View Full Version : M&P 9mm accuracy
I have read a few scary reports of poor accuracy from the M&P's, but I recently shot one with the Apex kit and was impressed by both the accuracy and the shootability of the gun in general. I fondled a 5" PRO in the funshop today and came very close to giving in..... What is the concensus on accuracy expectations with the 9's?
I have a compact and a full size 9mm and both are quite accurate IMO.
Beat Trash
10-09-10, 12:19
I have no issues with the accuracy. Mine are more accurate than my gen3 Glock 9mm's. With that said, My gen 3 Glock 9mm's re accurate enough for their intended usage.
I had two 9mm M&Ps. The best groups I was able to attain from them were about 3 1/8" for ten shots standing unsupported at 25 yards. One, which has over 15k rounds was closer to 4 1/2-5" at that distance. I felt this was excessive. I tried a Storm lake barrel and while the results were not any worse, they were also no better. Subsequently I sent the gun back to Smith & Wesson.
The gun was returned to me within two weeks with a new barrel. Lockup was the same with the new barrel and there was in excess of .004" play in the barrel hood when in battery (just like the original). While group size did improve very slightly, it was now impacting 6" high at 25 yards. Given the unavailability of varying front sight heights w/tritium inserts the gun was sold. Ammunition for these tests was Federal 124 gr HST.
In doing a bit of research I found that accuracy for the 9mm and .40 is usually about what I was experiencing. As a point of reference I shot a beat to hell Glock 19 during the same range trips while I was investigating the accuracy issue and was able to shoot sub 3" groups with no problem and regularly manage sub 2 1/2" with well built 1911s.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on the M&P. I like the system for it's ergonomics and the fact it comes with real sights from the factory as opposed to slot fillers. They have been reliable for me and durable. I carried a 9mm M&P by choice for almost 4 years on duty.
There are things that need to be addressed. The triggers go from just okay to holy shite that sucks. This is easily fixed by a trip to the Apex website for one of their excellent trigger kits. The accuracy issue however is not an easy fix. I even tried Bar Sto for a gunsmith fit barrel and was told they will not be available until at least after the first of the year. For most people 4 1/2-5" groups at 25 yards may be acceptable. I want my gun to be able to shoot better then I can. As a result my carry gun is now the beat to hell 19 and a RTF2 17 is on order.
Note: YMMV, bla bla, small sample size, bla bla, offer not available in AK and HI, bla bla...you get the picture.
SWATcop556
10-09-10, 13:21
I've found my M&P9, 9c, and both 40 FS are plenty accurate and I can get 2-3" groups when I do my part however I have found that my 9's group tighter with hotter NATO or +p ammo. The 40's are GTG with most ammo other than just shit bulk ammo.
Robb Jensen
10-09-10, 14:10
I find them to be on par with Glock for accuracy and generally they are more accurate with faster bullets. Not always but much of the time.
A couple of weeks ago for the fun of it we were shooting a 10"x12" plate at 200yds offhand. About 1 out of 12 rounds could I hit it. I was using 124gr Montana Gold FMJ reloads.
My M&P9 has been my most accurate service-style handgun in that caliber. This is compared to my P228's, P226, G19, and my old USP9. I am slightly more accurate, consistency-wise, with the 228. But I am accurate and FAST with the Smith. YMMV but I wouldn't worry about a supposed lack of accuracy.
RogerinTPA
10-09-10, 15:11
I've found my M&P9, 9c, and both 40 FS are plenty accurate and I can get 2-3" groups when I do my part however I have found that my 9's group tighter with hotter NATO or +p ammo. The 40's are GTG with most ammo other than just shit bulk ammo.
My experience is the same, having the same pistols, except surprisingly, they shoot pretty damn accurate with Wolf and Barnaul steel ammo, which is shot overwhelmingly during my range visits and class, besides Blazer.
GermanSynergy
10-09-10, 15:38
No problems with accuracy from two full size M&P 9's or my 9C. The 9C is scary accurate with +P ammunition.
My .40 FS will only do 5" at 25 yards with 180 grain PD FMJ travelling ~850-880 fps. MG is about the same
135 gr Nosler HP's at ~1150 fps do 2".
155's (MG HP) are in the middle at ~3".
I really don't prefer shooting the 135's, but my gun has a definate preference for faster, lighter rounds.
I've read that Irv Stone's BarSto barrel is so long in coming because he is trying to engineer in keeping the gun from unlocking so early. Boy that's going to be expensive. ;)
Makes some sense the faster rounds group best in that case. And this would explain the best accuracy seems to come from the FS barrel vs the 5" models. Good stuff.
G34Shooter
10-09-10, 20:12
I've read that Irv Stone's BarSto barrel is so long in coming because he is trying to engineer in keeping the gun from unlocking so early. Boy that's going to be expensive. ;)
Makes some sense the faster rounds group best in that case. And this would explain the best accuracy seems to come from the FS barrel vs the 5" models. Good stuff.
Randy Lee of Apex Tactical spec'd out the barrel for Irv and should be ready by Shot Show. My second time shooting my FS9 and first time with Apex's DCAEK and Heinie Ledge sights I was able to produce a 5 round 3" group at 25 yards using Ranger-T 124gr +p standing unsupported. Hopefully the fitted barrel will knock an inch or more off and not sacrifice reliability.
Randy Lee of Apex Tactical spec'd out the barrel for Irv and should be ready by Shot Show. My second time shooting my FS9 and first time with Apex's DCAEK and Heinie Ledge sights I was able to produce a 5 round 3" group at 25 yards using Ranger-T 124gr +p standing unsupported. Hopefully the fitted barrel will knock an inch or more off and not sacrifice reliability.
That's right, Randy forecasted sub 2" capability I seem to recall reading. Crimony - 3" standing unsupported is pretty sick man! Nice.
