View Full Version : Why hasn't S&W copied Apex?
First off forgive me if this have been covered, but I haven't been able to find the thread if it has.
I plan on picking up a M&P9 with the APEX DCAEK due to the near universal praise of the APEX parts. I can't help but wonder why hasn't S&W taken APEX's trigger upgrades and added them to the M&P? Clearly APEX has figured out how to make the M&P trigger run "how it should" and all the parts drop in. I admit that I have no manufacturing knowledge so it may be too costly for Smith to retool for the parts or it may infringe on the intellectual property rights of APEX or Smith just doesn't care. I just find it strange the S&W will updated known problems such as the striker, but neglect implementing a better trigger.
Am I completely crazy or can someone help me out with this conundrum.
My M&P was sent off to S&W's Performance Center before Apex Tactical came into existence. As far as I can tell visually without full stripping, they changed out the sear (of course) and rounded off the striker block ala Glock trigger jobs. The feed ramp was also polished. I'm not sure what other parts were touched up as I didn't take a close look before sending it off over a year ago. It's actually light years beyond what the stock trigger felt like. Reset is much stronger compared to stock. I'm guessing the trigger is in the mid to high 4# range. I don't think they changed out any springs. To date I haven't had any stoppages based on the work/parts from S&W. Couldn't be happier.
Now had this been today, Apex of course with all the rave reviews.
Deleted rant. What's the point? LOL
G34Shooter
10-14-10, 18:50
Maybe they will be working with Apex in the future ;)
The M&P seems to be selling very well as-is - S&W probably sees no reason to mess with their cash cow.
I've got to send my 9 off to Apex, if I shoot it in the same session as my Gen 4 G22 or P30 LEM, I wind up short-stroking way too often.
I also wonder that if Smith is afraid that they will have to retrofit older pistols with new triggers if they change in a significant way.
All I know is that mine will be shipped by Grant to me with the goodies already installed. :)
Thanks for the compliments guys.
Smith is definitely responding to what they see and hear on this as well as other forums, and the feedback they get from LE agencies.
The way I see it is that the M&P platform is still evolving. We wouldn't be making parts an designing new mechanisms for the pistol if we did not think it had potential. Smith is a large company, so changes tend to take time. But fortunately they do come.
I hope to be able to work with both the LE Reps as well as the Engineers in the not too distant future. The more I work with the platform and shoot it, the more potential I see for the pistol. And if our parts make the pistol more enjoyable or perform better in the hands of operators and LEOs, then both Apex and Smith win.
-Randy
G34Shooter
10-14-10, 22:52
Thanks for the compliments guys.
Smith is definitely responding to what they see and hear on this as well as other forums, and the feedback they get from LE agencies.
The way I see it is that the M&P platform is still evolving. We wouldn't be making parts an designing new mechanisms for the pistol if we did not think it had potential. Smith is a large company, so changes tend to take time. But fortunately they do come.
I hope to be able to work with both the LE Reps as well as the Engineers in the not too distant future. The more I work with the platform and shoot it, the more potential I see for the pistol. And if our parts make the pistol more enjoyable or perform better in the hands of operators and LEOs, then both Apex and Smith win.
-Randy
:cool:
Bolt_Overide
10-14-10, 23:34
Apex is a 1000% improvement over stock, all mine have it, or will have it shortly.
Randy will hit a home run out of the park once he releases his trigger bar...AHEM! :)
As it stands right now the apex sear is a much crisper and distinct break but there is still WAY too much pre travel on this system, its actually a bigger problem once you delay the engagement of the sear by the trigger bar loop like you do with the Apex unit.
Smith doesnt really NEED to change the pistol. They simply work and they work well for the majority of the end users. People that want to push the limits of their pistol will do that with any platform, hence the creation of aftermarket parts and third party manufacturers.
I just recently removed three APEX sears from my guns and have gone back to stock sears as i find it easier to deal with less pre travel than more over travel when shooting at speed. Im probably in the minority here but i want to give it a whirl for a few thousand rounds and see how i perform at the end of the experiment. I may plop some over travel stops into my sear housings but that will kind of defeat the purpose of the test. :P
My son purchased an M&P 45 about 18 months ago & I purchased one 3 1/2 months ago. Not only was there a difference in the rear sight but the trigger out of the box was greatly improved smoothness & reset. So I would say that Smith is making improvements on this platform in response to it's customers feed back.
