View Full Version : I hate trying to be practical
I am currently deployed and am due to come home by New Years sometime. Obviously I cannot specify when. I am looking at buying myself a late Christmas/early Birthday present to replace my handgun I had to sell in harder times. This will be where some of my deployment money will go. Well the problem is I have a few choices to choose from and it is rather agrivating. I am TRYING to be practical but it is not completely working. I am concerned that some say you should not use a "customized" weapon due to liability is in my head. But I know in all practicality I am screwed one way or another either with the criminal system (if I screwed up) or will face a civil lawsuit (regardless). Many feel you should not use a weapon that cannot easily be replaced. And the favorite if you buy one buy two just in case the primary fails.
I am not really worried about caliber 9mm/40/45. Not a fan of .357 Sig or 10MM. Cost for ammo and accessories does pop into my head. Anyways here are my choices and if someone were to have some of these I would love to see side by side pics of them in comparison. Besides I know we all love to show off what we have.
First off is the HK P7 PSP. I could buy two for less than a new M8 and get one done up the way I want at a time. I prefer the M8 but with the prices of them as they are I was exploring the "surplus" models. I have always loved the P7 and shot it well (had some friends) plus with the PSP it does save the worry of an accidental mag release that some have had while CCing. I was looking at sending it off to get refinished with a weather resistant finish like NP3 or comprable. Night sights would be commercially availible Mepro or Trijicon cause Heinie's I have never seen availible. The bad side is if I get one the mags float at the $55.00 Plus realm.
Next Dan Wesson Valor SS CBOB. I also like the 1911's it has alot going for it and I have heard very few complaints. Mags are not that much more than for other firearms (alot cheaper than the HK). The only thing I would do is go shoot.
HK USP Compact 9/40/45: Been through HK's Armorers course for this and I can appreciate the design. Parts are expensive, accessories are pricy and it does not have a standard light rail. The bore sits higher than any on the list aside from the 1911. Night sights and that is about it.
Smith and Wesson M&P Full size. Affordable, good gun. I had a 40 (the one I had to sell) and I enjoyed it. Things to do to is send it off to APEX tactical for the trigger and "MAP". Cold Bore solutions stipple grip. Heinie night sights, CTC grip, X300 and 10-8 Mag base plates. Not sure if I want a full size model or a Compact 45. Not going for ambi safety obviously.
Glock 19: This one I have gone through armorers school years ago. I know the gun. I do not shoot it as well as the ones above. I would again replace the sights with Heinie sights, Vickers extended mag release, Glock extended slide release, stipple grip, remove finger grooves (gen II type grip) X300, Cold bore solutions trigger job and a grip plug.
My kit that I plan on getting for any of these is the following:
RCS Phantom Holster w/light
RCS Rubber belt loops for IWB
RCS Double mag pouch
RCS Single mag pouch
RCS Surefire mag pouch. (6P LED)
Wilderness 1.5" 5 stitch riggers belt
Emerson Commander Wave Combo Satin (replace my worse for wear benchmade)
ASP key defender
S&W "tactical pens" (2)
I should have everything covered. Then ordering a case of ammo, extra mags and going to the range to shoot. I plan on getting a PACT timer for the range to practice. I plan on going to TDI when I get out and go back home.
FWIW I have been through a few classes. I am also a weapons instructor presently so I am not walking into this blind I can most definately appreciate the value of good training and continuously working on the basics.
So the practical side says stay with the SW or the Glock. I would love to have twins just in case plus it would be good to have when friends that I know are not shooters would like to try. I have a 442 right now but I am looking at replacing it eventually with a smaller semi auto (a topic for discussion at a later time)
So should I be practical? Should I just say the heck with it and get one of my old favorites that will cost me more and then revisit the list again to pick up two smiths or glocks? I hate not being able to decide. I just thought I would ask you all and see what your input might be.
Thanks!
Matt
I might have missed it but I didn't see what you want the gun for? I assume SD/HD and if that is the case, I'd say S&W or Glock (or SIG).
I had a friend that had to shoot an intruder years ago. The guy he shot was never found; there was blood everywhere but the guy was never caught. YET, the cops confiscated his gun...which he never got back. So, the guy he shot was loose, yet the cops left him without a gun?? For that reason, (or one could get stolen or broken or ...?) I would prefer to have two very reliable practical common handgun-like a Glock, M&P, & SIG that I was very familiar with.