G34Shooter
10-09-10, 21:41
That's right, Randy forecasted sub 2" capability I seem to recall reading. Crimony - 3" standing unsupported is pretty sick man! Nice.
It's ok but I use good ammo and it's hard to repeat consistently multiple times without throwing a shot lol
keysersoze
10-10-10, 05:01
My M&P9L shoot nice tight groups (when I do my part) with anything, whether it be FMJ from Mag-Tech or PRVI, and it loves JHPs like Golden Saber and Federal Hydra-Shoks.
What is the concensus on accuracy expectations with the 9's?
That depends entirely on what your expectations are. This thread is a distillation of that. Another good thread on the topic of M&P accuracy is here (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114015).
If you want to hit CoM at some distance and/or at speed, with the occasional 5-yard headshot thrown in, I'm sure it'll be fine.
If you want to make tight shots (e.g. hit a 4" steel plate or the head box at 10 or 15 yards) in a competitive environment (e.g. while on the clock during a USPSA or IDPA match) you may be frustrated. Needing to take a couple extra shots costs time, which costs matches.
I don't know what my M&P will do at 25 yards. From an iso stance, it will print a silver dollar sized 6-shot group at 7 yards with WWB/UMC/bulk type ammo. My 686 will do half that (fired double action and also from an iso stance). No clock running, but at a slightly more brisk pace than NRA rapid (6 sec / shot, IIRC).
For carry, I'm happy with both. For competition, I'm happy with the performance of my 686. I'm not satisfied with the accuracy of the M&P. YMMV.
Magic_Salad0892
10-10-10, 09:54
On par with the Glock 17.
IMHO, the M&P .45 is the most accurate (and the best) of the bunch, with the .40 being the least accurate.
My MP9 currently shoots groups that are about twice the size of those from the Glock - regardless of distance. HOWEVER - when I first got the MP - it was THREE times the size of the Glock.
Coming from a lifetime of 1911s, I simply had a very rough time adjusting to the MP trigger. I have the Apex system ready to install - and I'm sure that will bring them up to equal footing.
So - I think that they are equal to each other "mechanically" - but the stock trigger (on mine, at least), combined with someone not used to shooting that type of striker-fired weapon, lead to some lousy groups. FWIW - I can usually cut the Glock group sizes in half by shooting the 1911s - none of which have more tham run-of-the-mill work done on them. I'm sure more work with the Glock would decrease group size there, as well.
As usual - YMMV.
john
PS & FWIW - I recently installed the NY1/"-" combo on the G17. I guess I'm middle-of-the-road on that set-up. Different - yes. Better - maybe? Certainly a better reset! Keep in mind - not having a long time on the Glock trigger in the first place - I'm probably not the best person to evaluate.
I recently bought a M&P 9 and have nothing bad to say about accuracy comparing it to my Sig 229 in .357, in fact I am very pleased with it :).
mkmckinley
10-10-10, 15:46
While I've never shot it from a rest the more I shoot my M&P9 the more I appreciate its practical accuracy. It does better in my hands than my Glock 19 gen 3. I replaced the trigger with the DCAEK kit and that made a huge difference in my ability to shoot. I'm starting to reach the point where I'm able to shoot it as well as my 1911s.
FWIW, my 40c, both with stock barrel and with a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel (which has been 100% reliable through 500 rounds, mostly Ranger +p+) is not nearly as accurate as my G19 and G23.
Admittedly, I am talking about shooting off hand, not on a rest, so some of this may be the shooter.
Alpha Sierra
10-10-10, 17:25
I have read a few scary reports of poor accuracy from the M&P's
Define poor accuracy.
I have read a few scary reports of poor accuracy from the M&P's, but I recently shot one with the Apex kit and was impressed by both the accuracy and the shootability of the gun in general. I fondled a 5" PRO in the funshop today and came very close to giving in..... What is the concensus on accuracy expectations with the 9's?
My short vid of accuracy testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjESpPzhN44
For the $$$, more then accurate enough for 'gumbent' work as they say. It's no 2k+ 1911 for accuracy, nor would I expect it to be. ;)
The 5" Pro should be more accurate then the standard out of the box I was using.
dookie1481
10-10-10, 19:14
I had two 9mm M&Ps. The best groups I was able to attain from them were about 3 1/8" for ten shots standing unsupported at 25 yards. One, which has over 15k rounds was closer to 4 1/2-5" at that distance. I felt this was excessive. I tried a Storm lake barrel and while the results were not any worse, they were also no better. Subsequently I sent the gun back to Smith & Wesson.
The gun was returned to me within two weeks with a new barrel. Lockup was the same with the new barrel and there was in excess of .004" play in the barrel hood when in battery (just like the original). While group size did improve very slightly, it was now impacting 6" high at 25 yards. Given the unavailability of varying front sight heights w/tritium inserts the gun was sold. Ammunition for these tests was Federal 124 gr HST.
In doing a bit of research I found that accuracy for the 9mm and .40 is usually about what I was experiencing. As a point of reference I shot a beat to hell Glock 19 during the same range trips while I was investigating the accuracy issue and was able to shoot sub 3" groups with no problem and regularly manage sub 2 1/2" with well built 1911s.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on the M&P. I like the system for it's ergonomics and the fact it comes with real sights from the factory as opposed to slot fillers. They have been reliable for me and durable. I carried a 9mm M&P by choice for almost 4 years on duty.
There are things that need to be addressed. The triggers go from just okay to holy shite that sucks. This is easily fixed by a trip to the Apex website for one of their excellent trigger kits. The accuracy issue however is not an easy fix. I even tried Bar Sto for a gunsmith fit barrel and was told they will not be available until at least after the first of the year. For most people 4 1/2-5" groups at 25 yards may be acceptable. I want my gun to be able to shoot better then I can. As a result my carry gun is now the beat to hell 19 and a RTF2 17 is on order.