I think you will find that Smith will never put an Apex like trigger in their basic guns they are selling to the Average LEO or John Q Public. The Smith trigger is much more forgiving than a trigger that breaks crisply like the Apex when someone is under stress and more likely to have a brain fart.
Most LEO's and CCWs are not as savvy as the members of this forum and do not spend nearly the amount of time practicing their gun handling skills.
I just think most of us (here) are just too darn picky. I know a lot of officers that trust their lives with the M&P 100% stock out of the box and shoot it darn well. We're talking X-ringing it every time slow and rapid fire. 99% of those officers don't keep up with stuff like we do. What's Apex? What's a sear? I don't hear them complain about reset or lack thereof or how much take up it has. They haven't seen the light yet.. maybe they don't have to.
My son purchased an M&P 45 about 18 months ago & I purchased one 3 1/2 months ago. Not only was there a difference in the rear sight but the trigger out of the box was greatly improved smoothness & reset. So I would say that Smith is making improvements on this platform in response to it's customers feed back.
I think you will find that Smith will never put an Apex like trigger in their basic guns they are selling to the Average LEO or John Q Public. The Smith trigger is much more forgiving than a trigger that breaks crisply like the Apex when someone is under stress and more likely to have a brain fart.
Most LEO's and CCWs are not as savvy as the members of this forum and do not spend nearly the amount of time practicing their gun handling skills.
I think you are exactly correct why Smith uses the triggers they use. The people on this forum are shooters and know how to handle a pistol properly. Most people, including a large number of LEO, are not with a high chance of accidental discharge under stress. This is why you see a lot of departments putting heavier triggers and disconnectors on their Glocks. Some of these make the stock M&P pull seem downright light.
Also, while to us who use it the APEX kit does not seems expensive, to a mass production manufacturer, there is a real cost increase by using the APEX type parts. APEX machines their parts out of a high grade of tool steel whereas the Smith part is MIM, which is a much cheaper process. In this world of price competition being able to shave a few dollars can make a big difference, especially if you are submitting a bid to a large police department who does not really care what they buy but wants the cheapest price. Yes, I use the APEX, but I am willing to pay the money for the better trigger.
As some have pointed out, you just cannot hand a lot of folks (especially cops with no training) a gun with a 4lbs trigger. S&W knows this.
There are many refinements coming online (as we speak) to the M&P. The gun has changed radically over this past year. Couple that with APEX's quality products and you have a gun that is growing in popularity.
C4
The Apex sear is no doubt a huge improvement.
I wish Smith would make the trigger flatter. As I don't have well-padded sausage fingers, I find it very uncomfortable over extended shooting.
In the upcoming months, we will be releasing several new items. The RAM will be out shortly, as will a new forward setting sear that reduces pre travel. The new trigger, trigger bar etc.
Some LE agencies have already tested and evaluated our parts, and have officially approved our DCAEKs for use in duty and off duty pistols.
As Grant said, the M&P has changed a lot over this past year. Before December of last year most people had never heard of Apex. I hope that our name can grow alongside the increasing popularity of the M&P pistol.
If I can ever find some free time, I would even like to design a .22 conversion...
-Randy
I just think most of us (here) are just too darn picky. I know a lot of officers that trust their lives with the M&P 100% stock out of the box and shoot it darn well. We're talking X-ringing it every time slow and rapid fire. 99% of those officers don't keep up with stuff like we do. What's Apex? What's a sear? I don't hear them complain about reset or lack thereof or how much take up it has. They haven't seen the light yet.. maybe they don't have to.
I think that's it, and you don't know what you don't know.
And frankly, just because someone carries a gun every day doesn't mean they care about it's performance.
I mean I can only slightly comment, but, put it into perspective.
We carry guns largely because we choose too, I took the time to get my CWP, took the 8-hour class, spent over a thousand dollars on a gun, quality holster and spare magazine carrier, magazines, defensive pistol ammo, class, CWP application fees, because I wanted to.
