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Desiel
10-12-10, 10:27
Ok I have me an M4 with Surefire light now help me with optics. I think I would like to have a laser mounted on the quad rail but aren't they pretty high? What kind of optic would you guys/gals use? Could ya'll explain the different types of optics for me? Also what other accessories do you suggest?

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r221/vaughn_650r/DDM4.jpg?t=1286897214

smurfyc84
10-12-10, 11:15
First hello and welcome, looks like a nice rifle you got there. There are a bunch of threads on 'which optic', but they all boil down to one critical question:

What is the purpose of this rifle? Home defense? Long range shooting? Range toy? Taking classes?

Answering this will determine your needs. If its something you are going to be using for home defense and taking to courses then you will want something proven to take abuse and work. If it's just a range toy, then it's just depends on what you want.

I'm not going to get into 'you should get X', but I will explain a few different optics:

Red dot sight (RDS): Just like it sounds, unmagnified, single red dot. The hot choice right now is the Aimpoint T-1/H-1. Can be magnified 3x with an additional optic in either a flip or twist-on mount. There are lots of cheap options also but Aimpoints are the only ones that are going to be reccomended for serious use.

Holographic Sight: Similar to RDS, but will often have a red ring around the dot. Also, instead of a tube that you look through, it is more of a window that the sight is projected onto (hope I explained that well enough). Eotechs are the best example of these.

Then you've got your magnified optics, whether they are more traditional 'hunting' style non-illuminated, long range optics (Leupold, Zeiss), or the uber-tacticool, variable-magnification, illuminated reticle tactical scopes like the S&B Short-Dot or less-expensive Millet DMS-1.

Anyways, post up what you are going to use it for or do some searches on here for what you are interested in. Like I said, there are already lots of threads on this topic. If you haven't already, learn those irons really well. As for other accessories, wait until you determine a need before you buy a bunch of ninja gear to hang off your rifle. Happy hunting!

Desiel
10-12-10, 11:22
Lol @ ninja gear

Well here's kinda my thought on what I'm gonna use it for.
1. I do some Raccoon hunting and am gonna purchase a .22lr conversion so it will be used for that.
2. If it was reasonable I may do some deer or coyote hunting with it.
3. and of course while it's at home it will be in the bed room

sorry for the wide open answer but I guess I need something that is a good all arounder

bulbvivid
10-12-10, 11:34
Your question is almost too broad. Define your objectives and research from there. Almost every optic question has been covered on this sight before, so unless you're talking about something new to the market, you'll likely be able to find the information you need in past threads.

Unless it is a special-purpose rifle (for longer ranges or whatever), many here prefer Aimpoint RDSs, with some using Eotechs or ACOGs. The 3-gunners tend to go for 1-4 power scopes.

As far as accessories go, get what you need and nothing more. In order to find what you need, you need to define your objectives. Is it home defense, range use, training courses, 3-gun matches? Once your objective is defined, you can narrow down what gizmos you might need. One sure thing is a sling, but even that question can be answered only by defining your need and then trying things to see what works for you.

My under-qualified opinion is that less is more, so I try to have as little as possible hanging off the gun. I mostly use mine for 3-gun competition but I keep it as close to a SHTF gun as I can, with only an Eotech, iron sights, a two-point sling, and a BattleComp as accessories, though I guess you the MOE handguards and stock may count as accessories.

Once you define your objective, though, you have to get out and train to that end, and shoot a lot, to figure out what pieces and parts you need and what work best for you.

Desiel
10-12-10, 12:29
What do you folks think about the .22lr conversion kits?

bulbvivid
10-12-10, 13:01
I don't have a lot of experience with the conversion kits. I have an M261, and like a lot of things .22, it can be finicky with ammo. I pretty much got it so I can plink with my AR and work on transition drills without breaking the bank.

I haven't used it a whole lot, so I can't answer too many questions about it, but it is fun and useful for some things. I would think though, if I were hunting, I would just as soon have a 10-22 as an AR with a conversion kit.