Note: YMMV, bla bla, small sample size, bla bla, offer not available in AK and HI, bla bla...you get the picture.
3-5" unsupported standing at 25 yds...that's bad?!
I haven't been overly impressed with the accuracy of my M&P9 full size*.
Like others I've found faster rounds group better. But the caveat to that is that better bullets are a contributor to accuracy.
WWB 115 seems to be 3MOA at best while Speer GD124 +P is 2MOA.
edit: compared to a Glock 19 and Beretta 92 I've had. Beretta was sweet :cool:
According to S&W, their 9mm barrels are more accurate with + P ammo. I have found this to be the case.
Personally, I really don't care much if the guns aren't super accurate with crap ammo. Where it matters is how it does with duty loads and since one of the BEST duty loads out there is the 124gr +P, I am happy.
C4
GermanSynergy
10-10-10, 20:28
Shot 300 rds of NATO ammo thru my M&P 9 this afternoon at the NRA Range. It's plenty accurate, and more than does it's part if the muttonhead behind it does his (yours truly :sarcastic: )
dookie, it did not perform at the level I know I can shoot at. A 2" larger group may not seem like much but I want my equipment to perform.
I understand that most people would find the accuracy I experienced to be more then acceptable and that's fine. I preferr to have my skills be the limiting factor, not my equipment. If I can shoot a sub 3" group why would I choose to carry a gun that can only give me a 4-5" group? If I'm off my game that means the group size will be larger (regardless of the system). Given that, wouldn't you rather start with a more accurate system? If I could have reliably/regularly achieved 3" groups from the M&P it would probably still be on my hip.
As I said YMMV.
Mine put bullets where I want them. Can't ask for anything more.
I wasnt under the impression that the M&P series were designed as a target gun(same with Glocks). I am more than happy with mine and am fairly confident it will do what its designed to do when called upon. When I am done using it in a real life situation I aint going to the BG and asking the cops to measure my "groupings" in the BG chest.
dookie1481
10-11-10, 12:08
dookie, it did not perform at the level I know I can shoot at. A 2" larger group may not seem like much but I want my equipment to perform.
I understand that most people would find the accuracy I experienced to be more then acceptable and that's fine. I preferr to have my skills be the limiting factor, not my equipment. If I can shoot a sub 3" group why would I choose to carry a gun that can only give me a 4-5" group? If I'm off my game that means the group size will be larger (regardless of the system). Given that, wouldn't you rather start with a more accurate system? If I could have reliably/regularly achieved 3" groups from the M&P it would probably still be on my hip.
As I said YMMV.
I understand what you're saying, I guess it just sounds to me like 4-5" standing unsupported is a pretty damn good 10-round group.
Jay
I have over 4,000 rounds through my M&P9, and I am very pleased with it's accuracy. I did own an M&P45 mid size (regret selling), and it was a tack driver. Although I don't think of them as bullseye pistols, they are more than adequate for precision fire.
Wayne Dobbs
10-11-10, 17:25
My M&P9 is really pretty bad in the accuracy realm, showing 10 shot groups from 5 - 8" off the bench at 25 yards with a variety of ammo. I have Glocks that will easily stay inside 3" for 10 shots with decent ammo. Having said that, I really like the ergonomics of the M&P and Randy Lee's Duty/Carry kit is the heat with this platform.
Randy has indicated he's developing sear housing blocks and locking blocks that combined with the new Bar Sto barrel should hopefully get these guns well under 2". I'm guessing that he already has prototypes of all three that are doing this. I will be a customer when all are available. I really want this platform to kick butt, but my example rather sucks.
From a rest, 25 yards, 9mm full size, I shot 5 shot groups of:
Winchester Ranger 124 FMJ
Win RA9TA
WWB 115 HP
CorBon DPX 115
CorBon 115 HP
Federal 9BP 115 hp
Federal 9BPLE 115 hp
Federal HST 124 +p
Federal HST 147
Doubletap 124 Gold dot
Speer 124 Gold dot standard pressure
Best was HST 124 +p at 1.9", next was Doubletap at a little over 2.
What was remarkable was the up to 9 inch difference in poi for some groups. Speer Gold Dot's groups were horizontally strung, while CorBon 115 was vertically strung.
Have these accuracy issues been improved in current production?
I'm looking to get my first polymer service pistol and first 9mm and have looked at Glock, HK P30, and S&W. I like the feel of the S&W and like that APEX has a solution for a crappy trigger. I also like the price point and the fact that it is American.
However, I am coming from 1911's, so 4" groups at 25 yard is seems crazy. I wouldn't have thought a pistol could be that inaccurate at that range.
I also find it interesting that faster bullets in 9mm are more accurate. In .45ACP accuracy degrades after 700 fps.
60buckscash
11-18-11, 09:07
It's a shame that it is acceptable that a NIB gun needs to be fixed with a new trigger group.
The couple I have played with (fellow club members pre and post apex kit) have acceptable minute of bad guy accuracy. Decent gun sucky trigger.
Maybe the stories you hear are from a couple bad guns or poor shooters.
Have these accuracy issues been improved in current production?
I just bought a new full size and it shoots accurately. Reading through the replies here, a lot of them are talking about poor accuracy while shooting from standing unsupported. Well, no kidding.
My 4.25" 9mm, and my 5" 40Pro will both comfortably hit 8" steel at 35-40 yards. I'm guessing a 5-6" group? With my crappy budget reloads, but both with good triggers. I'm sure they'd do better if I picked and chose my ammo. "Head-shots" (USPSA Targets) at 20-25 yards are routine.
I've shot more accurate 1911 bushing-guns, but for a bushing-less combat pistol, they're as good as any I've ever shot. Once you work over the trigger, an get sights that fit your eyes... they're fine.
Dawson Precision supplies ANY height sight from these guns now.
JW
It's a shame that it is acceptable that a NIB gun needs to be fixed with a new trigger group.