It's easier (cheaper) to have two $500-600 guns than two $2000 ones to have a backup. If I ever got in my buddy's situation, I would rather have a $500-600 gun confiscated vs. a $2000 one.
Looks like you've got it figured out. Personally, I wouldn't get customized, at least until you get your basic SD/HD guns in hand.
But maybe it's just me... :)
.
Crow Hunter
10-14-10, 08:03
I am all about practicality.
A gun that you shoot well and have armorers training for would be ideal.
To ucrt's point, something that you can afford to have multiple's in is even better.
Personally I went G19 years ago. My wife has one as well and we have a spare (that I won at a GSSF match) should something go amiss with one of the primaries.
My advice is G19 because of the sheer availability of parts and accessories and the fact that later you could get a G26 to replace the 442 with the same manual of arms/mags.
Another good thing is GSSF which is a benefit that I don't understand why other manufacturer's don't imitate. Buying a Glock at a discount and being able to get into the armorers course are worth the price of admission themselves even if you never go to a match.
I don't have personal experience with the M&P but alot of people seem to like it.
On a practical note then, buy the cheapest of the bunch and learn to use it. That would be the G19, which you said you didn't particularly shoot well with. Instead, and because you said you liked it, buy another M&P. Since caliber isn't your primary concern just buy a M&P9 and you will be able to shoot more than with a .40. If you're willing to go with a G19, then I don't see why you would entertain a M&P45.
I went the G19 route and have learned to shoot glocks adequately thus far. I have since bought backups because they are so cheap and I can use the same kit. I also have an M&P40 that I got for a steal from a buddy, but it was just an experiment and I'm keeping it to have something in a different caliber. I would hold off on the lasers and grip stippling, unless you did the stippling yourself.
I think you have two threads of thinking in your current options: 1) classic and 2) fighting. The P7s and 1911 would definitely fit in the first category, but they could with a lot of work and money fit into the second. But since the other half of your thinking includes a weapon mounted light you should ask yourself why you would limit that option by the gun of your choice.
I thought I heard that emersons locks or pivots were not very robust? Maybe not...you may want to look into that.
rjohnson4405
10-14-10, 11:47
<quote>I am looking at buying myself a late Christmas/early Birthday present to replace my handgun I had to sell in harder times.</quote>
If this is your one handgun you own that you need to carry/use in a SD/HD situation, don't go for something exotic.
Pick up a custom/more rare gun later once you've got a simple, reliable, go-to handgun.
In your case sounds like the M&P9 is the obvious choice.
There's just a better chance the M&P will run than the 1911, mags are cheaper than the HK, and you shoot it better than the Glock. Plus it's not so fancy you'll feel bad putting high round counts and cheap ammunition through it. Or running it hard in training
My vote is for the M&P9/9c or the Glock 19, depending on which you shoot better.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-14-10, 11:58
what about a P30? or HK45?
Business_Casual
10-14-10, 12:58
FYI - There are a myriad of threads on the merits of each decision - a lot of them captured in the sticky threads.
Glock 19...
B_C
Two Glock 19s, and an Advantage Arms .22 kit.
If you want to play around a bit then you can get a .40 slide and barrels for both .40 and .357Sig, now you have a gun that can shoot four different calibers.
Having a copy of your primary carry/defense pistol is a very good idea. Guns will eventually break if you actually shoot them, and using one for even the most righteous of defensive shootings will mean your pistol is in the evidence room for who knows how long.
I can appreciate the sticky threads and search function. I used them. I did not find the answer to my question so I posted it here. I do appologize if anyone feels I have wasted your time it was not my intention to such a thing. I was not aware that my post was in violation of any of the posted rules. As all of you can see I have been a member for a while and mainly just read on here. I do usually use the search engine.
I appreciate everyones time in reading this and thier responses.
The only reason I say no to the HK45 or P30 for no other reason than I am the odd ball that just does not like the way they feel in hand. They are great guns as always from HK but I just don't like them. I would if going HK prefer the USP. I think they should have just made a universal light rail and watched the sales go up.
The Glock 19 I shoot well but to me just not as well as the Smith, 1911, P7, HK USP.
9mm ammo cost less. Also could get .40 & .357sig barrels. Lighter trigger too.
So what do you shoot the best?
If its reliable and you can afford it that would seem the best choice to me...but then what would you have to think about?:D
I went the G19 route. I shoot the M9 best and you probably know why but it isn't my favorite. For me the "G" is the best when it comes to size vs capacity and its reputation for reliability is outstanding. Ammo cost for practice was also a factor.
