Lubrication Issues [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

Pat_Rogers

07-19-07, 15:40

Gee, you mean that now they agree that heavy lube is better?
There is more to the story, but the gist is correct.

www.militarytimes.com/news/2007/07/army_carbine_lubrication_070716/

Heavy lubrication shown to improve M16, M4 effectiveness

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Jul 16, 2007 17:34:05 EDT

Army weapons officials might have found a way to improve the M16 family’s performance in the desert.

“Dust chamber” tests at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., last year show that M16 rifles and M4 carbines perform dramatically better when the weapon’s bolt assembly is heavily lubricated.

During each phase of the two-part “system assessment” at Army Test and Evaluation Command, testers fired 60,000 rounds through 10 weapon samples of each model.

Treated with light lubrication, new M16A4s and M4s, performed poorly in the extreme dust and sand conditions of the test, according to a January report from ATEC.

But when testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to the weapons, the test results showed a “significant improvement.”

Out of the 60,000 rounds fired in each phase, the M4 stoppage-rate dropped from 9,836 with light lubrication to 678 with heavy lubrication.

The M16A4 stoppage-rate dropped from 2,124 with light lubrication to 507 with heavy lubrication, results show.

For years, Army weapons officials have preached to soldiers to virtues of applying a light coat of lubrication during weapons maintenance.

But the test results reinforce a recent change in weapons maintenance guidance Army units are practicing in Iraq and Afghanistan, said Col. Carl Lipsit, project manager for Soldier Weapons.

At the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., the Army will conduct a similar dust-chamber test in August, pitting the M4 against the Heckler and Koch 416, the H&K XM8 and FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle.

All of the participating weapons will be treated with a heavy coat of lubrication during the test, Lipsit said.

DrMark

07-19-07, 16:27

There is more to the story, but the gist is correct.
Indeed. Of course, your instruction is well-received here. The fact that the military is aligning with your long-standing conclusions must be encouraging.

I posted this earlier today over here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=336002) at TOS. We'll see how it's received.

Mark

Jay Cunningham

07-19-07, 16:35

You mean using a dry-film "lubricant" on a reciprocating piece of steel that gets hot isn't a good idea? They'll need to start a thread about that on ARFCom...

;)

I guess they didn't know what they didn't know.

Whoda thunk it.

Pat_Rogers

07-19-07, 16:38

Sorry Doc, didn't mean to one up you.
That testing was condicted a little while ago. It was apparently common knowledge among some but not officially attributed.
None of this is a surprise. We knew it prior to DS, but like the staggering the bolt rings thing, is a myth so entrenched that it had become official.
The big issue for the mil now is how to do a 180 (a paradigm shift?) and change the cleaning/ maintenance protocol.
For some, anyway.
There are a whole lot that have known about it and ignored the official policy.

HolyRoller

07-19-07, 19:37

Thanks for the good info. I'm glad somebody put some numbers on it.

Just let me make sure I am clear on the results. There were 120,000 rounds fired through the M16s and 120,000 rounds fired through the M4s, I understand, divided evenly between dry and wet weapons. Then the article says that, properly lubed, the M16 failure rate dropped from 2124 to 507, and the M4 failure rate dropped from 9836 to 678.

If I understand correctly, this means that in a very harsh environment intended to induce failure, there were:

2124 failures out of 60,000 dry M16 rounds
507 failures out of 60,000 wet M16 rounds
9836 failures out of 60,000 dry M4 rounds
678 failures out of 60,000 wet M4 rounds

That's a dramatic improvement. If I'm not correctly reading it, please correct me. Either way, I'll make sure to clean and generously lube my M4gery before I go to sleep.

Robb Jensen

07-19-07, 19:39

It's good progress. Old traditions diehard. :)

C4IGrant

07-19-07, 19:47

Pat_Rogers

07-19-07, 20:13

Holyroller,
The rounds were not "wet" or "dry". The guns were run first lubed according to the TM. After that they were run with more lubrication.
The ammunition was not- nor should ever be- lubed.
Remember you are reading a report from a trade paper. The original report of the tests has significantly more information, and that might add to a better understanding.

I have been running the bolts heavily lubed for a long time- it works. It works better in all environments.
A clean dry gun will not run.
A dirty wet gun will run- i see this in every class, and my experience over several decades bears this out.

Grant- yeah. He made some noise, but it was fluff. I answered him in print.
I stopped teaching that in the late 80's. It is nonsense.

jmart

07-19-07, 20:37

Holyroller,
The guns were run first lubed according to the TM. After that they were run with more lubrication.
......

What I don't get is the TM already states to "generously" lube the bolt, gas rings, cam pin ......."

"Lightly" lube various detents, CH, key, ejector ........

Sounds to me like the TM always had it right but somewhere along the way the training shifted to lightly lubing everything. Or is there another lube level beyond "generous". Are we talking "Ludicrously" lubing here .......?

Remember you are reading a report from a trade paper. The original report of the tests has significantly more information, and that might add to a better understanding.

Pat, if by any chance you could obtain a copy from one of your sources and post it, it would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.

HolyRoller

07-19-07, 21:17

Pat, thanks for clearing it up. Also I did not express myself well--by "dry" I meant lightly lubed weapons, and "wet" I meant heavily lubed weapons.

By "wet rounds" I meant rounds fired through heavily lubricated weapons, and by "dry rounds" I meant rounds fired through lightly lubricated weapons. I am no expert in M16/M4 details, but even *I* know you don't lube the actual rounds! But it didn't come across that way. :(

The only time I've lubed rounds is to try a drop of oil on the top round of the mag in my Walther GSP target pistol to try to make it feed brands of .22 it didn't like. Believe it or not, some in the target shooting community suggest doing that, and I didn't know any better. It was a short-lived experiment; I just went back to .22 brands that work in my GSP.

I've read a lot of your posts here and at 10-8 and they are true force multipliers for me, directing me to good equipment and TTPs, and saving me from mistakes found elsewhere on the errornet. I'm trying to stay off your NFE list! If I can possibly swing the funds and ammo for the SC class, I want to be there, and I hope some deals come through for me before the class fills up.

Submariner

07-20-07, 08:40

Posted by Dean Caputo on 10-8
When I first took my Colt Armorer class, and then when I returned to the factory for my Inst. cert it was reinforced that the AR likes to be wet. I have taught that all over the country for almost a decade with no feedback problems.

I don't like to see the empties leaving a vapor trail of burning oil but it does not seem to bother the weapon.

I have been running several AR's of various bbl lengths by just keeping oil in the exhaust holes on every break with no cleaning for months with no problems. The key is to keep it well lubricated in the correct area.

dc

Just one of the many golden nuggets from Dean's class last year. Some of the best training dollars I have spent.

We ran four carbines (one went down due to improperly staked castle nut, my bad) through Pat's class last week with nothing more than initially lubing the bolt carrier group and SLIP 2000 in the exhaust ports at morning, noon and evening prayers.;)

Trim2L

07-20-07, 09:28

What I don't get is the TM already states to "generously" lube the bolt, gas rings, cam pin ......."

"Lightly" lube various detents, CH, key, ejector ........

Sounds to me like the TM always had it right but somewhere along the way the training shifted to lightly lubing everything. Or is there another lube level beyond "generous". Are we talking "Ludicrously" lubing here .......?

When I got out of the Army a few years ago the SOP was to use A LOT of lube...we were never told or made to run our weapons dry.

rhino

07-20-07, 10:41

I do my best to spread the "keep it wet" policy on the grassroots level whenever I have the chance. Predictably the people who listen have guns that work, and those who do not . . .

ST911

07-20-07, 12:00

If I am not mistaken Pat, didn't some VP of DPMS rip into you in a letter to SWAT mag about staggering the gas keys and how stupid it is to NOT stagger them?C4

That explains a lot of things, actually.

Pat_Rogers

07-20-07, 12:52

Jmart,
Re lube; the definition of what generous is may be subject to interpetation. Also doubtful that many Lance Coolies read it, depending on small unit leadership to guide them. And thus lies the mythology that occurs in the mil about many subjects,,,
Re a copy of the report. No.

Holyroller,
I kind of figured that, but errors on the errornet become fact in a little while;)

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the fact that people at least read some of it.:rolleyes:

dimmak

07-20-07, 13:01

Pat,

I have abided by your weapons maintenance doctrine for long time and have noticed that I have significantly fewer issues by doing so. Thanks for sharing what works...

While your platform needs no validation, perhaps this will save some lives going forward....

Pat_Rogers

07-20-07, 13:22

Thank You Dimmak,
I am just a trigger puller and arm waver. I never invented anything, have my name associated with anything and probably never had an original thought in my life.
What i have been is extremely fortunate to have worked for, with and supervised a whole bunch of extremely talented people who gave of their time and energy.
I was in front of some doors that opened at the right time, and that provided opportunities to do certain things that gave me experience.
I am just trying to pass it on (while having fun).
If something i teach works for you- use it. If not, it won't hurt my feelings. I just want to keep the good guys in the fight.

jmart

07-20-07, 13:32

Thanks Pat.

Submariner

07-20-07, 14:23

Jmart,
Also doubtful that many Lance Coolies read it, depending on small unit leadership to guide them.

Nah, we're auditory learners. Worked through The Boat School, law school and multiple EAG Carbine Operator Classes.;)

Harv

07-20-07, 15:18

What is this "Lubrication" you all speak off.......??;)

Pat_Rogers

07-20-07, 18:01

:p Funny Harv......
Of course, you have been hearing me do this through what- 4 classes over the years?
And you have see the results on yours and other guns in class.
Sigh......
Consider that this test was completed a while back, but just recently released.
Hmmm..

BoyScout4Life

07-20-07, 18:49

Thanks for the numbers HollyRoller...

BoyScout4Life....

Heavy Metal

07-20-07, 21:43

Pat, I agree with what you are saying on the gas ring thing(and the lube thing natch). You mentioned one time you removed all but one gas ring to prove the stagger the gap thing was way overblown.

Is there any more background you can add to this for future reference?

Pat_Rogers

07-20-07, 21:52

Back when the Colt Armorer's course use to include live fire, the instructors did that to show that the gun was overgassed.
Dean Caputo- a Colt armorer instructor and a good friend showed it to me and i did it on a number of ocassions to satisfy my own curiosity.

One bolt ring (new or so) in a reasonably clean gun and lubed properly will fire with no problem.
YMMV

Heavy Metal

07-22-07, 16:03

Roger that Pat,

Thanks for the info.

Pat_Rogers

07-22-07, 16:06

My pleasure!

billt

07-23-07, 14:29

Does this mean a "lubed" Bushmaster is better than a "dry" Colt??:D :D Bill T.

R Moran

07-23-07, 16:07

BillT.....NO

Back when I was in, I remember the -10 uses to read a light coat of CLP, in specific places. Mat informed me, that it changed to "generous" some time ago. So the info is out there, it just needs to filter down.

Considering some of the things my NCO's told me when I was a cherry, that'll take forever.

BTW: When I went thru the Machinegun Leadership Course, I was taught, that the differecne between a light coat and a heavy coat, was a heavy coat can be smeared with your finger.

I try to spread the word at training and classes, and on some other sites, but banging your head against the wall starts to suck after awhile, no matter how good it feels when you stop.

Bob

STAFF

07-23-07, 16:11

Does this mean a "lubed" Bushmaster is better than a "dry" Colt??:D :D Bill T.

This is a technical forum designed to help educate people on what they don't know and to share technical information. Your posts are neither technical or helpful.

You have one foot out the door so I would advise you to pick the threads you respond to with care.

Federale

07-23-07, 18:45

My agency still adheres to the dry is better belief and teaches that the AR runs better dry. I've found that a liberal dose of lube in the right places is far more important than just liberally lubing the rifle. And I've found that my AR runs more efficiently on more lube than my agency is recommending. Seeing as how standard doctrine may in fact be finally changing, I expect that my FTU will begin advocating using more lube sometime before I retire - a couple of decades from now :)

Pat_Rogers

07-23-07, 18:45

Bill- i think you are stretching the truth out a tad far. The testing done earlier this year, and the subject of the trade paper article, had to do only with M4 Carbines and M16A4 Rifles.
There were no commercial guns involved, regardless of the maker.
For you to suggest that the study showed anything to do with other than an
M4/ M16A4 is like trying to compare apples with softballs.
I think everyone understands your agenda, but it is beyond my feeble powers of comprehension to make sense out of your post- reproduced below, and how it relates to the test in any size, shape or form.

"applying to the numbers posted on this forum a lubed Bushmaster IS IN FACT MORE RELIABLE THAN A COLT FIREARM OF SIMILAR DESIGN RUNNING IN A DRY CONFIGURATION. "

Sidewinder6

07-24-07, 11:53

My pleasure!

Pat;

On the subject of Lube, what ever happened to the teflon liquid Triflow? Why did that fall off the track when considering good lube? Im not sure the stuff is even made any longer but I remember it being the 'only lube you will ever need' years ago. From a historical perspective, was the stuff too expensive or did it somehow fail stress testing?

Gunfixr

07-24-07, 12:11

I'd like to know that answer as well, as I think I still have a can of that stashed somewhere.

neodecker

07-24-07, 13:00

Ive been using the "Ultima-Lube"grease I got through Wilson Combat in my gun. Is this acceptable or do I need to try something else?

Pat_Rogers

07-24-07, 13:29

Sidewinder6; Gunfixr,
It is still being marketed. I don't recall ever using it, and not sure if i have seen any advertisements for it in the gun trade in years.

M4Guru

07-24-07, 13:58

I used Tri-Flow exclusively when I was a kid racing mountain bikes. That stuff was gold for drivetrain lube. I bet I still have some in a tool box I'll try on an AR next time I go to the range. I'm a grease guy normally (TW25B) but it can't hurt to try.

Sidewinder6

07-24-07, 15:31

I was introduced to it as a weapons lube but this goes back more then 20 years ago. As I understood, the lube is micro sized teflon in a lube base which reduced friction significantly against worn parts. A single drop of the stuff went a long way, probably like many of the newer lubes discussed.

I was curious how this stuff went by the wayside and didnt realize that it was still marketed. But in either case, I was considering this question in the context of maintaining a well lubed AR. I havent tried the Slip lube.

Thanks for your feedback.

Razoreye

07-25-07, 12:08

I try to beat this into my friends. In fact, I lube all my guns very well. It's just common sense that metal rubbing on metal creates a helluva lot of friction so why not have a barrier inbetween?

My AR receives the most lube, usually right in the exhaust ports.

Except for the AR, oil doesn't need to be pouring out all the cracks but they are happy for it. :D

xm15

07-25-07, 12:54

I have tried teflon type lube 2 times, 2 kinds and they were good until it got below freezing. the bolt actually was gummed and moved slowly when let fly home.

when warmed above 30 degrees it was very good.
since , I stick to what is well known to work. I would hate to have that happen at the wrong time.

but a few drops of your favorite in the carriers vent holes once in a while is good.

Sidewinder6

07-25-07, 15:11

m700m

07-26-07, 18:37

Pat_Rogers

07-26-07, 18:43

While CLP is the mil standard, i strongly prefer Slip 2000, especially the Enhanced Weapon Lube. The Machine Gunners Lube sold by Larue and others is also a very good to go lube.

The bottom line is use something, and use it properly (wet).

Sidewinder6

07-26-07, 19:43

Pat_Rogers

07-26-07, 19:47

Thanks for the kind words Sidewinder6. I try....

Heavy Metal

07-26-07, 21:22

Pat,

I notice you are not enamored with CLP and in the past have inferred it may not the best thing for your health.

Have you seen anything in the Break Free CLP MSDS that makes you leery or perhaps heard something that gives you pause?

