve been cool if it were a 16 midlength instead of a carbine, with a RISII Middy FSP exclusive to this run of rifles.
On top of the benefits of a midlength, from a business standpoint, it would make for a truly limited carbine that you cannot replicate on a build. Just my 2 cents. Im sure it's a great rifle nonetheless.
Between this and the EAG unit from BCM, it's gotten extremely easy for use to point new users in a very good direction off the bat.
I still wonder if they'll come out with an OmegaX version wearing MagPul furniture.
RAM Engineer
10-05-10, 19:33
Im sure they have their reasons but since it's limited, it wouldve been cool if it were a 16 midlength instead of a carbine, with a RISII Middy FSP exclusive to this run of rifles.
On top of the benefits of a midlength, from a business standpoint, it would make for a truly limited carbine that you cannot replicate on a build. Just my 2 cents. Im sure it's a great rifle nonetheless.
Looks like they're making up for the extra weight of the RIS II rail by using a lightweight barrel. Of course, this is just an assumption and I could be completely wrong.
Interesting how LAV is sticking with a carbine-length gas system, as well. I assume he does so for training purposes, ie, train with what you'd fight with.
Very nice setup - lots of BCM, TangoDown, DD, VLTOR, BFG, Magpul, Surefire, and Aimpoint goodness!
You can't mount a light at 12 o'clock on a midlength gun unless you use a rail mounted front sight, which brings it's own set of drawbacks.
You can't mount a light at 12 o'clock on a midlength gun unless you use a rail mounted front sight, which brings it's own set of drawbacks.
Not exactly true. You can get an extended mid-length rail with a FSB cut to allow the FSB to fit through the rail. Many manufacturers make these. I had one on my old Sabre M5.
Not just LAV but 'the LAV'.
He needs to watch out lest someone gets him that in chrome to hang around his neck.:sarcastic:
That would be ****ing classic...:jester:
Just curios, what is dictating the optic position on these? This one and the one shown in the video both have the T1 mounted towards the rear of the upper.
Larry's preference. The carbine pictured is the DD prototype per the post from Sam.
There's no written rules where the optics should be mounted. Personal preference dictates placement. Lately, there's a shift into locating the optics closer to the rear sight. Supposedly, it allows wider field of vision, especially with the small T1/H1 size sights. There was a long dissertation by Erik Lund several months ago.
BTW, the gun in the video should be the same gun as the one that Larry showed us in August (pictured).
RAM Engineer
10-05-10, 20:39
Not exactly true. You can get an extended mid-length rail with a FSB cut to allow the FSB to fit through the rail. Many manufacturers make these. I had one on my old Sabre M5.
I've never seen one. Can you provide a link? Thanks.
thopkins22
10-05-10, 20:46
Daniel Defense makes the 12.0 FSPM, but there's still not top rail in front of the front sight base, and if there were, I believe it would be too far out for most users.
I think the best bet in that scenario is a 10:30/11:00 mounted Scout/E-Series/G2L, or a 3:00/6:00 mounted light with a tape switch on the 12:00 rail.
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-10, 21:16
You can't mount a light at 12 o'clock on a midlength gun unless you use a rail mounted front sight, which brings it's own set of drawbacks.
What drawbacks does this particular setup create? I'm looking heavly at the V5 and doing this setup with a DD fixed front and a SF X300.
I just visited the DD factory a couple weeks ago. I was on my way through town and called about an issue with my DD M4, set up almost exactly as the LAV.
I was looking for some advice, maybe a RMA # to send it back in but the Customer Service guy, Larry Stanley, said sure, why don't you just drop it off. I didn't hesitate...
I signed in and was issued a numbered visitor's tag and the "security dude" took me and my rifle back to meet Larry in his work area. He immediately dropped what he was working on and started checking things out, and found my charging handle was slightly out of spec. He replaced this with a new one.
He also noticed that I had more marks on the left feed ramp than the right and set about polishing it right there while I waited. I brought with me two of the Pmags that had been giving me trouble so he took these, loaded them with 20 rounds apiece and went out and test fired the gun. I've since fired the gun on my own range and my issues seem to have been taken care of.
He then asked me if I had any time and I said sure, so he took me on a pretty detailed personal tour of the facility. I met about 4 or 5 of the people you can see in that video though I don't remember any names.
to be sure, this was an impressive facility but the thing that I was most impressed with was the people I met. everyone I met, even the "security dude", who never let me move an inch without an escort, was very cool.
I still love my BCM carbines but I've got a very warm spot in my heart for my DD M4, and it's because of this type of customer care.
and no, LAV wasn't there...
Bulldog1967
10-05-10, 23:02
This post could obviously almost only be attributed to you. However I also don't like the moving while looking from below angle either, too MTV.
Being a professional cameraman, I agree with him. :D
There's no written rules where the optics should be mounted. Personal preference dictates placement. Lately, there's a shift into locating the optics closer to the rear sight. Supposedly, it allows wider field of vision, especially with the small T1/H1 size sights. There was a long dissertation by Erik Lund several months ago.
BTW, the gun in the video should be the same gun as the one that Larry showed us in August (pictured).
The wider field of vision is understandable. What was the logic behind the previous shift in moving the optics further forward? (Besides the craze with mounting FTS 3-4x magnifiers).
ChicagoTex
10-06-10, 05:04
The wider field of vision is understandable. What was the logic behind the previous shift in moving the optics further forward? (Besides the craze with mounting FTS 3-4x magnifiers).