The couple I have played with (fellow club members pre and post apex kit) have acceptable minute of bad guy accuracy. Decent gun sucky trigger.
Maybe the stories you hear are from a couple bad guns or poor shooters.
It could be worse, you could have to find an extractor and RSA in order to get your gun to even run. ;)
C4
Have these accuracy issues been improved in current production?
I'm looking to get my first polymer service pistol and first 9mm and have looked at Glock, HK P30, and S&W. I like the feel of the S&W and like that APEX has a solution for a crappy trigger. I also like the price point and the fact that it is American.
However, I am coming from 1911's, so 4" groups at 25 yard is seems crazy. I wouldn't have thought a pistol could be that inaccurate at that range.
I also find it interesting that faster bullets in 9mm are more accurate. In .45ACP accuracy degrades after 700 fps.
I have done a lot of researching on this topic lately so let me share what I found out(most of which was already known).
As far as I know the accuracy issues have not been fixed by updated barrels(the only thing that will truly fix this issue). The two biggest culprits, according to Randy Lee, are poor twist rate and early unlocking.
The reason the gun is more accurate with faster bullets is, theoretically, the bullet is out of the barrel before the barrel unlocks or starts to unlock and thus tilts upwards. If you are shooting slower bullets with, again presumed less pressure, the barrel can start to unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel and thus throws the shots high. I believe my particular MP9FS was doing this. A new recoil spring(factory strength) and loading up some hot 115g ammo and my gun became an absolute tack driver again.
Now as far as the twist rate being off, I honestly dont understand anything about it, only thing I understand about twist is in AR's and bullet weight. So I have to trust Randy Lee on this one that he says its a poor choice for twist rate.
I would be hard pressed to shoot 4" groups at 25 yards personally, but that would probably be with any pistol and not just an M&P.
It could be worse, you could have to find an extractor and RSA in order to get your gun to even run. ;)
C4
I dunno. Those are pretty cheap parts. The RSA being free an all. ;)
I have done a lot of researching on this topic lately so let me share what I found out(most of which was already known).
As far as I know the accuracy issues have not been fixed by updated barrels(the only thing that will truly fix this issue). The two biggest culprits, according to Randy Lee, are poor twist rate and early unlocking.
The reason the gun is more accurate with faster bullets is, theoretically, the bullet is out of the barrel before the barrel unlocks or starts to unlock and thus tilts upwards. If you are shooting slower bullets with, again presumed less pressure, the barrel can start to unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel and thus throws the shots high. I believe my particular MP9FS was doing this. A new recoil spring(factory strength) and loading up some hot 115g ammo and my gun became an absolute tack driver again.
Now as far as the twist rate being off, I honestly dont understand anything about it, only thing I understand about twist is in AR's and bullet weight. So I have to trust Randy Lee on this one that he says its a poor choice for twist rate.
I would be hard pressed to shoot 4" groups at 25 yards personally, but that would probably be with any pistol and not just an M&P.
Well if that is the case it doesn't look like they would be able to fix it with out redesigning the whole thing...unless the lockup is remedied by an aftermarket barrel. Do the aftermarket barrels have different spec lugs? I know lockup is tuned on 1911's.
Any pistol smiths out there?
If that is the case it will drive me nuts just knowing it. I grew up shooting NRA Bullseye and I have been shooting pistols since I was 10; so I can out shoot most stock production guns (I don't mean to sound obnoxious).
It looks like I'll have to pony up for the HK P30L. If I'm replacing triggers and barrels I'm at the price of the HK (and for a few hundred more the E-Series S&W 1911:eek:)
PS: Do Glock's still have issues feeding lead bullets?
I dunno. Those are pretty cheap parts. The RSA being free an all. ;)
No, not really when you get an update on your RSA every month and all the while the gun is not fit for duty.
C4
Reading through the replies here, a lot of them are talking about poor accuracy while shooting from standing unsupported. Well, no kidding.
I understand using a rest for baseline accuracy test but isn't whether a gun shoots accurately (whatever your idea of accurate is) offhand kind of important since you likely won't settle into a rested position for defensive use?
Skunk Pilot
11-19-11, 01:59
....The two biggest culprits, according to Randy Lee, are poor twist rate and early unlocking.
The reason the gun is more accurate with faster bullets is, theoretically, the bullet is out of the barrel before the barrel unlocks or starts to unlock and thus tilts upwards. If you are shooting slower bullets with, again presumed less pressure, the barrel can start to unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel and thus throws the shots high. I believe my particular MP9FS was doing this. A new recoil spring(factory strength) and loading up some hot 115g ammo and my gun became an absolute tack driver again.
...
This is exactly what I've read on Randy's posts on this and other forums. I hope Randy's barrel fix (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124) (Bar-Sto Barrel) will work great, seems the prototypes are doing good (http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/). Then I hope in 2 years or so the M&P goes down this road to begin with. If Randy can figure this out, why and the hell can't S&W from the get go, I mean they actually make more than one gun. I know that it comes down to price, marketing and engineers working together , but they don't have a high speed camera at all?
Either way excited about Randy's barrel fix.
Oh and Schulze thanks for doing your tests.
Well if that is the case it doesn't look like they would be able to fix it with out redesigning the whole thing...unless the lockup is remedied by an aftermarket barrel. Do the aftermarket barrels have different spec lugs? I know lockup is tuned on 1911's.
A simple barrel update is all that is needed to get the gun to perform MUCH better. Randy isnt changing anything on the frame or slide at all, just the barrel. The only issue I have, and I believe others do to, is that I have a hard time spending an additional $400(rumored price point of Randy's fit barrels) on a $400 gun. Not that they are not worth $400 or that Randy should charge a lower price or anything like that, just a dilemma I face.
From what I understand, again from reading what has been written on here and other boards, the barrel blank is the same blank used for the MP40/357. When the guns were first introduced and it was only the 9mm models, they had a different barrel that what is in use today and did not, as far as I know, exhibit these issues.