R Moran

07-26-07, 21:30

so, what is a good lube for the (ar) system if one does run it with heavy lube? what i would like to know is, do we use a thick type oil, or a light oil? i always use clp, but after a little while in storage the clp seems to end up in the buffer tube. should one lube prior to use? or is there a lube that will be there when you most need it to be. thanks

My issued gun spends alot of time in the rack, in teh NM heat, for this reason I use TW25. After watching Paul Howe slather it on, I think I'll be alright.

It stays put, but is not so thick as to cause problems. I alos keep a small bottle of Militec or Slip2000 in the vest. If I'm on the range, I can always add alittle wet lube.

I think the TW25 should get me thru my basic load of ammo, after that, since I'll have to jam mags, etc, I think putting some wet lube on the gun, is not out of the rhelm of possibility.

Another officer at work claimes shes(yes she) never had a problem with Hoppes gun oil. I tried to get her to understand thats because, she cleans the gun, oils it, and it sits, drys out, etc. She then lubes it on the range, shes never had to fire it 2 or 3 months after the last maintenance she pulled on it, w/o re-lubing first, like in a gunfight. Her level officer does not shoot alot to begin with either.

Bob

Heavy Metal

07-26-07, 22:33

rykyard

07-26-07, 23:00

Now I have read the MSDS on the plain old Hoppes Gun oil and it is nothing more than mineral oil. Could not find it again.

And I found this:

http://www.break-free.com/products/msds/msds_clp_liquid.pdf

At the risk of venturing into this lane (Lubrication Issues), where I am simply a grateful consumer of the knowledge presented, I do have real world endocrinology experience and can comment on "simple mineral oil" and other complex carbon chain based lubricants. The primary concern I have with breathing the vapor is that a byproduct of high heat and some petroleum products is benzene and other aromatic carbon rings that are highly biologically active (carcinogenic, "steroid-like", etc). Heavy lubrication is likely to increase exposure considerably.

Also, thank you Pat and others for sharing your insights and recommendations.

I'll head back to my lane now.

Pat_Rogers

07-26-07, 23:16

Heavy Metal,
While working at my old address, we had a chemist attached to us and gave us a break down into what was allegedly in that at the time.
He was surprised that we had it on our unprotected hands while cleaning and cautiones us about it.
I am not a chemist, nor do i play one on TV so i figured that there were other lubricants that didn't scare him/ others as much and i would pay more attention.
I don't know what is in it now, but i like what Slip does, and possibly does it better.

As Bob states, TW25B is a pretty good grease. Known as "Elephant Sperm" in the Marine Corps, it is used on (among other things) the upgraded weapons station on the AAV's.
I have used it with great success. Bob's use of the TW25 for his use is a clue.

Rykyard- thanks for the kind words, and also for the information. You are not by any stretch out of your lane Partner. You are providing information that is valuable and useful.
My spousal unit is a Scientist with more degrees then a thermometer and what she considers light reading would turn my miniscule brain into mush.
She puts forth some pearls of wisdom about what i / we do and it puts me out of my lane on a regular basis:D

C4IGrant

07-27-07, 08:32

At the recent S&W AR Armorers school I attended, we talked about CLP at length. Did anyone every think about the fact that you cannot clean, lubricate and preserve well all at the same time?

My understanding is that CLP was made to be a "quick fix" for machine gunners and was never intended to be a long lasting lube.

Like Pat, I am fan of Slip 2000 and Machine Gunners Lube. Both keep things wet for a long time.

C4

LastRites

07-27-07, 09:47

To help with oil flowing into the reciever extension tube while in storage you could try the old muzzleloading tip of standing the rifle muzzle down. And I will appologize in advance if you all feel this is absurd statement from a 2 time poster, but it does help keep the breech plug dry, so in theory it should work for m700m's comment.

jmart

07-27-07, 10:03

My issued gun spends alot of time in the rack, in teh NM heat, for this reason I use TW25.

Another officer at work claimes shes(yes she) never had a problem with Hoppes gun oil. I tried to get her to understand thats because, she cleans the gun, oils it, and it sits, drys out, etc. She then lubes it on the range, shes never had to fire it 2 or 3 months after the last maintenance she pulled on it, w/o re-lubing first, like in a gunfight. Her level officer does not shoot alot to begin with either.

Bob

Just out of curiosity, what is the maintenance protocol for a patrol officer? Does their carbine sit in the trunk for weeks in between scheduled maint/re-lubing? Is it up to the individual officer to maintain commonly shared weapons (shotguns, carbines) that never really leave the vehicle?

I can easily understand how it would be the individual officer's responsibility to maintain their sidearm, but how does all the other shared "junk in the trunk" get maintained? Any experience about how long things can go before lubes evaporate and effectivenss is lost?

ST911

07-27-07, 10:26

Just out of curiosity, what is the maintenance protocol for a patrol officer? Does their carbine sit in the trunk for weeks in between scheduled maint/re-lubing?

It better not.

Is it up to the individual officer to maintain commonly shared weapons (shotguns, carbines) that never really leave the vehicle? ...I can easily understand how it would be the individual officer's responsibility to maintain their sidearm, but how does all the other shared "junk in the trunk" get maintained? Any experience about how long things can go before lubes evaporate and effectivenss is lost?

Weekly inspection/dusting/relubing by the officer. Monthly and unannounced inspections by the armorer. Detailed inspections 2x annually or so.

Shotguns live in the cars. Rifles/carbines have to come out at night.

If they're not found wet, they get relubed. It seems to be needed every couple of weeks or so. If they didn't get relubed, they would still run through a basic load.

tiger seven

07-27-07, 10:36

Did anyone every think about the fact that you cannot clean, lubricate and preserve well all at the same time?

I've made similar comments over the years to people who still swear by CLP. I try to explain that it'll do an okay job at all three things, but not really excel at any of them. I like to use what I call the "Swiss Army knife analogy." Something that is designed to do more than one job usually doesn't do any of those jobs as well as a dedicated tool does; meaning that the blade on a Swiss Army knife doesn't work as well for most tasks as a regular knife, the screwdrivers don't work as well as a regular screwdriver will, nor do the scissors or the saw or just about any of the tools. It is, however, convenient to have all of those tools together in one item. But when you really need a knife for a job, you want to have a real knife; and if you're going to be putting screws in holes all day you want a proper screwdriver. My point is that CLP might be fine for an afternoon of plinking or shooting cans, but if you're going to be running a gun hard and getting it hot and dirty, then you'd be wise to choose a dedicated lube that can hold up; and you'll need a better cleaner when the day is through.

As an aside, I long ago dated a girl who was a hairdresser :D and she had a similar little rant about products claiming to be a "shampoo and conditioner in one" and how the two do completely different (and diametrically opposite) things, so it's ludicrous to think that you could combine them. It's sort of like trying to put paint and paint stripper in one can. I guess people are just looking for convenience and don't really stop think about the details of how the properties that make a good cleaner run counter to those that make a good lube, and asking one little bottle to do everything for your gun probably isn't the wisest decision.

In my limited experience, I had no complaints with TW25B or Militec, but I recently made the switch to Slip 2000 and have been converted. The fact that it works so well, and that it's non-toxic and doesn't stink, frankly amazes me. I'd like to thank Pat, Grant and the other guys here for "turning me on" to it.

Derek

rhino

07-27-07, 10:43

My issued gun spends alot of time in the rack, in teh NM heat, for this reason I use TW25. After watching Paul Howe slather it on, I think I'll be alright.

It stays put, but is not so thick as to cause problems. I alos keep a small bottle of Militec or Slip2000 in the vest. If I'm on the range, I can always add alittle wet lube.

I've been using TW25B on my carry pistols for years, but I've never used a grease on my AR, just wet lubes.

How much do you use? Do you put it in the same places where a wet lube is necessary? Are there places you really need it, and some places you don't want it?

Thanks!

Pat_Rogers

07-27-07, 11:06

Tiger Seven- great analogy!
There is noting in CLP that makes me feel warm and fuzzy- that is, it cleans like crap, and it lubes like crap. I wasn't interested in the preservation angle if the rest was a show stopper.
Several years ago the Army's Preventative Maintenance magazine (the PM "comic book") stated that you should no longer use CLP for cleaning as "it promotes carbon".

Apparently this makes it just LP.....:D

Unsure why it only promotes carbon while being used as a cleaner and not as a lubricant, but this is apparently similar to that ammunition then decides to expand based on sensing heat :eek:

I haven't seen any further reference to that, and CLP is still in the TM's.

A while back i worked for a unit that was strongly dissatisfied with CLP. They had the good fortune to bump into Greg Conner of Slip 2000 at a trade show.
The got rid of the CLP and went to Slip.

Me- i sent 3 gallons of CLP to the recycle facility several years ago.

R Moran

07-27-07, 11:12

I always thought the point of CLP/Breakfree, was to give "Joe" one thing to use, take to the feild, etc. Instead of having to take RBC and LSA, etc. The CLP just simplified things. It may not have been the perfect answer, but it was a thought. And, has been said, used properly and enough, just about anyhting will work.

Jmart,
Our org. is alittle different. Every weapon gets cleaned at teh range after firing. They have about 5 auto parts cleaners for this. They're lubed w/ whatever the range has there, usually BreakFree.
All weapons, are drawn at the beginning of shift, and turned in at the end. When you draw your weapon and clear it/load it, you are to inspect it, IE make sure the light works and the Aimpoint or CQ/T works, etc.
There is a cleaning room at the admin buliding's, and anyone can go 10-6 have a supervisor clear them, and use the room. This when I put the TW25 on( I don't use the CLP).

I just use a "acid" brush and coat teh entire BCG with it, brush a little down on the lower parts, and some on the buffer and spring. We don't have much trouble with rust, but I'll put some spray TW25 on a rag, or whatever else is around, and wipe down the steel parts.

Bob

rhino

07-27-07, 11:25

I just use a "acid" brush and coat teh entire BCG with it, brush a little down on the lower parts, and some on the buffer and spring. We don't have much trouble with rust, but I'll put some spray TW25 on a rag, or whatever else is around, and wipe down the steel parts.

Thanks!

When you say you spray the TW25, are you referring to the liquid version (as sold by KleenBore; Mil-COMM call it something else)?

I'm interested for my "truck gun." It sits for long periods of time in a case and rarely gets shot, so I'm thinking TW25B might be a good idea for it.

Thanks again!

jmart

07-27-07, 11:27

Thanks. I had no idea that weapons were turned in and checked out like that. being a civilian I just assumed stuff lived in the trunk and every couple of weeks it was someone's duty to relube it.

Regarding the CLP, there are different ratios of "C" and "L" and "P" in each brand. Also within a brand, there have been revisions to the formulations over the years to address each area, but when you add some of "L", it may come at the expense of "C" or "P" and vice versa. BTW, SLIP2000 is labeled a CLP although many think of it as just a lube.

I've got about 5 different items on my cleaning shelf so I can't say I've committed to just one product. For the bore it's either FP-10 or some Butch's Bore Shine followed by FP-10, or FP-10 followed by Sweets followed by FP10. For the BCG and everything else it Mil Comm 25 Degreaser followed by SLIP2000 Carbon Cutter/Shotgun Choke Tube Cleaner (they're the exact same product accordng to SLIP) followed by TW25B.

When I run out of all this stuff I might just switch to SLIP EWL or regular SLIP2000 CLP. But I still think an occasional dose of a copper buster down the bore is warranted, every 500 rounds or so.

Pat_Rogers

07-27-07, 11:35

jackinfl

07-27-07, 11:36

Gunfixr

07-27-07, 11:55

I've been reading and learning so far till now. Never liked or used CLP, something about having to mix a lube up before use. If it seperates in the bottle, won't it seperate in your gun? Probably why I never used up the Triflow. Anyway, where do you get Slip 2000? Who makes it? How about the TW25B? Since I shoot a lot of BP, I use mostly Ballistol, but haven't tried it on an AR. It doesn't dry out, and neutralizes acids, works fine on my FAL, but it doesn't get near the carbon in the chamber area an AR does.

Pat_Rogers

07-27-07, 12:06

www.slip2000.com

Gunfixr

07-27-07, 12:08

Thank you. Again. That was fast.

Submariner

07-27-07, 13:20

Me- i sent 3 gallons of CLP to the recycle facility several years ago.

You didn't sell it at a gun show.:D

I sold a gallon and 7 pints locally and put the proceeds into SLIP2000, 725 and carbon cleaner after you let me use the stuff overnight in 2004. Great stuff!!!

R Moran

07-27-07, 13:38

Rhino,
THe spray version is in a can marked TW25 from Mil-comm, not relabeled. I don't use this for the lube, I use the standard stuff in the tubb.
The spray I use on arag for the non-moving exposed steel parts. We don't have much of arust problem, so I can't say if it works or not for that.

As Pat mentioned, I don't work for an LE agency, so things are different. I'm just a G-A-R-D:rolleyes:

Bob

Sidewinder6

07-27-07, 15:41

I believe they market it as LCP :D
Same issue. I use it as a Lube. I use the 725 as a cleaner.

Note that Bob's place of employment is sufficiently different from what most cop agencies are. Guns may get less or more care as dictated by Those Who Know Better.

At my old address, gate guards had shotguns safety wired into the racks, so that the action / magazine could never be checked.
Wanna guess how much love these Wincheters got?

I was going to comment but you beat me to it. I concur with the agency having an outstanding SOP.

I came from an era that had 870 and High Standards in vertical electric racks. After a few of us complaining about cigarette butts and ashes down the barrels, they went to a policy where you had to check out your shotgun every shift. It required alot of individual initiative because there were alot of people who abused the tools we were given.

Hearing about an agency that is this squared away is indicative of a well diciplined organization. Salute!

Heavy Metal

07-27-07, 16:17

Jay Cunningham

07-27-07, 16:47

I decided to order a SLiP2000™ 3 Pack:

1 - 1 oz Lube wih Needle Tip
1 - 4 oz 725 Pump Spray Bottle
1 - 16 oz Carbon Killer Jar

for $25.

rhino

07-27-07, 17:54

How about the TW25B?

Mil-Comm (http://www.milcomm.com/)

TW25B (http://www.milcomm.com/weapons_lubricants.html) weapons lubricants, including the grease in various sizes and containers, plus the spray-on version of the grease (which is new to me).

MC2500 (http://www.hostonline2001.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=milcomm&Category_Code=mc2500) - the oil version when you need it.

Both the TW25B and MC2500 are also marketed by KleenBore as TW25B grease and TW25B oil, respectively.

R Moran

07-27-07, 21:58

I'll wager that ain't no Stuckeys you are guarding!;)

Sometimes I wonder.

Bob

Gunfixr

07-28-07, 00:45

Thanks, Rhino. I'm going to check those out.

BushmasterFanBoy

07-28-07, 01:38

rob_s

07-28-07, 07:01

Everyone seems to be anti-CLP all the sudden, I've never used it so I can't say how I think it performs. However, I've used Hoppes since my grandfather taught me to shoot, and I was wondering how good it stands up? I use the standard #9 for cleaning and their "elite" lube for lubrication. Does anyone know if it's up to the job or should I break with family tradition and use something that will work better?

I have clung to CLP forever, and Shooter's Choice for cleaning. I recently opened a bottle of CLP that's been on my bench unused for awhile and found that it had separated into a couple different types of goo. No amount of shaking the bottle will re-mix the stuff.

I'm on the prowl for something new. I've been trying the Slip 2k but I'm still not sure if I like it for lube. I am quite happy with their cleaning products though, especially the carbon cutter.

I may try the Larue/10-8 lube here shortly.

Alpha Sierra

07-28-07, 07:27

I would think synthetic engine oil would work fine.