Further forward was about the trade-off of being able to see more around and outside of the optic (bring it too close and you get tunnel-vision). You've gotta remember, the Aimpoint H-1/T-1 only has a 2.5" tube, whereas "full-size" Aimpoints have a 3.5" and EOTechs are even wider than that, gives you plenty of room outside the dot, but still inside the optic when you mount it forward. On the Mini-Aimpoints you have to bring it further back to achieve a similar effect, but since there's less optic to see around, you come out about the same.
Magic_Salad0892
10-06-10, 05:27
I just can't dig this gun.
16''. Carbine gas. Vltor stock. Not too hot on front sight towers either.
Sorry.
They should market their midlengths, or CQBRs more.
ForTehNguyen
10-06-10, 08:19
damn, that really the price? While it wont have the authenticool limited edition marks and laser etching, you can build a clone of this cheaply if you wanted.
MSRP price. They seemed to indicate that it was only through them (DD) so MSRP=what you pay. I hope I was told wrong and these get to some dealers, $3163 is just an awful lot, but I still want one.
I just can't dig this gun.
16''. Carbine gas. Vltor stock. Not too hot on front sight towers either.
Sorry.
They should market their midlengths, or CQBRs more.
Contact Daniel Defense, maybe you can get them to market a Magic_Salad signature edition.
They could call it the "Salad Shooter",I'm sure they'll fly of the shelves.:lol:
Bob
The wider field of vision is understandable. What was the logic behind the previous shift in moving the optics further forward? (Besides the craze with mounting FTS 3-4x magnifiers).
Also, Larry is cross eye dominant. Not sure that has a lick of anything to do with his choice of mounting position, but it might.
Mounting it forward helped balance on my guns, which is why I liked the older cantilever mounts from KAC, GG&G, and LaRue.
I'm using the T1 now in a DD mount, and it's so light as to not make a difference for balance.
I signed in and was issued a numbered visitor's tag and the "security dude" took me and my rifle back to meet Larry in his work area. He immediately dropped what he was working on and started checking things out, and found my charging handle was slightly out of spec. He replaced this with a new one.
He also noticed that I had more marks on the left feed ramp than the right and set about polishing it right there while I waited. I brought with me two of the Pmags that had been giving me trouble so he took these, loaded them with 20 rounds apiece and went out and test fired the gun. I've since fired the gun on my own range and my issues seem to have been taken care of.
He then asked me if I had any time and I said sure, so he took me on a pretty detailed personal tour of the facility. I met about 4 or 5 of the people you can see in that video though I don't remember any names.
to be sure, this was an impressive facility but the thing that I was most impressed with was the people I met. everyone I met, even the "security dude", who never let me move an inch without an escort, was very cool.
I still love my BCM carbines but I've got a very warm spot in my heart for my DD M4, and it's because of this type of customer care.
Great information. Companies with such a quality product that do business this way are truly top notch and deserve their good name.
Thomas M-4
10-06-10, 08:54
I just can't dig this gun.
16''. Carbine gas. Vltor stock. Not too hot on front sight towers either.
Sorry.
They should market their midlengths, or CQBRs more.
The rifle is set up for pure function The fixed iron sight with the lower 1/3 cowitness is the best way to run a RDS , the light at the 12'o clock position throws less shadow and is better shooting over barricades , the BCM charging handle well nuff said.
The only thing I would have is an 14.5'' option on the barrel length.
Thats an awesome stick. Daniel Defense is a great company, one of the few today that I have dealt with that still understands true customer service and good business. Now if DD would only make a 7.62 Nato Battle rifle...
My dreams would be answered.
The video is worth it for no other reason than LAV quoting movie lines. :D
The gun setup is really the best of any Manufacturer to date. It uses some of the highest quality products on the market without being "flashy" or over done IMHO.
C4
It's cool seeing the CHF machine doin it's thing.
Good looking rifle but a bit expensive for my tastes. Its well set up though.
Contact Daniel Defense, maybe you can get them to market a Magic_Salad signature edition.
They could call it the "Salad Shooter",I'm sure they'll fly of the shelves.:lol:
Bob
:sarcastic:
one of the things that was shown to me while I was there was a machine that was yet to be installed. I was told it was for making 1:9 twist barrels. when I asked why, he said because the consumer wants them for use with the typically used 55 gr. bullets.
that didn't make sense to me, given the recent trend AWAY from 1:9 and I told him I "hoped" the machine was actually a 1:8 and gave him my reasons.
it didn't occur to me till just now that maybe the machine was not to produce barrels for DD. seeing how they have a new larger facility and viable trained workforce, maybe they'll be producing barrels for other builders.
this is all just speculation as we didn't have any more conversation about it, however, the machine was NOT one of the big hammer forgers that currently makes their barrels...
ForTehNguyen
10-06-10, 12:11
a lot of AR manufacturers source hammer forge barrels from DD. That hammer forge machine isnt cheap, very few companies have it.
a lot of AR manufacturers source hammer forge barrels from DD. That hammer forge machine isnt cheap, very few companies have it.
yes but the machine I saw was NOT a hammer forge.
Moose-Knuckle
10-06-10, 14:59
I emailed DD yesterday...
Thank you for your interest in Daniel Defense and our products. Our Limited Edition Vickers Tactical Carbine is $3163 and includes all of the accessories shown on the video. We are preparing to build these and are accepting pre orders. If you would like to order one, please give us a call.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
Military Sales Representative
866-554-4867 Ext. 3251 Office
912-856-9736 Cell
912-851-3248 Fax
www.DanielDefense.com
www.DDM4.com
Nothing against DD but I plan on just buying a V3 or V5 light weight and adding my own BCM CH and SF X300. Probably upgrade to a Magpul CTR and MIAD and an Aimpoint micro and call it a day for less.
