View Full Version : Do you CCW a spare mag?
Is it smart to carry an extra/spare mag? Hell yes, and I'd answer the same way every time as I'm sure most would. However, often times I do not due to being lazy, weather, dress, weight and activities.
Would it be possible? More often than not it definitely would be but I live in t-shirts, shorts & flip flops and it's hot as hell so I down size to either a G19 or M&P 9mm most of the time.
What say you and your carry habits?
Robb Jensen
10-15-10, 13:30
Yes I do.
The quickest was to get a mag related stoppage fixed is another mag.
I believe that the number one cause of malfunctions/stoppages in the handgun are magazine issues. Dirt, debris, feedlips, misfeed from the mag, bad spring, etc.
I always carry at least one spare mag. More often than not I carry two, since I am a 1911 carrier, it was a habit to carry two for capacity, this translated to carrying two G17 mags for the G19.
I wear clothes conducive to carrying, not try to press carrying in to the clothes I wear. Therefore no t-shirts, no shorts without a belt, etc.
gtmtnbiker98
10-15-10, 13:37
I am guilty as charged. I do not carry an extra magazine as a routine, but during Winter months, I often times stash an extra magazine in my jacket pocket. It's a bad habit that I must endeavor to correct.
Anyone recommend a good pouch for M&P mags?
William B.
10-15-10, 13:47
I always carry at least one spare mag. More often than not I carry two, since I am a 1911 carrier, it was a habit to carry two for capacity, this translated to carrying two G17 mags for the G19.
Same here. I always carry two spares. I may eventually replace one mag with a hand-held flashlight, though.
Business_Casual
10-15-10, 13:56
I am a lazy dickhead sometimes too, but a spare is cheap insurance.
I'm interested how the spare gun guys train to make that tactically sound?
B_C
ghettomedic
10-15-10, 13:59
I carry a spare mag for my primary CCW (Glock 30) ~90% of the time. I ALWAYS carry a BUG (S&W 442) however, and a reload for that BUG about 75% of the time.
My carry hierarchy goes something like this, something similar has been posted in another thread but this is how I sees it:
- Primary CCW
- Primary CCW with spare mag
- Primary CCW with BUG
- Primary CCW with spare mag + BUG
- Primary CCW with spare mag + BUG with reload
I personally don't carry more than one spare mag ever and my BUG (S&W 442) reload is usually a speed strip. Here's why:
- If I'm using my 442, its because my primary has run dry, malfunctioned or I've experienced an incapacitating injury to my weapon side hand/arm.
- If I'm employing my BUG in a defensive context, I know that it will either be at contact distance and that my priority will be emptying the gun as fast as possible into my assailant's vital areas or that I'll be using my BUG to escape and evade, not continue to engage the threat.
- If the above scenario has happened, I'm looking to get to cover/leave the area before reloading my BUG, therefore speed is not my utmost concern when it comes to BUG reloading. The speed strips are faster than loose rounds in a pocket, to be sure, but they are a compromise when viewed vs a speedloader.
I carry a speed strip for my BUG because it's easy to carry and it's value added. More ammo = better. It's going to be a bad day if I have to draw my snub because that means I've run through 21 rounds of .45, got shot or had a primary weapon malfunction.
As far as carrying a spare mag, if you're the kind of person who carries a concealed weapon for self-defense no one should have to talk you into having a spare magazine and a handheld white light on your person.
AZ-Renegade
10-15-10, 14:06
I've been carrying my summer gun (S&W 642) almost exclusively for the past 7 months. Although I don't always I usually try to carry a 5 round reload in a quick strip.
Before the 642 I carried a KAHR K40 and I religiously went out with one spare magazine. I sold the K40 to my father to finance a compact M&P40.
Once I get the concealment holster and mag pouch in for my M&P40c I will be carrying that with a ten round magazine in the weapon and a full size spare magazine with grip adaptor.
The quickest way to keep shooting is to have another gun.
Not disbelieving you, have you put this on a timer using your carry method?
I know it's fastest when going from a carbine to an openly carried sidearm, but the whole pocket carry thing sounds slower than a mag change on a semi-auto pistol.
Know I should but almost never do
keysersoze
10-15-10, 14:13
I often go around with at least one spare mag on my person, but sometimes I go overboard especially when I'm making a point to someone who says that spare mags are too bulky, etc. I use a Comp-Tac magazine carrier for 2 mags. For my smaller pistols (LWS Seecamp 25 and Beretta Tomcat Inox) I use pocket holsters and custom kydex mag pouches.
Business_Casual
10-15-10, 14:15
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Actually, it's pretty easy. The 642 goes in my left (weakside) front pocket in a pocket holster. If the main gun (which is usually a Glock 19 these days) ceases to be capable of flinging bullets for any reason, it gets tossed or retained in the strong hand depending on circumstances, the weak hand draws the 642 and continues to fling bullets until hostilities cease.
If you mean "have I actually trained in doing this," the answer is yes - at a multiday class with Louis Awerbuck and on my own at the range.
So what do you do with the primary? Chuck it down or reholster it? I am asking out of curiosity - I'm not trying to depose you counselor.
B_C
woodandsteel
10-15-10, 14:21
In the past I haven't, because I was lazy and dumb.
Now, I carry a spare magazine in my pocket (which still isn't the best idea), until I can find a good mag holder.
I figured that I need to take likelihood and common sense into account with my daily carry gear or else I'd be carrying 2-3 knives, a primary CCW plus at least 1 reload, a backup plus at lest one reload, 2 flashlights, a can of OC, 2 cellphones, plus 2 wallets (one's a throwdown wallet in case I get mugged) and keys + a backup OC on the keyring. I realize that I'm playing the odds by not carrying a spare but the odds are against me ever having to use my primary CCW in the first place, much less run it dry or have a malfunction with it right when I need it. YMMV
BTW: I know at least one person reading this is probably guilty of carrying all of the above as a civilian. ;)
Spurholder
10-15-10, 14:37
Spare mags (in mag pouches) are cheap insurance, guys.
yep, left front pocket, always.
one G19 mag if i'm carrying a g19 of g26,
one p7 mag if i'm carrying a p7 :o
i actually train and game with it in that location, I had a brief fling with a cheapo mag carrier, and have been using my pockets ever since.
titsonritz
10-15-10, 14:41
2 glock 19s, 2 spare mags. Better to have and not need than need and not have.
Due to the added time it takes to put on my mag pouch (almost completely removing my belt in the process), I often don't carry a spare mag. I've got a Garrity Gunleather mag pouch on order that snaps on and off...if that works out there won't be any more excuse not to have a spare mag.
I carry one of these
http://alabamaholster.com/index.php?p=2_30
I ordered it as a combo with my AIWB holster. It works pretty well
Ga Shooter
10-15-10, 15:13
Most of the time I carry 2 extra G17 mags for my G26 but my "dress down" carry is at least 1 if not 2 extra G26 mags.
I always carry a spare mag...or two..depending if it is a single stack gun (P239, MK9 = 2 spare mags) or double-stack gun (P229, P226 = 1 spare mag)
All my SIGs are .40 S&W
Army Chief
10-15-10, 17:00
Usually yes. There are, however, times when I take the view that having a gun is insurance enough, and if I truly do have to go to a backup magazine, then I've pretty much reached the point of "lightning strike" odds, and probably have even bigger problems on my hands. Much of this is context/location dependent.
Still, I defer to my original answer; especially when carrying a 1911 -- which is most of the time.
AC
decodeddiesel
10-15-10, 17:15
I have been lax about not carrying an extra mag, especially in the summer months. It is purely out of complacency though.
I did however just order a leather IWB MTAC mag pouch from Comp-Tac for my M&P9C last week. I am planning to carry an extra 17 round magazine in it. I really like the MTAC holster for my M&P and I am hoping the mag pouch lives up to the same standard.
There are, however, times when I take the view that having a gun is insurance enough, and if I truly do have to go to a backup magazine, then I've pretty much reached the point of "lightning strike" odds, and probably have even bigger problems on my hands. Much of this is context/location dependent.
That's my take on carrying a spare a lot of the time. I'm either carrying my G19 or M&P and have the same capacity with one mag as I would with my 1911. However, that doesn't take into account having a magazine failure of some type.
I did however just order a leather IWB MTAC mag pouch from Comp-Tac for my M&P9C last week. I am planning to carry an extra 17 round magazine in it. I really like the MTAC holster for my M&P and I am hoping the mag pouch lives up to the same standard.