Both 9mm and .40 have SAAMI limits of roughly 35,000psi while the 357sig is 40,000psi. I would venture a guess that most factory .40 loads(including cheaper ones) approach this limit, however I would also venture a guess that most 9mm loads DO NOT approach this limit(save for duty rounds and +P, which has its own 38,500 SAAMI max). So if the barrel is designed around this 35,000psi spec(and possibly even a 40,000psi spec, dont really know, but I would venture a guess that its the 35,000 spec) and since we know a barrel unlocks when pressure drops(when the bullet leaves the barrel), theoretically shooting a lower pressure round out of the barrel will cause the barrel to start to unlock early, while shooting hot +p rounds will keep the barrel locked up longer(until the appropriate time).
So what S&W really needs to do is re-design the MP9 barrels so that their unlocking is setup for a lower pressure, but obviously will still work fine when used with higher pressure rounds. Would 30,000psi unlock be good, I dont know.
Like has been said, Randy Lee can figure this out, why cant S&W? I probably know the answer and thats because Randy isnt trying to build stuff for maximum profit and minimum cost. He builds a GREAT product and charges what it costs and if that means nobody buys it, so be it(although that, so far, has NOT been the case).
60buckscash
11-19-11, 09:50
RSA?
gun $500
trigger $90
barrel $400
It ends up being a $700-1000 gun. At that point how does it beat a Glock, HK, Sig, or XD? Ergonomics? Besides the new factor I haven't seen the benefit of this system over any of the others. No prebans are available, QC has had issues(slide rust, trigger consistancy), and it is sold by a company that has lobbied it's way into almost exclusivity for legal NIB sales in MA.
/bitter ex-masshole rant.
I hope the gun work out well for the OP.
RSA?
gun $500
trigger $90
barrel $400
It ends up being a $700-1000 gun. At that point how does it beat a Glock, HK, Sig, or XD? Ergonomics? Besides the new factor I haven't seen the benefit of this system over any of the others. No prebans are available, QC has had issues(slide rust, trigger consistancy), and it is sold by a company that has lobbied it's way into almost exclusivity for legal NIB sales in MA.
/bitter ex-masshole rant.
I hope the gun work out well for the OP.
No idea where you came up with these numbers.
M&P: $450
Apex Sear and Striker block: $74 (can even getaway with just the sear and rounding/polishing the striker block yourself)
Barrel: ???
I put questions marks next to the barrels BECAUSE it isn't always needed. Some guns shoot very well and some shooters couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat (so it doesn't matter if the gun shoots 6MOA at 25yds).
My guess is that in the VERY near future, S&W will make changes to the barrel. ;)
C4
trigger $90
barrel $400
Or, how about none of the above? The vast majority of them are GTG out of the box, none of the above needed per se, and people do just that with Glocks and others (add after market triggers, etc) when they want better then out of the box performance.
Lots of people shooting stock M&Ps of all kinds, happy as clams and having zero problems.
I think that's a point others have made, and needs occasionally repeating.
Stock, no changes made, it's one hell of platform for the $$$, and unlike some companies who will go years blaming issues that arise on "user error" S&W has been quite responsive to making changes/improvements to the design, and I suspect will continue to do so.
Wayne Dobbs
11-19-11, 15:47
Sometime ago, I was talking to Ken Hackathorn about my M&P9 FS that does not shoot well at all. He told me that when Ernest Langdon was at Smith, he had a limited run of M&P 9 barrels made that required some fitting of the barrel hood and that remained locked for a longer dwell time after firing.
Ken said that his fit up very quickly and that it "shot little ragged hole groups". I'm in line for one of Randy's barrels, but I hope that Smith does change their barrel lockup design and soon to take care of this issue.
To make things more confusing, it seems to be an erratic thing. My M&P9 is very accurate, as is a friends.
But Wayne's isn't.
I need to challenge Wayne to a shootoff with M&P9s, as this is the only way I can outshoot him.:p
60buckscash
11-19-11, 16:38
@C4
I was including a little extra for shipping and tax and transfer.
@Will
All of the M&Ps that are sold in Ma come with greater than 12lbs triggers. They are doing this to make sure they pass the AG regs. Often times these triggers are 14-16. I have never seen two that have the same pull. If you want to talk about the pure money of it, one is better getting a Sigma (at least those in ban states can get big boy mags).
I think that the M&P has the potential to be a good pistol. It is close but not there yet.
@C4
I was including a little extra for shipping and tax and transfer.
@Will
All of the M&Ps that are sold in Ma come with greater than 12lbs triggers. They are doing this to make sure they pass the AG regs. Often times these triggers are 14-16. I have never seen two that have the same pull..
MA approved triggers suck balls. I have shot all configurations of stock M&P triggers, and refer in the above to non MA approved triggers that are stock. No one should suffer MA approved triggers, but even those smooth out over time and will do what's needed. If talking MA and DAO, then you have to deal with that in any gun sold in MA, so moot issue to me.
Personally, I don't think the M&P is good for the $$$, I think it's great for the $$$, and the only plastic wonder pistol to date that took me away from my beloved 1911s, with a minimal amount of alterations.
Your mileage may vary. ;)
To make things more confusing, it seems to be an erratic thing. My M&P9 is very accurate, as is a friends.
But Wayne's isn't.
I need to challenge Wayne to a shootoff with M&P9s, as this is the only way I can outshoot him.:p
We just sold an Apex FSS to a KNOWN good shooter from WV and he validated (in front of Hackathorn) that his was accurate (was a 9mm).
So it really is luck of the draw. Some will shoot 2.5" groups and some won't.
C4
No idea where you came up with these numbers.
M&P: $450
Apex Sear and Striker block: $74 (can even getaway with just the sear and rounding/polishing the striker block yourself)
Barrel: ???