Larry Vickers
10-06-10, 15:29
Guys we scratched our heads a long time on this rifle as it is very difficult to do anything new and original in todays AR market
This is the setup we decided upon and we decide to make it a limited edition - couple reasons; 1) So hopefully the guns will retain some resale value and 2) It keeps open the option of doing a different configuration down the road
It is pricy - and frankly you can setup a similar DD gun for less money - but it does have the collector angle and it is the first DD rifle to come standard with a RIS II in black - up to now something of a collectors item
In addition when you MSRP items like the X300 and the Aimpoint Micro the retail price jumps bigtime - I would say if you really want one shop around and see what kind of deal you can get
If not pick a DD carbine and deck it out how you want - that's the best thing about the times we live in is the AR market is like Burger King - have it your way
be safe
LAV
Guys we scratched our heads a long time on this rifle as it is very difficult to do anything new and original in todays AR market
The proactive refinement of practicality, reliability and effectiveness is all that matters.
Thanks for the feedback.
Moose-Knuckle
10-06-10, 16:11
Guys we scratched our heads a long time on this rifle as it is very difficult to do anything new and original in todays AR market
This is the setup we decided upon and we decide to make it a limited edition - couple reasons; 1) So hopefully the guns will retain some resale value and 2) It keeps open the option of doing a different configuration down the road
It is pricy - and frankly you can setup a similar DD gun for less money - but it does have the collector angle and it is the first DD rifle to come standard with a RIS II in black - up to now something of a collectors item
In addition when you MSRP items like the X300 and the Aimpoint Micro the retail price jumps bigtime - I would say if you really want one shop around and see what kind of deal you can get
If not pick a DD carbine and deck it out how you want - that's the best thing about the times we live in is the AR market is like Burger King - have it your way
be safe
LAV
These are good days for sure for the AR owner, with the DD LAV and the BCM EAG carbines one can't go wrong. I didn't notice from the video that was a RIS II! Nice. . .
xbmxracerx
10-06-10, 16:25
Don't waste the extra $$$ on the CTR. The standard MOE stock is fine. While at a gun show before coming out here to Michigan, I was playing around with the CTR locked and unlocked and the play was no different between the CTR and my stock MOE.
I emailed DD yesterday...
Nothing against DD but I plan on just buying a V3 or V5 light weight and adding my own BCM CH and SF X300. Probably upgrade to a Magpul CTR and MIAD and an Aimpoint micro and call it a day for less.
ChicagoTex
10-06-10, 16:44
Don't waste the extra $$$ on the CTR. The standard MOE stock is fine. While at a gun show before coming out here to Michigan, I was playing around with the CTR locked and unlocked and the play was no different between the CTR and my stock MOE.
1. the CTR's friction lock's value varies from one extension tube to another. A nice, tight RE doesn't need it, but some looser ones see some benefit from the friction lock (case in point, I'm running a CTR on a commercial RE that I got a killer deal on, the friction lock makes a difference for me)
2. The CTR also has QD sling mounts. Granted, to some people this doesn't matter, but it's a factor a lot of folks seem to overlook when comparing the CTR to the MOE.
What I'm really saying, in a very long winded way, is I agree the CTR is superfluous IF you're running a quality mil-spec receiver extension AND you don't care about QD at the butt of the rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
10-06-10, 17:52
Thread drift. . .
I have a CTR on a VLTOR tube in my Colt. It is solid, my VLTOR mod stock rattled around like an air-soft import. It won't effect function one bit but it is my personal preferance to have the friction lock.
xbmxracerx
10-06-10, 19:30
I hear ya Tex but my V3 came with the rear QD attachment already and I'm running a sp sling. My buffer tube is mil-spec and I tried the CTR on it and it was the same. It's all good though. If I did upgrade for any reason, it would be to the ACS so I could keep the rear QD.
1. the CTR's friction lock's value varies from one extension tube to another. A nice, tight RE doesn't need it, but some looser ones see some benefit from the friction lock (case in point, I'm running a CTR on a commercial RE that I got a killer deal on, the friction lock makes a difference for me)
2. The CTR also has QD sling mounts. Granted, to some people this doesn't matter, but it's a factor a lot of folks seem to overlook when comparing the CTR to the MOE.
What I'm really saying, in a very long winded way, is I agree the CTR is superfluous IF you're running a quality mil-spec receiver extension AND you don't care about QD at the butt of the rifle.
Pretty much what my rifle is, except I used a SOCOM BCM upper under my M4A1 RIS II FSP and asurefire 556k brake. I sort of want one of these now just because the SOCOM upper is pretty damn heavy.
If you figure in the additional expense of the RIS II, Aimpoint, SF FH & SF X300, that price is right about where I figured it would be. Much like the BCM EAG rifle and the KAC SR15 MD, they are a decent value IF the gun is configured exactly how you want it and you factor in the collector's value for rifles like the DD and KAC. My $0.02, the LAV rifle is just about the perfect configuration for a carbine.
Magic_Salad0892
10-07-10, 11:38
Contact Daniel Defense, maybe you can get them to market a Magic_Salad signature edition.
They could call it the "Salad Shooter",I'm sure they'll fly of the shelves.:lol:
Bob
:dirol::neo::ph34r:
The limited edition is cool, though I bet there will be a flood of guys ordering DD V5's, adding the DD Fixed Front Sight (and X300), and a T-1 on DD Mount (with a VCAS) and calling it good.