They're adjustable, like the MTAC, and are pretty slick. I have one but I can't remember where I put the frickin' thing.
I always carry 1 extra magazine.
No reason not to carry a spare mag. If I'm wearing jeans, I put two in my back left pocket. Other pants and shorts, two mags in the left front pocket.
Always....every single time. To do otherwise is STUPID.
NavyDavy55
10-15-10, 19:20
I always have two spare magazines or two speed loaders for the wheel gun.
Wow theres quite a few over-prepared people on here. I don't see any reason for carrying more than 1 spare mag.
Its funny to me thats there are people on here who think that they will one day be in a situation where they'll need their primary and 2 spare mags AND a BUG and a reload.
Now unless your a LEO, I just dont see the point for a CIV to carry that much shit. Even if you live in Compton or somewhere, youre probaby never gonna need that much
NavyDavy55
10-15-10, 19:57
Wow theres quite a few over-prepared people on here. I don't see any reason for carrying more than 1 spare mag.
Its funny to me thats there are people on here who think that they will one day be in a situation where they'll need their primary and 2 spare mags AND a BUG and a reload.
Now unless your a LEO, I just dont see the point for a CIV to carry that much shit. Even if you live in Compton or somewhere, youre probaby never gonna need that much
Statistically I'll probably never need the round I have chambered in my carry weapon let alone any of the spare rounds I carry. But I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them! I also carry OC spray, and a knife.
Always
Most malfunctions in magazine fed weapons are related to the........ magazine.
always have always will.
I'm just a civilian but I'm a firearms instructor and teach Handgun carry permit classes, I always stress this to my students and one time I had a Double feed on a live shooting demo I was doing and went right into fixing it which involved ditching that mag and reloading from my pouch.
It was just kind of value added when after I finished the drill I turned and the look of realization was dawning on their faces. so yes always have always will
D. Christopher
10-15-10, 20:43
When I first switched from a 1911 to a G19 I didn't carry an extra magazine for a while. Now I always carry the G19 with a spare G17 magazine loaded with ball ammo. (Bad experience on foot in a parking lot with a BG trying to run people down with his car.) Additional G19 mags with more Speer Gold Dots in vehicle.
Army Chief
10-15-10, 21:02
Agree in principle with most of what has been presented here, but I do think we're treading in tin foil hat territory a bit when we start talking about carrying a basic CCW load that exceeds what the average police officer is going to have on his duty belt in the same area. If you're in an environment where you truly anticipate needing that kind of firepower, then it seems to me that you had better be using it to fight your way back to a long arm of some kind.
AC
I agree with Army Chief
Just my personal opinion if you are civilian carry and carry one reload you are preparing for bad things to happen at the worst time.
If you are a civilian carrying more than one reload it would seem to me that you are looking for a fight.
And if you are a civilian and need more ammo than that, you brought a handgun to a rifle fight
Just my 0.000143245953 Euros
Always....every single time. To do otherwise is STUPID.
Well then call me stupid. I'm a LE officer even and I always carry a gun (unless I'm drinking) and I never carry a spare magazine. Why? Because if I'm pulling that gun out it's going to be quick and dirty. I'm not wearing my body armor so if whatever round count I've got (depending what gun I carry can range from 5 to 11) is what I'm using. After that I'm getting the f outta there. In fact, I'm planning to book it even before round 1 goes down range.
So I feel it's a bit over doing it to carry more mags than what's in the gun.
And lets maybe talk about when you expect you'll use your gun. I guarantee that no matter how much you train getting it out of your holster you'll NEVER beat the guy who's already got his out. My gun is for those times when I can get it out without the bad guy knowing and getting my skinny white butt out of harms way while the guys with body armor and rifles are coming my direction.
That's my .02 cents.
I carry spare mags. 2, 10 rounders and an 8 rounder in the gun of my 1911.
Magazines are the single most accident prone portion of a firearm, and I've lived enough to see it. (I'm 23 as of about 3 weeks ago.... So that should say that you don't need to use a gun a lot to see that it's a necessity...IMHO)
Whether it be weak springs not holding back the slide on the last round, an shitty follower/spring tension that would let a bullet drive too far forward into the magazine, inducing a stoppage, whether it was a crappy follower on an AR that fed a bullet/released it at the wrong time and slammed it into the top of the barrel and recessed the bullet all the way into the casing (twice, same magazine, I unloaded the weapon, went home, numbered all of my magazines and replaced all the followers with Magpul Followers). I've had bullets spin backwards and end up facing back towards the firing pin (Some Winchester Silver tips 185 gr +P's in .45 ACP, that I'm pretty sure were made at the dawn of time).
Buy quality magazines and you'll experience less malfunctions, and I do mean less, IMHO. Those all happened in Magazines that in the 1911 world are pretty highly regarded, and in the AR World, it was a GI Mil-Spec Magazine with a Green follower, that I switched out to Magpul anti-tilt followers, haven't had a problem since with the magazines, only a stuck case form Wolf ammo.
http://www.comp-tac.com/catalog.php?cPath=22
I'm not happy with my Spartan Holster from Comp-Tac (looking back I should've gotten a C-Tac), I'm switching to a new pistol (the magazine related issues with pistol have happened with that gun, I've got about 1,500 rounds through it, probably closer to 2,000... but I'm just done, anyway not turning this into a rant)
I'd say carry at least one spare magazine, and in a carrier/mag pouch on your belt.
Honestly guys, you should be practicing reloading the gun, and the only way to do that where your draw/reload is consistent is to wear the same belt, holster and mag pouches.
I don't want to fish into a pocket with car keys, pocket knives and a cell phone, for my spare magazine when I need them.
I like the external mag pouches by Comp-Tac because you can tension them.
FWIW, I toyed with the magazine tension to find the balance between a quick/light grasp to get them out, and the magazines not falling out of the pouch when I turned it upside down (in case I tripped or something like that).
I find it's a happy medium.
ETA: It's late for me, tired, and the post was incoherent in a few places.
If I am making the hassle to carry, it doesn't take much more to carry another magazine. Especially if I am only carrying my BUG which is a 7+1 P232. The truth of the matter is that sometimes you have to fight when you are not in the mood, and the badguy is holding all the cards. Sometimes, you cannot retreat either when your wife and children are nearby.
My biggest problem has been running into people that I have arrested in the past. I've pulled my weapon 3 times when I was off duty and had such a situation.
I usually do not unless driving through or spending some time in a place such as Memphis, as I sometimes do (no offense intended if you live there). There are valid arguments on both side of the issue but I usually think along the lines that if the 18 rounds in my M&P aren't enough I will have hopefully already resorted to the oldest form of self defense.........running.
always one, sometimes two.. and a carbine plus 2 reloads in the truck. sometimes more, depending. i'm a vest guy.. carharts are my favorite, i have a few. very fuddish and non-tactical (although i did get picked by a cop, once). i can do a j-frame in the front pocket, two g17 mags in the other front pocket, and a g17 on the hip, and still look "slim." i love vests.
The only malfunctions I've had with my Beretta were from bad mags. Thus, I always carry a spare mag. Even if I don't need the ammo, if the mag goes TU, I've got a spare on my belt. I used to carry two spares, but it just got too heavy and IMHO not all that necessary. I have a spare mag and a BUG with reload.
I will be using my Raven Dual Mag holder with my HK45. It's very rarely I carry without an extra mag. One never knows what one could walk into.
Robb Jensen
10-16-10, 09:24
The quickest way to keep shooting is to have another gun.
It's usually just as easy for me to carry, and much easier to conceal, a 642 in my pocket than it is to stick a magazine carrier on my belt in normal, everyday life. So I guess my answer to the poll would be "no," but I think I have a better solution.
Quickest referred to me. I don't know you nor your shooting ability.
My average clearance to get my carry gun (Glock 19, 22Gen 4, or M&P45) back running again (gun is already in my hand) due to a stoppage is about 1.5 seconds, 1-1.20 seconds for a reload. Your frame of reference may be different.
welchtactical
10-16-10, 10:33
I always carry an extra mag on my person. I don’t want to be in the fight of my life and the slide lock to the rear and know I’m out of ammo. It will usually be a mag with a + rounds extension attached. If I’ve got dry, have a malfunction, or I’m doing a tac-load my pistols not concealed anymore anyways. I usually have 2-3 more mags in the door of my car if I need to go for them. I would advocate carrying extra mags instead of a second gun as most people
A) Do a crappy job of concealing one gun as it is
B) Don’t spend enough time shooting the one gun they carry as a primary
C) Don’t shoot well enough with their primary gun to start launching projectiles in a social setting with a J-frame they have never shot.