I put questions marks next to the barrels BECAUSE it isn't always needed. Some guns shoot very well and some shooters couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat (so it doesn't matter if the gun shoots 6MOA at 25yds).
My guess is that in the VERY near future, S&W will make changes to the barrel. ;)
C4
Grant; I sure hope you're right about that, If they (S&W) would offer a replacement barrel that cures the locking issue and greatly improve accuracy,and possibly offer it for a reasonable price,(say under $250,or better yet,as a warranty replacement) I might be interested...In the meantime, I'll put my 9mm M&P back in the safe and wait and see what S&W does.
To make things more confusing, it seems to be an erratic thing. My M&P9 is very accurate, as is a friends.
But Wayne's isn't.
I need to challenge Wayne to a shootoff with M&P9s, as this is the only way I can outshoot him.:p
The overall inherent accuracy of my two full side M&P 9's with all weights of bullets leaves a lot to be desired also. I operate a CNC milling machine for a living and I suspect the erratic accuracy of the S&W M&P 9mm pistols that Ed mentioned above could very well be related to some of the manufacturing processes of the barrel,slide and locking block.There could be fixture,tooling or machine operator inspection issues that need to be improved so they will have less dimensional variation from part to part so they get more consistent accuracy from gun to gun. I would be very satisfied if I could have the accuracy and trigger of the Walther PPQ in my M&P 9's from the factory.
No, not really when you get an update on your RSA every month and all the while the gun is not fit for duty.
C4
Ah the RSA changing was a wild goose chase anyway. It was mostly about extractors and ejectors and tolerance stack. Once those were right the original RSA would run fine. And based on Randy Lee's notes, maybe the trigger assembly is worth a look. All that notwithstanding that is a totally unacceptable situation. Which is rumored to be getting rectified.
But if a shooter knows they can hold (offhand) less than 5" at 25 yds and their plans for the gun include using such capability, they might have something to worry about. If not, enjoy the other M&P goodness and don't worry about it. That's how a lot of USPSA M&P gunners argued it to those who were freaking how poorly their 5" guns benched at 25. They had a point. And all that might apply to a 9mm. The .45's are universally reported as match grade precise. Amazing.
The overall inherent accuracy of my two full side M&P 9's with all weights of bullets leaves a lot to be desired also. I operate a CNC milling machine for a living and I suspect the erratic accuracy of the S&W M&P 9mm pistols that Ed mentioned above could very well be related to some of the manufacturing processes of the barrel,slide and locking block.There could be fixture,tooling or machine operator inspection issues that need to be improved so they will have less dimensional variation from part to part so they get more consistent accuracy from gun to gun. I would be very satisfied if I could have the accuracy and trigger of the Walther PPQ in my M&P 9's from the factory.
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/
Maybe this....
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/random-apex/first-shots-with-the-mp-barrel/
Maybe this....
Only problem with that is, is it's estimated cost for the barrel and fitting..$400....somewhere along the way, you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it...
If S&W can make accurate 45 M&P's it should not be hard for them to figure out how to tweak the barrel, their manufacturing processes and quality control to get (consistently accurate) M&P 9mm's. Quality has no fear of time and too many times large corporations rush to shorten lead times and get the product out the door, get the $ in hand and if there are any issues with the product, fix it under warranty. You should not have to buy an aftermarket barrel for the M&P 9mm just to have Walther PPQ type accuracy .
If S&W can make accurate 45 M&P's it should not be hard for them to figure out how to tweak the barrel, their manufacturing processes and quality control to get (consistently accurate) M&P 9mm's. Quality has no fear of time and too many times large corporations rush to shorten lead times and get the product out the door, get the $ in hand and if there are any issues with the product, fix it under warranty. You should not have to buy an aftermarket barrel for the M&P 9mm just to have Walther PPQ type accuracy .
You're quite right..I solved my problem..I bought a PPQ :). If S&W does resolve this problem, and offer a replacement barrel,(under warranty would be nice) Then I'd be interested..until then, the 9mm M&P I have, will live in the safe..
We just sold an Apex FSS to a KNOWN good shooter from WV and he validated (in front of Hackathorn) that his was accurate (was a 9mm).
So it really is luck of the draw. Some will shoot 2.5" groups and some won't.
C4
With all due respect to you Grant, isn't this the problem? You pay your $500.00, then it's luck of the draw. You shoot 6" groups at 25 or so yards, so you drop an Apex trigger into it because you think the stock trigger might be the problem and you still shoot 6" groups even with the new trigger. If the shooter shoots well with a Glock, HK or Sig; this is most likely a mechanical problem with the weapon. Right now there's no after market barrel to replace it with that will help if you get one of the 9mms that shoots 6" groups at 25 yards. So, if you like to shoot drills at longer pistol distances, what do you do? Wait for bar-sto? If you saved enough money to buy a new pistol and the apex trigger, you're stuck until the bar-sto barrel comes out or you can sell the gun. My understanding is that Smith doesn't see this as a defect, so they won't replace your barrel for free, correct?
If you get one of the 2.5" grouping 9mms, you're good to go, but there's no way to tell until you buy it, which is too late.
With all due respect to you Grant, isn't this the problem? You pay your $500.00, then it's luck of the draw.
I agree that for the moment this might be shitty - if that's a problem, hold of on making the purchase.
Randy has already demonstrated that a backwards compatible revised barrel is workable, and solves this much of the problem, which tells me S&W with their significantly larger R&D budget can probably accomplish the same thing, or come close enough - then apply economy of scale on manufacturing and that becomes the new standard barrel.
AFTER that has transpired, and all factory new guns are able to shoot tight groups, it's as simple as sending your old M&P back to S&W and having them replace your 'now viewed as faulty' barrel.