Watrdawg
10-12-10, 15:14
I have an Eotech 553 on my weapon. I have been seriously looking at the Aimpoint T-1 though. One thing I really like about the Eotech is that the mount is built into the sight and that the aiming dot is only 1 MOA. Since the dot is only 1 MOA it makes it easier for me to be more accurate at longer ranges. The dot doesn't cover as much of the target as a 4 MOA dot would. By longer ranges I'm meaning 100 to 200 yards. The Aimpoint T-1 is 4 MOA. Battery life is a LOT longer with the Aimpoint though. It is also about half the weight, maybe even less. If the T-1 had a smaller aiming dot I would hop on it. The dot size may not even be that noticeable. So as of now I'm sticking with my Eotech 553. We'll see what happens inthe future though. Still kinda agonizing over the choice though.

Desiel
10-12-10, 15:24
Well I ordered my Stainless Steel .22 conversion from Brownells today, found a code online that gave me .99c shipping lol

smurfyc84
10-12-10, 15:53
Those .22lr conversions are a fun, cheap way to shoot, I love mine. Just remember for training purposes to start and end your sessions with full-powered ammo, so that you don't get too used to having no recoil to deal with as far as getting back on target. There are other schools of thought on that, but it's covered pretty well in other threads. Did you get the CMMG kit? Thats what I have, its been working pretty well with Black Dog mags and CCI target ammo. I dunno what to tell you about the optic decision, though. I just run irons myself right now until I have some pennies saved up for an Aimpoint, and my current rifle serves as my do-all gun until I get my BCM 14.5in ordered. See if you can find another shooter who has some toys you can try out and figure out what works best for you. Also, getting a good sling and taking some classes are going to get you way more value than anything else you can spend money on, as many senior members will quickly tell you. Read up, ask questions, and enjoy!

Desiel
10-12-10, 15:59
Yes I got the CMMG kit and I got the Stianless Steel because I figured it would be better...

Iraqgunz
10-13-10, 02:44
Some things that may help us help you.

What is your level of experience with the AR?

Do you have mags and ammo?

I suggest that you move your VFG forward and mount an X300 on there. Then I would buy a sling. I wouldn't be concerned about a red dot at this point.

If that upper or barrel is a CMMG I highly suggest that you consider using an H buffer and I would have someone check the chamber to ensure that it is 5.56 and not a .223.


Yes I got the CMMG kit and I got the Stianless Steel because I figured it would be better...

Desiel
10-13-10, 09:46
It's all Daniel Defense as it came from them when it was new. I am going to buy me some mags.

I am not experianced at all with ARs so I'm trying to learn what is good and what is not.

Ok where would you mount the 3x magnifier? Behind the rear sight or on some kind of riser so the Iron sights are still able to be used?

As far as a sling goes I'm thinking I like the Magpul Multi Mission Sling System so I can make it a single point attachment or I can use it like a regular rifle sling.

Hmac
10-13-10, 10:41
I have an Eotech 553 on my weapon. I have been seriously looking at the Aimpoint T-1 though. One thing I really like about the Eotech is that the mount is built into the sight and that the aiming dot is only 1 MOA. Since the dot is only 1 MOA it makes it easier for me to be more accurate at longer ranges. The dot doesn't cover as much of the target as a 4 MOA dot would. By longer ranges I'm meaning 100 to 200 yards. The Aimpoint T-1 is 4 MOA. Battery life is a LOT longer with the Aimpoint though. It is also about half the weight, maybe even less. If the T-1 had a smaller aiming dot I would hop on it. The dot size may not even be that noticeable. So as of now I'm sticking with my Eotech 553. We'll see what happens inthe future though. Still kinda agonizing over the choice though.

I have a T-1 and a few Eotechs. The weight reduction is nice (about 5-7 ounces over an OPMOD Eotech or similar), but I am bothered by having to look through a tube (and a small one at that) which impairs both-eyes-open shooting and have found I really prefer the Eotech reticle and 1 MOA dot. The T-1 is not really well-suited for use with a magnifier, which I would certainly want if I were going to try to shoot varmints. Furthermore, I don't care for the occasional internal reflections the T-1 provides in some lighting conditions.