The RIS-II FSP on a stock model is awesome, but their other offerings with OmegaX 12.0FSP models save a bit of weight and coin... The collector's value is really the part to gain anyhow.
ChicagoTex
10-07-10, 16:37
though I bet there will be a flood of guys ordering DD V5's, adding the DD Fixed Front Sight (and X300), and a T-1 on DD Mount (with a VCAS) and calling it good.
That's pretty much my ideal rig
Responses to 12 o'clock light mount position
Thanks for informing this n00b what's what. Good info to know.
I'm surprised Surefire or one of the other manufacturers has not developed a light with a built-in FSB or a flip-up sight of some sort for this particular application. Seems that it would be a good use of rail space for those people not using a fixed FSB... :confused: Or is there one like that already?
Thomas M-4
10-07-10, 18:16
Thanks for informing this n00b what's what. Good info to know.
I'm surprised Surefire or one of the other manufacturers has not developed a light with a built-in FSB or a flip-up sight of some sort for this particular application. Seems that it would be a good use of rail space for those people not using a fixed FSB... :confused: Or is there one like that already?
Something like this perhaps. http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
ILM mount attaches to the front sight bus.
I think he was talking about more of an integrated light and front sight.
I like this but would love to see them put a package together based on the DDM4 V5 LW. I think that rilfe is the cat's ass.
Why the FSP? Is this preferred over the Std. RIS II with folding sights?
Am thinking of using the MK18 RIS on a 16" BBL, anyone have a pic of one?
Thanks
Why the FSP? Is this preferred over the Std. RIS II with folding sights?
Am thinking of using the MK18 RIS on a 16" BBL, anyone have a pic of one?
Thanks
yeah, I agree. I'd rather have a complete rail across the top and a DD front BUIS. That way if I ever wanted to run a dedicate magnified optic,
my FOV would not be cluttered by the FSP.
yeah, I agree. I'd rather have a complete rail across the top and a DD front BUIS. That way if I ever wanted to run a dedicate magnified optic,
my FOV would not be cluttered by the FSP.
a magnified sight is not cluttered with a FSP. at any mag over about 1.5 you can barely tell there is a shadow. at higher mag it just disappears...
Moose-Knuckle
10-07-10, 21:40
I don't want to speak for Mr. Vickers, but this carbine is his brain child. Read some of his posts on this forum and you will see he prefers a standard FSB.
I think he was talking about more of an integrated light and front sight.
Yes, this was more along the lines of what I was thinking. But the ILM is pretty nifty.
a magnified sight is not cluttered with a FSP. at any mag over about 1.5 you can barely tell there is a shadow. at higher mag it just disappears...
I agree. I used to have an ACOG on my carbine and I never really noticed the FSB or its shadow.
Going back to the LAV carbine, any stats on total weight?
Interesting how LAV is sticking with a carbine-length gas system, as well. I assume he does so for training purposes, ie, train with what you'd fight with.
I would assume something else. A midlength system probably does not leave enough space on an existing rail to stick the light at the 12 oclock position in front of the FSB. I have not tried it but that would be my guess.
a magnified sight is not cluttered with a FSP. at any mag over about 1.5 you can barely tell there is a shadow. at higher mag it just disappears...
So if I use a TR24 set at 1X, it will be like a RDS?
Thanks
Magic_Salad0892
10-08-10, 23:24
Didn't LAV use to run a DD midlength gun in some of his classes?
Purplepick
10-09-10, 02:37
Interesting that the TangoDown grip was overlooked in the video and that the website lists the rifle as shipping with a MIAD.
NCPatrolAR
10-09-10, 02:42
I hope they keep the TD grip. The MIAD is like gripping a 2x4 to me; I dont see why so many people like them. :confused:
Robb Jensen
10-09-10, 07:27
MSRP and what many dealers isn't the same thing. Most charge under MSRP to be competitive.
From what I know of the projected dealer price on this rifle we would probably be selling it for less than $2700. My boss doesn't charge more just because something is of limited production or hard to get etc. His marked up is the same or sometimes less. Less if needed to keep it at/under MSRP. Dealer profit on guns is WAY less than people realize, profit on accessories, ammo etc is far better.
MSRP and what many dealers isn't the same thing. Most charge under MSRP to be competitive.
This is correct, especially with firearms. However there is also the MAP (minimum advertised price) that often times, but not always, must be adhered to.
Different manufactures handle this different ways, but usually most have some type of policy in effect. Seems like a lot of firearms dealers catch quite a break on them though, especially when compared to other products.
Robb Jensen
10-09-10, 09:51
This is correct, especially with firearms. However there is also the MAP (minimum advertised price) that often times, but not always, must be adhered to.
Different manufactures handle this different ways, but usually most have some type of policy in effect. Seems like a lot of firearms dealers catch quite a break on them though, especially when compared to other products.
True. Aimpoint for example has a MAP.
I know of no gun manufacturer with a MAP.
justin_247
10-09-10, 10:15
True. Aimpoint for example has a MAP.
I know of no gun manufacturer with a MAP.
I thought Daniel Defense had one, which is why you have to add the item to your cart on Clyde Armory's website before you can see the listed price.
Robb Jensen
10-09-10, 10:21
I thought Daniel Defense had one, which is why you have to add the item to your cart on Clyde Armory's website before you can see the listed price.
They might I'd have to check into it.