Working in the gun business you start hearing the same thing over and over again. Person bought the smallest gun they could, a box of high speed people destroyer hollow point defensive round, and have never fired it, tested function, let alone even know where it groups and carry it out into the world. Then they want the cheapest, most comfortable holster, and never go to the range and draw from it. This isn’t only irresponsible, its just plain retarded.
Everyday, no matter where I'm going, my Wilderness belt goes on, with flashlight and CCC mag pouch on the left side. Sometimes if I'm going to a Pistol Free Zone I take off the gun and holster and throw the spare mag in the safe, but the empty mag carrier stays there next to the flashlight. I also carry a knife and an OC spray.
Why NOT carry a spare mag? There are so many reasons to do so, and the only reason not to seems to be clothing. If your clothing can't handle concealing an extra mag, why do you still own those clothes? I conceal an OWB CCC mag carrier in cargo pants and slightly baggy t-shirts. Shirts and pants/shorts that can't conceal my loadout are useless to me and got thrown out when I started carrying. I view every piece of clothing I own as part of my CC rig.
Robb Jensen
10-16-10, 10:57
As I've said, I've never put it on a timer - but running through numerous reps of both reloading and drawing the pocket gun in my head, I would have to think the difference in time is negligible.
More importantly, when you talk about "stoppage," what are you referring to? A failure to eject? Or all types of stoppages? What about a gun that breaks or truly "jams?" How do you know why it stopped when it's dark and somebody, who you need to keep your eyes on, is trying to kill you?
The last time I had a stoppage with a Glock 19 was about 10 yrs and 35K rounds ago and it was a stovepipe, I haven't yet had a stoppage with my G22 Gen 4 nor my M&P45.
I carry a spare mag and a spare gun and in my vehicles a long gun. There's a time and place for everything.
Multiple guns, multiple mags, flashlights, knives, OC spray... How big are some of your Bat Belts? On duty I can see these being essentials but in my everyday life I'm not quite that prepared.
Magic_Salad0892
10-16-10, 11:14
Yes. I carry a Glock 17 (Alternate between Gen3 and 4) and two spare magazines.
I do not carry a BUG, because I keep a strict maintenance schedule on my primary pistol, and in the event I lose said pistol it will probably be in very close quarters.
My contingency plan for that is a knife. At 3 meters or less Knife > Gun.
At that range I can close distance and puncture the sternum faster than a gun can be raised. (Been training and timing it, with an 80 lbs. punching bag that I don't mind putting holes in.)
I timed myself with the knife, then timed myself raising the G17 to shooting position then compared the two. (G17 already in hand and not in holster, as I'm assuming my assailant already will have his weapon deployed. Otherwise it would make no sense for my weapon to be lost. But, whatever.)
Multiple guns, multiple mags, flashlights, knives, OC spray... How big are some of your Bat Belts? On duty I can see these being essentials but in my everyday life I'm not quite that prepared.
Everyone draws a line between ridiculously paranoid, and practicality for likely scenarios. I have needed my weapon multiple times off duty, and I still find that my most useful tool has been my cell phone to call in reinforcements. In my estimation of "practicality" I see little need for multiple gun carry or multiple magazine carry(one spare is good) for the average citizen. Almost all robbers or lonewolf gunmen tend to flee or kill themselves when they are engaged in gun fire. As cops, we are in the business of backing people into corners so that they have the motivation to fight us to the death.
90% of the time a spare mag in a Galco Matrix single mag holster, but the rest of the belt includes a Galco Matrix holster for my HG, 6P-LED in a Galco, blackberry, keys.
Everyone draws a line between ridiculously paranoid, and practicality for likely scenarios. I have needed my weapon multiple times off duty, and I still find that my most useful tool has been my cell phone to call in reinforcements. In my estimation of "practicality" I see little need for multiple gun carry or multiple magazine carry(one spare is good) for the average citizen. Almost all robbers or lonewolf gunmen tend to flee or kill themselves when they are engaged in gun fire. As cops, we are in the business of backing people into corners so that they have the motivation to fight us to the death.
I fully understand the need for LEOs to be more prepared & paranoid than the average citizen, especially when they come into contact with their old customers.
As a regular citizen I think one of the most dangerous places for me to be is driving and the psychopaths who I share the road with. With all the assholes cutting you off, giving the 1 finger salute, brake checking, speeding up to intentionally block lane changes and screaming obscenities while I'm simply trying to get to my destination is the quickest manner possible. I do have a spare magazine in my car but I do not often carry one on my body.
welchtactical
10-16-10, 16:30
dbrowne1:
I understand your position. Having a gun is always better than not having a gun. I know people who would be the wrong person to be standing in front of when armed with a Keltec .380 if I had my Rifle. Practice is the biggest thing people don’t do. It’s knowing the tool at hand, it and your own limitations over having a bazooka. I feel a lot of people don’t understand the huge responsibility of carrying. Knowing when to shoot, not to shoot, and when to run.
I have always though of my clothes as part of my CCW gear. I always carry when I go to buy new jeans. I carry IWB so I get 34 instead of 32s just so my Crossbreed will fit. I get L-XL T-shirts to cover the Comp-Tac mag pouches I use. You can even just put an extra mag in your pocket, and have done that before, as long as you are anal about not putting anything else in that pocket. I was teaching a basic pistol class and saw a guy trying to reload his Glock from his pocket. His face got a little red when he realized he was trying to slam his Nokia into the bottom of his pistol.
I never really carried a flashlight on me, but usually had like 3 in my car. I have two in the cab and one on my rifle that’s usually in the trunk. (Which was the only one before and I had to remove it from my M4 to help a family seriously hurt in a multiple roll over accident). I have recently started carrying a TLR-1 weapon light in my pocket. In the event I need a hand held it works for that and is plenty bright. If the situation gets really jacked up I can snap it to my M&P 9mm Pro. I’m probably not going to be holstering till the rest of the Calvary shows up. I might invest in an IWB holster for the M&P and TLR-1 later. Just hope I can find one that’s comfortable. I’m a bigger dude 5’10 200lbs but seems kind of like a lot to stick it your pants. (That’s what she said! Haha!)
Carrying OC is a good idea. Another level of force escalation. Shows you were willing to use less lethal in the event that you HAVE to use deathly force. I have been sprayed and I’m telling you it fricken sucks, bad!
Bottom line, an extra mag doesn’t weight much, double the amount of fight you have on you, so why not. I’m going to be sticking a fully loading mag into my gun the second I get the chance after having to shoot at something needing shot. Something else might pop up.
Multiple guns, multiple mags, flashlights, knives, OC spray... How big are some of your Bat Belts? On duty I can see these being essentials but in my everyday life I'm not quite that prepared.
I carry a gun and two spare mags.
The only thing I'm thinking about changing since I'm changing to a different platform is maybe carrying a light in a combo pouch instead of one of the spare magazines.
O.C., knives, etc.... Honestly I wouldn't turn to for self-defense. I actually lent out my knife to a friend (a girl) who was traveling across country alone. If I had a spare gun and was confident she'd know how to use it, I'd have given her that instead.
I found out she was sleeping at rest stops and I was shocked.
I'm thinking about picking up an airweight S&W revolver for a BUG, but that's down the road.
I carry a spare mag every time I put my pants on. I admit I have even grabbed the mag and not carried the gun.
Most always carry a spare mag. I used to carry a 1911 and a spare, now its a M&P45 mid and a spare. I've had to change my clothing to carry though.
GLOCKMASTER
10-16-10, 18:22
What some people are failing to grasp is the reason for the second mag is not to supplement the ammunition count but to replace the magazine in the pistol if that magazine S'sTB on you. It's not about being paranoid it's about being prepared. How many of you ride around in your vehicle without a spare tire?
bkb0000 I like the way you think. We've had a couple of active shooters here is the last few months that have taken place inside a Target and in a Wal Mart parking lot. The Wal Mart shooter had several rifles with him and that's something that I would rather not have to face with a pistol. Since then I have found my perfect truck rifle.
So if you're worried about your magazine going down on you why don't you invest in high quality magazines that you KNOW through testing work 100% of the time?
