View Full Version : Draco as an SBR?
I'm still pretty new to the AK world.
I picked up an SGL-21 around this time last year and really enjoy it and learning to use the AK platform. I have been lusting after adding a 7.62x39 Krink style AK SBR to my collection but the pickins in this particular flavor of AK seem pretty slim.
I have seen several Draco pistols that have been converted to SBRs but I know next to nothing about them other than they are imported by Century. I know Henderson Defense has a "Certified" Draco that they supposedly check over before the sale and for the $$$ it seems like a reasonable way to get what I'm looking for.
Can any of the more AK knowledgeable members here (Templar, etc) shed anymore light on this weapon, it's manufacture, reliability, and suitability in an SBR role?
Thansk!
lloydkristmas
10-12-10, 21:21
Im no expert but I do know a little.....I believe they use an unfinished underfolder trunnion, so take that into consideration when doing SBR work. Also, unlike the WASR's, the Draco is genuine Romanian, since it doesnt fall into the ATF (or whoever makes the rules) regulations for "American parts" and such. So in a sense, the Draco is gonna be the more 'authentic' of the Romanian guns.
As far as I know they are relatively easy to SBR, and lots of people do it. Id venture to guess its the cheapest way to get into the SBR game at this time. I'll probably pick one up soon, at 350ish dollars, they cant be beat
They actually covered this in SAR this month. I think they went with an ACE folding stock.
Any other experiences or opinions on the Draco?
POS or inexpensive and reliable means to a 7.62x39 AK SBR?
22_Shooter
10-18-10, 02:54
I've been researching the hell out of these things for the past month or so.
From what I'm reading, Draco's are a great deal and an easy means to an SBR down the road, if you choose to go that route. I've also read about canted FSB's, and some other common problems associated with lower end AK's. Luckily, it also seems that Century is very good about replacing them. (Also, like lloyd said, Century only imports these, as they aren't subject to 922r. 922r is the only reason Century messes with the AK rifles they import, and sometimes muck up) I know some people hear "Century" and run in the other direction.:D But being that it's an AK........if it runs, it'll most likely run like a raped ape and give you many years of enjoyment and reliability.
Most people opt to go with an Ace stock adapter, like Steyr mentioned, when putting a stock on it. You can drill/tap right into the rear trunnion and you have a good amount of choices of stocks to use.
That's the meat and potatoes of what I've found on the Draco since I started researching them. Now it's only matter of me getting the $375 flat for my FFL to order me one. I can't wait.
This is my inspiration:
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0028.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0020.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0021.jpg
That thing makes me drool. Funny thing is.......that Ultimak lower tri-rail retails for almost as much as a Draco itself!:eek::D
(That's not mine. It's a guy named "Gardner" on Arfcom)
ChicagoTex
10-18-10, 17:08
MIAD on AK? How is that done, I simply MUST know!
Seriously, the #1 thing holding me back on an AK was the tiny grips.
ACE sells an adapter for mounting AR grips on an AK (its the one used in the picture above). Personally, I would not do that, because I have read a few threads about how these adapters are prone to breaking.
There are several great aftermarket grips available for the AK (Hogue, MD Arms, Ergo, US Palm, etc.) and who knows, maybe someday Magpul will throw their hat into this market.
4thPointOfContact
10-18-10, 18:18
I would be much more comfortable in taking a Draco pistol up to being an SBR than taking a rifle down to being one.
It if works as a pistol, then all you are doing is adding a buttstock.
If it works as a rifle, then you don't know if it's going to work as an SBR until you actually try it, after having the barrel done and more expensive parts changed out.
I would be much more comfortable in taking a Draco pistol up to being an SBR than taking a rifle down to being one.
It if works as a pistol, then all you are doing is adding a buttstock.
If it works as a rifle, then you don't know if it's going to work as an SBR until you actually try it, after having the barrel done and more expensive parts changed out.
Excellent point. I just wanted to make sure it actually worked as a pistol! :D
Sounds like it shouldn't be too bad since Century isn't monkeying around with them.
I've heard of canted sights but it seems they have been easily repaired/replaced. They do have a chrome lined barrel so that's a positive.
http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/6747221133/9625346/100_3079.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg
There is also the champion pistol which is basically the same gun in .223.
Any reports on how the ace stock holds up under hard use?
I highly recommend reading the new article in SAR. Especially pay attention to the things that Red Jacket had to do to make it safe and probably functionally operable.
Thanks Iraqgunz, I'll have to see if I can find a copy locally and check out the article.
This is the kind of info I've been looking for.
If I get one I'l be staying with 7.62x39 for ammo/mag commonality with my other AK.
I have also heard good things so far about the ACE Stock and have been considering one for my SGL as well as the Draco if and when I get one.
Believe it or not....the Draco is a semi auto version of a weapon that the Romanian police have in their inventory.
These pics were taken during the 2006 bird flu scare in Romania.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Romanian%20Stuff/r3168912631.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Romanian%20Stuff/r3092176132.jpg
Believe it or not....the Draco is a semi auto version of a weapon that the Romanian police have in their inventory.
These pics were taken during the 2006 bird flu scare in Romania.
Thanks Templar!
I was hoping you might drop in here....
So in your experience do you feel these are acceptable for real use and conversion to an SBR, the pictures you posted would seem to lend some credence to this, or do you think I should drive-on and look for another means to a 7.62x39 AK SBR?
Thanks Templar!
I was hoping you might drop in here....
So in your experience do you feel these are acceptable for real use and conversion to an SBR, the pictures you posted would seem to lend some credence to this, or do you think I should drive-on and look for another means to a 7.62x39 AK SBR?
I think that they're the best way to get a compact SBR AKM variant without breaking the bank.
The Romanian QC isn't as high as it should be, but if you get a good one, you're set. If you don't, Century should swap it out for you.
The carbine version has been in Romanian military use since the late 1980's.
From the 1989 Revolution:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Romanian%20Stuff/rev_1989_46.jpg
The article in SAR stated that it was a good platform to do so. But, they did have to work it over a little.
There was mention of issues with the FCG. They sent their gun out to Red Jacket to be professionally worked over.
Thanks Templar!
I was hoping you might drop in here....
So in your experience do you feel these are acceptable for real use and conversion to an SBR, the pictures you posted would seem to lend some credence to this, or do you think I should drive-on and look for another means to a 7.62x39 AK SBR?
MIAD on AK? How is that done, I simply MUST know!
Seriously, the #1 thing holding me back on an AK was the tiny grips.
I think the one in the pic has an AR grip adapter which sell for $6.
http://riflestocks.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=326
I had to put one on my AK for one of those weird CA compliant grips. Worked ok so far as range shooting.
Can anyone lead me to posts regarding failures with the grip adaptor? I hate my AK grip, but I don't want to replace it with something that is going to fail. I've been looking at the US Palm grip lately, but wouldn't mind an AR grip on the rifle.
22_Shooter
10-19-10, 12:28
MIAD on AK? How is that done, I simply MUST know!
Seriously, the #1 thing holding me back on an AK was the tiny grips.
As was pointed out, it's an Ace adapter. I hadn't heard about the failures, so I'd be interested in some links too. I have no personal experience with them, but it seems like the only option to easily mount an AR grip.
But I'll second what doodi1 said; there are plenty of aftermarket AK grips, if the standard AK grip is too small. (I agree 100% on that. Can't stand them. Once I bought a factory Izhmash pistol grip, I was hooked. MD Arms makes a US made clone, that's actually supposed to be stronger than the factory Russian original. They're perfect for those looking for thicker grip, and they're cheap)
Believe it or not....the Draco is a semi auto version of a weapon that the Romanian police have in their inventory.
These pics were taken during the 2006 bird flu scare in Romania.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Romanian%20Stuff/r3168912631.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Romanian%20Stuff/r3092176132.jpg
Looking at the pics again, why would an agency in Romania choose to run without a folding stock and a just a forward grip?
The reason that I ask that some states SBRs are a no go but there are ways to do AOWs.
I have never been a fan of AK or AR pistols, but how much better or to what degree does having the forward grip on a pistol AK increase its effectiveness, if any on a rifle caliber type weapon.