[ETA] The ONLY reason I'm confident that S&W will follow up with this is that thus far they've done a great job on the M&P line with other parts (magazines, base plates, strikers) and with each iteration the final design is closer to where it should be - as much as I'd like to complain that the M&P's they're going to be selling in 2013 are the ones they probably should have sold right off the bat (for a bit more money), every design is going to have bugs, and for a US manufacturer to get that close while meeting the price point dictated by bean counters tells me the design has adequate potential.
I personally hope that somebody in the S&W peanut counting gallery realizes that the simplest option going forward is probably to buy out the entire line of S&W related Apex IP and make that the revised standard across the board, or at least make the geometry fixes to the funtional/reliability parts, and then install a more en-masse produced set of Apex clone parts (DCAEK, FSS, RAM, Extractor, etc.) in a Performance Centre line for of each model.
Apex has demonstrated the ability to improve the mouse trap, sadly I don't see that many takers on their modified barrels because many folks will look at the price of a complete new gun and think 'might as well have another tug on the slot machine' if they still want to use the M&P design.
Until then, my M&P's outshoot me, and are the only pistols that have the feature set I want that are priced below a semi-custom 1911.
In the interim - time to stock up on +P ammo.
crazymoose
11-28-11, 02:16
Randy has already demonstrated that a backwards compatible revised barrel is workable, and solves this much of the problem, which tells me S&W with their significantly larger R&D budget can probably accomplish the same thing, or come close enough - then apply economy of scale on manufacturing and that becomes the new standard barrel.
AFTER that has transpired, and all factory new guns are able to shoot tight groups, it's as simple as sending your old M&P back to S&W and having them replace your 'now viewed as faulty' barrel.
My concern with S&W is that Apex has supported the M&P more than S&W have. Now I'll grant you that Randy and crew are probably better at what they do than most of the guys hired by the actual manufacturers, but even so, the fact that it fell on a third party to fix the M&P tells me one of two things: either Smith doesn't have good enough engineers and designers, or they do have good enough guys and didn't feel like the benefits of design revisions justified the costs.
With all due respect to you Grant, isn't this the problem? You pay your $500.00, then it's luck of the draw. You shoot 6" groups at 25 or so yards, so you drop an Apex trigger into it because you think the stock trigger might be the problem and you still shoot 6" groups even with the new trigger. If the shooter shoots well with a Glock, HK or Sig; this is most likely a mechanical problem with the weapon. Right now there's no after market barrel to replace it with that will help if you get one of the 9mms that shoots 6" groups at 25 yards. So, if you like to shoot drills at longer pistol distances, what do you do? Wait for bar-sto? If you saved enough money to buy a new pistol and the apex trigger, you're stuck until the bar-sto barrel comes out or you can sell the gun. My understanding is that Smith doesn't see this as a defect, so they won't replace your barrel for free, correct?
If you get one of the 2.5" grouping 9mms, you're good to go, but there's no way to tell until you buy it, which is too late.
Yes, luck of the draw. If you do not get one that shoots 5MOA (which acceptable by combat standards) then you are good.
If you get one above that, then I would call up S&W and complain. Keep in mind that they WILL put it in a Ransom Rest and test it to verify.
C4
My concern with S&W is that Apex has supported the M&P more than S&W have. Now I'll grant you that Randy and crew are probably better at what they do than most of the guys hired by the actual manufacturers, but even so, the fact that it fell on a third party to fix the M&P tells me one of two things: either Smith doesn't have good enough engineers and designers, or they do have good enough guys and didn't feel like the benefits of design revisions justified the costs.
One thing to remember about large gun manufacturers that are interested in LE contracts (above all else) is that reliability IS the number one thing checked. So this is what S&W has focused on.
Not to sound rude towards LE, but the majority of them cannot shoot 3-4" groups at 25yds so they would NEVER know if there was an accuracy problem. ;)
For those that don't know, S&W is winning a lot of MAJOR International contracts beating out Glock, SIG, Beretta, FN and even HK (cost only). So they are passing the reliability standards AND accuracy reqs.
C4
mkmckinley
11-28-11, 10:33
For those that don't know, S&W is winning a lot of MAJOR International contracts beating out Glock, SIG, Beretta, FN and even HK (cost only). So they are passing the reliability standards AND accuracy reqs.
C4
Somebody's buying all the damn things, that's for sure. The 9s have been pretty scarce all year. I'm pretty happy that an American company is winning so many contracts. My two M&P9s have displayed adequate accuracy and and I'd go so far as to say my fullsize is more accurate than any of my Glocks. Maybe I got lucky. It seems like S&W has actually done a pretty good job of implementing improvements as the M&P has matured. Didn't they update the chassis and do something with the sear spring? Hopefully a remedy to the inaccurate pistols will be implemented in any future design changes.
snackgunner
11-28-11, 12:51
My understanding is that Smith doesn't see this as a defect, so they won't replace your barrel for free, correct?
Just recently, I talked to 2 different S&W customer service reps about accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm.
They said if theres an accuracy issue, you can send the gun (stock with origional parts, trigger, sights everything) back to them and they will test fire it and see if there's a problem with the accuracy. If there is a problem, they said they would fix it and they will replace the barrel.
My question is has anyone who has had accuracy issues with their M&P 9s, actually sent the gun back to S&W for them to look at it? And if someone has, did S&W fix the accuracy problem?
Smith has the capability to change the barrel dimensions and twist rate. In a conversation with one of the production guys at the 2011 SHOT show, they had just purchased a new broaching machine. That means they can change twist rates for R&D purposes at the very least.
The barrel lockup dimensions for increased dwell time, I have to assume that they are working on that as well.
With the Bar-Sto/Apex barrel, there will be a semi-drop in version as well. Bar-Sto has always produced the semi-drop in that has more material on the engagement surfaces that is essentially at the manufacturer's maximum dimensional specs. It may require you to do some light filing on the back of the hood, but should improve lockup since the bottom lug is set to my dimensions. There should not be a need to spend additional money for us to fit.