I buy and carry stuff I know works. And I have driven cars without spares, but they had runflats which I also knew worked. (My car also didn't have room for a spare so it was a moot point).
I really do feel that a lot of people go overboard with what they carry on their belt. I have a heavy duty belt I carry around all the time, and I don't want to carry all that crap around when I'm not working. I don't carry handcuffs, a flashlight, OC, extra mags, etc when I'm not working. I really think it's over doing it all, but if you do it fine......doesn't make my pants sag any.
GLOCKMASTER
10-16-10, 18:47
So if you're worried about your magazine going down on you why don't you invest in high quality magazines that you KNOW through testing work 100% of the time?
I buy and carry stuff I know works. And I have driven cars without spares, but they had runflats which I also knew worked. (My car also didn't have room for a spare so it was a moot point).
I really do feel that a lot of people go overboard with what they carry on their belt. I have a heavy duty belt I carry around all the time, and I don't want to carry all that crap around when I'm not working. I don't carry handcuffs, a flashlight, OC, extra mags, etc when I'm not working. I really think it's over doing it all, but if you do it fine......doesn't make my pants sag any.
I do invest in the best equipment money can buy. But you never know when your equipment may decide to take a dump on you so I like being prepared. I have seen brand new factory magazines STB on people. Nothing is perfect and we do not live in a perfect world. Magazines are consumable items and you should not fall in love with your mags. I do agree with you that some people can go overboard with their carry setups but carrying a spare mag to supplement your semi auto pistol is not.
I guess if I ran run flats I may not carry a spare tire. :rolleyes:
Evidently I guess you live in a more perfect world than the rest of us do.
welchtactical
10-16-10, 19:01
I'm with JFreuler, If your pistol stops running to the point where you have to remove the mag (tap, rack, bang doesnt fix everything) would you really slam the same problematic mag back into your pistol? I have never bought an aftermarket mag for any of my pistols. Only factory. Had a brand new G19 mag that cause problems out the bag.
I have always loved that guy who has one mag for his pistol with his magic hollow points hes never fired but "takes it apart and stretches his springs every now and again." Same guy I asked how he liked his new pistol (highpoint 9mm) and he said "Its nice, shoots real good, but the clip falls out when Im shooting all the time." And this guy was getting paid to carry that piece of SH*T!:rolleyes:
GLOCKMASTER
10-16-10, 19:07
I'm with JFreuler, If your pistol stops running to the point where you have to remove the mag (tap, rack, bang doesnt fix everything) would you really slam the same problematic mag back into your pistol?
I have seen people do it time and time again and guess what, it didn't work the second time either.
I had a very good friend who had training mags and duty mags until his top dollar duty mags STB on him one day in a seven yard gunfight. Luckily for him he was well trained. You never know when a mag is gonna go.
But what the heck do I know.
there's no "better." just train to proficiency with your system- spare mags, spare guns, whatever.
welchtactical
10-16-10, 22:03
Question about the second gun over extra mag theory. What do you do with the first gun if it quits on you and you have to go to your 2nd? Drop it go to #2? What if you have to leave it there. A gun with maybe only one round fired out of it left laying or kicked away as people run by? Dont like leaving a possibly fixable weapon laying. I can live with a mag, but not a gun. I would probably even retain the bad mag to down load or if I had to, try again. Or do you reholster it, then go to number 2? Extra mag $35.00. Extra gun $500+. I wouldnt mind having a small BUG like a LCP or P3AT Keltec or my by far favorite little gun right now the Sig 238. I just cant justify carrying 2 guns on me when I have one, at least 1 extra mag (more depending), extra mags in the car, and more times than not a carbine with 5 mags in the trunk.
but in the end if you go out and train to go to a BUG, and it works for what you wear to work and social setting your in, do it.
Now Im going to have to vid and time myself clearing and reloading. Havent timed it before. I can speed reload in about 1 second. Gonna have to see what my time is clearing then reloading.
Question about the second gun over extra mag theory. What do you do with the first gun if it quits on you and you have to go to your 2nd? Drop it go to #2? What if you have to leave it there. A gun with maybe only one round fired out of it left laying or kicked away as people run by? Dont like leaving a possibly fixable weapon laying. I can live with a mag, but not a gun. I would probably even retain the bad mag to down load or if I had to, try again. Or do you reholster it, then go to number 2? Extra mag $35.00. Extra gun $500+. I wouldnt mind having a small BUG like a LCP or P3AT Keltec or my by far favorite little gun right now the Sig 238. I just cant justify carrying 2 guns on me when I have one, at least 1 extra mag (more depending), extra mags in the car, and more times than not a carbine with 5 mags in the trunk.
but in the end if you go out and train to go to a BUG, and it works for what you wear to work and social setting your in, do it.
Now Im going to have to vid and time myself clearing and reloading. Havent timed it before. I can speed reload in about 1 second. Gonna have to see what my time is clearing then reloading.
IMHO, there's more purpose to a BUG than just when your primary malfunctions.
Honestly, i've had two relatives involved in pretty severe stabbings/slashings. What if you can't get to the small of your back to that holstered weapon because you're trying to hold onto someone's hand with one hand/it's occupied and you can't get to your strong side holstered pistol?
For instance, I had a cousin stabbed many times, (he was unarmed) to the point of he's partially paralyzed in one arm because the guy tried to stab him in his chest/heart, he sacrificed his limb to save his life...
Things to consider.
Also what if you get shot, from what I've read, that limb is pretty much useless after that.
Or I can remember it was a CLEO that used to post on a forum I posted on said he liked the fact he could reach into his front pocket and put his hand on a gun if he saw something suspicious coming his way, without having to position his hand to get the proper draw stroke out of his small of the back holster.
The Truth is, I don't think anyone will ever be as prepared as they could ever be for a fight of any kind.
I think you make due with the best of your abilities, you prepare as much as possible, and pretty much hope that's enough.
That being said gandrtactical sells a S&W Model 442 for $399, that's .38 Special (which packs a wallup more than .380 Auto) and it's in a D/A revolver, internal hammer, so if you have a misfire, you just keep squeezing the trigger.
That's what I think would be optimal for a BUG, light weight, reliable as pretty much handguns get, and a good self defense cartridge.
I would not grab a knife for self-defense, I carry a knife (well used to, I need to buy another one) for the utility of a knife, if I feel I need to stab someone to defend myself, I'd be more than happy shooting them and it's much more effective.
IMHO.
So here's a question, what kind of manual of arms do you guys who carry BUGs follow under a malfunction with a primary?
Say the gun's loaded you pull the trigger, click, could be a bad primer, light primer strike, could be gunk in the firing pin channel inhibiting the firing pin, could be an empty chamber (I load and then verify, but who knows, we're pontificating), I would think you'd rack the slide, eject the bad round (assuming at first it's isolated to that) and chamber a new one.
If it does it again, do you dump the magazine? Then reseat a fresh one and chamber a new round, do you go to your BUG, or do you actually not dump the magazine but cycle it a second time to chamber another fresh round?
What say you guys?
I would probably even retain the bad mag to down load or if I had to, try again. Or do you reholster it, then go to number 2? Extra mag $35.00. Extra gun $500+.
Frankly, I'm not made out of money, College student who works part time and stuff, but I'd say worry about surviving the incident, money, property? All of that can be replaced, or even if it can't be, I'd be more concerned about making it back to loved ones, even if it was an Transferable MG that you need to drop right now to get to a sidearm to save your life, do what you need to do to survive would be the way I'd establish priority.
That's how I see it anyway, because honestly, if you don't, you won't have to worry about buying another $500 gun that you dropped/lost.
What I struggle with is at what point do you stop troubleshooting one and go to another, because like GotM4 said, reloading is quicker than drawing another gun, but at what point is troubleshooting a gun not worth the effort?
I'm curious what others think.
I'm not an expert in the slightest, as a side note, just what I think makes sense from what I've been presented over the years.
All summer long, wearing cargo shorts and a T-shirt, I carry a Glock 19 IWB, two G17 mags, a 642 in my left front pocket, and a strip of .38 ammo in my other pocket. I find my method of carry to be comfortable and not at all in my way.
To each their own as to what to carry. Statistically the average cop or citizen could get through there entire life carrying no gun at all, and if they needed one an empty gun would suffice. Even for most shootings a J frame and no reload would serve.