The article in SAR stated that it was a good platform to do so. But, they did have to work it over a little.
There was mention of issues with the FCG. They sent their gun out to Red Jacket to be professionally worked over.
I was able to find a copy of Small Arms Review at the local Books a Million yesterday and read the article you mentioned on the Draco SBR conversion.
They did indeed mention issues with the FCG and that Red Jacket Arms replaced it with a Tapco G2 setup. That seems like a fairly simple and inexpensive way to insure reliablity. They also mentioned having to "fit" the saftey. I couldn't tell if this was due to the new FCG or because the original unit was out of spec. But seems like another fairly easy fix.
I might give one of these little pistols a shot (pardon the pun). If it'll run well, I'll SBR it.
Thanks for all the info!
It was my understanding that the selector lever was out of spec so they had to do some work to it even after adding the new FCG.
I was able to find a copy of Small Arms Review at the local Books a Million yesterday and read the article you mentioned on the Draco SBR conversion.
They did indeed mention issues with the FCG and that Red Jacket Arms replaced it with a Tapco G2 setup. That seems like a fairly simple and inexpensive way to insure reliablity. They also mentioned having to "fit" the saftey. I couldn't tell if this was due to the new FCG or because the original unit was out of spec. But seems like another fairly easy fix.
I might give one of these little pistols a shot (pardon the pun). If it'll run well, I'll SBR it.
Thanks for all the info!
Looking at the pics again, why would an agency in Romania choose to run without a folding stock and a just a forward grip?
The reason that I ask that some states SBRs are a no go but there are ways to do AOWs.
I have never been a fan of AK or AR pistols, but how much better or to what degree does having the forward grip on a pistol AK increase its effectiveness, if any on a rifle caliber type weapon.
Ignorance.
The level of weapons handling skills and knowledge is even lower overseas than it is here.
They actually covered this in SAR this month. I think they went with an ACE folding stock.
You're right.
OP buy this months Small Arms Review. PM me if you can not find it I will mail you mine if you cover shipping.
Hope I'm not changing gear here too much, but I was curious if anyone has an inkling about how much longer we might see the Draco available. I've noticed as of late they aren't coming with cleaning rods and I wondered if that is an indicator that other parts for it are drying up as well. I've been kind of interested in one now that prices for them are reasonable, but have been holding off since I'm not sure if I want one for a sbr project. I just don't want to hold off and them have them gone like the AIMR carbines.
The Professor
01-02-11, 14:35
They actually covered this in SAR this month. I think they went with an ACE folding stock.
I would like to read the artical they covered.
what does SARstand for?
thanks .
The Professor
01-02-11, 15:11
Thanks Templar
FYI...
My Draco was ordered from Atlantic last week. Once it arrives and I have been able to inspect, fire, etc I'll give my impressions.
If all goes well, I'll have it engraved, add it to my trust, and begin the NFA process on it.
I'm not sure if the one I have coming is one of the "C" models with the underfolder trunnion installed or not (I'll find out once it arrives). If it is it seems the receiver can be modded to accept an underfolder stock without too much difficulty. I had originally intended to mount an ACE side folding stock, but wonder if it has the underfolder trunnion if I should go that route instead. (never used an underfolder).
Anyone wanna make a suggestion on the stock and give their reasoning??
The Professor
01-02-11, 20:24
Draco's looked well made for a Romanian . Mine has the pistol block. Iam thinking of doing a form #1. Id prefer the underfolder trunnion. Not because of it being the best choice, But its Mil-spec. Iam not sure that the side folder will take the abuse that I put a weapon through. I know the side folder looks nicer and feels better shooting, but when the stock is folded on the Ace Folder there is a 1/2 inch gap between the pad of the stock and the frame of the rifle. This is What Ive seen in several pictures posted in different Forms. Iam still in the research mode.
Underfolding stocked AK's were designed to allow a trooper to get in and out of his BMP or T-54 quickly, but they suck as firing platforms.
I'm looking at doing an SBR on my Draco, but I have a thing for the AKS-74 triangle sidefolder. I found one at last, but the rivet pattern is different than the pistol trunnion in the Draco (which seems to be the same as an underfolder). Is it a big deal to weld-up the old rivet holes and redrill the receiver for the sidefolder trunnion? Or should I have the Draco cut up for parts and go with a dedicated new sidefolder receiver?
Is it a big deal to weld-up the old rivet holes and redrill the receiver for the sidefolder trunnion? Or should I have the Draco cut up for parts and go with a dedicated new sidefolder receiver?
You'd also have to make the cutouts for the button on the rear trunnion, make the cutout for the latch at the front left of the receiver, drill a hole in front of the magazine well for the latch pin, and drill a hole in the front trunnion for the same pin to go in. Drilling the hole for the latch pin can be challenging because you have to get the angle right and you have to drill on a step in the front trunnion. So yes, it's a pretty difficult thing to do. I did the same thing using a new NoDak Spud receiver that already had all the cuts. Drilling the hole correctly in a Romanian front trunnion was enough for me. Regardless, do cut up the Draco. That would be sad.
I went to a local gun store today to get a Draco. Since I'd be SBR'ing it, I want one that has all matching numbers on the front trunnion, receiver cover, bolt carrier, and bolt. None of the four they have met this criteria. One had two serial numbers on the bolt carrier, two had receiver covers with a different serial number, and another had a trunnion serial number that was one less than all the other serial numbers on it. All had the underfolder rear trunnions. If you care about matching numbers, then I'd definitely suggest looking at one before you buy.
The Professor
01-03-11, 16:25
MINE HAVE ALL MATCHING NUMBERS, I wish I had the underfolder trunnion:sad:
Underfolding stocked AK's were designed to allow a trooper to get in and out of his BMP or T-54 quickly, but they suck as firing platforms.
Yep. Were it not necessary for my personal Small Arms Museum I wouldn't own any underfolding AKs.
I'm gonna go full Romanian, here is a mock up of what I'm gonna build.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8954/dracosbrc.jpg
Yep. Were it not necessary for my personal Small Arms Museum I wouldn't own any underfolding AKs.
I'm gonna go full Romanian, here is a mock up of what I'm gonna build.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8954/dracosbrc.jpg
I know that's authentic but it looks like someone fixed their busted stock with the handle from an entrenching tool, and even less practical than the underfolder.
No offense to those who are into collect-ability and originality, but for this rifle I'm looking for a more practical fighting setup, so in keeping with that and a folder I guess I'm gonna stick with the ACE stock, unless someone throws out a better option.
I can't wait to SBR mine if it runs well though! :D
The Professor
01-03-11, 18:07
Steyr Aug I have a stock like that and it is very practical.
I like that idea better than the underfolder, let us know how much trouble it was when your finished.
I know that's authentic...
Unfortunately, it's not completely authentic. The authentic stock to go with this SBR is virtually unobtainable.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m185/heeresflak/DSCF3172.jpg
Steyr Aug I have a stock like that and it is very practical.
I like that idea better than the underfolder, let us know how much trouble it was when your finished.
No offense intended.
You'd also have to make the cutouts for the button on the rear trunnion, make the cutout for the latch at the front left of the receiver, drill a hole in front of the magazine well for the latch pin, and drill a hole in the front trunnion for the same pin to go in. Drilling the hole for the latch pin can be challenging because you have to get the angle right and you have to drill on a step in the front trunnion. So yes, it's a pretty difficult thing to do. I did the same thing using a new NoDak Spud receiver that already had all the cuts. Drilling the hole correctly in a Romanian front trunnion was enough for me. Regardless, do cut up the Draco. That would be sad.
I went to a local gun store today to get a Draco. Since I'd be SBR'ing it, I want one that has all matching numbers on the front trunnion, receiver cover, bolt carrier, and bolt. None of the four they have met this criteria. One had two serial numbers on the bolt carrier, two had receiver covers with a different serial number, and another had a trunnion serial number that was one less than all the other serial numbers on it. All had the underfolder rear trunnions. If you care about matching numbers, then I'd definitely suggest looking at one before you buy.