For me, battery life is a non-issue. 500 hours of on-time is a long time, and all of my rifles have storage space for additional batteries in the event I should forget to check or replace the ones in there in a timely fashion. From a usability standpoint, I have to give the nod to any of the Eotechs, especially the XPS versions.

IMHO. YMMV.

smurfyc84
10-13-10, 13:19
It's all Daniel Defense as it came from them when it was new. I am going to buy me some mags.

I am not experianced at all with ARs so I'm trying to learn what is good and what is not.

Ok where would you mount the 3x magnifier? Behind the rear sight or on some kind of riser so the Iron sights are still able to be used?

As far as a sling goes I'm thinking I like the Magpul Multi Mission Sling System so I can make it a single point attachment or I can use it like a regular rifle sling.

DD is good stuff made by good people, thats a great rifle. Before I say anything else I will echo what Iraqgunz said and suggest that you stick with the irons, learn them really well and spend your money on ammo, mags and a sling. Then I would look at maybe taking a basic carbine class. You will learn more in one 2-day class taught by a reputable instructor than most people will in a year of shooting paper targets (or several years, even). After that you should know pretty well what you want.

To answer your question though, 3x Magnifiers go right behind the RDS, not behind the rear iron sight or anything like that. To use no magnification, or your backup sights, most magnifier mounts either rotate off to the side out of the way or twist off of the base. You'll have to google some pics of that to really see what I mean.

Desiel
10-13-10, 13:22
Thanks ok so I have already ordered the .22 conversion now I gotta get me a sling which is gonna have to be the Magpul, it's a lil higher than the others but it's more versatile.

Hmac
10-13-10, 13:26
...now I gotta get me a sling which is gonna have to be the Magpul, it's a lil higher than the others but it's more versatile.

I have found the MS-1 to also be more uncomfortable if you're going to be wearing it for hours a day. I agree it's more versatile, but I've found that I prefer a wider sling for confort. So far, I've been most happy with my padded VTAC.

Watrdawg
10-13-10, 13:28
I have the MAGPUL sling and like it's versatility but didn't like how narrow it was. The webbing is only about an inch wide. It dug into my shoulders when carrying my weapon. When adjusting the sling sometimes the webbing twisted in the buckle. I switched to a VCAS sling because the webbing was wider and a bit padded. Sling length adjusting is most similar to the MAGPUL sling and that was another reason choosing the VCAS. The MAGPUL is a lot noisier also. I'd still be using it if it was wider and quieter

Hmac
10-13-10, 13:28
Ok where would you mount the 3x magnifier? Behind the rear sight or on some kind of riser so the Iron sights are still able to be used?



This is lower third co-witness of the iron sights. The magnifier is cantilevered to be able to sit over the rear sight. Necessary for appropriate eye relief.

http://ic2.pbase.com/o6/60/230460/1/129054337.sgsBLKHv.noveskesbr2.jpg http://ic2.pbase.com/o6/60/230460/1/126402319.hSxXVLz7.fts.jpg

Desiel
10-13-10, 13:32
Ok I'll keep that in mind, I probably won't be wearing it for more than 3 or 4 hours but a paded sling would probably be more comfortable

smurfyc84
10-13-10, 14:02
Ok I'll keep that in mind, I probably won't be wearing it for more than 3 or 4 hours but a paded sling would probably be more comfortable

A padded sling isn't exactly necessary, if it is wide enough. Some people don't like padding because it can hang up on gear, but if you're not going to be wearing any then it is a non-issue. I personally like the non-padded VTAC for simplicity and quick adjustability, and it is a favorite among most of the users here. All you really need is a simple 2-point sling that you find comfortable. I was really happy with a cheap Blackhawk sling until I finally bought the VTAC. I don't have any experience with the Magpul sling so I can't comment, if you decide to get it let us know how it is.

Hmac
10-13-10, 14:30
A padded sling isn't exactly necessary, if it is wide enough. Some people don't like padding because it can hang up on gear, but if you're not going to be wearing any then it is a non-issue.