I would be interesting if they did. Since now you can get some rifles directly from manufacturers and some from distributors. If you're buying from a distributor how does a gun company enforce MAPs?
If you're buying from a distributor how does a gun company enforce MAPs?
This can be tricky in any industry. Usually the manufacturer will specify to the distributor that the retailers they sell to must comply with MAP. But other than having someone tell you that a retailer buying from a distributor is selling below MAP, there is little that can be done that I know of.
Regarding Justin's comment about the retailer, this may be cause for concern to DD. Reason being is that, as an example, my company was contacted by one of our direct-purchase retailers that a group was underselling everyone else listed on Amazon. She was upset and said that if they continued to sell at that price she would no longer sell our products on Amazon because they couldn't stay competitive.
After looking into it, like Justin I saw no price on the add itself. I had to start the purchase process and then the lowball price is revealed. I investigated realized that a very shady company doing business under several different names was responsible. They had made several large purchases from us recently, not a distributor, but the issue is still essentially the same. And we have had to ask that distributors enforce MAP to existing customers when we discovered similar situations were taking place.
Anyway, I contacted this group to correct the issue and their correspondence was almost non-existent. So, though they paid their bills, I made the decision to stop selling to them since no resolution could be obtained and they would likely continue to undersell as long as possible.
The point of the story is that if DD does in fact have a MAP policy, it sounds like someone may be circumventing it. This is not an accusation, just an observation.
Robb Jensen
10-09-10, 10:54
Interesting.
A while ago I noticed Home Depot was selling Surefires for under MAP.
I wish they would make that rail for a midlength gun. I asked a few months ago plans have no plans to. It is a nicely set up rifle. Too much coin for me but a turn key gun.
Interesting.
A while ago I noticed Home Depot was selling Surefires for under MAP.
I know companies like Home Depot and Galls will spec. A product kut certain ways so they are cheaper. One of my friends owns a gun shop. He was on a tour of a leather company and noticed a stack of leather seperated from the others. The leather was noticeably thinner than the rest. After some repeated questions he was told it was for the leather gear the company makes for Galls. My brother in-law is a plumber and told me HD has internal parts changed from brass or steel to plastic to save money. I know gun companies do it too for places like Walmart and used to do it for Sears too.
I hope SureFire has not done it too.
I know of no gun manufacturer with a MAP.
DD has one if I remember the price lists I have seen in the past. Don't have one in front of me.
FN seems to have one based on what their local factory rep told me a couple years ago (he was also the factory rep for EO Tech, WeaponShield, and a few other lines I was dealing with).
Not exactly true. You can get an extended mid-length rail with a FSB cut to allow the FSB to fit through the rail. Many manufacturers make these. I had one on my old Sabre M5.
Where can I get one. I like the DD and Troy rails but thought they.only made them with the 12 o'clock mount for the carbine. Are you suggesting cutting out some sections to get it to work? Thanks
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=345
They list the price as $2999.00
Now i'm jealous. That's one nice AR.
justin_247
10-09-10, 16:13
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=345
They list the price as $2999.00
This rifle has one difference from the one in the video - it comes with a Magpul grip instead of a TangoDown.
Also, it looks like DD is now etching their BCGs.
Moose-Knuckle
10-09-10, 17:10
This rifle has one difference from the one in the video - it comes with a Magpul grip instead of a TangoDown.
Also, it looks like DD is now etching their BCGs.
That wasn't on their site a day or two ago. Sweet! Now it appears they come with the MIAD which is what I prefer.
Also according to the desription it will come with a FDE impact case, so I assume it's a Pelican or Hardigg.
This rifle has one difference from the one in the video - it comes with a Magpul grip instead of a TangoDown.
That's because the rifle in the video and in my picture was the pre-production gun. The picture shown on DD's website is the one they're selling.
I just watched the video again and have to say a few things. Larry your enthusiasm for this gun is contagious. And you made me laugh my tail off with the say hello to my little friend and the whatz up.
Another version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CU5Y5aDdlc&feature=player_embedded
...Listen for the rip on ARFCOM mall ninjas, HAHA.
xbmxracerx
10-10-10, 10:19
I got my DDM4v3 in June and it had the etched BCG.
This rifle has one difference from the one in the video - it comes with a Magpul grip instead of a TangoDown.
Also, it looks like DD is now etching their BCGs.
Another version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CU5Y5aDdlc&feature=player_embedded
...Listen for the rip on ARFCOM mall ninjas, HAHA.
Damn, he sure did.
Unfortunately the site has grown so large, the good people in tech forums have been almost run out on a rail by the "cheaper is the same" and the "fit and finish" crowd.
I got my DDM4v3 in June and it had the etched BCG.
How is the caliber marked? .223/5.56 or 5.56? I think they dropped the .223
Thanks
Damn, he sure did.
Unfortunately the site has grown so large, the good people in tech forums have been almost run out on a rail by the "cheaper is the same" and the "fit and finish" crowd.
That was hilarious. And had some excellent info. Getting folks laughing is a good way to get them to retain info too. My cheeks hurt from laughing.
The ar15.com stuff was right in too. I read some of their knowledge based threads and wanted to scream foul but they are locked and you can not reply.
I am glad I found this place first.
Whatz Up!
xbmxracerx
10-10-10, 10:49
5.56MM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/emufreak1/IMG01532-20101010-1145.jpg
How is the caliber marked? .223/5.56 or 5.56? I think they dropped the .223
Thanks
5.56MM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/emufreak1/IMG01532-20101010-1145.jpg
Awesome thanks. I keep seeing their photo in the add they have here and it has the old .223/5.56 makings . This one looks better to me.