Dport

07-28-07, 09:29

I would think synthetic engine oil would work fine.

I ran out of lube during my last cleaning, and thought about picking more up. But I had a quart of synthetic in the garage and decided to give it a try.

C4IGrant

07-28-07, 09:37

I have clung to CLP forever, and Shooter's Choice for cleaning. I recently opened a bottle of CLP that's been on my bench unused for awhile and found that it had separated into a couple different types of goo. No amount of shaking the bottle will re-mix the stuff.

I'm on the prowl for something new. I've been trying the Slip 2k but I'm still not sure if I like it for lube. I am quite happy with their cleaning products though, especially the carbon cutter.

I may try the Larue/10-8 lube here shortly.

Try the Machine gunners lube. I ran it through a class recently still had a wet bolt after 300rds with only one application.

C4

Jay Cunningham

07-28-07, 09:45

Everyone seems to be anti-CLP all the sudden, I've never used it so I can't say how I think it performs. However, I've used Hoppes since my grandfather taught me to shoot, and I was wondering how good it stands up? I use the standard #9 for cleaning and their "elite" lube for lubrication. Does anyone know if it's up to the job or should I break with family tradition and use something that will work better?

I haven't had a problem per se with CLP, but like Rob said I've also noticed it stratifying. I also see that whatever solvent properties it might have has a tendency to eat o-rings in applicator bottles which susequently can cause it leak all over stuff in my garage or in my range bag.

I figure there's a reason the stuff is has Pat's blessing, so I should check it out.

MX5

07-28-07, 10:21

I'm old school and I've always understood wet is better, when applied in the correct places. In training I've found lubrication to be the first thing I look at when my students weapons go Tango Uniform. Since Pat has been preaching this, there has been a decrease in lube issues in class with the enlightened, but there are still many to which we must lead. I've found, generally speaking, that any good quality lube works most of the time if it's used properly and freely, but readily admit that Slip2000 is my first choice and is highly recommended. Thanks Pat, for all you've done and keep fighting the good fight.

PS: I still use lacquer thinner, mineral spirits and OMC engine tuner when appropriate.

Pat_Rogers

07-28-07, 10:46

Fanboy- "all of a sudden" has no meaning unless you put it in context.
Some of us have been doing this a long time, and our frame of reference may go back a lot longer then some would think.

Re magic lube, concoctions and the like. Most stuff (including Vagisil and WD40) will work, albeit for the short term.
The problem with engine lube etc is that it comes in one quart cans and not in containers that can be easily used in the field.
If what you do is shoot on a square range while seated at a table and such, no problem. It is for others.

MX5- thanks for the kind words. I still have some OMC Engine tuner in the shop and use it as required. It works (as you know) real well and reduces cleaning time.

There are a lot of great ways to do the same thing, and a few ways that absolutely suck.

Dport

07-28-07, 13:17

The problem with engine lube etc is that it comes in one quart cans and not in containers that can be easily used in the field.
If what you do is shoot on a square range while seated at a table and such, no problem. It is for others.

There are ways around this. Smaller containers can be purchased to hold the lube, suitable for field use.

John_Wayne777

07-28-07, 14:04

There are ways around this. Smaller containers can be purchased to hold the lube, suitable for field use.

Yup.

You can buy a hypodermic needle and use it to extract the contents of a Vagisil tube and then inject 10W-30 into the tube.

Viola! Lube AND a conversation starter on the range, all in one convenient package!

DrMark

07-28-07, 14:30

There are ways around this. Smaller containers can be purchased to hold the lube, suitable for field use.
I recently got a nice field-size lube container; fortunately it came pre-filled with Slip2000, so I don't have to try motor oil. ;)

You can buy a hypodermic needle and use it to extract the contents of a Vagisil tube and then inject 10W-30 into the tube.
If, like me, one is married or similarly yoked, I recommend not leaving a 10W-30 filled Vagisil tube around the house. :eek:

Like many, I have been a Break-Free CLP user, and found it adequate (a very subjective term). Through forums like this, folks like Pat have shared their experience with lubes that should provide a step up from "adequate." With use, I'm looking forward to the benefits of Slip2000.

Alpha Sierra

07-28-07, 14:56

Yup.

You can buy a hypodermic needle and use it to extract the contents of a Vagisil tube and then inject 10W-30 into the tube.

Viola! Lube AND a conversation starter on the range, all in one convenient package!

Or one can simply take an empty bottle of some other lube, hose its inside with solvent, tape to it a label stating "Mobil 1 5W-30" , and refill.

Pat_Rogers

07-28-07, 15:06

signal4l

07-28-07, 15:55

I believe they market it as LCP :D
Same issue. I use it as a Lube. I use the 725 as a cleaner.

Note that Bob's place of employment is sufficiently different from what most cop agencies are. Guns may get less or more care as dictated by Those Who Know Better.

At my old address, gate guards had shotguns safety wired into the racks, so that the action / magazine could never be checked.
Wanna guess how much love these Wincheters got?

This is very true. I just took a bottle of Miltech to 5 departmental M16 A1 's that were left completely dry and stored in cases in vehicle trunks. There was a good deal of surface rust on the barrels, flash hiders. No lube on the bolt, carrier.

My deprtment assigns carbines to the patrol vehicles. If you drive the same squad every day you get the same rifle. The probem with shared weapons is that no one is held accountable for their maintenance or lack of.

rob_s

07-28-07, 16:28

I'm still thinking I need to get around to finding myself an ultrasonic. I bet it'd do wonders on the bolt/carrier assembly.

jackinfl

07-28-07, 17:09

Rob,
I have access to an ultrasonic cleaner at the Armory at work. It is good, but you have to clean it as good as you can by hand first. I like the ultra sonic oil bath, that you use after the cleaning cycle. It Vibrates this really thin oil into the parts. After that you take it out let it air dry and then RE_lube and re assemble. It is not a quick process, but it does a good job. Imagine, once a year type clean and you get the picture. Anyone can do about the same level of clean with Carbon cutter/ 725 some proper tools amd clean rags.
If you want to get the gun good and dirty, like 1,000 plus rounds on it then we can dump it in the tank and you can see for yourself.
Jack

rob_s

07-28-07, 17:33

If you want to get the gun good and dirty, like 1,000 plus rounds on it then we can dump it in the tank and you can see for yourself.
Jack
That's my normal cleaning cycle for all my guns!:D

rhino

07-28-07, 18:08

Thanks, Rhino. I'm going to check those out.

You're welcome!

As far as "CLP" goes ... not all of them are the same. The latest military specs for CLP (which you can get from Royco) do not have any of the teflon or other stuff that separates from the carrier(s) like you get with Breakfree CLP and some others when you let them sit for a long time. It's (mil-spec CLP) also really thin and you probably need to keep adding it a lot more frequently.

Other products that are also CLPs work better as lubes. FP-10 is one and there are a lot of others. Some work better/longer than others. Obviously you can't go wrong with the Slip2000, as the testimony here illustrates.

I used to use a non-CLP-type liquid lube on my ARs (TW25B oil and TetraLube, which are very similar products). The guns functioned just as well with that stuff, but for some reason I started using FP-10 and it works too. I've done three day carbine classes with both kinds of lubes without cleaning or adding lube (starting dripping wet) without problems just to see if I could. That was, of course, contrary to the instructors' recommendations, so since I proved it to myself, I now follow the "rules." I add lube at least at the end of every day, and more if it's a high volume day or if the gun gets really hot from a lot of rapid fire.

Dport

07-28-07, 18:22

Roger Dport, understood. However, my time is kinda' tight, and am looking for ways to make things easier, not more difficult. I am satisfied with both the Slip 200 and Machine Gunners lube, which already come in appropriate sized containers. If i believed that something else was denonstrably better, i might consider spending so much more time- but not right now.

Copy all. I gave up reloading for the same reason.

However, if someone needed lube and had synthetic in the garage, then this is a viable alternative. Especially, if you have a wife like mine who does all sorts of craftsy crap. She has small little squeeze bottles perfect for such things in the spare room. Or you can just use the old lube bottle. It took me less time to fill up the squeeze bottle than to make this post.

And it sure beats taking your wife's Vagasil!;)

ETA: We had a hard time getting CLP from our Maintenance Support Team for whatever reason. It was HAZMAT, of course, and for some reason they had a problem getting it to the MST det in Bahrain. So we did a little bartering with the Brits to get CLP. We gave their "gunner's mates" some USGI mags, and we got a gallon of CLP. Now that was a PITA to put in little bottles for use.

Tells you something about the Brit mags too, I think. They wanted Al mags instead of their steel ones. They said ours were more reliable. Hmmm.

R Moran

07-28-07, 18:56

Signal,
Just so we are tracking, we are assigned individual weapons, you are responsible for them, and they conduct random inspections of them.

Dport, others....

Didn't the militarty just conduct another study, to find acceptable substitutes for lube, and cleaner. IO believe they said motor oil was good for lube, forget which weight, and tranny fluid to clean.

FWIW, at another facility we ised transmission fluid for lube, on the Glocks, AR's and 870 when we had them. Ken Elmore said I could use MobilOne if I wanted to. But, like Pat and others have said I have enough of the other stuff for now.

Bob

Dport

07-28-07, 19:09

Signal,

Dport, others....

Didn't the militarty just conduct another study, to find acceptable substitutes for lube, and cleaner. IO believe they said motor oil was good for lube, forget which weight, and tranny fluid to clean.

I hadn't heard that, but it does remind me. If someone is using Mobile 1, they need to understand it doesn't C or P. If you live in MS, the only place where I had preservation issues short of being haze grey and underway, you should probably use something else.

Shihan

07-29-07, 04:23

You're welcome!

As far as "CLP" goes ... not all of them are the same. The latest military specs for CLP (which you can get from Royco) do not have any of the teflon or other stuff that separates from the carrier(s) like you get with Breakfree CLP and some others when you let them sit for a long time. It's (mil-spec CLP) also really thin and you probably need to keep adding it a lot more frequently.

Other products that are also CLPs work better as lubes. FP-10 is one and there are a lot of others. Some work better/longer than others. Obviously you can't go wrong with the Slip2000, as the testimony here illustrates.

I used to use a non-CLP-type liquid lube on my ARs (TW25B oil and TetraLube, which are very similar products). The guns functioned just as well with that stuff, but for some reason I started using FP-10 and it works too. I've done three day carbine classes with both kinds of lubes without cleaning or adding lube (starting dripping wet) without problems just to see if I could. That was, of course, contrary to the instructors' recommendations, so since I proved it to myself, I now follow the "rules." I add lube at least at the end of every day, and more if it's a high volume day or if the gun gets really hot from a lot of rapid fire.

Hey Rhino where have you been finding the Royco CLP? I have been searching for awhile as I ran out and had to buy Breakfree CLP.

rhino

07-29-07, 20:50

Hey Rhino where have you been finding the Royco CLP? I have been searching for awhile as I ran out and had to buy Breakfree CLP.

Good question ... the only Royco CLP I have was repackaged from a big group multi-gallon purchase that some guys on the AR15-L e-mail list (on Yahoo!) did years ago. One of them teased me about using something other than CLP on my guns (TW25B at the time, of course!), so he sent me a pint bottle of the Royco (I forget the part number).

I know they bought it directly from Royco. I'll e-mail him and ask if it's still available.

HolyRoller

07-29-07, 22:09

Just out of curiosity, what is the maintenance protocol for a patrol officer? Does their carbine sit in the trunk for weeks in between scheduled maint/re-lubing? Is it up to the individual officer to maintain commonly shared weapons (shotguns, carbines) that never really leave the vehicle?

I can easily understand how it would be the individual officer's responsibility to maintain their sidearm, but how does all the other shared "junk in the trunk" get maintained? Any experience about how long things can go before lubes evaporate and effectivenss is lost?

jmart, that can depend on the department you're in. I don't know about others, but I'll tell you about mine, which is a rural sheriff's office of about 45 paid deputies and 15 volunteer auxiliary deputies, including me. In NC, auxiliary/reserve officers have the same arrest powers, the same basic and in-service training, and the same state certification requirement as full-timers; the only difference is how much you work and if you get paid. Hopefully I'll be going into a paid position later this year but I'm mighty glad to be in LE any way I can do it. We serve a county of 32,000 population spread out over 865 square miles and 900-odd miles of road, depending on how many private drives you count. Most of the time it's pretty calm but stuff DOES happen, and you never know when or to whom it will happen, so we try to be prepared.

For the full-timers, the department issues each one an M4gery, which stays in the deputy's take-home car. So, each deputy can clean/lube/maintain, or not, their carbine as much or little as they want. Everybody's carbine is guaranteed one thorough cleaning per year at annual qualification. We have a classroom session on the law of lethal force, shoot day and night qual, and then clean weapons before we're allowed to go home. At the last qual, I don't recall any emphasis on proper lube. We have another qual in two months and if nobody says anything official, I might mention to those around me that plenty of lube in the gas ports would be a good idea, and will probably get responses to the effect that it will drip out from the ceiling rack. How well our carbines work in the real world no one knows, since we have not had an OIS with them. How much everybody else cleans/maintains/lubes theirs, I don't know and am afraid to ask.

For the auxiliaries, if we want rifles, we have to buy and keep them ourselves. This is fine with me, because I get to buy what's good and maintain it regularly. I keep my M&P-15 in my POV, in a case with a side pocket big enough to serve as a general "war bag" with more ammo, statute book, gloves, traffic vest, and other handy items. When I go on duty, I just turn on the Short Dot and stow my rifle case and plate carrier (which actually has plates in it, Level IV) in the trunk of the senior deputy I'm riding with. My rifle is a bit scratched-up from the BFG sling's pull tab but it sure is lubed enough to where you can smell the CLP with the case zipped up. Yes, I know I need to get Slip 2000.

Everybody with a carbine is issued 50 rounds of Winchester White Box 55FMJ, part number USA223R1, which I call "M193 with brain damage" because Winchester's spec sheet lists it as 200fps slower than Q3131. At least both loads use the same bullet so I hope the 55FMJ fragmentation effect will work as advertised at any range we're likely to need it. Anyway, the important part is hitting a vital area and that's MY responsibility, so I don't get wrapped around the axle over what exact rocks they give me to throw.

The only required live fire is 100 rounds at qual, which is shooting at ye olde B-27 at ranges from 100 to 25 yards. You want practice ammo? Get a day job and buy some. Business has been up and down at my day job, limiting my live-fire to maybe 50 rounds/month this year, but dryfire and transition drills are free, and business is picking up. I had three stoppages at the only carbine class I've been able to take so far, but one was definitely my fault--I wasn't aware until then that if you slam mags too hard during an open-bolt reload, you can bounce the top rounds out. Now that I know about proper lube, I haven't had any stoppages in backyard practice, but that's not a very good test. I need another class, and soon.

jmart

07-30-07, 00:23

jmart, that can depend on the department you're in. I don't know about others, but I'll tell you about mine, which is a rural sheriff's office of about 45 paid deputies and 15 volunteer auxiliary deputies, including me. In NC, auxiliary/reserve officers have the same arrest powers, the same basic and in-service training, and the same state certification requirement as full-timers; the only difference is how much you work and if you get paid. Hopefully I'll be going into a paid position later this year but I'm mighty glad to be in LE any way I can do it. We serve a county of 32,000 population spread out over 865 square miles and 900-odd miles of road, depending on how many private drives you count. Most of the time it's pretty calm but stuff DOES happen, and you never know when or to whom it will happen, so we try to be prepared.