Yep, I'm aware of all the mods that need to be done to the basic receiver to use the triangle stock, but as I have neither the machine tools nor the skill necessary to do it, I'm just going to find a good 'smith to build it for me. That being the case, I was wondering if it would be cheaper in terms of labor to just get a dedicated Nodak sidefolder receiver and have the Draco cut up into parts to mount on it.
I was wondering if it would be cheaper in terms of labor to just get a dedicated Nodak sidefolder receiver and have the Draco cut up into parts to mount on it.
The NoDak Spud receiver would be $96. You'd have to add to this the cost of demilling the rifle, drilling the Romanian trunnion for the latch pin, reriveting the front trunnion, and reheadspacing & installing the barrel pin. To use the Draco receiver, you'd have to have all the steps detailed above done. My bet is that it would be about a wash. Given that, I'd have the modifications done to the Draco receiver. With the cost of the rear sidefolding trunnion, the sidefolder, and associated hardware, you're talking about a pretty expensive build. It would certainly be pretty unique and I'd love to shoot it.
I know that's authentic but it looks like someone fixed their busted stock with the handle from an entrenching tool, and even less practical than the underfolder.
No offense to those who are into collect-ability and originality, but for this rifle I'm looking for a more practical fighting setup, so in keeping with that and a folder I guess I'm gonna stick with the ACE stock, unless someone throws out a better option.
I can't wait to SBR mine if it runs well though! :D
Having shot both wire side folders and underfolders, I completely disagree. I find the wire side folder to be far more practical. Not my ideal folding stock, but much more useful than an underfolder. And let's keep in mind a underfolder is not even an option.
Additionally, the wire side folder allows you to swap out to a fixed wood stock if you wanted. I'm probably gonna do a pair of Draco SBRs, one with a standard fixed wooden stock and one with a wire side folder.
Nothing wrong with an ACE stock, that is how the SAR guys went. Personally I think it makes the SBR too heavy. And you either have to modify a standard trunnion for a flush fit or you have to go with that ACE extended folding stock which looks kinda crappy, especially on a SBR.
The wire folder is gonna give me the lightweight Romanian Krink I want.
:laugh:
The NoDak Spud receiver would be $96. You'd have to add to this the cost of demilling the rifle, drilling the Romanian trunnion for the latch pin, reriveting the front trunnion, and reheadspacing & installing the barrel pin. To use the Draco receiver, you'd have to have all the steps detailed above done. My bet is that it would be about a wash. Given that, I'd have the modifications done to the Draco receiver. With the cost of the rear sidefolding trunnion, the sidefolder, and associated hardware, you're talking about a pretty expensive build. It would certainly be pretty unique and I'd love to shoot it.
When I initially got the Draco, my first thought was to just slap an underfolder assembly on it for an ultra-economical SBR. While I don't dislike the underfolders as much as some folks (at least not the Polish one I have, I'll happily admit that the current crop of Century round-tube underfolders suck monkey balls by comparison), I just have a lust for a triangle side-folder. I managed to find one for a reasonable price, so now I'm bound and determined to mount it on my Draco. I've heard good things about the Nodak receiver, as compared to the generic crap that Century puts out, and I've already found that my Draco is picky about magazines. Some just won't seat at all. If I'm going to drop the coin and the effort into SBR'ing it, I want it to run with any AK mag I own, not just a subset.
The Professor
01-04-11, 05:46
I would hate to have to use the subgun in battle. You would think that they would up for a flash hider. You would be Blind and Deaf in about 3 minutes, LOL
I think Iam going to wait on the SBR, and see how some of your weapons come out. Maybe even get the name of a the gun smith that did the best job. I personaly like the 100 series stock, It would be the same process as the Triangle Stock.
When you guys get done with your project please post some pic's and range reports.
Having shot both wire side folders and underfolders, I completely disagree. I find the wire side folder to be far more practical. Not my ideal folding stock, but much more useful than an underfolder. And let's keep in mind a underfolder is not even an option.
Additionally, the wire side folder allows you to swap out to a fixed wood stock if you wanted. I'm probably gonna do a pair of Draco SBRs, one with a standard fixed wooden stock and one with a wire side folder.
Nothing wrong with an ACE stock, that is how the SAR guys went. Personally I think it makes the SBR too heavy. And you either have to modify a standard trunnion for a flush fit or you have to go with that ACE extended folding stock which looks kinda crappy, especially on a SBR.
The wire folder is gonna give me the lightweight Romanian Krink I want.
:laugh:
Like I said no offense intended, and I'm sure looks can be deceiving.
Actually I have never shot a wire folder, just fixed stocks and the solid folders. It appeared from the profile of the stock though to be neither comfortable or conducive to a good cheek weld. But my impressions may certainly be wrong.
Now I ask this because I'm not sure. I thought the Draco's either had a solid rear "pistol" trunnion or the "C" model's used an underfolder trunnion in a receiver that was not drilled for the underfolding stock. If this is the case, I assume the factory rear trunnion would need to be replaced in order to mount the wire folder pictured above or a standard fixed stock? Is this correct?
threeheadeddog
01-04-11, 06:49
I had the wire folder on a full-size ak at one point and it was a bit of a suprise how the gun felt. It almost seemed as if the wire folder kind of acted as a spring when shot. It seemed to flex just a bit and I actually liked it. The cheakweld was deceptavie. Not really good but better than it looks.
Now I ask this because I'm not sure. I thought the Draco's either had a solid rear "pistol" trunnion or the "C" model's used an underfolder trunnion in a receiver that was not drilled for the underfolding stock. If this is the case, I assume the factory rear trunnion would need to be replaced in order to mount the wire folder pictured above or a standard fixed stock? Is this correct?
I've seen both solid and underfolder trunnions in Dracos. Both would have to be replaced in order to use the wire sidefolder, as I understand it.
Like I said no offense intended, and I'm sure looks can be deceiving.
Actually I have never shot a wire folder, just fixed stocks and the solid folders. It appeared from the profile of the stock though to be neither comfortable or conducive to a good cheek weld. But my impressions may certainly be wrong.
Now I ask this because I'm not sure. I thought the Draco's either had a solid rear "pistol" trunnion or the "C" model's used an underfolder trunnion in a receiver that was not drilled for the underfolding stock. If this is the case, I assume the factory rear trunnion would need to be replaced in order to mount the wire folder pictured above or a standard fixed stock? Is this correct?
No offense taken. And yes I will need to replace the trunnion.
It's a good thing AK's need to be pressed, riveted, etc. Or I'd be into it BAD!
I'm still thinking I'm gonna go with the ACE, but I've been thinking of all kinds of possibilities today.... :D
I just got my form 1 approved and still am not sure what configuration I'm going with. Right now the plans are an AK hogue grip, a MOE AR stock w/ACE folding adapter and a Ultimak upper rail. I'm not sure abt the lower handgard as I like the Ultimak on "Gardner's", but I'm really liking the "DonkeyDong" wood too. Mine may end up being some kind of hybrid..
The pictures also include an ACE grip adapter(with a AR Hogue grip), original HG's & Ironwood Pistol grip refinished in red
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco1-1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco2-2.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco3-1.jpg
I just got my form 1 approved and still am not sure what configuration I'm going with. Right now the plans are an AK hogue grip, a MOE AR stock w/ACE folding adapter and a Ultimak upper rail. I'm not sure abt the lower handgard as I like the Ultimak on "Gardner's", but I'm really liking the "DonkeyDong" wood too. Mine may end up being some kind of hybrid..
The pictures also include an ACE grip adapter(with a AR Hogue grip), original HG's & Ironwood Pistol grip refinished in red
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco1-1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco2-2.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco3-1.jpg
Which model/size Ultimak does the Draco take? I know it uses regular handguards but that the gas tube is shorter.
It uses the mid-size Hungarian AMD tube, if memory serves.
It uses the mid-size Hungarian AMD tube, if memory serves.
Yes, the hungarian amd tube is supposed to be a perfect fit. I bought the M1-B, which has a longer gas tube and longer rail. The gas tube will need to be cut/shortened, but I'm leaving the full rail.
Shortened gas tube and rail:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/weapon%20stuff/P3182380.jpg
Shortened gas tube and full rail that extended all the way to the front sight:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Draco_02.jpg
FYI...