Some guys, being a Police Officer is a 9 to 5 job, where they put on a pistol, and all of their other gear because they have to.
I mean sure there are a lot of great Law Enforcement Professionals, but there are some guys that simply don't care to improve their weapon, their abilities, train, etc. They're just happy passing qualifications and being employed, and that's about the limit of it. (Not saying that to be disrespectful to Police, but frankly, there's a bit of that in every single work environment, period, just fact of life)
Me and my brother were talking about guns, and I said any pistol I carry for self-defense will have Night Sights, no questions asked. We talked about prices and frankly he said he wouldn't pay for them or to have them installed.
It's a different set of priorities.
That being said, I've been on a wait list for a Raven Concealment Holster, Spare Magazine carrier and Concealable Belt clips for an M&P9 with a Thumb Safety since sometime in early August (I don't think about it, I find that things work better that way, I'm order number 10818, I ordered it August 9th), and I don't even own an M&P9 yet, but I figured I wanted what seems to be one of the best holsters out there, and I also figured if I didn't like it, I could sell it for what I paid for it, fairly easily. That's around $160 in holster equipment.
But I'll also buy an Apex DCAEK, Ameriglo I Dot Sights (when the ones I like become available for the M&P9) and an M&P 9 with Thumb Safety when I can.
But that's the difference. I'll have spent around what? 2,000-2,500$ in two years on just being able to carry a gun and carry the one I believe will serve me best in the fashion I see as best?
My Brother's priority is getting a handgun and that's about the extent of it.
Long response, but I feel that's probably why not a lot of people adopt the latest developments, etc.
ETA: In reflecting, not just the latest developments but really any developments at all, they just take it for what it is when they get it, and they may get a different gun one day and accept that for what it is, or they may just carry it on their hip for the rest of their career (ETA: I said carrier originally) as an 2 lb job requirement.
Not saying that as negative, but, also, not all Police are gun people either.
ETA: I also didn't want to give off the impression that I'm a Police Officer, I'm not. You see the same thing in the military, I have friends in the military, with Engineering degrees from that graduated West Point, that don't know crap about guns, sure they've used them but... that's about the extent of their interest.
If I can ever find some free time, I would even like to design a .22 conversion...
-Randy
Now thats something can can get on board with.
Randy,
Keep putting out quality products and you'll have a market. Just like there are all those aftermarket parts for Glocks and alike, theres always going to be a market for aftermarket M&P parts.
If I can ever find some free time, I would even like to design a .22 conversion...
-Randy
Please do. I think there's a market for it. I supposed many of the USPSA shooters using the M&P would be interested in one.
If I can ever find some free time, I would even like to design a .22 conversion...
-Randy
Randy, in the name of all that is good, right, just and holy....please make a .22 conversion.
There are many refinements coming online (as we speak) to the M&P. The gun has changed radically over this past year.
Grant, I was planning on picking up a full size M&P9 next month, but is there anything I should hold off for?
Just of curiosity, I wonder how many M&P owners actually learn to shoot with the stock trigger? Seems like everyone is modding them right out of the box. I've owned 3 M&Ps (still on the 3rd) and learned to shoot it out of the box. Curiosity lead me to the S&W Performance Center "action job". Did I need it? Nah..
And yes I'm pretty proficient with my weapons. I've competed in IDPA and non-sanctioned USPSA events. I am one of the few that keeps up with the Jones'. With that said, I do need to take a few handgun training courses other than what the dept puts out.
G34Shooter
10-15-10, 16:16
Just of curiosity, I wonder how many M&P owners actually learn to shoot with the stock trigger? Seems like everyone is modding them right out of the box. I've owned 3 M&Ps (still on the 3rd) and learned to shoot it out of the box. Curiosity lead me to the S&W Performance Center "action job". Did I need it? Nah..
And yes I'm pretty proficient with my weapons. I've competed in IDPA and non-sanctioned USPSA events. I am one of the few that keeps up with the Jones'. With that said, I do need to take a few handgun training courses other than what the dept puts out.
If I was stuck with the stock M&P trigger, I'd have stayed with my Glocks. Unless it is an issued weapon, why should anybody be 'stuck' with something they didn't prefer.