For the full-timers, the department issues each one an M4gery, which stays in the deputy's take-home car. So, each deputy can clean/lube/maintain, or not, their carbine as much or little as they want. Everybody's carbine is guaranteed one thorough cleaning per year at annual qualification. We have a classroom session on the law of lethal force, shoot day and night qual, and then clean weapons before we're allowed to go home. At the last qual, I don't recall any emphasis on proper lube. We have another qual in two months and if nobody says anything official, I might mention to those around me that plenty of lube in the gas ports would be a good idea, and will probably get responses to the effect that it will drip out from the ceiling rack. How well our carbines work in the real world no one knows, since we have not had an OIS with them. How much everybody else cleans/maintains/lubes theirs, I don't know and am afraid to ask.

For the auxiliaries, if we want rifles, we have to buy and keep them ourselves. This is fine with me, because I get to buy what's good and maintain it regularly. I keep my M&P-15 in my POV, in a case with a side pocket big enough to serve as a general "war bag" with more ammo, statute book, gloves, traffic vest, and other handy items. When I go on duty, I just turn on the Short Dot and stow my rifle case and plate carrier (which actually has plates in it, Level IV) in the trunk of the senior deputy I'm riding with. My rifle is a bit scratched-up from the BFG sling's pull tab but it sure is lubed enough to where you can smell the CLP with the case zipped up. Yes, I know I need to get Slip 2000.

Everybody with a carbine is issued 50 rounds of Winchester White Box 55FMJ, part number USA223R1, which I call "M193 with brain damage" because Winchester's spec sheet lists it as 200fps slower than Q3131. At least both loads use the same bullet so I hope the 55FMJ fragmentation effect will work as advertised at any range we're likely to need it. Anyway, the important part is hitting a vital area and that's MY responsibility, so I don't get wrapped around the axle over what exact rocks they give me to throw.

The only required live fire is 100 rounds at qual, which is shooting at ye olde B-27 at ranges from 100 to 25 yards. You want practice ammo? Get a day job and buy some. Business has been up and down at my day job, limiting my live-fire to maybe 50 rounds/month this year, but dryfire and transition drills are free, and business is picking up. I had three stoppages at the only carbine class I've been able to take so far, but one was definitely my fault--I wasn't aware until then that if you slam mags too hard during an open-bolt reload, you can bounce the top rounds out. Now that I know about proper lube, I haven't had any stoppages in backyard practice, but that's not a very good test. I need another class, and soon.

Thanks for the detailed response. I asked this simply out of curiosity and it's apparent it depends on your jurisdiction and your dept policies regarding frequency of PM maint.

In your case, sounds as if it's entirely up to each officer to make sure it's lubed. I guess it's guaranteed one good cleaning/lubing annually, whether it needs it or not.;)

After reading this thread and taking it all in, do you think full timers in your dept let the carbines sit for prolonged periods in between PM lubes? Anyone try to take that weapon and go through annual quals without prepping it in any way? I'm always curious how long a cleaned weapon that's lubed with CLP, how long that lube will remian effective if the weapon sits in the rack. 2 weeks? 1 month? At some point does the lube evaporate, gum up or settle out and lose its effectiveness? I would assume that grunts over in the sandbox have no such problem since they maintain their weapons daily, but I'm really curious what civilian's LE policies are and whether or not they been demonstrated to prove effective when it comes time to pull the trigger. God knows I'd be less than confident if at the time I NEEDED my carbine, it was then I realized the last time this carbine was lubed may have been 5 months ago.

rhino

07-30-07, 00:41

Hey Rhino where have you been finding the Royco CLP? I have been searching for awhile as I ran out and had to buy Breakfree CLP.

Okay . . . here is the scoop:

According to my buddy, Royco was acquired by Anderol (http://www.anderol.com).

There is a button on the Anderol web site (http://www.anderol.com) for ordering Royco products online, but it doesn't seem to function right now. You may wish to just e-mail Anderol and inquire about vendors. The CLP is designated Royco 634.

ST911

07-30-07, 10:53

Anyone try to take that weapon and go through annual quals without prepping it in any way? I'm always curious how long a cleaned weapon that's lubed with CLP, how long that lube will remian effective if the weapon sits in the rack. 2 weeks? 1 month? At some point does the lube evaporate, gum up or settle out and lose its effectiveness? I would assume that grunts over in the sandbox have no such problem since they maintain their weapons daily, but I'm really curious what civilian's LE policies are and whether or not they been demonstrated to prove effective when it comes time to pull the trigger.

I'm not Holyroller, but I have an answer to your querstion(s).

Some of our range events are unannounced. Report to the range, shoot the COFs, return to duty. Most range activities and COFs are 50-150rds. Even the neglected guns with minimal or residual lube will go that far. Most will go some distance more, depending on the lube and how much is left. Basic CLP goes the least distance, the gucci stuff (Slip, TW25, Tetra, others) longer.

I also do an annual test when the temps drop to demonstrate the gun/ammo combo will run when it's cold. (0 to -10 degrees or so)

HTH

Shihan

07-30-07, 12:11

Okay . . . here is the scoop:

According to my buddy, Royco was acquired by Anderol (http://www.anderol.com).

There is a button on the Anderol web site (http://www.anderol.com) for ordering Royco products online, but it doesn't seem to function right now. You may wish to just e-mail Anderol and inquire about vendors. The CLP is designated Royco 634.

Thanks

HolyRoller

08-02-07, 11:19

Thanks for the detailed response. I asked this simply out of curiosity and it's apparent it depends on your jurisdiction and your dept policies regarding frequency of PM maint.

In your case, sounds as if it's entirely up to each officer to make sure it's lubed. I guess it's guaranteed one good cleaning/lubing annually, whether it needs it or not.;)

After reading this thread and taking it all in, do you think full timers in your dept let the carbines sit for prolonged periods in between PM lubes? Anyone try to take that weapon and go through annual quals without prepping it in any way? I'm always curious how long a cleaned weapon that's lubed with CLP, how long that lube will remian effective if the weapon sits in the rack. 2 weeks? 1 month? At some point does the lube evaporate, gum up or settle out and lose its effectiveness? I would assume that grunts over in the sandbox have no such problem since they maintain their weapons daily, but I'm really curious what civilian's LE policies are and whether or not they been demonstrated to prove effective when it comes time to pull the trigger. God knows I'd be less than confident if at the time I NEEDED my carbine, it was then I realized the last time this carbine was lubed may have been 5 months ago.

Hi again jmart, I was meaning to ask some other guys casually about how well/often they lube but never found the right occasion. I guess we'll have the opportunity for self-criticism at rifle qual in two months. I have no knowledge as to how long a carbine can rest between lubes and still be GTG, other than (SHAME on me) there was a two-months stretch not so long ago when my carbine didn't make it out of the case due to too many "other important" things to do. When I finally came to my senses, my carbine fired a mag or two without problems without additional lubrication.

Maybe it helps that my carbine rests horizontally. Our ceiling racks are horizontal too. I'm not sure if anybody has done any comparison tests as to whether lube drains off faster in vertical v. horizontal storage. I'm reasonably confident that everybody's carbine will be able to fire at least a few rounds, which is usually enough to resolve the dispute. We keep them in "cruiser safe," aka "cruiser ready," that is, empty chamber, loaded mag, selector on safe. Every time I take mine out of the case, I "air guitar" the charging handle and touch the selector to remind myself of what's necessary to be ready to fight.

We don't have surprise range sessions, although it would be interesting if we did. We have one range for everybody in the county to use, and it happens to be behind the correctional institution that's in our county, so the state Dept of Correction likes to use it too. We have to schedule range time months in advance. But I think we all make time for what we really think is some required level of proficiency. Lots of guys are regular hunters and don't have any trouble bringing home meat, so they must be able to shoot at and hit live targets. I haven't been hunting in awhile but I live far out enough in the boonies that I can live-fire in the backyard. The last gunfight we had was five years ago, which we won, but then, don't mistake good luck for good tactics, and also it easily could have gone the other way--our guy was shot in the face and was out of service for a year.

Next time is one day closer with every sunrise.

Shihan

08-02-07, 18:49

Do you think that since Slips Carbon Cleaner is water based that it could promote rust? I know your not supposed to leave it soaking in it for a long period but im wondering the what ifs?

jmart

08-02-07, 19:40

Do you think that since Slips Carbon Cleaner is water based that it could promote rust? I know your not supposed to leave it soaking in it for a long period but im wondering the what ifs?

Carbon Cutter will strip any prior lube, so once you remove it from the soak you should wipe it dry and then lube/protect it. I don't know how long you'd need to soak it submerged before corrosion would begin forming, but I've found soaking 10-15 minutes is plenty to take care of cleaning chores and I've never seen any rust/corrosion.

Blankwaffe

08-03-07, 21:42

Hello Pat,
I truely enjoyed reading your article.Particularly the lube points you give for an assembled weapon....very handy tips.
Its also good to see that I have not been doing wrong by running my weapons on the wet side. I caught all kinds of crap from armorers when I worked as an LEO. In fact at the academy inservice I was chastised more than once due to an armorer saying he did not want oil slicks on his shelf. Needless to say my oil slick,an early 92FS,ran perfectly without fail throughout every range session. The same could not be said about most others in the classes.
I even caught crap at Palmyra during MP5 quals/SWAT training due to my somewhat moderate lube practices.Seems the "apply and wipe dry" ruled the roost for many years until recently.
Ive argued the "wet is best" point over the years on several gun forums,but always got the "dry is best" due to debris attachment...that includes the folks doing corrosion tests with the various lubes.Seems that no one truely understands that a oil film is needed to work properly in all areas of concern.Not to mention the excessive wear that a weapon gets from too little lube...which has always been a primary concern of mine.
At any rate thanks for the informative post...I will put it to good use.

A little tip I picked up a few years ago that some here may appreciate...is to use a short handle 7/8" diameter stencil brush to apply lubricants.
Mil-comm gets the credit for the tip as it was Gordon at Mil-comm who recommended the brushes for application of his TW25B. But it works perfectly with any lube and is very effective.
The brush leaves a perfect film of lube on the weapons parts.If its too heavy just spread/paint the lube around a bit more.
I keep one brush damp with lube on it and one that is dry which is good for removing dirt and debris from the weapon while in use in the field or at the range.
I keep the brushes in polymer paint ball tubes,that way they do not get contaminated in the range bag and can even be carried in a vest or pants pocket etc..
When they get dirty just wipe the chunks off with a cloth and clean with rubbing alcohol.Air dry and back in the tubes.
HTH someone out as it has served me well.

Shihan

08-05-07, 02:04

I have used CLP for 150miliion trillion years as a lube so I guess I better catch up with technology. I do like CLP as a preservative as I have read some things that leads me to believe its pretty good in that part. My question is if a weapon has CLP on it and you squirt some SLIP on it in the importanareas before going to the range, training or chasing Zombies will it work? I know the oil and water repel each other deal, but sice they arent in a bottle like salad dressing would it still do the job?

gcfennell

08-05-07, 13:52

Hi Pat! Been a while :D

I posted this sometime back on the 1911 Forum, but it still has relevancy as to the subject.

That is a very good observation, but with all due respect, based on the old school of Boundary Film Regimes which relied on oil viscosity alone to protect against the surface roughness and wear syndrome. Those "specialty" gun fluids or lubes can, and usually are, MORE effective that the ol' "goo" oil, even when they appear to be nearly dry. This is based on surface attaching compounds and halogenation techniques that are entirely corrosion controlled. In part, it is similar to giving the metal surfaces a "body armor" film that will withstand hertzian forces and loads without galling, wearing, or troughing the metal at all.

Todays boundary film techniques employ more than just high viscosity fluids and viscosity improvers. They utilize extreme pressure agents, chemically reactive surface adherents, anti-scuff and anti-wear additives as well as pour point agents and stabilizers.

Lubricating a piece of equipment that is constantly subjected to the forces of ignition combined with gas operation and recoil is a specialized task that can be done more or less efficiently depending on the fluid you choose and the abilities it has.
In the short term, many of them seem to do the job, but it is the long term stresses and wear that will dictate the service life and wear characteristics of the weapon itself.

Synthetic motor oils may seem fine to some, and in a comparative sense, are better than the older type lubricants, seeing their wide range of temperature operating conditions, all evolving from the alpha-olefin synthetic hydrocarbon, but without extensive additive packages to protect against extreme pressure and high wear, are not the best suited. (ergo the aspect of using a "gun oil" in your engine" and vice versa)

There is a difference in the construction of the fluids and their intended purposes, which make up the fluids ability to perform under those designated conditions.

Likewise, gun care is "rocket science" when it comes to the engineering end. That's our job, to make a product or products that take the science out of it by the time it gets to the shooter, allowing him/her to spend more time on shooting, and less time on the "science of the matter". But without those daring and venturesome souls out there, pusing the limits on their own guns and making note of all the pros and cons, improvements in anything would not happen. Can you imagine if there were no mavericks or wildcats in the reloading end of things?...we'd all be shooting the same old standard cartridges and loads that our grandfathers were, and ballistics as a science would have stopped dead in it's tracks.

I'll go so far as to prove it if anyone cares to take me up on it.
Just email me gcfennell@steelshieldtech.com with your name and address and I'll send you a free sample of my Weapon Shield CLP and let you all be the judge. I'll run the offer for a couple of weeks if it's ok with the admins here.
I will guarantee it is a HUGE improvement over my old FP-10 of which I am no longer associated with. So, I'll put my product where my mouth is...again. :D

Best regards,
George

rhino

08-06-07, 00:33

I will guarantee it is a HUGE improvement over my old FP-10 of which I am no longer associated with. So, I'll put my product where my mouth is...again. :D

Hey, George:

I don't know if you remember me or not, but I'm a friend of Tony H. and Deb C. who used to be on your "team" of sponsored shooters. I was an engineer in a previous life, and your discussions of lubricants and FP-10 are what led me to switch to it from what I'd been using on my ARs. I'm no expert on tribology, but I know enough to recognize someone who is. :D

Could you give us a brief explanation of why Weapon Shield is better than FP-10? Is it something completely new, or just the next step in what you were doing with FP-10?

gcfennell

08-07-07, 10:47

JOE, how are you. It's been a while my friend.
Spoke with Tony Holmes and Deb Cheek (and Robert) about a week ago and both are doing well. Good to hear from you,

Well, you COULD look at it as an upgrade to my old FP-10, but it's more like going from version 1.2 to 6.0.
What is available now in my "kitchen" of synthetics and additive ingredients is a vast improvement in the industry since I brought out FP-10 in 1988 and now.
Technology moves on in every field, including all the aspects and conjoined fields of lubrication engineering and tribology.

Best regards,
George

rhino

08-08-07, 00:37

JOE, how are you. It's been a while my friend.
Spoke with Tony Holmes and Deb Cheek (and Robert) about a week ago and both are doing well. Good to hear from you,

I am well, sir! I hope you are too. Glad to hear you are still in contact with Tony and the Cheeks!

Well, you COULD look at it as an upgrade to my old FP-10, but it's more like going from version 1.2 to 6.0.
What is available now in my "kitchen" of synthetics and additive ingredients is a vast improvement in the industry since I brought out FP-10 in 1988 and now.
Technology moves on in every field, including all the aspects and conjoined fields of lubrication engineering and tribology.

Okay ... I was going to ask you in e-mail, but why not here.

I assume you recommend cleaning all the FP-10 (and other filth) from the gun before applying the Weapon Shield. My question is, can I use the Weapon Shield itself to clean it adequately, or should I degrease everything with some brake cleaner and start from "clean"?

gcfennell

08-08-07, 07:47

Weapon Shield is all you need my friend. Cradle to grave.
It'll remove all gunk, carbon, fouling, and lead.

Best regards Joe,
George

rhino

08-08-07, 12:21

Weapon Shield is all you need my friend. Cradle to grave.
It'll remove all gunk, carbon, fouling, and lead.