Statistically I shouldn't have to respond to an active shooter incident in my career, ever, and yet I have responded to two out of the three that have occurred in my fair city.
I'm also a shit magnet when off-duty, and I am in no way trying to attract attention.
I carry what makes me comfortable and would allow me to use my training if things go sideways.
BTW, no matter what, I always have a light, almost always I also have a couple of knives, but even on airplanes I have a light.
Just a few weeks ago my bride and I were out with friends at Dave and Busters, playing games with the kids, when the lights went out. D&B is a total cave with no lights being on, and some of the emergency back-up lights failed to pop on. After getting outside we noted that the entire Legends area was dark.
Having an E2e with a TNVC LED head made me the demi-God of light at that moment when everybody else was stumbling around in the dark desperately trying to see from the anemic glow from a cell phone, we walked out without issue and were able to easily find the cars in the parking garage, which was also a cave due to no lights being on at all, even emergency lighting.
RedHorseman
10-17-10, 01:13
I generally follow the principle of "one is none, two is one." Hence, I try to always carry a spare magazine with me as a part of my CCW loadout. The extra magazine is not there so much as to bolster my round count but as a secondary/backup if my primary magazine has some sort of failure.
I agree with JFreuler. A magazine is a consumable and there are various variables that can cause it to fail at the most inopportune time. I have even seen factory new magazines fail on several occasions.
For my purposes, I only carry one spare magazine. Any situation that may necessitate more than two pistol magazines, usually necessitates that I fight to my long gun, IMHO.
Anyone recommend a good pouch for M&P mags?
I currently use the Ready Tactical mag pouches for my Glock 19. They are low-profile and sit tight to the body to aid in concealment. I have used others such as the Blackhawk single mag pouch in the past, but find that the Ready Tactical conceals better than most.
I bet Ken Hammond wished he had a spare mag that day at Trolley Square...
I've seen officers fail to discover the magazine in their pistol had been inadvertently dislodged, so when they drew their pistol, the magazine fell out--another nice time to have a spare mag.
SWATcop556
10-17-10, 04:06
I bet Ken Hammond wished he had a spare mag that day at Trolley Square...
I've seen officers fail to discover the magazine in their pistol had been inadvertently dislodged, so when they drew their pistol, the magazine fell out--another nice time to have a spare mag.
Just the example I was getting ready to type. There are too many reasons to carry a spare mag that I see absolutely NO reason not to have one. Besides most people carry the latest greatest wiz-bang iPhone, crackberry cellphone that are bigger than most spare mags. It's not hard to carry one. I personally don't subscribe to the two gun concept. But if it works then go for it.
Ga Shooter
10-17-10, 06:48
Just the example I was getting ready to type. There are too many reasons to carry a spare mag that I see absolutely NO reason not to have one. Besides most people carry the latest greatest wiz-bang iPhone, crackberry cellphone that are bigger than most spare mags. It's not hard to carry one. I personally don't subscribe to the two gun concept. But if it works then go for it.
This is what I was going to say. If you carry 2-3guns, lights, oc, multiple knives then I think you must really believe you are in extreme danger all of the time. I think I would move. Nothing wrong with being prepared and if that is what makes you feel safe then by all means do what you must.
I don't carry a spare mag most of the time for one reason alone: it's very difficult to effectively conceal an OWB mag carrier without printing. I'm not going to name the reason why I'm paranoid about that, but you can probably figure it out. I do sometimes carry a spare, but it's only when I'm not so worried about printing. If I find a comfortable IWB mag carrier that I'm confident won't allow the mag to constantly shift around, I'll likely start carrying a spare on a regular basis.
At least one, most of the time two.
decodeddiesel
10-17-10, 10:26
dbrowne1:
I understand your position. Having a gun is always better than not having a gun. I know people who would be the wrong person to be standing in front of when armed with a Keltec .380 if I had my Rifle. Practice is the biggest thing people don’t do. It’s knowing the tool at hand, it and your own limitations over having a bazooka. I feel a lot of people don’t understand the huge responsibility of carrying. Knowing when to shoot, not to shoot, and when to run.
I have always though of my clothes as part of my CCW gear. I always carry when I go to buy new jeans. I carry IWB so I get 34 instead of 32s just so my Crossbreed will fit. I get L-XL T-shirts to cover the Comp-Tac mag pouches I use. You can even just put an extra mag in your pocket, and have done that before, as long as you are anal about not putting anything else in that pocket. I was teaching a basic pistol class and saw a guy trying to reload his Glock from his pocket. His face got a little red when he realized he was trying to slam his Nokia into the bottom of his pistol.
I never really carried a flashlight on me, but usually had like 3 in my car. I have two in the cab and one on my rifle that’s usually in the trunk. (Which was the only one before and I had to remove it from my M4 to help a family seriously hurt in a multiple roll over accident). I have recently started carrying a TLR-1 weapon light in my pocket. In the event I need a hand held it works for that and is plenty bright. If the situation gets really jacked up I can snap it to my M&P 9mm Pro. I’m probably not going to be holstering till the rest of the Calvary shows up. I might invest in an IWB holster for the M&P and TLR-1 later. Just hope I can find one that’s comfortable. I’m a bigger dude 5’10 200lbs but seems kind of like a lot to stick it your pants. (That’s what she said! Haha!)
Carrying OC is a good idea. Another level of force escalation. Shows you were willing to use less lethal in the event that you HAVE to use deathly force. I have been sprayed and I’m telling you it fricken sucks, bad!
Bottom line, an extra mag doesn’t weight much, double the amount of fight you have on you, so why not. I’m going to be sticking a fully loading mag into my gun the second I get the chance after having to shoot at something needing shot. Something else might pop up.
I am about the same size, 6' 210# with a 34" waist. My magic CCW combination is an M&P9C or occasionally an M&P9 FS in a Comptac MTAC work at 2:00, and I have begun using a Comptac leather mag pouch at 10:00. I can get away with wearing 36" pants and the whole system works well. An X-L T-shirt or Polo is enough to make the gun and magazine vanish.
Tango Charlie145
10-17-10, 11:16
And a small flashlight-SF Defender or Streamlight PT1AA. You always need a flashlight and I was taught the extra mag was not only for ammo but to resolve a malfunction.
If for whatever reason belt carry of an extra mag won't work, stick the extra mag in an ankle pouch, around your neck in an ID carrier, or in a pocket--it really is NOT that hard to accomplish...
Seems like a lot of folks are very well "prepared"....for what, I'm not sure.
I carry a gun as a last resort insurance kind of thing.
I don't plan on being in a gun fight....let alone one where I'll be reloading to carry on the fight.
Can you guys RUN, EVADE, HIDE, or even move QUICKLY with all that gear?
Seems like a lot of folks gearing up to get INTO a fight...rather than viewing a concealed weapon as a last resort insurance.
Just my 1/8 of a cent.
jeremy stanke
10-17-10, 15:58
if i am carrying a low capacity gun like my champion operator or p238 than i always carry a spare. if i am carrying one of my m&ps or glocks, i dont usually.
welchtactical
10-17-10, 16:45
I dont plan on being in a fight, nor do I think most people here are. But as someone else brought up, do you plan on getting a flat? Than why have a spare tire? I dont wear skinny jeans, so an extra mag in my pocket or clipped to my belt isnt really a big deal at all. 2 guns seems a little much to me unless your were a LEO and HAD to get involved in a bad situation if one popped up. I just would hate getting put into a bad situation and having to shoot at someone and run out of ammo, or my gun would stop running and be stuck there hoping their out or have to run and get shot in the back. A friend of mine had some guys tried to rob him at his house. He fired all the rounds in his Glock ran to evade, starting getting shot at and had to hide behind his car. Said all he could think was the guy was going to come around the car and shoot him in the head. He got lucky and the guys took off.
RedHorseman
10-17-10, 17:28
Seems like a lot of folks are very well "prepared"....for what, I'm not sure.
I carry a gun as a last resort insurance kind of thing.
I don't plan on being in a gun fight....let alone one where I'll be reloading to carry on the fight.
Can you guys RUN, EVADE, HIDE, or even move QUICKLY with all that gear?
Seems like a lot of folks gearing up to get INTO a fight...rather than viewing a concealed weapon as a last resort insurance.
Just my 1/8 of a cent.