Grant, I want one got any of the new DD lowers?
xbmxracerx
10-10-10, 13:21
The old facility that was stamped Daniel Defense Savannah, GA on it might have.....
Awesome thanks. I keep seeing their photo in the add they have here and it has the old .223/5.56 makings . This one looks better to me.
Grant, I want one got any of the new DD lowers?
Grant, I want one got any of the new DD lowers?
Yes on the new lowers.
C4
Anyone know why LAV chose a USGI Mag with Magpul components rather than using a PMAG?
(I apologize if this was answered here or somewhere else)
DD's website has the LAV listed at $2,999.00 FYI.
After all the different shipping charges for each individual compnent if purchased separately, that is a fairly good price from DD for the LAV. Especially considering its collectors resale value. LAV's custom 1911's go for quite a high price when they can be found; I would say down the line this DD LAV will do the same.
Looks like a good deal to me. And a great stick!!!!!!!!!!!
Wish I could buy it for myself instead of as a Christmas present for the wife...
One overlooked item is the case it comes with. I will assume a minimum of $100 for the case, but it would probably be closer to $150. Shipping on the case alone would be $15-$20.
Especially considering its collectors resale value
I just curious... do you (meaning anyone reading this) think it has collector's resale value?
Personally, I don't; I see it as a conglomerate of parts suited to a user's preference (in this case LAV) rather than something limited edition that can't be reproduced elsewhere (e.g. Magpul lowers). I see where it might be nice to have/collect from an intellectual point of view, but from a rarity/value perspective, you could build an exact duplicate from existing parts, aside from the laser-engraved lower.
I just curious... do you (meaning anyone reading this) think it has collector's resale value?
Personally, I don't; I see it as a conglomerate of parts suited to a user's preference (in this case LAV) rather than something limited edition that can't be reproduced elsewhere (e.g. Magpul lowers). I see where it might be nice to have/collect from an intellectual point of view, but from a rarity/value perspective, you could build an exact duplicate from existing parts, aside from the laser-engraved lower.
I agree, especially if I owned it. I do not have the money to buy guns like that and not shoot 'em. That said it might appeal to people in unfired condition. It is well set up and well thought out. I wish him and DD well. And again those videos are freaking hilarious.
Wazzz Up! :D
I just curious... do you (meaning anyone reading this) think it has collector's resale value?
Personally, I don't; I see it as a conglomerate of parts suited to a user's preference (in this case LAV) rather than something limited edition that can't be reproduced elsewhere (e.g. Magpul lowers). I see where it might be nice to have/collect from an intellectual point of view, but from a rarity/value perspective, you could build an exact duplicate from existing parts, aside from the laser-engraved lower.
I sort of agree with you on this one; and I should have said "potential collectors resale value". But what people collect, why they do so, and how much they pay for their collections is very enigmatic (Just look at EBAY!). If it is rare, someone wants to be the owner, and will pay a premium price.
It will in the future when an LAV fan who never knew about it, finds one, and just has to have it at any price.
I'm not one of them, but to some; that laser engraved lower would be the main reason to buy the rifle in the first place. "LAV built my rifle; just look at the laser engraving..."
My motive behind buying one:
Personally I love to find rare things to buy my wife; this rifle being her Christmas present this year. Most of the time I have to put in massive man hours to find such items, but this LAV is easy. I once drove 1,013 miles round trip (and spent $2,000.00) to buy her the first pressing of a specific vinyl record; so it's nice to get a break every once in a while and find an "easy" hard to find gift so to speak...
DD's website has the LAV listed at $2,999.00 FYI.
After all the different shipping charges for each individual compnent if purchased separately, that is a fairly good price from DD for the LAV. Especially considering its collectors resale value. LAV's custom 1911's go for quite a high price when they can be found; I would say down the line this DD LAV will do the same.
Looks like a good deal to me. And a great stick!!!!!!!!!!!
Wish I could buy it for myself instead of as a Christmas present for the wife...
We have access to these guns AND offer M4C member discounts on them (if anyone is interested).
C4
I just tried to show the second video to a buddy and it is gone. Bummer!
Moose-Knuckle
10-12-10, 14:33
One overlooked item is the case it comes with. I will assume a minimum of $100 for the case, but it would probably be closer to $150. Shipping on the case alone would be $15-$20.
I pointed this out on page 5. ;)
ChicagoTex
10-12-10, 15:37
LAV's custom 1911's go for quite a high price when they can be found; I would say down the line this DD LAV will do the same.
but to some; that laser engraved lower would be the main reason to buy the rifle in the first place. "LAV built my rifle; just look at the laser engraving..."
Except that LAV didn't have a damn thing to do with this rifle besides tell DD what he likes on it.
The high-price custom 1911s you mention are hand-fit and personally massaged by Mr. Vickers, no factory can duplicate his work.
By contrast, this DD Rifle is a normal DD rifle, built to normal DD rifle standards (which are admittedly quite high) by DD, using accessories that LAV has "approved" but that are purchaseable by anyone. Collectors aren't stupid - they know all the LAV lower says is "this is how Larry likes his gun".
The value of this gun is if you happen to like your gun the way Larry likes his, you can save some time purchasing this. It is a quality weapon built a specific way - but it is NOT going to be a high-priced collector's item in the future.
Collectors aren't stupid...