Well, I'm going to try it, but you know the old saying about "if it sounds too good to be true . . ."

I shall keep an open mind!

gcfennell

08-09-07, 06:31

There's always the "exception to the rule", and this is it.
Check this out:

http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6624

Best regards,
George

ST911

08-09-07, 10:36

There's always the "exception to the rule", and this is it.
Check this out: http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6624

Best regards,
George

Feedback like that is fine, but I have yet to see some tests that involve more than folks rubbing some on, noticing how smooth it is, and running guns 50-200 rounds.

I've got my own tests underway which will be less gunzine-esque, but I was hoping for more.

This is not a dig at you or your product, George, just an observation. I hope your product is what you say. Another quality product to choose from is always welcome.

gcfennell

08-09-07, 10:50

jmart

08-09-07, 11:11

Absolutely understood Skintop and I totally agree. But I do guarantee it for the long haul, as it was engineered to be for. But that's exactly what I like to see....the kind of trials and testing you are doing yourself. That speaks louder than volumes of words.
Best regards,
George

George,

How would you decsribe this lubes ability to withstand heat? Does a lubed BCG remain lubed/wet for hundreds of rounds or does the lube cook off, necessitating additional lube application? Approx how many rounds before the cookoff and relube is required?

gcfennell

08-09-07, 12:39

George,
How would you decsribe this lubes ability to withstand heat? Does a lubed BCG remain lubed/wet for hundreds of rounds or does the lube cook off, necessitating additional lube application? Approx how many rounds before the cookoff and relube is required?
In an advanced boundary film scenario, as provided by the WS-CLP, the extreme pressure boundary film will remain and a vapor phase lubrication takes place EVEN after the weapon appears to be dry. In many test firings of fully automatic weapons, the WS-CLP still remains intact (while exibiting signs of vaporing) and keeping the weapons functional, through hundreds of rounds, as well as GE miniguns going thousands of rounds with the WS-CLP. As we all know, the caliber of each weapon will heat differently; some slower (small calibers) and some quicker (large calibers). The .50 BMG is one of the hottest to run in the shortest amounts of time, and the WS-CLP has been used extensively along with our Lithi-Shield Grease on those .50s mounted on the Hummers, by the 10th Mountain, in Southern Tikrit and Northern Baghdad with outstanding results of "no weapons failures" during firefights that lasted from 1 hour to 6 hours..
I think you will be pleasantly suprised to see just how well it works for you in your BCG operation. WS-CLP keeps going long after others fail. Thats not meant to sound like a commercial for the product, but a direct statement of fact.
This is why, I offered it up as a free sample (and an adequate 1 ounce bottle) so people can see for themselves.
Best regards,
George

Shihan

08-10-07, 04:16

George Breakfree CLP isnt the best thing for the outside of weapons. Example if you store a parkerized gun in a foam container it will destroy the finish. How is yours in the same senario and how is it for wiping down and storing a weapon?
Thanks

gcfennell

08-10-07, 09:50

paulosantos

08-10-07, 14:01

Sorry to change the topic, but our department has a policy that when you shott your gun, you have to clean it before you go home. If we have a class that is a couple of days, we havet o clean it on the last day.

Harv

08-10-07, 16:19

Just got my 1ounce sample of Weapon Shield. (Thanks George....)
(Ya all know How I love free stuff)
I'll be checking it out and report back.

rhino

08-10-07, 17:33

My sample of Weapon Shield arrived yesterday (thanks!)

I have a carbine/pistol class from 17-19 August 2007. I'm going to use the weapon shield to clean the bolt, carrier, etc. and then use it for lube for the class. Since this is a "test," I'll probably lube it "wet" to start and see how long it goes without doing anything else. I'll let you guys know what happens.

Shihan

08-10-07, 19:14

Dramatically different, sir, with no solvents or corrosive chemicals whatsoever. No more solvent smell (just a cinnamon scent), non-toxic, lubricity so high that it keeps weapons functioning in the most adverse conditions and protects against rust better that anything out there.

Did you request a sample yet Shihan? If you didn't please do and see for yourself.

Best regards,
George

I did request a sample thank you but knowing if its ok on the finish of different weapons is something I dont want to just try out. Is it safe for weapons stored in foam?
Thanks

gcfennell

08-10-07, 19:38

Is it safe for weapons stored in foam?
Thanks
Absolutely.
You're welcome.

Shihan

08-10-07, 19:48

George if your new stuff is as good as advertised, it will be like gun gold. I got the dealer pricing by the way.

Thanks

gcfennell

08-10-07, 19:58

Shi....I absolutely, unequivically, guarantee it. In fact, we're a bit conservitive in trying not to hypersensationalize it, although it deserves it. You'll love it.
Glad you got the dealer price. Anyone else having a dealer license or a state tax license can email us or me for dealer pricing as well. We aim to get all the gun shops stocked that we can. Thanks Shi ;)

Best regards,
George

ST911

08-10-07, 21:18

lad you got the dealer price. Anyone else having a dealer license or a state tax license can email us or me for dealer pricing as well. We aim to get all the gun shops stocked that we can. Thanks Shi ;) Best regards, George

Is that price schedule going to be extended to gov purchasing as well?

gcfennell

08-10-07, 21:35

Hey Skintop911,

All Military and Law Enforcement are sold on a "wholesale" basis, not retail. I did the same with my FP-10. Reason: It prevents weapons from disfunctioning and increasesw reliability, dramatically. There is no room for weapon disfunction or failure when soldiers and officers lives are on the line. And, due to the fact that they put their lives on the line every day, we try to make it easier and more affordable to use our products.

Best regards,
George

Armati

08-10-07, 21:37

gcfennell

08-10-07, 21:54

At the moment we are involved in getting set up with DSCR/DLA and have registered with CCR and are awating our cage code. Next step is to get our NSNs through DLA. We are trying to expedite this ASAP.
I don't know if the Armorers are still allowed to use the MIL credit cards for up to $3K in purchases...they used to be not long ago. I don't know if it's changed or not. If they still can, it can be ordered directy via Steel Shield Technologies (http://www.steelshieldtech.com) and the toll free #.

Best regards,
George

Armati

08-11-07, 20:16

In most cases, yes, they can use the GPC card for this. But, you cannot use the GPC when deployed.

It is easier for everyone to just order using the NSN.

koniz

08-15-07, 21:16

Dry film lube the upper that is all that is needed oiling the bolt and carrier is useless, it burns off on the first or second round

jmart

08-15-07, 21:22

Dry film lube the upper that is all that is needed oiling the bolt and carrier is useless, it burns off on the first or second round

:eek:

gcfennell

08-15-07, 21:36

Dry film lube the upper that is all that is needed oiling the bolt and carrier is useless, it burns off on the first or second round
Absolutely not true at all.
My old FP-10 and my new Weapon Shield remain on the bolt carrier (and visibly wet) after countless rounds. That is EASY enough for anyone to see and prove just by using.
PS....I SHOOT too!

koniz

08-15-07, 21:37

did it at work every day 5000 rounds a day with out any lube no malfuctions what so ever.

gcfennell

08-15-07, 22:09

Gunfixr

08-16-07, 01:56

I tried some industrial grade dry film lubricant on a couple rifles once some years ago. If somebody wants it, I'll let 'em have it for shipping, there's hardly any missing.

P.S. That is, if I can find it.

Shihan

08-16-07, 01:57

Dry film lube the upper that is all that is needed oiling the bolt and carrier is useless, it burns off on the first or second round

Uh sure ok!

Alpha Sierra

08-16-07, 06:14

oiling the bolt and carrier is useless, it burns off on the first or second round

My personal observations contradict this statement.

Robb Jensen

08-16-07, 06:17

did it at work every day 5000 rounds a day with out any lube no malfuctions what so ever.

Maybe you meant 500 rounds. But I would even have to doubt that. A completely dry AR will not usually run past 100 rounds before it ceases to function. A wet AR will run for a very long time dirty.

I've now run 1 of mine past 1800 rounds without cleaning with only adding lube every 3-400 hundred rounds.

Shihan

08-16-07, 13:47

Anybody have a run down on how there Weapon Sheild sample worked?

Mac679

08-16-07, 14:01

Generous lube - got it. I always suspected this and did it as a matter of course because it seems to work as the gun got dirtier. A lot of the time I would just put a few big drops in thru the ejection port onto the bolt and in the gas holes in the carrier.

Ok, so a practical matter, what should guys in the field be ordering?

Most suff that will come thru 'the system' will need to have an NSN. As far as I know this means:

Militec
CLP
LSA
LSAT
GMD

Any advice here?

Slip2000 was assigned NSNs a month or two ago. It's good stuff. You can find the NSNs on Slip's website.

My squad did a group buy of a 5 gal bucket of Slip EWL, don't know if we'll use all of it, but it was the best deal with the Mil/LE discount. So far, everyone loves it. The folks at Slip also sent us a bunch of empty bottles to put the lube into. Carry a 1oz bottle in my rack and an 8oz bottle in my assault pack. Afghanistan is far worse for dust than Iraq (I've seen stuff out here that's as fine as chalk powder). It doesn't stick to the Slip much at all. 3 weeks without re-lubricating and my M4 still sounds like I just lubed it. Love the stuff.

Jay Cunningham

08-16-07, 14:11

did it at work every day 5000 rounds a day with out any lube no malfuctions what so ever.

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/8545/spidersense5oc.gif

Gunfixr

08-17-07, 00:14

I just got my sample today, thanks Mr. Fennell. I will put it to use very soon.

rhino

08-17-07, 19:49

Day 1 of 3 is in the bag, but we did very little rifle shooting (pistol all morning), which consisted of zeroing and then a few drills to demonstrate the importance of holdovers at close range. So, the volume was not a significant test of the Weapon Shield so far.

I started with the bolt WET this afternoon, and I'm going to try to do nothing to it for the rest of the class. The instructor wants us to add lube every day (and I think we're doing it in a conga line tomorrow), but I'm going to try to avoid it if I can.

Heavy Metal

08-17-07, 19:58

So far, so good. Viscosity reminds me of plain non-t LSA. That is a good thing.

rhino

08-18-07, 19:22

I fired 32 rounds through my rifle on day one. Today (day two) I fired 248 rounds, for a total so far of 280 rounds since I lubed with Weapon Shield Thursday night. The bolt carrier still looks a little wet.

I'm expecting to fire around 400 rounds or tomorrow, so it will be a better test.

I'll hold off adding any more lube for as long as I can. It's getting tough to not add a couple of drops, but I will persevere with the experiment.

The only thing to report so far happened after I fired my first three shots while zeroing on Friday. After I closed my dust cover, I noticed quite a bit of white smoke rising from the gun in various places. I assume that was the heat burning away some of the lubricant, but I've never seen that (to that degree) with any other lube. We pushed the guns harder today, and I didn't see the smoke at all.

GastonG-NoVa

08-18-07, 20:17

I just finished the NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor school. It was great to re-inforce the basics. I fired just under 1500 rounds throughout the week. I used Slip 2000 the entire week, generously...of course!!

There were several folks that had issues, mostly due to dry weapons, I believe. There were a few ammo problems as well.

I ended up sharing my entire bottle with folks and it seemed to help out. It spread the word on Slip being good stuff.

Take care,
G

rhino

08-19-07, 19:47

Okay . . . I'm done with day three of three. I fired 453 rounds through the rifle and 185 pistol (which doesn't matter, because I use Kellube on my pistols). Not a high volume, but the gun functioned perfectly, starting with me brushing the chamber and running a bore snake through the bore (twice) on Thursday night before re-lubing with the Weapon Shield. The bolt and carrier were WET!

The weather took a turn and it was cool for the most part, and until this afternoon dry, dusty, and windy. The bolt carrier wasn't shiny wet at the end of the class, but it wasn't completely dry either.

The Weapon Shield worked fine for the three days, but I don't think it was a very tough test given the moderate round count.

I did re-lube the bolt carrier through the ejection port before I went home, though.

gcfennell

08-19-07, 20:20

Awesome Joe!
For those of you who keep asking "whats the sample come in?", and "is it a cheap packet?"...I post for you the following; This is the sample of Weapon Shield CLP that you will receive free, no strings. It's perfect for the shooters bags and the field vest/armor vest elastic straps.

http://www.fennzart.com/WSCLP1OZ.jpg
Photo compliments of Nelson Ong, DC

Best regards,
George

Shihan

08-19-07, 20:49

Sending out free samples of this size is very good, most samples come in a little cut it open tube that dosent give enough product to add to your coffee to tryout. I will try it out on one of my 1911's that malfunctions after about 400 rounds if not relubed. Since ammo is so expensive these days it will be done over a few sessions. I will not relube between sessions as I normally do as well.

gcfennell

08-19-07, 20:55

Sending out free samples of this size is very good, most samples come in a little cut it open tube that dosent give enough product to add to your coffee to tryout. EXACTLY Shi! The very point I am making. I hope this puts the questions all to rest :D

Best regards,
George

rhino

08-20-07, 02:59

Awesome Joe!

I'll keep using it on my ARs ... no problems so far (as mentioned).

Q: Do you have or will you have an aerosol spray version available?

Wait! I do have one problem . . . the bottle leaked in my bag. Fortunately I have experience with lube bottles, so I put it in not one but two zip top bags before I put it in my rifle bag on Thursday night. The inner zip top has a significant amount of Weapon Shield in it now, and the label is soaked (so it won't be legible soon).

Any chance a more secure container might be an option in the future?

gcfennell

08-20-07, 12:44

Hey Joe,
In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, we now have vertical Pump sprayers for the 1 oz and 4 oz bottles. We have trigger sprayers for the 16oz. Aerosols are a PITA. It thinns down the product, making it less effective and are a nightmare to ship with todays restrictions on pressurized containers and the like. Here's a quick pic of what they look like.

http://www.fennzart.com/verticalsprayers.jpg

2. The leaker was caused by "rough handling" via the USPS, which we had a few. Even UPS (OMG are they "destroyers of packages") can crush a whole box at times, even when using DOT approved packaging. We use FEDX and DHL most of the time. I'll get you another bottle out today. This one will more than likely make it to you intact. So far we've had only 3 reports of mail damage to them.

Best regards,
George

rhino

08-20-07, 13:43

Thanks, George!

koniz

08-20-07, 21:04

Koniz

No one that I know of fires 5000 rounds a day from a single weapon from any practical standpoint, of course, unless you are testing as you are at SA, I assume, and on multiple weapons.

5000 rounds is not a realistic comparison to the average, competition, or military shooter who fires under real world and not ideal test conditions.

Addendum: While dry film lubricants have shown some degree of success under ideal conditions, they have proven to be less than reliable under real world and hostile conditions involving large amounts of debris and sand, as well as high humidity and or water.

Regards,
George

Yes to answer your question I do testfire for LMT every bolt carrier every barrel and the majority of the uppers that we sold

and I also have military background but you know what keep oiling and buy all this different crap, its cool do what you want.

koniz

08-20-07, 21:09

Koniz

No one that I know of fires 5000 rounds a day from a single weapon from any practical standpoint, of course, unless you are testing as you are at SA, I assume, and on multiple weapons.

5000 rounds is not a realistic comparison to the average, competition, or military shooter who fires under real world and not ideal test conditions.

Addendum: While dry film lubricants have shown some degree of success under ideal conditions, they have proven to be less than reliable under real world and hostile conditions involving large amounts of debris and sand, as well as high humidity and or water.

Regards,
George

Maybe you meant 500 rounds. But I would even have to doubt that. A completely dry AR will not usually run past 100 rounds before it ceases to function. A wet AR will run for a very long time dirty.