I picked up my Draco earlier today.
The sights look good, no cant, and it seems to function fine. There is a little hammer drag on the carrier and it will bind if I ride the handle forward. But when pulled fully to the rear and released to slams home without issue. I'm confident it will smooth out with some rounds through it.
Came in factory box with 2 mags. It is a C model and has the underfolder rear trunnion. The barrel trunnion is stamped 1971 (it's older than me) and the serial number matches those found on the gas tube, top cover and bolt group. The rear sight and recoil spring assembly do not match (not that that really makes a difference to me). It was packed with a decent amount of cosmoline on it.
I hope to get by the range this week and put some rounds through it to test for function before I add it to my trust, have it engraved, and Form 1 it.
Justed wanted to say thanks guys......
I really want one now. I've been pricing them out locally, but these assholes want 500 bucks. I checked Atlantic arms and they have them in stock ready to ship. I'm traveling for work next week so I'll be hitting up all the gun shops on the way.
Keep this thread going. I love the sbr's so far
Brad
Yes, the hungarian amd tube is supposed to be a perfect fit. I bought the M1-B, which has a longer gas tube and longer rail. The gas tube will need to be cut/shortened, but I'm leaving the full rail.
Shortened gas tube and rail:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/mammynun/weapon%20stuff/P3182380.jpg
Shortened gas tube and full rail that extended all the way to the front sight:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/Draco_02.jpg
Is there any advantage to cutting down an M1-B over using the M7-B? The M1-B does seem to be more common. Is it as simple as cutting the tube or does it need to be chamfered or anything?
Thanks again;)
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/draco.jpg
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/draco3.jpg
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/draco4.jpg
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/draco2.jpg
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/draco1.jpg
I've still gotta snap some pics and get to the range for a test fire but here are some first impressions.
Build quality of the Draco was better than I expected. I've handled some Wasr's and wasn't impressed, but this is really pretty nice. Not as nice a finish as my Arsenal, but I may spray over the park.
The trigger is better than the Arsenal. I really didn't think the Arsenal was that bad until I tried this one. Too bad I think I'll have to loose it for parts count when I SBR it.
The mag release on my DRACO sucks! Way too short! I'm trying to figure out a way to solve this issue, and am open to suggestions.
So far no issues with mags fitting and the sights are straight. Not all the numbers match but those on the barrel trunnion, gas tube, top cover, and bolt carrier do. Matching numbers isn't that big a deal to me.
I hope to get it to the range this week once the weather clears a bit.
I love this little bitch! It was a blast. Very quailty build. It will be getting a stamp for sure. I'm not into the big caliber pistols. I want a stock bad. Now its a waiting game. I really need to read up on the point system so I stay legal. I put close to 200 rounds thru it tonite. I want to put another 300 rounds thru it before I send for the tax stamp.
Thanks again folks.............:D
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/flamethrower.jpg
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy110/bradb55/deadbadguy.jpg
Tomahawk_Ghost
01-14-11, 19:18
I didn't see this in any of the posts but wouldn't building this into a rifle fall into 922R.
You would need to put the appropriate amount of USA parts in this SBR, correct?
The Professor
01-15-11, 09:13
Iam looking at this from the stand point as a useable tool, I would like to see some shot groups once its been SBR, And if any one has used it in a Tactical Class. Hows does it sholder, Quick handleing, CQB type thing. Ive been looking at the Krinks, But I think the Draco has a lot to offer.
Guess I need to do a little more checking. I thought when you got a stamp and put it on the NFA rolls, 922R no longer came into play? And I am planning on ordering a Draco next week!
Guess I need to do a little more checking. I thought when you got a stamp and put it on the NFA rolls, 922R no longer came into play? And I am planning on ordering a Draco next week!
That is not my understanding, but since mine already has a US Made muzzle device, grip, and handguards, and will have a US Made stock once SBR'd, it's only a couple of parts to bring it into compliance.
I may be wrong on the 922 compliance thing, but was under the impression once it was a rifle it needed to be brought into compliance.
The Professor
01-16-11, 15:37
THESE WILL MAKE A GOOD SBR, accuracy is good , needs a red dot sight for low light shooting.
LonghunterCO
01-16-11, 18:16
No offense taken. And yes I will need to replace the trunnion.
Is the upper rivet in the same place as the fixed-stock trunnion, or will both holes need to be filled and re-located?
-Also what volume and issue of the Small Arms Review has the Draco conversion (it was not obvious looking at the back issues section of the mag)?
LonghunterCO
01-16-11, 18:29
That is not my understanding, but since mine already has a US Made muzzle device, grip, and handguards, and will have a US Made stock once SBR'd, it's only a couple of parts to bring it into compliance.
I may be wrong on the 922 compliance thing, but was under the impression once it was a rifle it needed to be brought into compliance.
Handguns and NFA items do not fall under 922.
This is confirmed?
Handguns and NFA items do not fall under 922.
LonghunterCO
01-16-11, 21:29
This is confirmed?
Not a lawyer but...
Section 922 Paragraph R states:
"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. "
no mention of handguns.
Many have mentioned that NFA firearms are not importable so they do not fall under 922. Others have stated that NFA items are not considered because they are not "adaptable to sporting purposes". A letter that surfaced from the ATF (http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9324/atfresponseregardingpar.jpg) is what has everyone up in arms. It seems to contridic past ATF letters on this subject. From what I understand the BATFE is reviewing this now. To make this an even sticker-wicket are those items imported as a pistol and then being regestered as a SBR.
So at this time I am in the NFA does not count (until such time as a ruling comes out to the contrary). If you are concerned with this then go the compliance route.
I would go:
Fire controll group-3 items (trigger, hammer, and disconnector)(I understand that some are reporting the Draco already using Tapco G2 groups)
Stock -1 item
Pistol grip -1 item
Handguard -1 item
LonghunterCO
01-31-11, 18:45
Yep. Were it not necessary for my personal Small Arms Museum I wouldn't own any underfolding AKs.
I'm gonna go full Romanian, here is a mock up of what I'm gonna build.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8954/dracosbrc.jpg
Is there a specific model that represents? The pictures (from the revolution) that I saw of a simular one had the Romy vertical foregrip (rifle type with foward sweep) and what looked like a RPK slotted flach hider.
Is the upper rivet in the same place as the fixed-stock trunnion, or will both holes need to be filled and re-located?
-Also what volume and issue of the Small Arms Review has the Draco conversion (it was not obvious looking at the back issues section of the mag)?
Not sure about rivets, I won't be doing the work.
Nov. 2010 (Vol. 14, No. 2)
Here is mine that I did pretty early on in the Draco/SBR craze. Love this little thing, it's a blast to shoot. If you are on the fence,....do it.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1508/fulldraco.jpg
MI AK Rail
Heavily mod'd Magpul MOE grip
ACE folder, 8.5"
Muzzle device from AIM
MilitaryArms
02-03-11, 08:00
They actually covered this in SAR this month. I think they went with an ACE folding stock.
I do think this is the easiest way to go, and the path I will initially take with mine. Just drill and tap two holes and bolt it on.
I have a Romy side folder so if I don't like the way the ACE makes the rifle look, I'll just get that installed by Rifle Dynamics.
Anyone know if the Battle comp can be threaded for the AK? Seems to be just the ticket to tame the Dragon to me.
LonghunterCO
02-03-11, 17:26
I do think this is the easiest way to go, and the path I will initially take with mine. Just drill and tap two holes and bolt it on.
I have a Romy side folder so if I don't like the way the ACE makes the rifle look, I'll just get that installed by Rifle Dynamics.
Speaking for myself, SBR are about increased manuverability over the standard length platform. That increase is why I go to the extra cost and hassel as well as deal with a decrease in projectile velocity and the increase in muzzle flash. YMMV, but when you start doing things that decrease manuverability (like add weight and muzzle devices that bring the barrel to a near standard length) then you are defeating the purpose of the SBR.
So for me, if the ACE stock increases my hits on target to a point that offset the extra wieght it brings to the platform, then I say go for it. I would not place it on there based on its looks.