I'm not sure I'm agreeing with you, or disagreeing with you, but the etched lower makes this DD Carbine something different than the standard DD carbine, on it's face.
Given a pristine example of each in 20 years, with all accessories, and maybe even a cert, and you will have a collectible item. True collectors will know this, and try to acquire it, if their "wheelhouse" is AR's, or unique AR's, etc.
Except that LAV didn't have a damn thing to do with this rifle besides tell DD what he likes on it.
The high-price custom 1911s you mention are hand-fit and personally massaged by Mr. Vickers, no factory can duplicate his work.
By contrast, this DD Rifle is a normal DD rifle, built to normal DD rifle standards (which are admittedly quite high) by DD, using accessories that LAV has "approved" but that are purchaseable by anyone. Collectors aren't stupid - they know all the LAV lower says is "this is how Larry likes his gun".
The value of this gun is if you happen to like your gun the way Larry likes his, you can save some time purchasing this. It is a quality weapon built a specific way - but it is NOT going to be a high-priced collector's item in the future.
Just the statement "Only _ many of these were made": is enough to get collectors ears to perk up and buy things. I am not saying this rifle would be an amazing investment from an collectors point of view, but I do believe that collectors will buy them and hold on to them to re-sale in the future. People do this with everything that is in limited quantities. Even burgerking glasses, little nothing trinkets from happy meals; even beanie babies.
Shit I have a bottle of beer I found in my grandpas basement that is worth $200.00 to some sap who loved it when they could still drink it and has setimental value. Nothing special about that bottle of beer, same as all the rest that were made that year; cost .50 cents like all the rest.
LAV's 1911's was not a good way to get my point accross, but does illustrate the mans reputation; and how items attached to that reputation will be considered premium; and command a premium price.
The LAV will have some collectors value, I'm not saying it will appreciate 1000% in 2 years, just that it is a collectible, and collectors will buy them and hold on to make a profit. Its not going to be as collectible as a lot of things, but collectible none the less, and the value will increase.
I'm not sure I'm agreeing with you, or disagreeing with you, but the etched lower makes this DD Carbine something different than the standard DD carbine, on it's face.
Given a pristine example of each in 20 years, with all accessories, and maybe even a cert, and you will have a collectible item. True collectors will know this, and try to acquire it, if their "wheelhouse" is AR's, or unique AR's, etc.
I'll respectfully disagree.
The ONLY thing different about it is the lower, which is only different because it has the engraving... of another man's name on it. I could understand if it was some limited-edition military issue or clone, or if it served some special purpose; but in the end, it's simply a carbine set up to someone else's preferences.
Point in case, it's the exact same as me having a company set up a carbine to my specifications then engraving my name onto the side. If it wouldn't be worth anything from a collector's point of view, then objectively, neither will the LAV carbine because they're the same thing.
I think initially people will think the way you are, but in 20 years, after the fame and hype have been dialed down, someone will find one of these rifles and say "what the heck is the LAV and what is it doing on this lower receiver?"
I'm not discrediting LAV or his setup. I just think this is a poor idea from a limited-edition/collector's approach.
ChicagoTex
10-12-10, 16:40
Fair enough. I just have a hard time seeing a NIB LAV DD Rifle appreciate more than maybe $500 over what a comparable rifle will cost in 20 years, on the one hand, yeah that'd be about a 16-17% return on investment but on the other hand, I don't see that as really being worth it.
Eh, YMMV, I just don't see it as being worth the time and trouble to buy and hold and resell. It's a gun configured by a shooter, for shooters, and it seems to me it's economy is best expressed in being shot.
I'll respectfully disagree.
The ONLY thing different about it is the lower, which is only different because it has the engraving... of another man's name on it. I could understand if it was some limited-edition military issue or clone, or if it served some special purpose; but in the end, it's simply a carbine set up to someone else's preferences.
Point in case, it's the exact same as me having a company set up a carbine to my specifications then engraving my name onto the side. If it wouldn't be worth anything from a collector's point of view, then objectively, neither will the LAV carbine because they're the same thing.
I think initially people will think the way you are, but in 20 years, after the fame and hype have been dialed down, someone will find one of these rifles and say "what the heck is the LAV and what is it doing on this lower receiver?"
I'm not discrediting LAV or his setup. I just think this is a poor idea from a limited-edition/collector's approach.
The things that bring value are the items that are essentially like the other run of the mill item, but with something differentiating them from the run of the mill.
Item A has the laser etching from the factory, and is made in X limited quantity.
Item B is a factory similar item, with no etching and a total production count 1,000x higher.
Pristine examples of both? The one with the etching is more collectible.
I'm not sure I'm agreeing with you, or disagreeing with you, but the etched lower makes this DD Carbine something different than the standard DD carbine, on it's face.
While Tex make some good points, I think this may end up being a factor in the long run. But it may also depend on how his legacy plays out over the years.
Not to jovially discount the relevance of his decades of honorable service and possibly unparalleled knowledge, but the TOS issue alone could make this variant a legend one day. Maybe. :)
While Tex make some good points, I think this may end up being a factor in the long run. But it may also depend on how his legacy plays out over the years.
This is how I see it playing out. Any and all value will be tied to how great (or not so great) his lasting legacy turns out to be in X years. I'm not discrediting him whatsoever, people are simply weird, finicky, and unpredictable in how they remember others.
Not to jovially discount the relevance of his decades of honorable service and possibly unparalleled knowledge, but the TOS issue alone could make this variant a legend one day. Maybe. :)
LOL
I'll respectfully disagree.