I've now run 1 of mine past 1800 rounds without cleaning with only adding lube every 3-400 hundred rounds.

to answer that question I never oiled any upper to answer your question and yes with out cleaning the uppers also I don't understand why that is so hard to do. and no I meant 5000 I did it for a living think about it

Robb Jensen

08-20-07, 21:43

to answer that question I never oiled any upper to answer your question and yes with out cleaning the uppers also I don't understand why that is so hard to do. and no I meant 5000 I did it for a living think about it

Who at LMT do I speak to verify this story/data? Please provide names, dates, and other specifics.
If it's true we should be able to replicate the results.

The simple facts are that dirty wet ARs run, dirty dry ARs do not.

From the Tactical tips from Larry Vickers (http://www.vickerstactical.com/default.htm) on his web site:

TACTICAL TIPS

Weapon Lubrication

Far and away the most common problem I see when instructing is lack of proper lubrication. This goes for civilians, LE, and military. Of the groups I train on a regular basis military Spec Ops definitely understands the importance of lube the most but it is still common to find weapons not lubricated properly. And what I mean by properly is having lube in/on the working parts of the weapon.

Many weapon systems will not tolerate lack of lubrication and continue to function for any length of time. The US military M16/M4 family and M9 pistol are prime examples of two weapons that do not work well or for long without lubricant. Another example is tightly fitted custom or semi custom 1911 pistols. Simply put these weapons and others REQUIRE lubricant to function reliably - no way around it.---Larry Vickers

From one of the articles written by Pat Rogers (http://www.eagtactical.com/) :

Lubrication and Cleaning (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31)

There are a great number of myths that surround the AR platform, and many of these have taken on the status of Urban Myths. One very prominent myth is that the gun runs better dry. The AR series runs significantly better wet than dry, but there are those that approach this with such great trepidation that they steadfastly refuse to use only a very tiny bit of lube on their carbines, causing them to cease functioning after a very short while.

Hundreds of e- net posts speak of using little lube on the carbines, believing that too much lube be the cause of all problems. A friend, a retired Marine MSgt and a prolific Class 3 collector, looks at lube like it was 2 day old cat urine, and is absolutely phobic about putting anything more than a drop or two on any gun. Our experience is that after poor magazines and operator induced malfunctions, dry guns are a major cause of stoppages. We see this in every class we have ever attended or taught, and we are satisfied that our observations regarding lubrication are correct.

Consider that your carbine is a machine, and like an internal combustion engine, it requires lubrication to make it function. There are certain wear points in the gun that need attention, and failure to do so can cause a stoppage. A good rule of thumb is to look for shiny marks, which indicates metal to metal contact. If it shines, get it wet.

This is the cleaning protocol that I use. This isn’t “the” way, but rather “A” way. I don’t pretend to know everything, and I wind up learning something new about every day. Not using what is listed below won’t necessarily get you killed, make you unattractive to a potential mate, nor make you unpopular at the local gin mill.------Pat Rogers

Both of the guys who wrote these articles are instructors and are BTDT guys and are members here who post regularly.

AR15barrels

08-21-07, 02:16

Who at LMT do I speak to verify this story/data?

Gene Swenson.
I could have the last name spelled wrong though so don't quote me.
Gene is the no-bs QC guy to go to at LMT.

gcfennell

08-21-07, 03:16

to answer that question I never oiled any upper to answer your question and yes with out cleaning the uppers also I don't understand why that is so hard to do. and no I meant 5000 I did it for a living think about it
Koniz, you really need to READ my post. There are no real "questions" in it. Merely statements of observational facts and reasonable deduction (without KNOWING you were a weapons tester, I assumed correctly). However, my statement(s) still stand, for all PRACTICAL intents and purposes. GOTM4 is absolutely right in the real world...dirty wet AR bolt carriers run, dirty dry ones do not. No disrespect intended, but pulling triggers all day in ideal "test conditions" is a WORLD apart from reality, in the desert or in the bush. Nuff said on the subject on this end.
Best regards,
George

Robb Jensen

08-21-07, 05:20

Gene Swenson.
I could have the last name spelled wrong though so don't quote me.
Gene is the no-bs QC guy to go to at LMT.

So do you think he too will refute what Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers have been teaching for a long time?

I'm just a shooter, not a gunfighter and I too find that lots of lube keeps my ARs/1911s/Berettas/SIGs running well. There's only a couple of guns that I use that don't need much lube. These are Glocks and S&W M&Ps.

jmart

08-21-07, 07:44

Koniz,

When you say 5,000 rounds a day, across how mnay carriers/barrels/weapons? What's the biggest round count you fire through any single bolt/carrier combo?

Shihan

08-21-07, 13:07

to answer that question I never oiled any upper to answer your question and yes with out cleaning the uppers also I don't understand why that is so hard to do. and no I meant 5000 I did it for a living think about it

Many on here have used the AR in "Real World" situations and have donr it for "a living". This isnt a perfect world and AR's the majority of the time arent used in a perfect situation. I would hate to see the inside of a engine run without lube, it probably wont run very long?

Jay Cunningham

08-21-07, 18:20

Hawgleg44

08-23-07, 10:01

Everyone with an M16 at the MG shoots always has a can of Remoil not far away. Every 500 or so rounds, they pull the bolt carrier out, spray the hell out of it and the inside of the upper, reassemble and blast away again. Most of them go through at least 8-10,000 rounds/day with no stoppages in any M16 with a barrel 16" or over. The shorty's usually have stoppages now and then.

The most common belt feds there are some version of the 1919 with 8mm Mauser conversion barrels. All of them are dripping wet with Remoil, too.

Although I could afford an M16, there's no way I could afford to feed it as much as I would want to, so I don't own one. But, every AR I own, 4-.223's, 3 are Colts an an Oly 9mm and .45acp, are dripping wet when I shoot them, too. IMO, if your shoulder isn't getting sprayed with oil when you shoot, you need to add more lube!

Shihan

08-23-07, 13:56

Hawgleg44

08-23-07, 22:06

By far, the most common lube I see used at the MG shoots is Remoil. I don't know if they feel that it's that much better, or if they use it because they can buy it inexpensively at Wal Mart. Either way, it definately works.

I did forget to mention in my 1st post that they all have cans of Gunscrubber with them, too. Before they lube their 16's or 1919's with Remoil, they blast them out with Gunscrubber. Between his M16 and 1919, one of my friends went through 42,000 rounds in two days. The Gunscrubber/Remoil combo sure worked well.

I'm obviously not heating my AR's up like the 16's firing full auto, but it always works well for me, too. I'm a lube freak and really soak mine. There's no doubt that there are better choices for lube than Remoil, and if I had a 16, I'd probably find something better myself. But for semi-auto shooting, even with some strings of rapid fire during carbine classes, I've found that Remoil works well.

I've also tried Mobil 1 synthetic oil before. It doesn't smell very good when it heats up (it reminds me of an old 1972 Blazer I had), and the smoke will make you look like you're crying like a little baby.

ST911

08-23-07, 23:11

Hawgleg44

08-23-07, 23:18

The MG shoot example offered is odd to me, as my experience with it on some go-fasts is the opposite. I've had poor luck with Remoil. Runs off, burns off, evaporates comparatively quicker than others. It's better than nothing, but there are much better choices.

I agree with you. As I said, I"m sure there are better lubes out there for full-auto use. But, that's what they are using. If I was investing $14K in a 16, I'd sure as hell be using the best lube I could find on it, especially when shooting high volumes of ammo like they do at these shoots.

I did pick up some Break Free CLP. That stuff smells horrible before you even spray it. I can't imagine what it smells like when it starts to burn off!

Shihan

08-24-07, 02:50

Breakfrees dosent smell that bad.

Submariner

08-24-07, 05:43

Wayne Dobbs

08-24-07, 10:14

George,

I rec'd my sample from you and the packaging is very good. I am about to put it to the test in several pistols and carbines. We'll see how it does...

gcfennell

08-24-07, 15:08

Great guys!
Keep us posted as to all and any of your experiences.
Best regards,
George

Hawgleg44

08-24-07, 20:28

Breakfrees dosent smell that bad.

I used it years ago and didn't think it smelled bad at all. But, while I was on vacation, my S&W 642 got wet with salt water, so I needed some rust preventative and BreakFree was all the shop had. When I used it, it had the worst odor ever. I thought they changed their formula, but if nobody else thinks it smells bad, I must have a bad batch or something. This stuff makes cat piss smell good.

Shihan

08-24-07, 23:51

I used it years ago and didn't think it smelled bad at all. But, while I was on vacation, my S&W 642 got wet with salt water, so I needed some rust preventative and BreakFree was all the shop had. When I used it, it had the worst odor ever. I thought they changed their formula, but if nobody else thinks it smells bad, I must have a bad batch or something. This stuff makes cat piss smell good.

LMAO!

ChristopherM4

08-25-07, 05:14

Great guys!
Keep us posted as to all and any of your experiences.
Best regards,
George

George,
I also got my sample in a week or so ago, thanks! The AR has another 1k till it gets cleaned but i started using it on my 1911 and AK. So far so good but they don't see as many rounds as the AR. Will keep you updated.

Thanks,

Topher

toddackerman

08-26-07, 14:32

Pat_Rogers

08-26-07, 14:52

I believe it is the same product as Machine Gunners Lube, which we have at class. Seems to be pretty good stuff.

Erick Gelhaus

08-26-07, 22:18

fwiw, I fired approx 300 rds through a LaRue upper / LMT lower combo yesterday. Both were lubed with only LaRue's machinegunner lube.

I did not have any issues with function, etc.
Erick

Shihan

08-27-07, 02:35

I cleaned a few weapons with George's WS and the stuff does a great job of doing that. I still need to run some rounds through some of the guns that have had the WS applied to them but the ones that I have used them on feel much slicker than when I use Breakfree CLP on them. The WS is also quite abit thicker than Breakfree.

toddackerman

08-30-07, 18:43

Just got some "Machine Gunners Lube" frm Mark at LaRue, mainly becuase I wanted a small vile that would fit in my VLTOR Storage tube. It's $9.95 for what looks like a 3 oz bottle and ther small vile is an adder. with my 4th Dillo".

Interesting stuff. Not pertoleum based, and conatains Moly. Very slick, but not at thick as Georges new CLP.

So here is the question...anyone tried it? Can you put it on top opf a grease like MD XF-7 (which I love to do), and can anything say anything informative that is negative about the product. I think Pat Rogers noted thay have tried it it some classes.

I personally haven't tried it yet so I'm going to shut My Pie Hole!

By the way Mark....I'll trade 3 Dillos for a new green hat. It's my favorite! :)

Tack

DRich

08-30-07, 20:50

Pat Rogers mentions it in the big "Lube Thread"

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6443&page=3&highlight=lubrication

aloharover

08-30-07, 21:31

Miltec.

Stuff works great in a cold and wet environment and just as well in the super hot and dry.

We used it on the Rifles, M2, M590, M9, M249 and M240s with out a single problem.
Someone sent us a couple of cases and we ended up giving a bunch to the Kurds we were training for their AKs, PKMs, and SVDs.

The stuff worked with out issue.

toddackerman

08-30-07, 21:50

aloharover

08-30-07, 22:10

Did not know that.
I would think that Lewis in the winter would be wet enough, but the cold probably also inhibits the rust. Rust wasn't much of an issue in SWA even in the winter. Or maybe it's just how often we maintained weapons that it never came up.
Thanks for the additional data point.

STS

08-30-07, 22:37

And unfortunately it promoted rust faster than any other CLP tested independently in the last 5 years.

Sorry...but it's the truth.

Tack

Could you please provide us with the tests that you mention, or at least some sort of actual data to back up your statement.

KevinB

08-31-07, 01:17

Could you please provide us with the tests that you mention, or at least some sort of actual data to back up your statement.

+1 I used Militec in Afghan and Iraq - and while I dont think it is any better than CLP - I did not find it rusted abnormally either.

I merged this into Pat's thread as well.

Anyonme know if the Machine Gunners Lube is safe for postal shipping?
I'm currently using MPRo7 stuff, it works great for cleaning carbon and copper - and no major issues with their CLP - but I'm always looking for an edge.

Erick Gelhaus

08-31-07, 03:51

Kevin-
The M/G Lube I've gotten has showed up via UPS-but it came with other stuff. Sorry, can't give anymore help.

toddackerman

08-31-07, 09:32

Could you please provide us with the tests that you mention, or at least some sort of actual data to back up your statement.

In all honesty, this was over 5 years ago when Militec was touted as "The Cat's Ass"...but I wouldn't post it if it wasn't true and if i didn't see it for myself. Nails rusted in 3 days submerged in water with Militec applied to the parts.

Why would I make this up?. I'm just like everyone else looking for the best. and I don't work for anyone.

I think "Skagsig" on ARFCOM has all this data with pictures etc....maybe he could help or you could do a search their on many of the various products he has personallt tested.. Rust protection was one of the things that lead him to SLIK2000 from Militec. Militec is noted to be one of the worse protectants on the market for those who have tested it.

IF you want the unltimate, with proven results that are documented and you can easily find the dtata for yourself, contact MD Labs about their XF-7 grease. This stuff doesn't wash off, boil off, comeoff in Salt Water and stays where you put it.

Sorry that's the best i can do because i have already gone through my own trial and research years ago, and didn't save it. No need to. I do know that Pat Rogers is an advocate of MD XF-7 as an underlube for bolts and friction areas with a CLP apllied over it to keep it wet.

One thing I think is important is that there has yet to be a product that has been released that does a great job at Cleaning, Lubing and Protecting in one product. That's whay I use Shooters Choice for solvent, XF-7 for ube and protectant with a coat of CLP on it (XF-7) for high wear areas like Bolt Carrier Groups, Bolts, and Gas Rings.

For example, clean your barrel and chamber with CLP, and then redo it with Shooters choice or another "Specialized" bore cleaner, and you'll see quite a lack of cleaning. If I want the bore real clean, I use JB Bore paste that never ceases to amaze me how much more criud it removes than even Shooters Choice. It's just kind of a pain to use.

The search continues for that one "Secret Sauce" that is #1 at everything. I don't think it exists. Solvent properties are so much different thna lube and protectant properties.

Another good source is to contact "QUIB" on ARFCOM for his inputs. He's a big CLP fan and uses several of their products.

Hope this helps.

Tack

jmart

08-31-07, 10:11

In all honesty, this was over 5 years ago when Militec was touted as "The Cat's Ass"...but I wouldn't post it if it wasn't true and if i didn't see it for myself. Nails rusted in 3 days submerged in water with Militec applied to the parts.

Why would I make this up?. I'm just like everyone else looking for the best. and I don't work for anyone.

I think "Skagsig" on ARFCOM has all this data with pictures etc....maybe he could help or you could do a search their on many of the various products he has personallt tested.. Rust protection was one of the things that lead him to SLIK2000 from Militec. Militec is noted to be one of the worse protectants on the market for those who have tested it.

Tack

I look at these tests as a data point, but little else. Using mild steel as a test medium doesn't make sense since that's not used in ARs. Instead we use chrome-lined bores, parkerized steel with higher chromium contents to begin with, anodized aluminum, etc. We also don't store our weapons under water, in salt bath cabinets or what have you.

Maybe in an absolute sense Militec has less protection abilities than other products but it's still probably good enough for 99% of end users. I don't think I've ever read of an end user account where a Militec-protected weapon rusted. Maybe they're out there, I just don't recall reading about them.