Don Robison
02-03-11, 17:26
Anyone know if the Battle comp can be threaded for the AK? Seems to be just the ticket to tame the Dragon to me.
You can PM PRGGodfather, but I think they suspended custom threading at the moment.
My contribution to the thread; the Draco SBR I put together last week. This pic was before testing the optic and painting it.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/DSC00136-1.jpg
This is my inspiration:
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0028.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0020.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0021.jpg
...That's now officially my inspiration too. I want to make this. A little Google-fu and I found the build details on this little guy here (http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=46586). They're charging $1400 for that rifle, which looks like about $1000 in parts if my math's good to go. I think that can be brought down some.
Is there a guide somewhere to what all adding a folding stock to a Draco entails? Or whether I'd be better off with an ACE folder vs a poly style folder?
-B
buddyhoohaw
02-17-11, 14:19
...That's now officially my inspiration too. I want to make this. A little Google-fu and I found the build details on this little guy here (http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=46586). They're charging $1400 for that rifle, which looks like about $1000 in parts if my math's good to go. I think that can be brought down some.
Is there a guide somewhere to what all adding a folding stock to a Draco entails? Or whether I'd be better off with an ACE folder vs a poly style folder?
-B
I'd pass on it for $1,000.00 nevermind $1,400.00. You're talking 107UR territory for that money. I could care less about the rail.
Cheers
My goal is to have an SBR'd AK in 7.62 with a folding stock, place to mount a light and Aimpoint, and a handguard that extends as far out toward the muzzle as possible. If there's a better way to do this than the SBR'd Draco, I'm all ears. I'm new to AKs.
-B
buddyhoohaw
02-17-11, 15:30
My goal is to have an SBR'd AK in 7.62 with a folding stock, place to mount a light and Aimpoint, and a handguard that extends as far out toward the muzzle as possible. If there's a better way to do this than the SBR'd Draco, I'm all ears. I'm new to AKs.
-B
There is a new in box Arsenal 107CR on gunbroker right now for $1,100.00; you can add an ultimak rail for $100.00 plus the cost of the barrel work and stamp. The cost of the stamp is moot since you would need one for the Draco so the question is whether you can get the barrel cut and crowned for $200.00 which I believe you can. Keep in mind that you will not need to thread a 107CR since the threads for the muzzle device are on the GB. In my opinion, for $1,400.00 the 107CR would be a higher quality AK than the Draco build. However, that said, you will not have the collapseable ACR stock and long quad rail that the illustrated Draco has which I understand is what you really want.
I have always thought that a Draco would be a cost effective alternative to high dollar krink by simply submitting the Form 1 and adding a muzzle device and Romy side foler. Anymore than that seems too pricey for the end result.
ETA: It appears that the Arsenal 107URs have become exponentially expensive since I bought mine. Damn.
Cheers
Here is mine that I did pretty early on in the Draco/SBR craze. Love this little thing, it's a blast to shoot. If you are on the fence,....do it.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1508/fulldraco.jpg
MI AK Rail
Heavily mod'd Magpul MOE grip
ACE folder, 8.5"
Muzzle device from AIM
I really like this and have something similar in mind for mine.
Is it possible to run the gun with the stock folded if you have it setup to fold to the right?
...That's now officially my inspiration too. I want to make this. A little Google-fu and I found the build details on this little guy here (http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=46586). They're charging $1400 for that rifle, which looks like about $1000 in parts if my math's good to go. I think that can be brought down some.
Is there a guide somewhere to what all adding a folding stock to a Draco entails? Or whether I'd be better off with an ACE folder vs a poly style folder?
-B
I, like many people, like this Draco, but there is no way in HELL I'd pay $1400 for it!
Please don't confuse my interest in building that AK with wanting to spend $1400 doing it. I just don't know of a less-expensive way to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish. For example, what's the least expensive you'll find an SBR AK in 7.62 with a side-folding stock? 44Mag.com has a Vector for $850, which would become an $1100 gun with an Ultimak, but I think they only carry one. Question 2 would be who has a reputation for cutting down 16" barrel AKs without sacrificing reliability?
If the Draco's the only way to go then it's the only way to go. If there's a better way, like I said, I'm all ears. :D
-B
LonghunterCO
02-18-11, 08:00
Is there a guide somewhere to what all adding a folding stock to a Draco entails?
From Gardners (the guy who's build that is) thread over on TOS. He states that he just drilled and tapped two holes. So the pistol trunnion is marked for the holes, center punched, drilled with the shank sized drill bit and then chased with a tap.
LonghunterCO
02-20-11, 11:24
I am filling out my Form1 for my Draco this is the first firearm that I have went Form1 on that was an imported weapon.
In an attempt to get it right the first time, I have a quick question on the (ATF From1 (5320.1) revised September 2007):
4d.: Draco (model)
4 a.: "Romarm/ Cugir Romania" (the orgional manuf.)
4 h.: "CAI Georgia, VT" (the importer)
What did you all put on it?
I am filling out my Form1 for my Draco this is the first firearm that I have went Form1 on that was an imported weapon.
In an attempt to get it right the first time, I have a quick question on the (ATF From1 (5320.1) revised September 2007):
4d.: Draco (model)
4 a.: "Romarm/ Cugir Romania" (the orgional manuf.)
4 h.: "CAI Georgia, VT" (the importer)
What did you all put on it?
I haven't done mine yet, but hope to this week or next. That looks right to me though.
I plan on doing one also, I need to get off my lasy a** and get my form filled out!
LonghunterCO
03-04-11, 13:22
Mine has been with the BATFE for 8 days today.
SERVED_USMC
03-10-11, 10:39
You guys are KILLIN me!! Now Im on the hunt for one. Talked to my guy at the local shop and he said he can have me one by next week. Already going to my class3 dealer Saturday to get my can ordered. This is going to me an expensive month.
Tomahawk_Ghost
03-10-11, 12:20
You guys are KILLIN me!! Now Im on the hunt for one. Talked to my guy at the local shop and he said he can have me one by next week. Already going to my class3 dealer Saturday to get my can ordered. This is going to me an expensive month.
Don't mind me asking are you getting a can for Draco. Is it one of those Red Jacket cans? I'm seriously considering that combination. Have you seen one run reliably in that configuration?
SERVED_USMC
03-10-11, 12:59
Negative. It's an M42K for my AR SBR. have no idea how the Red Jacket cans perform. Ive just recently gotten into the AK world and had never heard of them until their tv show came out.
LonghunterCO
03-10-11, 13:50
You can go poke around on silencer talk and see posts from guys that are disappointed with the AK platform as a silencer host. This is not a Red Jacket issue but one of the AK weapon's design. Disreguarding this there is also the challenge of non-concentric threading an most AK. Not trying to flag you off on the purchase, just bringing up some of the challenges in getting the platform hearing safe.
SERVED_USMC
03-11-11, 08:07
When picking out a pistol that can host a butt stock. Am I looking for one with the plate on the rear of the receiver (trunnion?). Just wanting to make sure before I end up with something that doesnt work. Is there a thread buried somewhere around here that walks through a build?
LonghunterCO
03-11-11, 09:24
When picking out a pistol that can host a butt stock. Am I looking for one with the plate on the rear of the receiver (trunnion?). Just wanting to make sure before I end up with something that doesnt work. Is there a thread buried somewhere around here that walks through a build?
I do not think that it matters. Are you going with the ACE stock?
SERVED_USMC
03-12-11, 10:11
Possibly. I would like to be able to have some other options, but Im not sure if Im limited to only a few. Depends what works I guess.
SERVED_USMC
03-16-11, 10:25
Anyone have the answer?
Don Robison
03-16-11, 10:52
If you're planning on going with an Ace type hinge the standard pistol trunion(flat plate) is fine. It only requires that you drill two holes for the hinge mounting screws. I suggest the Stormwerkz hinge over the Ace because it locks in both the open and closed position.
LonghunterCO
03-16-11, 12:40
I agree that, if going with the Ace or ace type then the pistol rear is probably the better. For mine I am going to be going to be changing out mine out for a standard stock attachment. That is because I plan on using a Romy folder, but the standard allows for an Ace adapter, a regular stock, or some of the K-var options with a little as undoing two screws.