I agree - if the sling is wide enough the padding isn't necessary, but it's sure comfortable and it aids in preventing twisting. I haven't any gear hangup problems, but the most gear I ever wear is a simple chest harness with magazines across the front.

smurfyc84
10-13-10, 15:48
I agree - if the sling is wide enough the padding isn't necessary, but it's sure comfortable and it aids in preventing twisting. I haven't any gear hangup problems, but the most gear I ever wear is a simple chest harness with magazines across the front.

You're right, I should have said 'if you're not going to wear very much.' The most I ever wear is a simple chest rig with a small camelbak, but my rifle isn't heavy either so I've never felt a need for padding. YMMV.

Iraqgunz
10-13-10, 16:37
Desiel,

Since you are not experienced my recommendation to you is to forget about an RDS/ optic and magnifier. Learn to use the iron sights. Use that money and get some ammo and seek out some professional training. You won't learn what is good and what isn't on the net. You will find out by actually using the weapon and seeing what works best for you.

You'll probably get a lot of opinions about a lot of stuff. Just read through some of the threads in the AR forums and you'll see what I mean.



It's all Daniel Defense as it came from them when it was new. I am going to buy me some mags.

I am not experianced at all with ARs so I'm trying to learn what is good and what is not.

Ok where would you mount the 3x magnifier? Behind the rear sight or on some kind of riser so the Iron sights are still able to be used?

As far as a sling goes I'm thinking I like the Magpul Multi Mission Sling System so I can make it a single point attachment or I can use it like a regular rifle sling.

bulbvivid
10-13-10, 16:54
Desiel,

Since you are not experienced my recommendation to you is to forget about an RDS/ optic and magnifier. Learn to use the iron sights. Use that money and get some ammo and seek out some professional training. You won't learn what is good and what isn't on the net. You will find out by actually using the weapon and seeing what works best for you.

You'll probably get a lot of opinions about a lot of stuff. Just read through some of the threads in the AR forums and you'll see what I mean.

That's some solid advice. Larry Vickers is teaching a basic carbine class in Carthage, NC, on November 21. Another good thing about attending a class is you'll get a chance to check out a variety of equipment.

smurfyc84
10-13-10, 17:01
Desiel,

Since you are not experienced my recommendation to you is to forget about an RDS/ optic and magnifier. Learn to use the iron sights. Use that money and get some ammo and seek out some professional training. You won't learn what is good and what isn't on the net. You will find out by actually using the weapon and seeing what works best for you.

You'll probably get a lot of opinions about a lot of stuff. Just read through some of the threads in the AR forums and you'll see what I mean.


That's some solid advice. Larry Vickers is teaching a basic carbine class in Carthage, NC, on November 21. Another good thing about attending a class is you'll get a chance to check out a variety of equipment.

Yeah no kidding, take that to the bank. I wish someone would have knocked me on the head when I started buying guns and said 'buy once, cry once, keep it simple and take a class!'

Watrdawg
10-13-10, 20:04
I'm attending that class in Nov. Can't wait!

I've been shootin/hunting since I was in the 3rd grade. M16/M4 training all came from the military and owning a M4 a couple of times through the years. Even though this is a basic class it will be a good place to start and get proper training.

Desiel
10-13-10, 20:58
I guess I need to see if they are doing any classes in Knoxville or something... I guess I need to stick to the KISS lol... I do for sure want some panels for my rail any of you have some you wanna sell nice and cheap?

Beat Trash
10-13-10, 22:10
Desiel,

You have a good carbine. I can not stress enough what everyone else is saying. Get some magazines (I prefer the PMAG) and some ammunition. Get some good training.

Without good training and the ability to see what best suits your needs, you can quickly feel like a dog chasing your tail.

You can reach a point where different types or brands can serve well, but the difference comes down to the end user's preferences and specific needs.

Kind of like asking which super model you want to go out with tonight, the blond or the red head? Both can take care of your needs, just comes down to preference.

Desiel
10-13-10, 22:13
K got it lots of mags, ammo, and find a class ( I'm hoping they do one in Knoxville). I bought the CMMG 22 conversion kit so I could shoot the weapon alot with out such a big cost.

bkb0000
10-13-10, 23:03
when the hell did we start differentiating between "holo sights" and RDSs, and why would we bother? this is the second time i've heard someone make a distinction.

smurfyc84
10-14-10, 07:44
when the hell did we start differentiating between "holo sights" and RDSs, and why would we bother? this is the second time i've heard someone make a distinction.