Work in the maritimes/coastal region, maybe look at something else. Sweat a lot and use an IWB, look at something else. But I wouldn't eliminate Militec from consideration simply because it tested poorly in some back yard, ill-conceived test. Evaluate it based on it it's other merits and shortfalls (cleaning ability, lubing ability).

toddackerman

08-31-07, 10:15

I look at these tests as a data point, but little else. Using mild steel as a test medium doesn't make sense since that's not used in ARs. Instead we use chrome-lined bores, parkerized steel with higher chromium contents to begin with, anodized aluminum, etc. We also don't store our weapons under water, in salt bath cabinets or what have you.

Maybe in an absolute sense Militec has less protection abilities than other products but it's still probably good enough for 99% of end users. I don't think I've ever read of an end user account where a Militec-protected weapon rusted. Maybe they're out there, I just don't recall reading about them.

Work in the maritimes/coastal region, maybe look at something else. Sweat a lot and use an IWB, look at something else. But I wouldn't eliminate Militec from consideration simply because it tested poorly in some back yard, ill-conceived test. Evaluate it based on it it's other merits and shortfalls (cleaning ability, lubing ability).

I agree with many of your points.

It's your weapon, your environment and your call.

For the average civilian shooter who doesn't need the "Extreme" properties...your probably gtg.

Be safe!

Tack

hags

08-31-07, 12:39

here's a link to a test done by Brownells, I thought this might be of some interest.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=503

toddackerman

08-31-07, 14:36

here's a link to a test done by Brownells, I thought this might be of some interest.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=503

Good data! Thank you!!!

Again, preventative, cleaning and lubing are 3 different animals. For example, WD-40 works great a Watwwer Diplacement, but would be short lived in a high cycle firearm like an AR.

Here's some data on MD XF-7. Clearly a great lube and protectant. I've used it for several years now, and apply a generous amount of CLP on the Bolt, Gas Rings, BCG and BCG Raceway and the gun runs like a "Raped Ape"!. Occaisionally after a few hundred rounds I'll apply a couple of drops of CLP in the Bolt Gas Relief holes (which are right over the Gas Rings) and kepp it flying.

MD LABS XF-7
Our Products: MD Labs XF7

SKU:
Extreme Waterproof Weapon Lube. More details..

Product Details
FOR WEAPONS, TACTICAL KNIVES AND TOOLS
WATER-PROOF LUBRICANT
FOR EXTREME CONDITIONS
SPECIFICALLY FORMULATED TO LUBRICATE AND PREVENT CORROSION.
WORKS AT HIGH TEMPERATURES AND STAYS ON EVEN IN BOILING SALT WATER.

Formulated specifically for protecting modern weapons and tools in extremely adverse conditions, MD Labs XF7 is a truly water-proof grease with extraordinary powers of lubrication and corrosion inhibition. XF7 will not run/melt/drip even when heated; it remains where you applied it and continues to protect at high cyclic rates and at high temperatures of up to 500 degrees F. XF7 guards metal surfaces in marine and under-water environments; it continues to work even in boiling salt water. Long after conventional oils or greases have washed/melted/boiled off, XF7 is still right where you put it, functioning at optimal level. Use non-toxic, non-staining, non-corrosive, O-ring friendly MD Labs XF7 for your high performance weapons, tactical knives, and tools because they deserve the best.

Enjoy!

Tack

AR15barrels

08-31-07, 15:55

here's a link to a test done by Brownells, I thought this might be of some interest.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=503

This makes me feel good about using WD-40 as a protective oil before packing and shipping.
Been doing it for years with never a rusted part...

Shihan

08-31-07, 16:34

I have used George's Weapon Shield CLP and im quite impressed so far. It cleans great and as well or better than nasty Hoppes. I also have done some shooting with it in some fussy 1911's one of them normally needs lube reapplied at around 200-300 rounds to keep it from malfunctioning. I have 500 rounds through her without a hitch. This is after several range trips with no lube being reapplied and its still wet. I think I will push it until I get a malfunction. I have no idea of how well it protects? Maybe one of you guys who recieved a sample can ive it a try?

aloharover

08-31-07, 19:22

Anyone running Kroil?

Heavy Metal

08-31-07, 19:30

Kroil is a penetrant, it is useful for cleaning and for breaking things lose. It is far, far too thin for a lube.

TheGhostRider

08-31-07, 20:50

While I know that better oil is available, just out of curiosity, what is the general consensus on the use of Synthetic Motor oil as a lube only?

toddackerman

08-31-07, 22:21

Anyone running Kroil?

I have a lot of experience with Kroil and it should only ne used to unstick rusted parts (advertised as the oil that "Creeps") or added to a solvent (1 part t0 3) like Shooters Choice to clean barrels with. I learned this from the Bench Rest Fraternity.

I doesn't have the weight needed to be a lube for semi auto actions, and it's capacity to lube starts weak and diminishes rapidly. Better to use something heavier a a lube oke CLP, XF-7 with CLP on top of it, SLIK2000 etc.

That;s what I know about Kroil.

Tack

Robb Jensen

09-01-07, 06:02

I've never used Kroil as a lube, I use it like Liquid Wrench. Sometimes I soak down a FSB and taper pins on ones that are really stubborn to move.

For lube I normally use Machingunners Lube/10-8 lube, Militec-1, Slip2000 (havent' tried the extreme stuff yet). I use which ever my eyes and hand find first on my work bench, it all works well for me.

I've received a sample of Weapon Shield from George Fennell and have been running it exclusively in one of my ARs on in my STI Limited pistol. I like it so far.

Robb Jensen

09-01-07, 16:42

+1 I used Militec in Afghan and Iraq - and while I dont think it is any better than CLP - I did not find it rusted abnormally either.

I merged this into Pat's thread as well.

Anyonme know if the Machine Gunners Lube is safe for postal shipping?
I'm currently using MPRo7 stuff, it works great for cleaning carbon and copper - and no major issues with their CLP - but I'm always looking for an edge.

Kevin,
Check with Helmie at I-Shot I think he's an international shipper. If you need his phone number PM me and I'll give you it.

Robb

toddackerman

09-02-07, 00:19

What is this "Lubrication" you all speak off.......??;)

Vagisil...you should try it, I know Pat has and it worked!!

Ekie

09-30-07, 23:07

Is there a source other then Matthew Cox in regards to the Government dust test of M16A4 and M4 Carbines?

sns3guppy

10-01-07, 01:40

A few thoughts after reading the thread. My experience won't hold a candle to most folks here, so take it with a grain of salt. First of all, thanks for the thread...very informative.

I read comments early on about usng teflon in lubricants. Teflon impregnated in materials as a surface coating has useful, limited properties; works great on frying pans, worthless in engines and most moving parts. Teflon does not actualy impregnate or soak into metal, or even fill the "pores." It doesn't bond with metal except at very high temperatures...and no weapon reaches them. The lubes that claim to impregnatethe metal surfaces at operatin temperature, particularly those using teflon, are grossly misleading. False claims.

Kroil was recently mentioned. I've used it alot in an aircraft maintenance capacity, and I've used it on firearms, too. Kroil is a great product, but like many, it does have it's limitations.

The use of the word "mineral oil" was used early on, and I think there are some misconceptions. Petroleum based oils are mineral oils. They come in many forms, but nonsynthetic motor oil is mineral oil, 3 in 1 oil is mineral oil...very different properties, but still mineral oil. Refering to an oil as mineral oil may be technically correct, but doesn't address the properties of the oil in the least. Only a discussion of it's formulation can do that.

I've heard a lot of shooters talking about using motor oil. Yes, it's wet, and yes, it's slippery...but motor oil is designed for a very different useage, and for different properties tha what you have in mind in firearms. It's not the best choice. Any lube is better than none, but it's not a particuarly good choice...and it doesn't protect your firearm particularly well from corrosion.

The best corrosion protection you can use isn't wiping the weapon down with oil and leaving it...it's wiping it down frequently and keeping a close eye on a well maintained weapon. Regular maintenance, and that may include just wiping the weapon down to remove dirt, dust, finger prints, lint, etc...will do as much for corrosion as storing it in oil. Having said that, I was in Papua New Guinea when the Bougainville Republican Army forced local villiage leaders to reveal the location of a Japanese weapons cache, when they recovered some weapons which had been stored for a very long time in...used motor oil. Still, n nothing beats regular preventative maintenance.

I can't speak to the efficacy of the different specialty lubes here. On some weapons that I've put into long term storage, I've used aircraft preservatives and corrosion preventatives in the past with good effect, largely because I had them available; ACF-50 has worked well, and Corrosion X. Neither are perfect, but have served well.

WD 40 is a solvent, not a lubricant, and is not a preservative, despite it's claims.

I haven't ever shot my firearms for thousands of rounds without cleaning. So I can't make claims regrding that kind of abuse to any products I've used. Every time I discharge a firearm, I clean it, and it stays stored clean. It's so ingrained I don't think I'd get to sleep at night if I let the weapon go to bed dirty.

I have militech and have used it, but not for one second to I lay any stock to claims that it penetrates metal or even treats metal. It doesn't, and can't. It may serve as a lubricant, though I am skeptical as to how effective it may be...it's only real advantage may be a tendency to not attract so much dust...but it's so darn thin...maybe better than nothing, but who wants to stick with better than nothing?

I've been going with tetra gun grease for a while now, and it has served well. I'd like to hear from experienced hands what their thoughts are on that.

If you want dry lube, try boeing lube some time. It comes in a stick form.

I fully agree with generous lubrication; always have. Thanks again for the thread and the read.

DrMark

10-01-07, 08:02

Is there a source other then Matthew Cox in regards to the Government dust test of M16A4 and M4 Carbines?

Matthew Cox probably based his article on information from the Public Affairs Officer of the testing agency.

I haven't seen all of the reports on the subject testing, but one I did see was Limited Distribution (DoD only). It's reasonable to expect future reports on the topic to be similarly limited.

Therefore I would not expect to see another source or much further info, unless/until the testing agency decides to disseminate the information.

Liquid Rhino

12-17-07, 14:09

This is a great thread... very informative. Can't believe I missed it earlier! :)

ebisu

12-25-07, 08:49

Great Thread. I have been in the Army for 6 years now, I am on my 3rd year in Iraq. Durring the invasion of Iraq the only thing we could get was millitary issue CLP. We constantly had issues with it and ran out. We then used 15/40 oil. This was a temporary fix but would not reccomend if you will be shooting a lot. It does lube well, but gets sticky with the carbon. Durring the 2nd deployment in 2005 we were given miltec lube. This worked a lot better than the CLP but was not the answer we need. It cleaned well but didn't lube well. This is contrary to what some others have said. I use my weapon a lot over here as a scout/sniper. My primary weapon being and M4. This tour I got a shipment of slip 2000 EWL and it is the best so far. I also received the bolt cleaner they use. It works wonders on these old weapons and cleans the bolts better than anything else I have used. I would reccomend slip 2000 to anyone out there. The key to any of this is to clean and relube your rifle after every firefight. or shooting for those not over here. I keep a bottle of slip 2000 in my vest at all times. I relube it immediatly after a firefight untill I can clean my rifle again.

Just a few points from over here in Iraq I thought I would share. What else am I to do on Christmas when the generals won't let me go out on patrol.

Scouts Out
Chad

recon

01-01-08, 11:47

Shooters choice for cleaning and FP-10 for the lube. Sounds like slip-2000 is worth a try.

LawDog

01-11-08, 18:35

Is anyone selling the slip200 EWL other than the slip2000 website? I am trying to buy a few things all together and dont want to pay 9.95 for shipping.

cqbdriver

01-11-08, 20:24

Is anyone selling the slip200 EWL other than the slip2000 website? I am trying to buy a few things all together and dont want to pay 9.95 for shipping.

midwayusa

John_Wayne777

01-11-08, 20:45

Is anyone selling the slip200 EWL other than the slip2000 website? I am trying to buy a few things all together and dont want to pay 9.95 for shipping.

I bought my supply of EWL from MidwayUSA.

Check out G&R Tactical too...they might carry it.

recon

01-11-08, 20:46

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=556143&t=11082005

LawDog

01-12-08, 09:42

Thanks they were out of stock with no back orders. (Midway) I may just have to bite the bullet so to speak.

cqbdriver

01-13-08, 08:12

16oz bottle in stock

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=311938&t=11082005

gyp_c2

01-13-08, 10:17

...I'm in the wrong line of work...
That's a lot of money for 16oz of anything...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Jay Cunningham

01-13-08, 10:21

...I'm in the wrong line of work...
That's a lot of money for 16oz of anything...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

I know some guys hate to think it, but sometimes a $1500 rifle requires a little bit in the way of maintenance. $38 does not sound like it would break the bank - but I am wild and crazy like that.

texasyid

01-14-08, 12:29

I just ordered some off of the slip 2000 website and was a litle upset at the price but if it is good stuff it is worth it. 16 oz. should last a long time for me anyway.

VA_Dinger

01-14-08, 12:44

markm

01-14-08, 13:08

2 drops of REM Oil is all you need! :p

Robb Jensen

01-14-08, 13:50

2 drops of REM Oil is all you need! :p

Not 87? ;)

markm

01-14-08, 15:25

Not 87? ;)

If you lose count, you have to start all over again!

Robb Jensen

01-14-08, 15:30

If you lose count, you have to start all over again!

I just dunk and hope it's right! ;)

markm

01-14-08, 15:36

I've almost gotten to that point.

Dunk the bolt, let it drip a little, and put it in the carrier. As a recovering dry gunner, I haven't got there yet.

jmart

01-14-08, 15:42

I’ve noticed something funny when it comes to opinions on “correct” lubrication of an AR lately.

It seems damn near everybody; other training instructors, forum members, etc have jumped on the “Lube your AR Heavily & Often” bandwagon since LAV & a few select others starting teaching the correct way, had articles published, posted threads, etc. Before all you got was the “dry lube”, “be cautious with lube”, “lubricate lightly”, and “Don’t over lube” points of view. The turn around has been very easy to notice if you has been paying attention. It would almost be funny if they had not pushed the exact opposite side of the issue so heavily for years and even very recently. Some of them were even very vocal about it before. It only goes to show who you should be listening to in the 1st place when it comes to weapon advice.

Choose wisely.

In case you don't know, Quib, who's a member here and also over at TOS, moderates the Cleaning and Maint forum. He has these cartoon extracts that are used to train the .mil types as far as I can tell. What's funny is that these cartoons pretty much illustrate that certain parts require generous lubrication, while others require light/moderate lubrication. So that's what the "book" says.

But somewhere along the way, folks have interpreted these, or adopted a different standard of "light" lubing. Somewhere along the way that became the norm. Then enter Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, etc. who espouse generous lubing. And it's interpreted as the new protocol, yet all they are saying is exactly what Quib's cartoons have said all along.

gyp_c2

01-14-08, 21:10

$38 does not sound like it would break the bank - but I am wild and crazy like that.
Anything that keeps that dang thing runnin' is worth whatever it costs...
OT a little but, how is the Weaponshield doing for those who are using it?
I never got my sample but I did like his previous product.
After I ran out of TW-25, I tried some Tetra and it seems to work ok...I use the grease and some liquid when it's warm, but leave the grease off this time of year and just wet-lube everything...I haven't seen the Slip locally, but I'll try it when I do...hopefully in the small bottle.
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

EricCartmann

01-14-08, 22:35

+1 for those who said use whatever but just apply it liberally and often.

Cleaning:
For cleaning my guns I like non-chlorinated brake cleaner. I can buy this stuff by the case from my local auto store for about $2 a can. It is safe on rubber, paint, and plastics. It takes off everything except for the toughest carbon build up. For that I just use regular break cleaner, a toothbrush and a lot of elbow grease.