The ONLY thing different about it is the lower, which is only different because it has the engraving... of another man's name on it. I could understand if it was some limited-edition military issue or clone, or if it served some special purpose; but in the end, it's simply a carbine set up to someone else's preferences.
Point in case, it's the exact same as me having a company set up a carbine to my specifications then engraving my name onto the side. If it wouldn't be worth anything from a collector's point of view, then objectively, neither will the LAV carbine because they're the same thing.
I think initially people will think the way you are, but in 20 years, after the fame and hype have been dialed down, someone will find one of these rifles and say "what the heck is the LAV and what is it doing on this lower receiver?"
I'm not discrediting LAV or his setup. I just think this is a poor idea from a limited-edition/collector's approach.
I think you just like to argue. :sarcastic:
Nobody would buy an upper with your name on it. It is not the same.
Larry Vickers will have no problem selling 250 guns. When they are gone people will want more. The folks who can not find one will pay a premium. People freaked out over Beanie Babies. The gun is not going to be worth a million bucks but it will be collectibles it is a simple matter of supply and demand. There will be at least another 250 people who will want one.
I am sure that LAV will consult with Skyyr before he endorse or specify the next product. :big_boss:
Moose-Knuckle
10-12-10, 19:56
I am sure that LAV will consult with Skyyr before he endorse or specify the next product. :big_boss:
Just about had my evening refreshment come out my nose! :lol:
I am sure that LAV will consult with Skyyr before he endorse or specify the next product. :big_boss:
HAHAHA! I laughed, honestly.
But seriously, even the joke proves my point. The collectibility is tied to the name, not the product.
I'll let it go though...
I am sure that LAV will consult with Skyyr before he endorse or specify the next product. :big_boss:
:lol::lol:
There is a market, therefore there is a product.
HAHAHA! I laughed, honestly.
But seriously, even the joke proves my point. The collectibility is tied to the name, not the product.
I'll let it go though...
No doubt it is the name. He has a well earned reputation.
I am not a "Benoit" fan but the Benoit family is pretty famous in VT and New England. They have their names in several products and people go nuts. I think the book How to bag the biggest buck of yur life have sold for $600! Crazy if you ask me for a deer hunting book. I did buy the second edition for $15-$20.
They have guns and knives that go for way more than they should, in my opinion.
This is a Remington 7600 that sold for $1000 in '99 and some one is trying to sell for $8500! I know of one that sold for $6000 a few years ago. CRAZY if you ask me.
http://www.wildernesstrader.com/Benoit%20Info/commemorative_1.htm
There is a market, therefore there is a product.
It really is that simple. I know that people scream about the Magpul lowers and say the price is unfair, while others say they will pay anything. The market dictates the price, as the market is what drives the product.
Jay Cunningham
11-06-10, 20:42
http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/images/stories/lav_carbine_001.jpg
Jay Cunningham
11-06-10, 20:53
http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/images/stories/lav_carbine_002.jpg
I handled on yesterday and it was priced much lower than $2990 etc.
I wasn't that focused on the price but I thought we were looking at $2100-$2300. Impressive package in any case. Felt extremely light for being fully decked out with T1 and a light. Felt light if it hadn't hadn't been accessorized. Very nice.
I handled on yesterday and it was priced much lower than $2990 etc.
I wasn't that focused on the price but I thought we were looking at $2100-$2300. Impressive package in any case. Felt extremely light for being fully decked out with T1 and a light. Felt light if it hadn't hadn't been accessorized. Very nice.
Was this happen to be at the 400 Pawn Shop in Dawsonville?
They have two of them, serial number 1911 and 1913. They will put no. 1911 on one of the gun auction website, no. 1913 had a $2400 price tag.
Was this happen to be at the 400 Pawn Shop in Dawsonville?
They have two of them, serial number 1911 and 1913. They will put no. 1911 on one of the gun auction website, no. 1913 had a $2400 price tag.
YES it was SAM! That's my "gettin' place". :D
I shoot almost every Sunday AM at RBGC. Usually see Skinja out there. You?
I wasn't that focused on the price but I thought we were looking at $2100-$2300.
For the complete weapon with the Aimpoint T-1 and Surefire X300? Great price.
For the complete weapon with the Aimpoint T-1 and Surefire X300? Great price.
I think SAM's $2400 is surely correct. I prob mis-remembered. ;)
For the complete weapon with the Aimpoint T-1 and Surefire X300? Great price.
Yes serial number 1913 come with the Aimpoint and Surefire.
A limited edition piece that was supposed to sell at $3,000, with a MAP of around $2,800, and already has a street price of $2,400...
I handled one yesterday. I was surprised at how light it was. Enough so that I decided to do a similar build in the future. I just could not see paying the 3K admission price, although it looks like they are coming in under that so..... I know of a local shop that has one... Damn someone talk me out of this.
I handled one yesterday. I was surprised at how light it was. Enough so that I decided to do a similar build in the future. I just could not see paying the 3K admission price, although it looks like they are coming in under that so..... I know of a local shop that has one... Damn someone talk me out of this.
I just spent a bit of time building one via shopping cart, and to be honest, the price for the VT logo comes out to be about $50... based on street price of the gun.
$50 is a small price to be honest, I have paid more for a different rollmark...
Larry Vickers will have no problem selling 250 guns. When they are gone people will want more.
This is the point - capitalism. The mfr is happy, LAV is happy and the consumer is happy. For those folks who either don't want LAV on the receiver or who like their rifle set up in some other configuration - no problem at all. Just do it your own way.
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