In the upcoming months, we will be releasing several new items. The RAM will be out shortly, as will a new forward setting sear that reduces pre travel. The new trigger, trigger bar etc.
Some LE agencies have already tested and evaluated our parts, and have officially approved our DCAEKs for use in duty and off duty pistols.
As Grant said, the M&P has changed a lot over this past year. Before December of last year most people had never heard of Apex. I hope that our name can grow alongside the increasing popularity of the M&P pistol.
If I can ever find some free time, I would even like to design a .22 conversion...
-Randy
Think you're busy now?? make .22 conversions and you may as well buy yourself a cot, so you can sleep at the shop....:D
Grant, I was planning on picking up a full size M&P9 next month, but is there anything I should hold off for?
Nope. The biggest changes have already started.
C4
Just of curiosity, I wonder how many M&P owners actually learn to shoot with the stock trigger? Seems like everyone is modding them right out of the box. I've owned 3 M&Ps (still on the 3rd) and learned to shoot it out of the box. Curiosity lead me to the S&W Performance Center "action job". Did I need it? Nah..
And yes I'm pretty proficient with my weapons. I've competed in IDPA and non-sanctioned USPSA events. I am one of the few that keeps up with the Jones'. With that said, I do need to take a few handgun training courses other than what the dept puts out.
Shot mine bone stock until just this year.
C4
Exiledviking
10-15-10, 19:49
I've had my 9mm FS since July of '06 and just got the Apex sear in it in Jan of this year. I liked the M&P a lot, but now I love it. I had wanted an M&P45 but I could not get past the poor trigger. Now thanks to Randy I have nice new 45 with a superb trigger.
Just of curiosity, I wonder how many M&P owners actually learn to shoot with the stock trigger? Seems like everyone is modding them right out of the box. I've owned 3 M&Ps (still on the 3rd) and learned to shoot it out of the box. Curiosity lead me to the S&W Performance Center "action job". Did I need it? Nah..
And yes I'm pretty proficient with my weapons. I've competed in IDPA and non-sanctioned USPSA events. I am one of the few that keeps up with the Jones'. With that said, I do need to take a few handgun training courses other than what the dept puts out.
Bowie Tactical
10-15-10, 20:09
S&W knows how to put a better trigger on the M&P but LE agencies made it clear they wanted heavy long reset triggers. The perfomance center and pro series is just doing a copy of the "S"trigger I have done since the M&P was first introduced years ago. I worked with a now moved on employee on this. The other triggers i have designed are even less wanted by LE lawers because they shorten pre and over travel. Many angencies approve officers to use my work but you must understand a company like S&W has to hit the big LE market overall to get those sales and contracts. Many smiths now copy versions of the "S" trigger including parts that somewhat replicate it. Don't look for a hand fit type trigger in a mass produced pistol or part. That is asking alot from a company who has to meet so many different price points and liability requirements. As with any pistol buy it and then get it tuned to suite your needs. Most shooters and warriors have done that over many, many generations, don't look for that to change.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts.
Just of curiosity, I wonder how many M&P owners actually learn to shoot with the stock trigger? Seems like everyone is modding them right out of the box. I've owned 3 M&Ps (still on the 3rd) and learned to shoot it out of the box. Curiosity lead me to the S&W Performance Center "action job". Did I need it? Nah..
And yes I'm pretty proficient with my weapons. I've competed in IDPA and non-sanctioned USPSA events. I am one of the few that keeps up with the Jones'. With that said, I do need to take a few handgun training courses other than what the dept puts out.
I can agree with this. The rule of thumb I've always followed is shoot at least 1k rounds through the gun before modding it. After recently getting into the M&P platform, I'm past my first 1k and may do 2k before considering the Apex kit. My trigger has really broken in nicely between the fire and dryfire (although my gun was made in 2010, so maybe it has the improved trigger). I would love to try an Apex kit, but looks like I'll get myself one for Christmas.
But I don't think anyone should be stuck with anything and are free to do whatever they want to their guns (anyone seen the pistol bayonet? exactly...), but I also think its good to get to know the platform first. If someone is buying ANOTHER M&P or ANOTHER Glock or ANOTHER 1911, I would suggest copying the original combat/carry gun with mods.