Lubing:
For lubing, I don't know. To me it all seems the same. I use CLP and Synthetic Motor oil mostly because that is what I have on hand. I really try to use CLP as much as I can because it is what I have a lot of and I want to get rid of it. Bought a whole bunch awhile back and 3 years later I still have a lot. I just don't want to throw it away. :)

My experience with what the Army told us:
When I was in the Army (1 enlistment in the Early 90's), and stationed at Wildflecken Germany, we were told to apply the lube liberally. As the liberal lubing helped keep the gun working in the cold weather. But right before we got deployed to Desert Shield, I remember the company commander telling us that the Army's position was to use light coat of lube while in the desert. Told us that all the extra lube would just be magnet to more sand, and eventually so much sand would collect where our guns would cease to operate. We did not really question it and complied because that is what we were told.

Quib

01-16-08, 17:07

In case you don't know, Quib, who's a member here and also over at TOS, moderates the Cleaning and Maint forum. He has these cartoon extracts that are used to train the .mil types as far as I can tell. What's funny is that these cartoons pretty much illustrate that certain parts require generous lubrication, while others require light/moderate lubrication. So that's what the "book" says.

But somewhere along the way, folks have interpreted these, or adopted a different standard of "light" lubing. Somewhere along the way that became the norm. Then enter Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, etc. who espouse generous lubing. And it's interpreted as the new protocol, yet all they are saying is exactly what Quib's cartoons have said all along.

I’ve posted the Army’s stance on lubing starting from the early 60’s up through to present day. And the standard has never changed, it has always been generous lube in those areas that need it. No where that I have read, has the Army said the opposite.

It’s the leadership and the chain of command that are instilling in their soldiers these bad habits regarding lubing.

m700m

01-16-08, 18:19

John_Wayne777

01-16-08, 18:34

i understand that an ar should be ran wet, but when to lube? i am now using slip 2000 and it still ends up in the buffer tube, each time i take them to the range i lube and fire my ar's, when i get home i clean and lube them, take them out in a week and they still need lube. so, how can i keep an ar on stand-by(fully loaded), keep it wet and not contaminate my ammunition?

Uhhh........

I've never really had that problem. Generally when you lubricate generously some of it does migrate to other parts of the weapon (depending on how you store it) but it's never gotten to the point that my bolt and carrier end up dry because the weapon has been sitting on it's butt.

The weapon doesn't need to be dripping wet for most applications...just a good layer of lube on all the important stuff.

markm

01-17-08, 09:01

Yeah. The lube shouldn't be getting past the back of the firing pin. I store mine buttstock down and have never had lube get into the buffer t00b.

Are you lubing the inside of the upper receiver or something? Or soaking the outside surface of the carrier? If so that's just lube wasted. :confused:

m700m

01-17-08, 15:14

yes demigod, soaking the bolt and carrier. must be using to much. i will be using less from here on. thank you guys for the replies. M4carbine.net is my only source for ar info.

markm

01-17-08, 15:19

yes demigod, soaking the bolt and carrier. must be using to much. i will be using less from here on. thank you guys for the replies. M4carbine.net is my only source for ar info.

I use a little grease on the carrier rails to provide the basic amount of lube needed. Keeping the juices flowing inside the carrier and on the bolt is a wiser use of lube.

I've seen shooters with soaking wet upper receivers (on the inside)... that lube is doing nothing for you since there are no moving parts benefiting from it.

m700m

01-17-08, 16:56

demigod, when you speak of grease, would a standard gun grease work? i have outers gun grease and some non petroleum based castrol gtx barring grease. would you suggest a brand/type? anyone else have a preference in gun grease? i have never used any thing but oil, so i could use some options.

Failure2Stop

01-18-08, 05:09

I avoid grease in ARs, as when used in other than range conditions grease attracts and holds things I would rather not be in my action.

CLP worked fine for years, but SLIP 2000 has become my lube of choice in the past few years. Others may work as well or better (as claimed by some), but I am perfectly happy with it, so haven't changed. I like the SLIP Extreme lube, but went through the free bottle too quickly (lubed several guns, and after all cleanings) to really say if I found it to be significantly better.

If you are not using the rifle in operational conditions, however, a little grease on the rails of the BCG won't hurt you, and may reduce lubrication needs of the BCG.

Remember though, one of the significant areas that need lube is the gas rings. Grease won't work there, but virtually any liquid will keep you running, the only question will be for how long. SLIP 2000 stays longer than CLP does, though CLP works longer than sunscreen.

YMMV

sinister

01-18-08, 06:37

I'll use Breakfree if there's nothing else, but I don't think it's a very good lubricant. The Army wanted it to do three things well, and got something that doesn't do anything particularly better.

I tried the Militec and it cokes up so badly I either gave away the sample bottles I had or just threw it in the trash.

I've tried Mobil 1, which is good but I didn't like the smell.

I've defaulted back to Tetra (which smells nice and works well) or plain GI LSA in the plastic OD squeeze bottle (which I replenish from a 1-quart can I bought years ago).

The Army Times article written by Matt Cox is interesting but his writing always seem to take the side of "See how screwed up the Army is?" I have no idea what the test protocols were, but that much dust would have also put a hurting on a GI under the same conditions.

About the worst dust storms I ran into here in Iraq during the first part of the war was four or five days of baby-powder fine dust on EVERYTHING (in fact my boots and old Desert Combat Uniforms took on a reddish tinge). Really fine, gritty stuff.

The machinegunners took to keeping a .50 cal can half-full of JP-8 or diesel fuel so they could do a quick bolt-slosh to get off the grit. They didn't mind guys using the can for M4/M16 bolt carrier groups or M9 frames, slides, and mag shells.

At the CQC course at Bragg in 88 and 89 we'd shoot our Colt 723s a lot, every day, lubing occasionally and wiping them off in the evening, with a full cleaning every Friday afternoon for the weekend. Lube seemed more critical than cleaning when you're constantly shooting.

Anybody got a copy of the GI Vietnam M16 comic manual who can scan it and post the lube instructions? Those were pretty good and simple if I remember correctly.

markm

01-18-08, 07:44

I'll use Breakfree if there's nothing else, but I don't think it's a very good lubricant. The Army wanted it to do three things well, and got something that doesn't do anything particularly better.

I've found CLP to be pretty effective in removing bolt/carrier carbon if you put some on after a shoot..... let it soak for, at least, the ride home. Sometimes I clean the weapon the next day, and I can just wipe 98% of that hard ass carbon off of the bolt.

I pull the charging handle half way back and drop a few drops of break free in each exhaust port on the carrier (to get the stuff behind the bolt where the carbon is the worst) It makes cleaning the bolt group a lot easier.

Credit to QUIB for letting me know that CLP fights carbon.

John_Wayne777

01-18-08, 08:24

I've defaulted back to Tetra (which smells nice and works well)

I hate to take issue with an IP on this site, but I just can't let that one pass.

I must vehemently disagree with the idea that Tetra smells nice. It smells like somebody passed gas. I've had to literally let people smell my weapon to convince them it wasn't me.

It does work pretty good, however.....:D

DrMark

01-18-08, 08:31

Tetra... It smells like somebody passed gas.

"Everybody loves his own brand."

-- Fat Bastard

sinister

01-18-08, 08:37

:D

Yeah, I understand the older Tetra smelled like ass, which is why they had to scent it so shooters wouldn't gag!

John_Wayne777

01-18-08, 09:45

:D

Yeah, I understand the older Tetra smelled like ass, which is why they had to scent it so shooters wouldn't gag!

Well hell's bells! I didn't know they had scented Tetra now! That's what I get for buying lube in bulk....I've still got two or three unopened bottles of what I assume is the old stinky stuff.

I wonder if you can get it in "New Car" smell.....or pina-colada! Chicks dig pina-colada.

Jay Cunningham

01-18-08, 11:21

Well hell's bells! I didn't know they had scented Tetra now!

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa144/omgwftbbq/fabulous.jpg

graffex

01-18-08, 12:33

Rhino and Shihan,

Can you give us a update as to how your weapons are doing since switching to WS-CLP?

Quib

01-18-08, 12:55

Credit to QUIB for letting me know that CLP fights carbon.

I currently have a bolt cleaning post running in the Maintenance and Cleaning Forum on TOS.

rhino

01-18-08, 13:05

Rhino and Shihan,

Can you give us a update as to how your weapons are doing since switching to WS-CLP?

Not much to report since my first use in the class the first weekend in October of 07 ... from my records:

21-Oct-07: 20 rounds in a rifle side match after a USPSA pistol match; 100% function.

05-Nov-07: 90 rounds practicing shooting offhand at 35 yards at a 3x5 inch index card; 100% function.

17-Nov-07: 10 rounds on a practice run of the STRIKE Tactical qualification for Level I rifle (I didn't pass it in the class, although I did pass the pistol qualification for Level I); 100% function and I "passed," even though we were shooting a few yards back from the specified distance. I would have fired more rounds that day, but I wanted to end a success (and knowing I could do it on demand).

So ... only 120 rounds since that class, no problems. I did add lube after the class (07-Oct-07), but I don't recall or have a record of adding any since then. Given the low round count, I don't know what we can infer from my experience, but I think it's significant that the rifle sat dirty in for all the time in between those sessions with no attention, and still did fine.

Certainly a high volume in a short period of time is one way to test, but the fact that I can leave it the way it is and it still works is good to know. This may not be an issue for people with meticulous cleaning habits, but I'm not among them.

John_Wayne777

01-18-08, 13:51

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa144/omgwftbbq/fabulous.jpg

I'd better eject before the dump pouch jokes start.....

godsmack

01-20-08, 16:40

here's a link to a test done by Brownells, I thought this might be of some interest.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=503

Wow, thanks for that link. I was shocked at how well the wd40 held up, may have to get some for long term gun storage.

recon

01-20-08, 19:22

Hmmm. I remember another report that showed WD-40 promoting rust similar to this same test. Go figure. Still though WD-40 would be the last thing I would use on a firearm for storage!

godsmack

01-20-08, 19:29

Hmmm. I remember another report that showed WD-40 promoting rust similar to this same test. Go figure. Still though WD-40 would be the last thing I would use on a firearm for storage!

Same here, allways thought that wd40 was only for people that didnt know any better, but it seemed to protect a lot better than breakfree which was my first choice.

ra2bach

01-20-08, 20:12

I have been told by someone who's opinion I respect that all they use is a product called Eezox. It seems to be used like a lot of the CLP's but I'm not sure that's what it should be called.

anyway, this guy swears by Eezox and I am curious if anyone else has tried it and their opinion.

recon

01-20-08, 21:44

Got this from another site. Different kind of test.

Just a little more info of why I use FP-10

PROCEDURES & RESULTS

Under carefully controlled laboratory test conditions, this basic test was performed with a variety of lubricants for a 60 second dine period and under a 266.5 lb. roll to ring pressure. The method of

measurement devised to indicate wear consisted of measuring the length and width of a “wear mark” (see drawing below) and multiplying them together and multiplying by 1,000 to get an index number. The tables below allow a comparison of index numbers (higher numbers indicating more wear) of the various lubricants used in this test.

FORCE
WEAR
SCAR
SCAR

PRODUCT NAME
(LBS.)
INDEX NO.
LENGTH
WIDTH

Super Lube jel (Bohemia, NY) PTFE
266.5
102.9
0.4200”
0.2450”

TRI-FLON (oil w/PTFE)
266.5
79.6
0.3723”
0.2138”

Kleeroil (Am. Writing Ink Co.)
266.5
77.3
0.3738”
0.2068”

Koppers/S.A. All Weather Weapons Lube
266.5
73.8
0.3730”
0.1979”

RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube
266.5
72.1
0.3564”
0.2024”

Kleenbore Formula 3 oil
266.5
71.1
0.3649”
0.1948”

Rem-oil w/Teflon (PTFE)
266.5
68.3
0.3478”
0.1965”

Hoppes lube oil
266.5
67.4
0.3507”
0.1922”

Parker-Hale Express Gun Oil
266.5
65.0
0.3495”
0.1859”

G-96 Gun Treatment (aerosol)
266.5
62.8
0.3358”
0.1871”

Military Lube oil AXS-72 (obsolete)
266.5
58.8
0.3255”
0.1807”

RNI Liquid Gunsmith
266.5
56.6
0.3 189”
0.1775”

WD-40
266.5
55.2
0.3060”
0.1805”

TES-75

FORCE
WEAR
SCAR
SCAR

PRODUCT NAME
(LBS.)
INDEX
NO.
LENGTH
WIDTH

3 in 1 “Plus” (aerosol)
266.5
54.4
0.3230”
0.1683”

Rusty Duck
266.5
52.7
0.3110”
0.1694”

Pro-Shot All Weather Gun Oil
266.5
52.7
0.3115”
0.1692”

Break Free LP (lube/preservative) PTFE
266.5
499
0.3037”
0.1642”

LSA Springfield Armory
266.5
49.3
0.3000”
0.1643”

Sports Lube Rod & Gun Oil
266.5
43.6
0.2890”
0.1507”

Kleenbore Super Lube (aerosol)
266.5
48.4
0.2930”
0.1652”

Hornaday “ONE SHOT” (aerosol)
266.5
39.9
0.2664”
0.1498”

Birchwood-Casey “Sheath”
266.5
34.6
0.2530”
0.1366”

Break Free CLP (PTFE)
266.5
30.2
0.2495”
0.1212”

TUFOIL (PTFE)
266.5
27.9~
0.2235”
0.1249”

Molube-Alloy (moly disulfide) 777-1
266.5
27.8
0.2301”
0.1210”

Blue Spectre Gun Oil (moly disulfide)
266.5
24.8
0.2157”
0.1148”

Tetra-Gun Oil (fluorocarbon synthetic)
266.5
6.6
0.1045”
0.0634”

TRI-FLOW (PTFE)
266.5
6.2
0.1050”
0.0590”

Eezox Synthetic Gun Oil
266.5
2.0
0.0625”
0.0325”

Pro-lix Dry Film Lube
266.5
7.0
0.1061”
0.0670”

Tetra Gun Grease (synthetic)
266.5
2.1
0.0590”
0.0359”

Minuteman High Tech Gun Oil
266.5
3.3
0.0749”
0.0443”

Firepower FP-10 Lubricant EliteTM
266.5
0.9
0.0390”
0.0240”

ra2bach

01-21-08, 12:10

very interesting chart, thanks for posting.

one thing that gives me pause when seeing some of these "rankings" or results tests of products is the date they were done. a lot of what people are taking as gospel (such as the various CLPs) is old news and better products have emerged since then. this test seems to avoid that by providing the performance standard which, realistically, any emerging product could be compared with.

and btw, I noticed that EEZOX was ranked at very near the top in performance and would seem to bear out the opinion my friend has that it is a superior product.

However, I am curious as how to possibly scale this index so that it doesn't simply exist out there by itself. In other words, yes, the products with the higher Index numbers were worse performers than the lower numbers but what does that spread indicate possible to the universe of all lubrication products available? the difference apparent between tested products is easy to scale but where does the scale begin? Is the bottom (worst) of the scale close to the performance of plain water? No lube at all?

I guess I'm wondering if the difference between the best and even the totally worst of these products tested is such a great (or small) difference versus, say, running a gun totally dry.

BTW, thank you ALL for the information contained in this thread, particularly, and for the entire site, as well. Even though I have quite a bit of experience with long guns and pistols, being a new AR shooter and new member here, I scanned the site for information for a long time before even registering. I learned early in life when it is appropriate to speak and when to allow the "adults" to discuss things without interrupting. Since I am not "expert" in anything, I am quite content to listen, observe, and only ask questions of the things that confuse me.

The depth of knowledge and experience here is quite profound and I am extremely thankful to have found that the tone here is one of professionalism rather than the "opinion" based tones of some "other" sites. thank you...

ra2bach