My favorite gun is the 1911 but that isn't what I keep for SD.
Good luck with your choice and deployment.
Grumpy MSG
10-14-10, 20:34
Smith and Wesson M&P Full size. Affordable, good gun. I had a 40 (the one I had to sell) and I enjoyed it. Things to do to is send it off to APEX tactical for the trigger and "MAP". Cold Bore solutions stipple grip. Heinie night sights, CTC grip, X300 and 10-8 Mag base plates. Not sure if I want a full size model or a Compact 45. Not going for ambi safety obviously.
Glock 19: This one I have gone through armorers school years ago. I know the gun. I do not shoot it as well as the ones above. I would again replace the sights with Heinie sights, Vickers extended mag release, Glock extended slide release, stipple grip, remove finger grooves (gen II type grip) X300, Cold bore solutions trigger job and a grip plug.
You already have candidate you like, are familiar with, and have owned in the past in the M & P. I suggest you put that at the top of your list of possibilites. I know this is going to sound like blasphemy to some folks, but you say you don't shoot Glocks as well so I suggest you drop it from your list.
One manufacturer that hasn't been mentioned is Sig. There was just something comfortable about them in my hands from the moment I first picked one up. I shoot them better than I do most pistols and you can get them with the trigger configuration the way you like it , double action only, decocker single/ double.
Once upon a time I had a 228 and it was a great little gun. But my big brother loved it more than I and convinced me to sell it to him. He will be burried with that gun I am sure. I like the sigs but the majority of then I find to be rather thick for CCW for me. I just do not wear one well. Plus for the price Sig wants for thier guns you might as well slap an HK emblem on them. But the 228 will always have a place in my heart and I am sure I will get another sig eventually just not this go around.
MarshallDodge
10-14-10, 23:21
I will comment on the ones that I have personal experience-
Dan Wesson Valor SS CBOB- This is a really nice gun for the money. I had an older pre-Valor version (2006 era) that ran really well but had a couple premature part failures. Dan Wesson said that they had an issue with these parts and fixed it at no charge. The parts did not affect reliability but I sold it when I found a deal on a newer one.
The replacement has become my wife's daily carry. She shoots 2-300 rounds a month through it and the reliability has been 100% using Tripp 8 round mags. We did have an issue with the hammer spur breaking off where it loops back. Once again this did not affect reliability but I called DW, they admitted that they had a supplier issue, and sent me a new hammer at no charge. The new Valor versions have a forged frame and the parts quality looks like they upgraded quite a few items which makes me feel better if I were to purchase another one. If you were to buy one, get some good mags for it and shoot it hard before carrying it. Dan Wesson will take care of you if you have any issues.
Smith and Wesson M&P Full size- I own an M&P40 and M&P45c. The 45c has 400 rounds through it and the only issue I have had is that it will not feed my semi-wadcutter reloads. Kind of surprises me when the same loads run great in all my 1911's including the CBOB. I do love the package and find it really easy to carry.
The M&P40 was purchased used as a range toy. It is an older model so the issues I have had could be chalked up to bugs that S&W should have ironed out by now. It had a striker failure early on and I am testing some new mags to see if some of the occasional (every 250ish rounds) feeding issues go away. For a striker fired gun I find it to be the easiest to shoot and the ergonomics are pretty sweet. Accuracy is much better than I expected.
I have shot MichaelD's M&P9c and really like that gun. If S&W decided to make on in a mid-size package I think they would have a winner. His has a lot of rounds through it but has held up well and is reliable.
Glock 19- Not much to say here. I am not a huge Glock fan but I own one, the G19, and it is the only one I would own. I like shooting my M&P better but the Glock's legendary reliability is evident in this one.
Based on this experience and what I have read, all of your choices would work well. Like any firearm purchase, when the deal is done, take it out and run it hard before trusting it. :cool:
glock 19 and a p7 would be good...
i love my p7, but i prefer glocks for gaming, and i like having the 15 round mag for home defensive use. probably the mag capacity is irrelevant practically speaking, but it's a good feeling knowing you probably won't run out of bullets.
the p7 is a really really sweet gun. i bought mine as a novelty, but i shoot it super well, and it carries nicely. :)
I'd go Vbob. I handled one at the local store the other day and it reminded me of more of my dads Les Baer Custom than my TRP Operator...
Of the above guns I would go with the VBOB no questions asked. Major caliber, classic 1911, fun to shoot, I'd drop the RCS and go with a fine leather holster from Milt or similar.