Just my $0.02. YMMV
APEX goodies are cheap compared to ammunition. IMO, one's better off to go ahead with the modified fire control, AND put in the range time.
APEX goodies are cheap compared to ammunition. IMO, one's better off to go ahead with the modified fire control, AND put in the range time.
That's the other thing I was thinking about today, we're talking 90$ for a DCAEK.
I mean I'm a college student but honestly, in the gun world... That's cheap for what it provides you, a drop in trigger job. As a 1911 owner... That's just insane.
At the end of the day the S&W M&P does not require a trigger job to be a competent and reliable pistol.
It simply needs about a grand of ammo through it or a ton of dry fire. You can accelerate this with a simple polish of a few different parts...kind of like the 10 cent trigger job on a Glock. (or whatever the heck they call it)
The majority of guys on these forums are gun guys and are always looking to push either themselves or their guns a little bit harder, faster and longer.
APEX goodies are cheap compared to ammunition. IMO, one's better off to go ahead with the modified fire control, AND put in the range time.
I don't think the rule of thumb of putting 1k through the pipe first has anything to do with money. And maybe its less of an issue with the Apex DCAEK (since it more or less cleans everything up and doesn't drastically ligthen the trigger pull), but everyone must know at least one person who prefers milspec triggers over 2 stage triggers in CQB ARs. Now imagine if everyone started putting 2 stage triggers in without anything to compare it to.
And again, YMMV, and its your gun - do as you please. I personally am excited to start playing with my fire control. But I'm also glad I held off so I have a control to compare it to. I mean if Magsz had put the Apex in before gettin a little time on the platform, he wouldn't have known the Pro's and Con's of the OEM fire control enough to want to switch back to a potentially better fit.
Again, my $0.02. Not tryin to be confrontational or a know-it-all by any means. Just trying to pass on a piece of advice I was told that has always seemed to work in my favor.
Sorry for the derail...
At the end of the day the S&W M&P does not require a trigger job to be a competent and reliable pistol.
Unless it is a Massachusetts compliant M&P........ ;)
Unless it is a Massachusetts compliant M&P........ ;)
Not going to disagree.
You need two people to fire one MA compliant M&P lol.
S&W knows how to put a better trigger on the M&P but LE agencies made it clear they wanted heavy long reset triggers. The perfomance center and pro series is just doing a copy of the "S"trigger I have done since the M&P was first introduced years ago. I worked with a now moved on employee on this. The other triggers i have designed are even less wanted by LE lawers because they shorten pre and over travel. Many angencies approve officers to use my work but you must understand a company like S&W has to hit the big LE market overall to get those sales and contracts. Many smiths now copy versions of the "S" trigger including parts that somewhat replicate it. Don't look for a hand fit type trigger in a mass produced pistol or part. That is asking alot from a company who has to meet so many different price points and liability requirements. As with any pistol buy it and then get it tuned to suite your needs. Most shooters and warriors have done that over many, many generations, don't look for that to change.
That seems to nail it. The pistol as-is fills a chunk of the market that matches it's name (the M and P from M&P), their custom shop can do trigger jobs, and aftermarket companies make parts for their line of stuff. What more could S&W want from the platform at this stage of the game, they've made a solid pistol that's also a great base for custom guns.
The DCAEK feels markedly better than the stock units I've handled at stores, and for me that seems like a trivial price for a better trigger. The stock one isn't the most horrid thing ever conceived, but the Apex stuff makes a marked improvement with more or less drop-in parts for a pretty reasonable price.
I don't think the rule of thumb of putting 1k through the pipe first has anything to do with money. And maybe its less of an issue with the Apex DCAEK (since it more or less cleans everything up and doesn't drastically ligthen the trigger pull), but everyone must know at least one person who prefers milspec triggers over 2 stage triggers in CQB ARs. Now imagine if everyone started putting 2 stage triggers in without anything to compare it to.
And again, YMMV, and its your gun - do as you please. I personally am excited to start playing with my fire control. But I'm also glad I held off so I have a control to compare it to. I mean if Magsz had put the Apex in before gettin a little time on the platform, he wouldn't have known the Pro's and Con's of the OEM fire control enough to want to switch back to a potentially better fit.