-My paper work has been with the BATFE for three weeks as of tomorrow.
Mine is complete:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco89.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco90.jpg
Mine is complete:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco89.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco90.jpg
Very nice! what rail system is that?
Very nice! what rail system is that?
Looks like the Ultimak to me.
The hand guard also?
That's what it looks to me like.
The full Ultimak set.
For what it's worth, the original military guns was the AIM carbine or AIMR. I have seen it both ways from western sources. One historical note, they were used by Serbian security forces in the Yugo civil war. The originals were underfolders and used a bird cage type flash hider.
By the way, if anyone knows a source for the parts (bbl, gas tube, piston, gas block) please let me know. KVAR carried them years ago. I can only hope with Draco's hitting the market these parts might become available again.
That's what it looks to me like.
The full Ultimak set.
Yep, both are Ultimaks:
upper rail/gas tube- ultimak M1-B (gas tube will need to be cut down)
lower rail- ACR2-SC-stamped - (21 slot rail)
Don Robison
03-23-11, 22:12
Yep, both are Ultimaks:
upper rail/gas tube- ultimak M1-B (gas tube will need to be cut down)
lower rail- ACR2-SC-stamped - (21 slot rail)
Or you can use the M7-B for the AMD 65 which what Ultimak recomends since it doesn't require any mods.
How does the Draco get enough back pressure and dwell time? Would a Noveske KX3 help it function even better at all?
QuietShootr
04-01-11, 07:01
They actually covered this in SAR this month. I think they went with an ACE folding stock.
One of my friends just did this with the short Ace stock. It's slicker than owl shit. I'm not an AK enthusiast but I am probably going to get one.
By the way, if anyone knows a source for the parts (bbl, gas tube, piston, gas block) please let me know. KVAR carried them years ago. I can only hope with Draco's hitting the market these parts might become available again.
I highly doubt it would be coming from K-Var. They got burned pretty bad by the Romanians and stopped carrying any parts sourced from them.
Don Robison
04-01-11, 07:52
How does the Draco get enough back pressure and dwell time? Would a Noveske KX3 help it function even better at all?
Not needed, it was designed to run with the gas system it has and it does quite well.
Not needed, it was designed to run with the gas system it has and it does quite well.
So whats different about it other than the length of the piston?
LonghunterCO
04-02-11, 09:55
So whats different about it other than the length of the piston?
Piston length is shorter because the gas system is shorter than the standard AK system. In addition to that the gas block has the weapons front site built-in, vs. the standard AK that has the front sight base seperate from the gas block.
Tomahawk_Ghost
04-04-11, 13:25
Something I just thought about and want to run it here. When putting an underfolder on a Draco do you need the reinforcement plate under the grip?
http://www.nodakspud.com/images/NDS-1Pplate-2.jpg
I highly doubt it would be coming from K-Var. They got burned pretty bad by the Romanians and stopped carrying any parts sourced from them.
I am talking about 10 or so years ago. I got a red Romanian Bakelite furniture set with a molded VFG and the AIMR flash hider. The gas tube, sight block, bbl, and operating rod use to be carried on their site but were usually out of stock.
LonghunterCO
04-04-11, 23:03
Something I just thought about and want to run it here. When putting an underfolder on a Draco do you need the reinforcement plate under the grip?
http://www.nodakspud.com/images/NDS-1Pplate-2.jpg
I have put them on builds because I was looking to replicate a specific model of AK. I can not tell that they stiff'n up the rear of the receiver any. If you are pulling the pistol rear out of it to place the folder rear in it and you like the look, then go for it (you just lay it into position and hit it with a spot welder). It is easy to do at that level of disasembly, but if you have one of the older with the folder rear already in it then I would leave it alone (or have someone plug weld it in, again if you like to look). YMMV.
Here's one with a sidefolder (not mine).
http://44mag.commercev3.com/images/0410_1.jpg
http://44mag.commercev3.com/images/0410_2.jpg
This has been an interesting thread to read, some great info. I had been wanting to get both an SBR and some kind of AK in the future. I'm thinking I could kill two birds with one stone here :)
What considerations are there to keep in mind when buying a Draco. I am assuming that they are not all made equal.
Thanks.
MilitaryArms
04-09-11, 08:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDzdlPbWmWQ
I just got the paper work back on my Draco and installed the stock this week (video of that process above).
Here's what it looks like now:
http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/1243333315_fLihS-L.jpg
I am talking about 10 or so years ago. I got a red Romanian Bakelite furniture set with a molded VFG and the AIMR flash hider. The gas tube, sight block, bbl, and operating rod use to be carried on their site but were usually out of stock.
Yep, but they got burned bad by the Romanians and that's why it's always "out of stock", they won't be restocked.
MilitaryArms
04-09-11, 08:51
Here's an old picture of Romanian forces using AIMR rifles.
http://hulubei.net/tudor/photography/photos/R/o/Romanian-Revolution-103-760x482.jpg
I thought it was an interesting pic.
ScottMo
Or anyone who knows..
What muzzle device? PSC47?
Is that the Ultimak lower rail? Tight?
If so how does it work reg muzzle lift & flash. Any night video?
LonghunterCO
04-09-11, 12:51
This has been an interesting thread to read, some great info. I had been wanting to get both an SBR and some kind of AK in the future. I'm thinking I could kill two birds with one stone here :)
What considerations are there to keep in mind when buying a Draco. I am assuming that they are not all made equal.
Thanks.
Kind-of the regular AK shopping "things to look for":
Non-canted front sight
No excessive side-to-side wobble in mag well with mag incerted (should not be a problem with these as they are not imported as single stack mags)
Matching numbers are nice but not necessary (trunnion, bolt, carrier, dust cover)
There are ones that are our there with the short cleaning rod,nice but not nesessary.
If you are looking to build a underfolder then look for one of the older models with the folder stock attachment in the receiver.
Kind-of the regular AK shopping "things to look for":
Non-canted front sight
No excessive side-to-side wobble in mag well with mag incerted (should not be a problem with these as they are not imported as single stack mags)
Matching numbers are nice but not necessary (trunnion, bolt, carrier, dust cover)
There are ones that are our there with the short cleaning rod,nice but not nesessary.
If you are looking to build a underfolder then look for one of the older models with the folder stock attachment in the receiver.
One problem I've had with my Draco is that some magazines simply won't snap in. I had a similar issue with a home build on a Vulcan receiver years back, but oddly enough, some mags that work in that build won't fit in the Draco, and vice-versa. This is one reason I've been seriously considering getting a Nodak Spud 'Khyber Pass' receiver and just having the Draco cut up for parts to build a completely new SBR. Since I already have a triangle side-folder assembly, it seems like a better overall path than trying to fight mags into the Draco receiver.
Thanks for the pointers. From what I have seen so far, I am liking the sidefolders. Is there a brand of mags that are known to be good as far Dracos go or is totally dependent on the magwell itself. I am assuming the later.
LonghunterCO
04-09-11, 15:21
One problem I've had with my Draco is that some magazines simply won't snap in. I had a similar issue with a home build on a Vulcan receiver years back, but oddly enough, some mags that work in that build won't fit in the Draco, and vice-versa. This is one reason I've been seriously considering getting a Nodak Spud 'Khyber Pass' receiver and just having the Draco cut up for parts to build a completely new SBR. Since I already have a triangle side-folder assembly, it seems like a better overall path than trying to fight mags into the Draco receiver.
I have had to problem on several homebuilds (on 80% flats). The issues seems to be that the trigger guard assembly is too far foward on the receiver. The casuses the mag catch to enguage the mag tab too high on the angle causing the mag catch to never fully catch. Some trim the mag tab!?! Basically setting up only modified mags for that build. I trip the mag catch where is enguages the mag tab (shorten it up). The builds then run with any AK mag. YMMV
I have had to problem on several homebuilds (on 80% flats). The issues seems to be that the trigger guard assembly is too far foward on the receiver. The casuses the mag catch to enguage the mag tab too high on the angle causing the mag catch to never fully catch. Some trim the mag tab!?! Basically setting up only modified mags for that build. I trip the mag catch where is enguages the mag tab (shorten it up). The builds then run with any AK mag. YMMV
I thought about shortening the mag catch, but since some of my mags work fine, I'm worried that they'll become too loose if I do so. Since my 20-round stamped Chinese and Hungarian mags fit the underfolder and Draco both, and those are the ones I plan to use most often, I just left it alone for now.