We all strike a fine balance between being properly prepared and being paranoid with our CCW loadout, but I hardly find it uncommon for someone to carry an extra magazine to prepare for the most likely failure a handgun will encounter. Like previously stated, I don't carry a spare tire because I want to get a flat tire. Yet, nobody thinks that if I carry one I am being overly paranoid.
Just because I don't plan on being in a gunfight, does not mean that I should not be prepared for the possibility of one. Unfortunately we live in an increasingly violent society. Last I checked, the criminals do not take a vote to find out my opinion before they ensue with their criminal activity. If you have the forethought to carry a handgun as insurance, you should at the very least have the forethought to prepare for a common equipment failure. It all boils down to an individual's mentality. I don't plan on being in a gunfight, but if it comes down to a situation where I have to use deadly force I want to know that I did everything I could to stack the odds in my favor. That entails dealing with the possibility of the gun going down due to a bad magazine, which is all too common.
How much more weight is it to carry an extra magazine? I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you carry a "Batman utility belt" for your everyday loadout. An extra magazine is a simple precaution and requires little thought to throw onto your belt.
jklaughrey
10-17-10, 17:36
Why the hell wouldn't you is my question. Unless you have a BUG, and situation dictates no spare mag.
friendlyfireisnt
10-17-10, 17:43
If for whatever reason belt carry of an extra mag won't work, stick the extra mag in an ankle pouch, around your neck in an ID carrier, or in a pocket--it really is NOT that hard to accomplish...
Another idea is to throw it in a multipurpose tool pouch. That's how I keep my spare.
Seems like a lot of folks are very well "prepared"....for what, I'm not sure.
I carry a gun as a last resort insurance kind of thing.
I don't plan on being in a gun fight....let alone one where I'll be reloading to carry on the fight.
Can you guys RUN, EVADE, HIDE, or even move QUICKLY with all that gear?
Seems like a lot of folks gearing up to get INTO a fight...rather than viewing a concealed weapon as a last resort insurance.
Just my 1/8 of a cent.
I understand your point of view, and I personally don't carry much gear. I carry a pistol, and I carry a spare mag. When possible, I might throw in a second spare or a surefire.
A spare mag really isn't that much in the way of extra gear, and it won't really affect me getting away from a threat. But having that spare in case of a malfunction with the primary mag is cheap, lightweight piece of mind.
I doubt that I will ever be in a gunfight. My life style just isn't the kind that brings me around trouble. But my pistol is my insurance that if trouble ever finds me that I will be at least minimally prepared to deal with it. If I am ever in a gunfight, I doubt I will use all the rounds in my primary magazine, but the spare magazine is my insurance.
If on foot, I'll have two spare G17 mags on me; if I am in the truck, add a couple of "happy sticks" to the mix.
John_Wayne777
10-17-10, 21:05
I bet Ken Hammond wished he had a spare mag that day at Trolley Square...
I've seen officers fail to discover the magazine in their pistol had been inadvertently dislodged, so when they drew their pistol, the magazine fell out--another nice time to have a spare mag.
...or when assuming a grip on the gun under stress. I believe there is even dashcam video of a Trooper somewhere who was shot in the vest by the occupants of a green SUV. As he assumes his two handed grip you can just see the mag from his 3rd generation S&W pistol jettison from the gun...leaving him with a gun that doesn't go bang. Thankfully the bad guys decided to drive away.
I'm not a gunfighter or an expert in gunfighting...but in my humble opinion unless you are in the kind of profession where you storm into a compound full of bad guys to end their existence when they're busy sleeping or molesting livestock, you are probably pulling a gun and using it because you've been ambushed. A dude(s) who have probably victimized lots of other people before they targeted you have laid a trap. You're now in it. This thing will not be happening on your terms.
That's not really a situation in which we as the good guy have a lot of control. We don't decide if there will be a fight. We may or may not get to decide when the first shot gets fired. We certainly do not get to decide when the fight is over. Circumstances and the bad guy make those decisions for us.
I often hear statistics mentioned. I look at it this way:
It's statistically unlikely that you'll need to pull your gun tomorrow. If you do have to pull that gun, the gods are not smiling upon you. For whatever reason Murphy decided that he's going to piss in your eye. I don't think I would assume that things will suddenly go according to plan once I've cleared leather.
Whether you're packing a second firearm (I carry a BUG almost all the time) or you have a spare mag (I usually carry one or two in addition to the BUG), ensuring that you have a backup plan is probably a good idea. If suddenly things do start to go in your favor when you pull that gun, fantastic. I sincerely doubt that if you're standing over the leaking corpse of the jackass that just tried to end your life that you'll be busy chastising yourself for bringing too much ammo/too many guns to the fight.
Better to have it and don't need it, than...
It's my personal opinion, that even with hi-cap handguns, you should carry an spare mag all the time, what if the other mag fails, or you drop it or you run out of ammo. Remember if you carry a gun is because you never know what could go wrong and you want to be prepared for that moment, so take that into account, cheers.
Siller.
Submariner
10-17-10, 21:58
The quickest was to get a mag related stoppage fixed is another mag.
Or a second gun.:D
Or a second gun.:D
I know an army major, that for 30 years has carried a full size 1911 in the 3 o' clock position and a commander size one in the small of the back, plus 2 extra mags, and he is not even a big guy, he is quite short and thin. He is like 56 now, and retired, but he still carries both 24/7, great guy, he commands a lot of respect.
Robb Jensen
10-17-10, 22:14
Or a second gun.:D
Depends on your skill set.
You apparently haven't read the whole thread.
D. Christopher
10-17-10, 22:20
DocGKR and John_Wayne777 both bring up a very important point and another very good reason to have an extra mag with you. With all the people on this site who brag about their extended mag release (and extended slide lock) and who recommend them to others, I worry about some of these people dropping a mag (or locking the slide back) in the middle of a gunfight. A wise man once said, "An extended mag release and slide lock have no business on a self defense weapon." I believe it and live by it. YMMV. Good luck.
Submariner
10-17-10, 22:20
Depends on your skill set.
You apparently haven't read the whole thread.
Yes it does. Have you ever trained with Louis Awerbuck?
There's some great advice in this thread and it's definitely made me a think a lot more about carrying a spare magazine more often than I do, which is not very often. Thanks for everyone's input, it's definitely helped me consider different scenarios and if I'm truly as prepared as I need to be.
Since I picked up a Raven double mag carrier I've been carrying 2 spare G17 mags. With the state of Las Vegas these days, I think its a good idea, and it doesn't affect my dress or lifestyle in any way. My primary is either a G19 or G17 w/ X300 in a Raven OWB, and I carry a folder in my right front pocket, with a Streamlight PT2L light in my left pocket. With my size/build I can cover all this with an open front Dickies button down and have it go completely unnoticed.
When my Raven BUG finally comes I'll attach it to a Raven single mag carrier and start carrying my Keltec P32 as a BUG with a single G17 mag, after I've had a significant amout of practice with it.
I almost always carry at least two-three extra mags (two on the belt and another in the front left pocket). I like oodles and oodles of ammunition...
Always carry at least 1 spare mag.
That way if the mag in the gun goes down, I still have options.
Statistics will tell you how many shots are in the average gunfight. If you want, you can then add in two standard deviations to determine how many rounds you need for 95% of gunfights. I don't know the answer to the average + two standard deviations, but that is how many rounds are good to carry.
Anyone have the number of rounds fired by any given gun in at least 30 shootings?
Statistics will tell you how many shots are in the average gunfight. If you want, you can then add in two standard deviations to determine how many rounds you need for 95% of gunfights. I don't know the answer to the average + two standard deviations, but that is how many rounds are good to carry.
Anyone have the number of rounds fired by any given gun in at least 30 shootings?
i hate statistics on "average rounds fired in an average gunfight" almost as much as "legal considerations when choosing what kind of gun to carry."
if the average is 3, i'm carrying 34-51.. if the average is 5, i'm carrying 34-51.. if the average is 10, i'm carrying 34-51.
Statistics will tell you how many shots are in the average gunfight.
Has anyone here had an average gunfight?
I know I haven't.
gtmtnbiker98
10-19-10, 09:27
Statistics will tell you how many shots are in the average gunfight. If you want, you can then add in two standard deviations to determine how many rounds you need for 95% of gunfights. I don't know the answer to the average + two standard deviations, but that is how many rounds are good to carry.
Anyone have the number of rounds fired by any given gun in at least 30 shootings?
Whatever the average would be, I'm sure that my situation would be the deviation. It's just my luck.