I prefer to use the gunsmith fit barrels for any of the pistols that we do the installation. That guarantees that the barrel is fit to our standards regardless of slide to frame dimensional tolerances.
-Randy
[
My question is has anyone who has had accuracy issues with their M&P 9s, actually sent the gun back to S&W for them to look at it? And if someone has, did S&W fix the accuracy problem?[/QUOTE]
I've bought 2 M&P9s, and a host of problems major and minor that I sent a gun back for. The first one went back to the factory 3 times. In order:
First for finish (rusting) - remedied, new slide/barrel
Second for failure to extract - remedied, new slide/barrel (I think)
Third for accuracy - new slide/barrel. Accrucary went from truly horrendous god-awful to just bad. Like 6-8" 5 shot 25 yd groups.
So, I gave up and bought a Storm Lake barrel for it. Now accuracy ranges from fair to barely marginal. 7" groups on the upper end. 5" more common. Sometimes down to 3.5" with the right ammo. Its VERY ammunition dependent. Hotter loads do better. Its very common for me to get 2" horizontal dispersion, 6-7" tall 10 shot groups.
My other M&P shoots great with full power duty loads (sometimes down to 2" 5 shot 25 yds). And 6-8" with anything standard pressure. Its wonderfully reliable though, and shoots my carry ammo well. So I live with it. Despite the lousy finish and rust issues. And the fact that I had to put in a Apex extractor. Grr.
Do the accuracy issues on the 9mm M&P's affect both fullsize and compact?
Do the accuracy issues on the 9mm M&P's affect both fullsize and compact?
Yes.
C4
DeathMetal
12-21-11, 13:43
[QUOTE=60buckscash;1146161]It's a shame that it is acceptable that a NIB gun needs to be fixed with a new trigger group. QUOTE]
The only thing I added to mine was an APEX RAM to provide reset. My trigger is not bad at all, a bit heavy but smooth.
citizensoldier16
12-21-11, 20:38
I purchased a new M&P9c about a year and a half ago and experienced horrible accuracy out of the box. At 7 yards the pistol shot about 7" to the left and 5" high...not acceptable by CCW standards. I sent it back to S&W and the found that the crowning on the barrel was not completed to standard, in fact it was not done at all. S&W sincerely apologized for this error in quality control and I was given a brand new match grade barrel as well as a free trigger job. Now the pistol shoots POA/POI at 25 yards straight from the factory.
The point of my experience? If you're not satisfied with the accuracy of your M&P, send it back. They'll fix it.
yhmspecter
12-22-11, 16:19
I have a 9mm full size and a compact, both of which seem to be poa/poi..
Alaskapopo
12-22-11, 16:40
I wasnt under the impression that the M&P series were designed as a target gun(same with Glocks). I am more than happy with mine and am fairly confident it will do what its designed to do when called upon. When I am done using it in a real life situation I aint going to the BG and asking the cops to measure my "groupings" in the BG chest.
While they are not target guns shot placement is what wins gun fights. If your gun is not accurate shot placement starts to become a matter of chance. Personally I want 4 inches or less from a service pistol at 25 yards. I prefer 2 inches. In real life the bag guy is not always going to present a full frontal chest sized target at close range. They use cover and concealment too.
Pat
I have a compact and a full size 9mm and both are quite accurate IMO.
I acquired a full size 9mm in trade and it has performed well. It had the APEX kit in it when I got it and then I did the stippling, which was my first time ever trying it.
Just waiting for my Raven Concealment holster for it with the TLR-1 for daily carry :dance3:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j98/jamesbernatchez/Photography/6d84ec8b.jpg
I was wondering if any who ran a 9mm conversion barrel in a M&P40 experienced the same accuracy issues?
N of 1, but my M&P 9L is as accurate, maybe more so, as my glocks. I've heard of accuracy problems with some guns, but have never experienced them first hand.
Jake
Any update on a factory fix/change?
Oldstate:
I got a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel for my .40FS a few weeks ago and have about 250 rounds of WWB through it. I wasn't shooting from a rest but it seemed just as accurate as the factory .40 barrel, i.e., I couldn't tell a difference at my skill level.
I hope Smith addresses this issue as I would like to pick up a 9FS in the near future.
jumpthestack
01-17-12, 00:31
Yes, luck of the draw. If you do not get one that shoots 5MOA (which acceptable by combat standards) then you are good.
If you get one above that, then I would call up S&W and complain. Keep in mind that they WILL put it in a Ransom Rest and test it to verify.
C4
I believe you are using MOA incorrectly. 5 MOA is equivalent to 5 inches at 100 yards, or 1.25" at 25 yards (which would be a very good group).
If you mean a 5 inch group at 25, that would be 4 * 5 = 20 MOA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_Angle
my 9PRO is very accurate with 124+P Golddots but so-so with "practice" ammo. it doesn't bother me as I realize I am the weak link in that chain...
I have 2 9mm M&P pistols boxed up and waiting for the Fedex label from Smith to go back for accuracy problems. One is a full size that I bought in May, the other is a 5” Pro that I picked up in November.
I have shot the FS a lot and it was not as accurate as I would have liked, but was accurate enough until I had a sudden deterioration of the accuracy. The 5” Pro has less than 200 rounds through it. I shot both guns from a sand bag rest at 25 yards, 10 shot groups and borrowed a stock Gen 3 Glock 17 for comparison. With Federal Champion 115 grain, the Glock shot about a 3 inch group. The Pro shot a 7 inch group and the FS only put 4 shots on paper (8.5x11 paper). The most accurate load I tested was Winchester Ranger-T 147 grain. Got a 2” group with the Glock, 6” group with the Pro, and 7 out of 10 on paper with the FS. Neither gun was shooting high, and barrel crowns look fine. The guns will be heading back to S&W this week and they told me to expect a 3-4 week turnaround time. I will pass along what they tell me.
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