LonghunterCO
04-10-11, 10:51
I thought about shortening the mag catch, but since some of my mags work fine, I'm worried that they'll become too loose if I do so. Since my 20-round stamped Chinese and Hungarian mags fit the underfolder and Draco both, and those are the ones I plan to use most often, I just left it alone for now.
My experience is that many of those mags that work are just clearing, and that they run better (as well as those that are not right now) with the mag catch modification. YMMV
ScottMo
Or anyone who knows..
What muzzle device? PSC47?
Is that the Ultimak lower rail? Tight?
If so how does it work reg muzzle lift & flash. Any night video?
Yep, it's the FSC47. The Ultimak's, both upper and lower are very solid. No video as of yet.
With the stock and red dot combo, I ended up cutting/opening up my front sight to give me a little more height as my red dot ended up sitting right at the top of the front sight.
Unfinished product:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco3-2.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff157/scocor83/draco1-2.jpg
I finished up my Draco conversion to a SBR using a ultimax rail, ctr stock and us palm grip. A little front heavy but loads of fun to shoot.
http://www.hobbyhorse.com/RPD/new_draco1.jpg
Nice! That's a really slick looking little AK.
--Josh H.
I finished up my Draco conversion to a SBR using a ultimax rail, ctr stock and us palm grip. A little front heavy but loads of fun to shoot.
http://www.hobbyhorse.com/RPD/new_draco1.jpg
That looks great and I'm guessing a bucketload of fun to shoot. I would like to handle this kind of setup before attempting to put one together myself. Haven't seen anything locally yet though and will probably just dive in at some point :) Thanks for posting the pic.
Would you mind sharing about what the whole project cost?
-B
LonghunterCO
07-11-11, 21:48
Not letting this slip to page four...
Got my Stamp back and have removed the rear trunnion. It is going to the smith on Wednesday for fixed stock trunnion set and then weld/park/finish. Will post pictures after it gets back.
-I am not going to debate the internet discussion on 922r compliance on a NFA items, so for those that are looking for 922r parts (outside of the regular AK compliance parts stocks, muzzle devices, grips, forestock, FCG) CNC Warrior is now making U.S. 922r Draco length gas pistons (he has not added them to his sight yet but just finished them last week). They are very nice. Great workmanship fast, well priced, shipping.
I finished up my Draco conversion to a SBR using a ultimax rail, ctr stock and us palm grip. A little front heavy but loads of fun to shoot.
http://www.hobbyhorse.com/RPD/new_draco1.jpg
That is very nice! Which ultimax did u use? Did u have to trim much?
devilsdeeds
07-12-11, 10:18
From Don Robison -
"you can use the M7-B for the AMD 65 which is what Ultimak recomends since it doesn't require any mods."
LonghunterCO
07-28-11, 16:08
Here's an old picture of Romanian forces using AIMR rifles.
http://hulubei.net/tudor/photography/photos/R/o/Romanian-Revolution-103-760x482.jpg
I thought it was an interesting pic.
This was the inspiration for my Draco SBR. I just picked it up last night.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/Longhunter-CO/DracoSBR.jpg
beautiful setup. I keep getting the notion from many that the Draco was never a factory setup.
Well......it is :D
This was the inspiration for my Draco SBR. I just picked it up last night.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/Longhunter-CO/DracoSBR.jpg
That looks great! Nice classic look.
BellyUpFish
12-18-11, 21:49
Anyone have any comments on the Mini-Draco as an SBR?
I think I'm going to back order 2 of them tomorrow.. I was all set on the "regular" Draco, but the mini has my attention..
Tomahawk_Ghost
12-19-11, 12:27
Anyone have any comments on the Mini-Draco as an SBR?
I think I'm going to back order 2 of them tomorrow.. I was all set on the "regular" Draco, but the mini has my attention..
Wasn't the mini-draco just a limited run pistol. You may have a hard time finding them.
Wasn't the mini-draco just a limited run pistol. You may have a hard time finding them.
Actually as of the last month at least, it's easier to find the mini than the standard Draco. While I was looking, only Classic Arms had the Draco, while several vendors had the mini version in stock.
BellyUpFish
12-19-11, 20:46
Actually as of the last month at least, it's easier to find the mini than the standard Draco. While I was looking, only Classic Arms had the Draco, while several vendors had the mini version in stock.
Who had the mini? I backordered 2 today from Classic, along with 2 Saiga's, but I'd love to find them in stock somewhere..
Who had the mini? I backordered 2 today from Classic, along with 2 Saiga's, but I'd love to find them in stock somewhere..
Atlantic & Midwest both had them in stock when I was calling around.
I SBR'ed a regular Draco earlier this year. I put a VZ58 stock on it because it seems to result in the most compact folded package. It folds to the right and doesn't stick out any further than the charging handle. That's pretty much all I've done to it...kind of lost interest in it while waiting for the stamp. One of these days I'll put an Ultimak on it with a RDS and light.
BTW, drilling and tapping the trunnion was a bitch. Don't even try using cheap Chinese made tooling for this.
BellyUpFish
12-20-11, 10:55
Atlantic & Midwest both had them in stock when I was calling around.
Atlantic is out.. I'll try Midwest, thanks.
BTW, drilling and tapping the trunnion was a bitch. Don't even try using cheap Chinese made tooling for this.
I've heard it's very hard back there.. I'll have to get some quality bits.. ;)
trukreltrog
12-20-11, 18:47
Anyone have any comments on the Mini-Draco as an SBR?
I think I'm going to back order 2 of them tomorrow.. I was all set on the "regular" Draco, but the mini has my attention..
Do it,,, :D
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/trukreltrog/Hortons/DSCI0001.jpg
It's together now with an MI rail. :cool:
BellyUpFish
12-20-11, 21:41
Do it,,, :D
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/trukreltrog/Hortons/DSCI0001.jpg
It's together now with an MI rail. :cool:
Oohh nice.. Have any pics with the MI rail on it? Is that a Kx3?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDzdlPbWmWQ
I just got the paper work back on my Draco and installed the stock this week (video of that process above).
Here's what it looks like now:
http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/1243333315_fLihS-L.jpg
That is just my style. I like them blacked out. I did something similar with mine and added the TAPCO SAW grip because it fills the hand better but I didn't SBR it yet. I added a railed fore-end and added a TAPCO birdcage type muzzle device. I like the end product.
Reagans Rascals
12-26-11, 14:56
I've been researching the hell out of these things for the past month or so.
From what I'm reading, Draco's are a great deal and an easy means to an SBR down the road, if you choose to go that route. I've also read about canted FSB's, and some other common problems associated with lower end AK's. Luckily, it also seems that Century is very good about replacing them. (Also, like lloyd said, Century only imports these, as they aren't subject to 922r. 922r is the only reason Century messes with the AK rifles they import, and sometimes muck up) I know some people hear "Century" and run in the other direction.:D But being that it's an AK........if it runs, it'll most likely run like a raped ape and give you many years of enjoyment and reliability.
Most people opt to go with an Ace stock adapter, like Steyr mentioned, when putting a stock on it. You can drill/tap right into the rear trunnion and you have a good amount of choices of stocks to use.
That's the meat and potatoes of what I've found on the Draco since I started researching them. Now it's only matter of me getting the $375 flat for my FFL to order me one. I can't wait.
This is my inspiration:
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0028.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0020.jpg
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0021.jpg
That thing makes me drool. Funny thing is.......that Ultimak lower tri-rail retails for almost as much as a Draco itself!:eek::D
(That's not mine. It's a guy named "Gardner" on Arfcom)
I buying one of those rails right now. That is simply amazing
Do it,,, :D
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/trukreltrog/Hortons/DSCI0001.jpg
It's together now with an MI rail. :cool:
That is the first mini that I actually like. Looks good man.
firearmslawyer
02-10-12, 10:57
Here is what I did with my Draco SBR project. I removed the original rear trunnion myself and had the proper rear trunnion riveted in (thanks to Troy at InRange C2!) and stuck a new surplus E. German folder on it.