Well, I wasn't try to make a distinction so much as give a quick layman's expaination as to what they are, and that they basically accomplish the same task. Many people do prefer one over the other as far as reticle, ergos and battery life, and the two are indeed fundamentally different technology. It may not be much of a difference to the end user but it is enough to confuse the uninitiated. Regardless, it looks like the OP got the idea and won't be buying an optic anytime soon in favor of ammo and training.

bulbvivid
10-14-10, 09:01
K got it lots of mags, ammo, and find a class ( I'm hoping they do one in Knoxville). I bought the CMMG 22 conversion kit so I could shoot the weapon alot with out such a big cost.

You'll likely have a difficult time finding classes in K-town. Oak Ridge may have some going on, but it will likely be some kind of service-rifle stuff. You may want to contact Tracker722 on this board. He's down that way and may be able to help you out.

If you can find a way to swing it, the Vickers class would be a great place to start. I don't think he teaches basic classes very often, so it's a great opportunity.

mikeross506
10-24-10, 07:49
Regarding your pursuit for optics, a question that is rarely asked is: What is your budget? It isn't an imperative issue for many but there are alot of us that it is a HUGE factor. We're talking sights that range from $200 used to $2000 new.

A-Bear680
11-24-10, 10:02
Take a look at the "Vickers Shooting Method Regional Training ' subforum. There are likely to be classes coming up within an easy day's drive from your house. Many of the selected Regional Training instructors are regulars on M4Carbine.net . Might not hurt to take Mas Ayoob's Rules of Engagment for Civilians as well , AFAIK , no grad has ever been convicted of a bad shoot. One poor guy did get a year for possession of an undocumented handgun in Mass. , but was found not guilty of murder. The incident never would have gone to trial in most places.

After your first class , run a search for Aimpoint C3 and Hensoldt ( magnifier ).

308murder
01-26-11, 17:32
I love my aimpoint T-1 works very well quite accurate out to couple hundred yards. Liked it better than EOtech because of the battery life on the red dot.

Hmac
01-26-11, 17:43
I love my aimpoint T-1 works very well quite accurate out to couple hundred yards. Liked it better than EOtech because of the battery life on the red dot.I just carry extra batteries.

308murder
01-26-11, 17:45
I wont have to change mine for about a year, wouldnt you rather have an extra firing pin, bolt etc. instead of having to carry batteries, lol.

Hmac
01-26-11, 17:53
I wont have to change mine for about a year, wouldnt you rather have an extra firing pin, bolt etc. instead of having to carry batteries, lol.

How big do you think a CR123 battery is?

308murder
01-26-11, 17:58
bigger than a CR 2032, I was guessing that you were keeping the batteries inside that magpul stock which can also fit spare parts. Thats the only reason I asked.

Hmac
01-26-11, 18:38
bigger than a CR 2032, I was guessing that you were keeping the batteries inside that magpul stock which can also fit spare parts. Thats the only reason I asked.
Between my stock and my grip, I have room to carry an entire AR15 ;).

I do have all of those prescribed extra parts in my range bag but I see no need to carry any of that extra stuff on my rifle, even though I have plenty of room to do so in addition to an extra battery. (iMod and TD or MOE grip).

I check all my RDS as part of the rifle's function check before I case it up to take with me somewhere, for whatever reason. If it blinks when I turn it on, I change the battery. I have one rifle that I don't take on callouts that has been blinking for about a month. I'm curious to see how long it takes to go dead.

If I were in a position where I might need to bring a rifle into play to save someone's life at a moment's notice then I might be more concerned about having an optic that I could just turn on and forget about it for a couple of years, in which case I'd dig my T-1 out of the drawer where I keep it on backup status and use that. Since I'm not too worried about my battery dying in the middle of a firefight, I'll stick with the Eotech. The T-1 is a nice optic, but size and battery life by themselves weren't enough to sway me. Your needs may vary.