Mr. Murphy knows where you live. Carry an extra mag.
First off- Yes I carry a spare magazine, always. To me there is no reason not to do so.
Yes I can see the BUG theory as an alternative and if that is how you want to go about it then fine, just train with it. The reference to Awerbuck and others who carry two full sized guns is valid and an excellent point. In the end it is the same theory just done differently-having something if your primary goes down for whatever reason.
A couple of other comments if I may.
There are a lot of posters in this thread who state that if something goes south on them they intend to run. Great idea, problem being is that there are situations where this is not going to be possible. Or others who are saying that they would close the distance and use a knife, again great idea if you are in a close (grappling) range fight but what if you aren't?
As an LEO I carry a gun professionally, have for 23 years now. Never in all of those years have I been 'made' as I make it my business to dress appropriately. Yes it can be done in shorts and a T-shirt without a problem, you just have to train for it. 'Printing' is simply not acceptable in my world.
Everyday I leave my house I have my pistol, a good quality knife, a flashlight, my credentials and a spare magazine for my primary. It isn't hard to do if you train for it.
I do not carry OWB unless I am in working 'soft' clothes such as 5.11's and a Polo with my badge on my belt. Just my preference but again getting 'made' off-duty or 'printing' is, in my opinion the absolute mark of an amateur or someone who just wants everyone to 'know' wink wink that they have a weapon on. Easy way to get shot in my area.
My wife is a retired LEO due to medical reasons. Every single day she has a pistol and a spare on her person. She weighs about 110lbs and has no difficulty concealing them so for those who say that they simply can not manage it they need to rethink what they are doing and why.
I will grant you this, at least carrying the pistol is more than most do so if you want to call it a day with that alone then so be it, you are only risking yourself...unless you have responsibilities such as a family that is counting on you for protection.
Again my job is different as is my thought process. To me carrying a pistol plus magazine, light and knife is a minimum as it is my responsibility. For other your world may be different and you may make different choices but please don't delude yourself that what you are doing for the sake of comfort or fashion has anything at all to do with reality.
In the end if you are going to go to the 'trouble' of carrying CCW in the first place then I agree with Doc GKR and others, not carrying a spare mag, or in it's place a BUG is simply stupid.
I always have on clean underware and a spare mag...:dance3::dance3:
Whatever the average would be, I'm sure that my situation would be the deviation. It's just my luck.
Has anyone here had an average gunfight?
I know I haven't.
i hate statistics on "average rounds fired in an average gunfight" almost as much as "legal considerations when choosing what kind of gun to carry."
if the average is 3, i'm carrying 34-51.. if the average is 5, i'm carrying 34-51.. if the average is 10, i'm carrying 34-51.
I did not suggest to carry as much ammo as in the average gunfight - I suggested to carry as much as average plus two standard deviations. If that is not enough, then carry average plus three standard deviations.
Let us say that here are 10 sample gun fights:
3 shots
1 shot
22 shots
6 shots
1 shot
30 shots
1 shot
2 shots
9 shots
2 shots
The average is: 7.7 shots
The standard deviation is 10.16
So that would mean you would carry 38 shots for 3 standard deviations.
Of course you would round up to whatever a full magazine would hold.
My shot data was made up, but it would be nice to see data for 1000 shootings.
I did not suggest to carry as much ammo as in the average gunfight - I suggested to carry as much as average plus two standard deviations. If that is not enough, then carry average plus three standard deviations.
Let us say that here are 10 sample gun fights:
3 shots
1 shot
22 shots
6 shots
1 shot
30 shots
1 shot
2 shots
9 shots
2 shots
The average is: 7.7 shots
The standard deviation is 10.16
So that would mean you would carry 38 shots for 3 standard deviations.
Of course you would round up to whatever a full magazine would hold.
My shot data was made up, but it would be nice to see data for 1000 shootings.
You realize that I only passed high school math because I was a football player, right? :D You just confused the hell out of me. I'll stick with carrying 2 spare mags.
Magic_Salad0892
10-19-10, 23:55
If it was legal and not weird I'd carry a Mk.18 Mod. 01 at all times.
It'll be a beautiful day if that ever becomes legal.
If it was legal and not weird I'd carry a Mk.18 Mod. 01 at all times.
It'll be a beautiful day if that ever becomes legal.
what makes you think it isnt?
Beat Trash
10-20-10, 01:12
I carry a spare magazine, or a spare reload if I am being really lazy and only carrying a 642 revolver. (can count on one hand how often that happens per year).
If I have a shirt untucked, it's easy. If I tuck the shirt in (using a Blade Tech UCH for the Glock 19) then the spare mag goes in the weak side front pocket.
Off duty, I don't carry more than one magazine though.
Do I plan on ever needing to reload if involved in an off duty shooting? Nope. But I also don't plan on having a flat tire, yet I carry a spare in the trunk.
I am the type to hope for the best, yet plan for the worst.
Has anyone here had an average gunfight?
I know I haven't.
hell on an average day i don't fire a shot. :o
the gun in my jeans is for a very non-average day, should one arise.
Magic_Salad0892
10-20-10, 15:01
what makes you think it isnt?
Isn't it?
I always carry 2 G17 mags to back up my in gun 15 rounder. Plus I have 2 15 rounders with +2 extensions either in the car when driving or in the nightstand when asleep. So, 50 rounds on my person plus another 34 usually nearby.
Isn't it?
nope.
heres the entire ORS section pertaining to firearms-
http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html
as to the mk18- mine goes with me everywhere... and
166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.
(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.
(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person’s immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.
(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1]
pretty explicitly protects you.
Magic_Salad0892
10-20-10, 20:59
Wow. That's really awesome.
Mind PMing me some ways to carry it concealed? Preferably with the suppressor, as when I build mine it'll be run exclusively with one.
this is as close to a prohibition the ORS has to offer, every man can interpret it for himself, but if you're gonna carry under a jacket or something, i wouldn't take my word/opinion for anything... i'd talk to a lawyer. and have him on retainer, once you start carrying.
166.250. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
(a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
(c) Possesses a firearm and:
(A) Is under 18 years of age;
(B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and
(ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
(C) Has been convicted of a felony;
(D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130;
(E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or
(F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 of a felony.
(2) This section does not prohibit:
(a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
(A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or
(B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
(b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
(3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
(4)(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
(b) If a vehicle has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
(A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and
(B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.
(5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor.
but the entire .250 section of the chapter seems to be negated by
166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
(a) Sheriffs, constables, marshals, parole and probation officers, police officers, whether active or honorably retired, or other duly appointed peace officers.
(b) Any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while said person so summoned is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
(c) The possession or transportation by any merchant of unloaded firearms as merchandise.
(d) Active or reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard or Marine Corps of the United States, or of the National Guard, when on duty.
(e) Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons described in ORS 166.250 from the United States, or from this state.
(f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
(g) A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.
(h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.
(2) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating ORS 166.250 (1)(c)(C) that the person has been granted relief from the disability under ORS 166.274.
(3) Except for persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm under ORS 166.250 (1)(c) or 166.270, ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
(a) Members of any club or organization, for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon the established target ranges, whether public or private, while such members are using any of the firearms referred to in ORS 166.250 upon such target ranges, or while going to and from such ranges.
(b) Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.
(4) The exceptions listed in subsection (1)(b) to (h) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating ORS 166.250. [Amended by 1977 c.207 §1; 1991 c.67 §36; 1993 c.735 §1; 1995 c.670 §2; 1999 c.1040 §3; 2009 c.316 §2; 2009 c.499 §4]
and yes, it says "persons licensed to carry concealed handguns," but it doesn't say "only some of the statute," it says the entire statute. and that's supported by,
166.262 Limitation on peace officer’s authority to arrest for violating ORS 166.250 or 166.370. A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating ORS 166.250 (1)(a) or (b) or 166.370 (1) if the person has in the person’s immediate possession a valid license to carry a firearm as provided in ORS 166.291 and 166.292. [1999 c.1040 §5]
when i'm thinking about carrying a rifle, i'm thinking in the context of a briefcase or in the vehicle. on your person does not seem to be prohibited, but i seriously don't think a cop discovering a suppressed mk18 under your jacket would care, especially considering cops around the Portland metro area have a long standing, well established misunderstanding of Oregon gun laws to begin with.
Please be gentle, I'm new to m4c.