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20R%20Side%20Open%20Pic1.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20L%20Side%20Open%20Pic2.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20R%20Side%20Folded%20Pic3.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20L%20Side%20Folded%20Pic4.JPG
The Mini Draco SBR Form 1 check got cashed on January 5th. Hopefully by Halloween it will be approved! Gonna put a full wood buttstock on that one. Will post pics when that project gets done.
Looks like all the Dracos have vanished. Gunbroker, Auction Arms, GunsAmerica, etc. have next to nothing. Yikes! If you can find 'em, buy 'em!
CT
Is that some sort of booster? I didn't think that it needs one to run.
firearmslawyer
02-10-12, 16:29
Nah, that's just a Noveske Fire Pig flash hider to deal with the concussion and direct the explosion/blast/noise away from the shooter. Lots of unburned powder coming out of that muzzle! Works well!
CT
Yep...needs a FH:lol:....thanks for the SBR inspiration fellas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tmP2RpRtC4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Does anyone know a current source for Romanian parts?
trukreltrog
02-28-12, 13:25
Do it,,, :D
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/trukreltrog/Hortons/DSCI0001.jpg
It's together now with an MI rail. :cool:
Here's mine updated, a hacksaw and a dremel to fit the T-1 top cover. :D
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/trukreltrog/Hortons/003.jpg
And I FINALLY got mine done.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000001672.jpg
LonghunterCO
03-16-12, 07:12
And I FINALLY got mine done.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000001672.jpg
Outstanding.
1298412985129861298712988
MiamiSniper
07-26-12, 19:34
I have 3 waiting on papers....
http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo343/provinyl/CIMG0388.jpg
I have 3 waiting on papers....
http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo343/provinyl/CIMG0388.jpg
Nice Draco's. I have one Draco that I SBR'd.
Been looking for a Mini Draco. But no luck. I should have picked one up last year.
Here's my Draco-C that I SBR'd.
13025
MiamiSniper
07-27-12, 21:26
Nice Draco's. I have one Draco that I SBR'd.
Been looking for a Mini Draco. But no luck. I should have picked one up last year.
they are very hard to find now...
hatchtrikk
07-28-12, 10:56
I wanna play:D
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/hatchtrikk13/Drake8.jpg
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/hatchtrikk13/Drake7.jpg
Russian side folder installed by Troy@InRange.
they are very hard to find now...
I just sold one for almost double what I paid for it two years ago. It was a good investment.
MiamiSniper
07-28-12, 19:41
I wanna play:D
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/hatchtrikk13/Drake8.jpg
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/hatchtrikk13/Drake7.jpg
Russian side folder installed by Troy@InRange.
Nice.....
MiamiSniper
07-28-12, 19:42
I just sold one for almost double what I paid for it two years ago. It was a good investment.
I saw mini's go for $1k around my area....
I saw mini's go for $1k around my area....
I'm not paying $1K for a Mini:no:. That's why I have a Arsenal SLR107-UR SBR.:D
I saw mini's go for $1k around my area....
Damn man! I sure as hell didn't get 1k. But if the market is paying it....
fail wagon
08-02-12, 12:30
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww254/Gardner37/DSC_0028.jpg
Yes please
I'm waiting to receive my stamp right now.
I haven't really decided which way to go in terms of mounting the stock.
The ACE Folder method only needs a pair of holes drilled and tapped but part of me whats to replace the rear trunion with the standard tang to not only mount a polish folder, but possibly one of the new Bonesteel folding adapters so I can run an AR stock.
Has anyone had any problems as the round counts increased? I know these are basically military rifles imported as pistols, but I remember there being issues with headspacing on some of the guns.
but I remember there being issues with headspacing on some of the guns.
Despite the fact that they are sold as "new", most of the parts are in fact from demilled rifles. My trunion is marked as being manufactured in 1979. An oversized barrel pin was installed. Unfortunately, the headspace is short. It won't chamber a variety of 7.62x39 cartridges that I have with the exception of some reloads that I made. It also won't close on my East German Go gauge. I'm going to have to adjust the headspace by filing the locking lugs a bit. Wish me luck. I obviously should have check all this prior to getting my stamp. On the plus side, all the serial numbers match.
Just got my Tax-Stamp back.
Now I'm hunting for an engraver and someone to drill and tap two holes in the trunnion for the ACE folder. Really looking forward to putting it together.
Just got my Tax-Stamp back.
Now I'm hunting for an engraver and someone to drill and tap two holes in the trunnion for the ACE folder. Really looking forward to putting it together.
Congrats, and enjoy.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/kdcgrohl/firearms/2012-06-15_16-43-28_610.jpg
albatrossarmament
06-06-13, 12:56
Romanian underfolder installed. First run. In the second video, you can see the shooter is having trouble with one magazine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLkbg43dzCA
Everybody was out of the folding stock adapter so I went with pig nose. The bolt hole pattern is the same but I got busy with some other projects and haven't had a chance to swap it out.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-idmtmaUJ-I4/Ua_9slt1bCI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Zj0r8TrA1_o/s640/Draco%2520SBR.JPG
Everybody was out of the folding stock adapter so I went with pig nose. The bolt hole pattern is the same but I got busy with some other projects and haven't had a chance to swap it out.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-idmtmaUJ-I4/Ua_9slt1bCI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Zj0r8TrA1_o/s640/Draco%2520SBR.JPGHow do you like that rail? I'm still awaiting stamp for my Draco, and have been eying that slick mofo.
Here is what I did with my Draco SBR project. I removed the original rear trunnion myself and had the proper rear trunnion riveted in (thanks to Troy at InRange C2!) and stuck a new surplus E. German folder on it.
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20R%20Side%20Open%20Pic1.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20L%20Side%20Open%20Pic2.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20R%20Side%20Folded%20Pic3.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/magdump/submachineguns/websize/Draco%20SBR%20L%20Side%20Folded%20Pic4.JPG
The Mini Draco SBR Form 1 check got cashed on January 5th. Hopefully by Halloween it will be approved! Gonna put a full wood buttstock on that one. Will post pics when that project gets done.
Looks like all the Dracos have vanished. Gunbroker, Auction Arms, GunsAmerica, etc. have next to nothing. Yikes! If you can find 'em, buy 'em!
CT
I like it; I have a ton of AK magazines, so this should be my fifth stamp! On your Form 1, what did you place as your overall length?
Finally someone did it right....
Thank you.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
albatrossarmament
06-14-13, 09:08
I like it; I have a ton of AK magazines, so this should be my fifth stamp! On your Form 1, what did you place as your overall length?
30" for mine.
How do you like that rail? I'm still awaiting stamp for my Draco, and have been eying that slick mofo.
Sorry for the slow response. Enough people complained about the heat that they came out with bolt on handguard panels.I don't think it is that big of an issue but I haven't done too many mag dumps. The handguard bolts to the barrel so there is some heat transfer. The only down side is that I had to cut off the front handguard retainer as it wouldn't let the handguard mounts mate up with the barrel. A couple minutes with the Dremel and it was gone. It is possible to replace the retainer but the front sight has to come off.
Sorry for the slow response. Enough people complained about the heat that they came out with bolt on handguard panels.I don't think it is that big of an issue but I haven't done too many mag dumps. The handguard bolts to the barrel so there is some heat transfer. The only down side is that I had to cut off the front handguard retainer as it wouldn't let the handguard mounts mate up with the barrel. A couple minutes with the Dremel and it was gone. It is possible to replace the retainer but the front sight has to come off.Thanks for info. Good to hear that consumer opinions are being heard, with options to suit preference. Not surprised about heat, slick lo pro rails seem to suffer that. Still want..
albatrossarmament
07-15-13, 08:03
Flash that can be expected...
wolf ammo, krinkov brake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS84jxIkK_Q&feature=youtu.be
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