Again, my $0.02. Not tryin to be confrontational or a know-it-all by any means. Just trying to pass on a piece of advice I was told that has always seemed to work in my favor.
Sorry for the derail...
I'd already fired a bunch of M&P's before ordering mine with APEX stuff already installed. As well, I'd already been there/done that with a bunch of other pistols, and came to the same conclusion. While I agree with your point, it just doesn't take me 1,000 rds to figure out what I already know about my preferences in trigger characteristics. I'd sort of consider the 1000 rds wasted, if I launched them downrange, knowing already that I'm going to change the pistol's trigger characteristics. I'd rather spend the 1,000 rds on gaining experience with the pistol in its final configuration.
S&W knows how to put a better trigger on the M&P but LE agencies made it clear they wanted heavy long reset triggers. The perfomance center and pro series is just doing a copy of the "S"trigger I have done since the M&P was first introduced years ago. I worked with a now moved on employee on this. The other triggers i have designed are even less wanted by LE lawers because they shorten pre and over travel. Many angencies approve officers to use my work but you must understand a company like S&W has to hit the big LE market overall to get those sales and contracts. Many smiths now copy versions of the "S" trigger including parts that somewhat replicate it. Don't look for a hand fit type trigger in a mass produced pistol or part. That is asking alot from a company who has to meet so many different price points and liability requirements. As with any pistol buy it and then get it tuned to suite your needs. Most shooters and warriors have done that over many, many generations, don't look for that to change.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts.
This.
Also, for anyone looking to modify a stock trigger, I would highly reccomend BTC. I have his "S" triggers on all of my M&Ps and they are outstanding, especially in terms of reset. The M&P is a solid gun that provides a perfect platform for the shooter to tweak as needed.
G34Shooter
10-20-10, 08:42
I'd already fired a bunch of M&P's before ordering mine with APEX stuff already installed. As well, I'd already been there/done that with a bunch of other pistols, and came to the same conclusion. While I agree with your point, it just doesn't take me 1,000 rds to figure out what I already know about my preferences in trigger characteristics. I'd sort of consider the 1000 rds wasted, if I launched them downrange, knowing already that I'm going to change the pistol's trigger characteristics. I'd rather spend the 1,000 rds on gaining experience with the pistol in its final configuration.
I agree!
I'd already fired a bunch of M&P's before ordering mine with APEX stuff already installed. As well, I'd already been there/done that with a bunch of other pistols, and came to the same conclusion. While I agree with your point, it just doesn't take me 1,000 rds to figure out what I already know about my preferences in trigger characteristics. I'd sort of consider the 1000 rds wasted, if I launched them downrange, knowing already that I'm going to change the pistol's trigger characteristics. I'd rather spend the 1,000 rds on gaining experience with the pistol in its final configuration.
I can agree with that. I would probably go the same route, but this is my first "double action only" style pistol (i know its not truly DAO, but from a shooters standpoint it pretty much is). Coming off DA/SA and SAO pistols, I didn't think it would hurt.
I agree with the 1k round rule, but I also think experienced shooters shouldn't worry. I completely agree with your point. At the same time, to a new CCW or new shooter, I would still recommend the 1k rule.
Again, my $0.02. Probably a big reason I haven't pulled the trigger on an APEX kit is I have yet to get hands on time with one. For some reason, no one local seems to have caught on to APEX gear.
I got my DCAEK in the mail today. I have installed the trigger return spring, hard sear, and sear spring. I am waiting until next week to have the USB put in because my smith is putting Trijicon night sights on my pistol, I may as well let him drop those parts in while he has my rear sight off.
What I did install was not difficult at all, and I think I have the hardest part done. The only trouble I had was the sear spring plunger. I grabbed it with some tweezers and it either shot out or i dropped it. Either way, I heard it hit my keyboard. I thought it went between two of the keys and was hiding in my keyboard somewhere, so I popped every single key out of it, and my plunger was not there. After calling S&W to see if I could get a replacement (couldnt, it is a restricted part) and spending an hour crawling on the floor with my TLR-1, I found the dang thing and finished the install. Then I reassembled my keyboard.
Apex has made all my M&Ps perform 100% better.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.