Something about leather and a 1911... I guess I may be old fashioned.
OK I am going to disregard the HK models.
Dan Wesson is still on the list along with the M&P and glock. I think I am going to figure out what I am looking at having done on the two polymers and see which one comes out on top.
lloydkristmas
10-15-10, 10:31
OK I am going to disregard the HK models.
Dan Wesson is still on the list along with the M&P and glock. I think I am going to figure out what I am looking at having done on the two polymers and see which one comes out on top.
I know the M&P is highly liked around here, but my experiences with them have been less than stellar. They shoot great and handle well, but I have experienced reliability issues with both that I have used.
My go to gun has always been a variation of the HK USP. I have a Compact 9mm and a Full Size .45. A lot of people talk down on the HK's for various reasons, but in the end, they are dead-reliable pistols that (in my experience) have NEVER failed. I've owned 7 different variations of USP pistols over thousands of rounds and never had a problem, not one. The bore axis is a little high, but not really any worse than the offerings from SIG. If anything, the USP is slimmer than the SIG. The SIG and USP (at least in MY experience) will not jam when limp wristed like the Glock will.
Parts might be expensive, I honestly dont know. Over 7 USP's and probably 15,000 rounds, I have never needed any spare parts.
My vote would be skip the 1911, skip the Glock if you dont shoot it well. Skip the M&P. Look at older SIGs (like from the early 1990's) and HK. You can see where my vote lies :)
**ETA: I forgot you mentioned the P7. They are EXCELLENT guns, probably the nicest pistol HK has made, and probably one of the nicest pistols ever built. They make for a great carry gun, but the single stack mag is less than desireable (in my opinion) for anything but carrying. Sounds like you need something to double as a carry weapon and a fighting weapon. For that reason, as nice as they are, I'd skip the P7 and look into the USPC9mm or P2000 9mm
From what you have told us I would recommend the M&P. I was down between the M&P and Glock. Went to the gun range, held, shot, and examined both. It was an easy decision for me.
**ETA: I forgot you mentioned the P7. They are EXCELLENT guns, probably the nicest pistol HK has made, and probably one of the nicest pistols ever built. They make for a great carry gun, but the single stack mag is less than desireable (in my opinion) for anything but carrying. Sounds like you need something to double as a carry weapon and a fighting weapon. For that reason, as nice as they are, I'd skip the P7 and look into the USPC9mm or P2000 9mm
yeah definitely a great carry gun, and so-so gaming/training/classes gun. If i didn't alraedy own a pair of 9mm glocks i wouldn't have bought a P7.
bondmid003
10-15-10, 16:31
My vote is for a USP .40
But you can't go wrong with a Glock .40 either
My dad brought up a similar point to the post above about potentially losing your handgun if you use it lawfully or not. It would really hurt to lose a really nice gun if you used it to defend yourself and the police never gave it back.
It's definitely hard, but I vote to stay practical - G19/SW MP. One of the best things I've done for my shooting skill is to do more with less. As a former owner of various handguns, I can say that my skill level spiked when I committed/consolidated to one platform that I shoot well and poured that extra money in training and ammo.
I don't regret selling a set of consecutive P7s to pay for a week class & ammo even though I didn't need to. That training was above and beyond what I could learn from standard training, which also probably saved my arse numerous times overseas. The way I looked at it at the time was, what good are the P7s if I end up in a cedar box unable to enjoy them. Besides, I shoot the 10-8 Pistol Test better with a G17 than a P7. YMMV.
My vote is for a USP .40
But you can't go wrong with a Glock .40 either
My dad brought up a similar point to the post above about potentially losing your handgun if you use it lawfully or not. It would really hurt to lose a really nice gun if you used it to defend yourself and the police never gave it back.
Yeah, but if it came down to that, I'd rather have a "good" gun when I needed it most. If I have it taken away... then at least it did its job. Small price to pay if you actually need it.
Rezarf You definately bring up a good point I think I may have been over looking.
Yeah, but if it came down to that, I'd rather have a "good" gun when I needed it most. If I have it taken away... then at least it did its job. Small price to pay if you actually need it.
True, but it's not like anyone is saying to buy a Hi Point in case it ends up in an evidence locker until the end of time. You shouldn't compromise on reliability due to that possibility, but I'd certainly rather have two Glock 19s for instance over a single HK45 (for roughly the same amount of money set up as they'd need to be) so that I had a backup on hand.
if you don't shoot the glock well get two m&ps
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