I'm a 5'3" 135lbs woman that carries a Kahr PM9 with Federal hollow-points. I am restricted to concealing this (with a chambered round) in a bag as the PM9 doesn't have a safety. Quick draw is paramount in this situation since it's on close to my center mass but I digress. I have two reason why I don't carry a spare mag. 1. In Florida we are rampant (in my opinion) with attorneys ready to sue any permit holder that uses their weapon in self defense. In the carry subculture here it is understood to empty the mag if you pull it out. Showing any thought, clear judgement or skill with discharge opens up a world of hurt after the original reason for firing in the first place. I don't believe here in Florida it would be viewed well if I reloaded for round two. I fear it would create the notion I had intent. Am I alone in this perception...not amongst other ccw holders I know where I live. We basically live by the one mag with the ugliest ammo we can find, to point and completely unload in an effort to protect ourselves. 2. I live in super hot conditions for the majority of the year making it difficult to hide a pistol on my person wearing flip flops, shorts and a tank top (hence the bag) much less an additional mag allbeit a small mag.
Please be gentle, I'm new to m4c.
I'm a 5'3" 135lbs woman that carries a Kahr PM9 with Federal hollow-points. I am restricted to concealing this (with a chambered round) in a bag as the PM9 doesn't have a safety. Quick draw is paramount in this situation since it's on close to my center mass but I digress. I have two reason why I don't carry a spare mag. 1. In Florida we are rampant (in my opinion) with attorneys ready to sue any permit holder that uses their weapon in self defense. In the carry subculture here it is understood to empty the mag if you pull it out. Showing any thought, clear judgement or skill with discharge opens up a world of hurt after the original reason for firing in the first place. I don't believe here in Florida it would be viewed well if I reloaded for round two. I fear it would create the notion I had intent. Am I alone in this perception...not amongst other ccw holders I know where I live. We basically live by the one mag with the ugliest ammo we can find, to point and completely unload in an effort to protect ourselves. 2. I live in super hot conditions for the majority of the year making it difficult to hide a pistol on my person wearing flip flops, shorts and a tank top (hence the bag) much less an additional mag allbeit a small mag.
if you need a reload, and you don't have one, you die... you'd rather that than be sued?
Valid point, my goal isn't death nor is it having the family of some criminal sue me for all I'm worth becuase their slug of a family member died or was seriously injured by me. With that being said I would have much bigger problems if I can't hit my mark in 7 tries and am unable to get the hell out of Dodge; pardon my expression. I will have to experiment with carrying an addition mag to include working on reloading. Hmmm more range time, oh that's terrible - NOT! ;)
if you need a reload, and you don't have one, you die... you'd rather that than be sued?
A reload doesn't always mean that you have more than one opponent to deal with. I feel confident that with 10+1, I can deal with two threats confidently.
However, consider what would happen if you had a magazine malfunction, where you have to drop your loaded mag to get the gun running again. THIS is where I see the spare mag come into play for civilian CCW, and is the main reason why I carry a spare when I carry off duty.
A reload doesn't always mean that you have more than one opponent to deal with. I feel confident that with 10+1, I can deal with two threats confidently.
However, consider what would happen if you had a magazine malfunction, where you have to drop your loaded mag to get the gun running again. THIS is where I see the spare mag come into play for civilian CCW, and is the main reason why I carry a spare when I carry off duty.
i was generalizing- whatever the cause, whatever the need- if you need a reload, and you have not, you will die. doesn't matter if it's multiple targets, magazine malfunction, whole shit load of misses... if you're out of ammo, and somebody is still trying to kill you, your lack of ammo will be your undoing
Gentlemen, your arguments are strong and not without merit. Ironically while posting here I watching the news and two armed gun men robbed a Firestone Tire store... a spare is looking better and better to me. Now my biggest challenge is the actual action of drawing, ejecting and reloading with little "down" time.
Gentlemen, your arguments are strong and not without merit. Ironically while posting here I watching the news and two armed gun men robbed a Firestone Tire store... a spare is looking better and better to me. Now my biggest challenge is the actual action of drawing, ejecting and reloading with little "down" time.
And this is where training, practice, snap caps, and blue guns make all the difference in the world...
I'm a 5'3" 135lbs woman that carries a Kahr PM9 with Federal hollow-points. I am restricted to concealing this (with a chambered round) in a bag as the PM9 doesn't have a safety
Why can't you carry your gun on your body? It's the most secure place for it outside of a safe.
I also suggest IDPA and similar competition to put yourself under stress and see if your stuff works for you. It's what I use to test myself on my reloading. I wear my ordinary CCW rig and pistol instead of a game specific holster and I use normal concealment.
Six Feet Under
10-27-10, 22:34
I also suggest IDPA and similar competition to put yourself under stress and see if your stuff works for you. It's what I use to test myself on my reloading. I wear my ordinary CCW rig and pistol instead of a game specific holster and I use normal concealment.
I second this. IDPA and the like are not a substitute for real training, but if you don't game it up and shoot like you would in a real fight, it can kind of let you know where you stand. I shot a defensive rifle match this past Sunday, and I realized that when I get put under extreme stress my reloads go to shit. Accuracy is typically good, motor skills stay okay, but I just kinda fumble the rifle around until the mag goes in.
Thus, I will now be reloading under a timer only at the range. :p
slight topic diversion, but I'd strongly reconsider your reason for carrying off-body. There's no safer place than in a holster (that covers the trigger guard) carried on your person. You've got a gun that basically has a revolver trigger. Use appropriate care when reholstering and you'll be fine.
Hot weather difficulty concealing with womens clothes - that I understand. That's my wife's reason for purse carry....it has nothing to do with lack of a manual safety (she does use a RCS trigger guard sheath inside her purse).
Please be gentle, I'm new to m4c.
I'm a 5'3" 135lbs woman that carries a Kahr PM9 with Federal hollow-points. I am restricted to concealing this (with a chambered round) in a bag as the PM9 doesn't have a safety. Quick draw is paramount in this situation since it's on close to my center mass but I digress. I have two reason why I don't carry a spare mag. 1. In Florida we are rampant (in my opinion) with attorneys ready to sue any permit holder that uses their weapon in self defense. In the carry subculture here it is understood to empty the mag if you pull it out. Showing any thought, clear judgement or skill with discharge opens up a world of hurt after the original reason for firing in the first place. I don't believe here in Florida it would be viewed well if I reloaded for round two. I fear it would create the notion I had intent. Am I alone in this perception...not amongst other ccw holders I know where I live. We basically live by the one mag with the ugliest ammo we can find, to point and completely unload in an effort to protect ourselves. 2. I live in super hot conditions for the majority of the year making it difficult to hide a pistol on my person wearing flip flops, shorts and a tank top (hence the bag) much less an additional mag allbeit a small mag.
Alaskapopo
10-27-10, 23:15
Is it smart to carry an extra/spare mag? Hell yes, and I'd answer the same way every time as I'm sure most would. However, often times I do not due to being lazy, weather, dress, weight and activities.
Would it be possible? More often than not it definitely would be but I live in t-shirts, shorts & flip flops and it's hot as hell so I down size to either a G19 or M&P 9mm most of the time.
What say you and your carry habits?
I always carry at least 1 spare magazine. The reason being even if you have a high cap gun you might have a magazine malfunction. I believe in muphys law. I carry a a single stack off duty and on duty. Off duty I carry it in a Milt Sparks Versa Max II inside the waste band holster. On the other side I use a blade tech magazine/surefire flashlight holder. So off duty I always have a spare magazine, a flash light, a cell phone and my key chain is a ASP pepper spray dispensor. Never leave home with out it. In warmer weather I sometimes switch to my bug a Glock 26 in the same type of hoslter Versa Max II and the same type of magazne flash light holder. Also to all CCW holders don't fall into the trap that we in law enforcement have. Don't worry more about getting sued than you are about winning the gun fight. A lot of officers have been killed for not using enough force soon enough because they were worried about liability.
Pat
At least one spare for me......
I carry two in my weak side pocket. I am trying to find a suitable OWB dual mag pouch.......
Gentlemen, your arguments are strong and not without merit. Ironically while posting here I watching the news and two armed gun men robbed a Firestone Tire store... a spare is looking better and better to me. Now my biggest challenge is the actual action of drawing, ejecting and reloading with little "down" time.
Pick up Magpul Dynamics Art of the Dynamic Handgun DVD set. There's a female student in the class who appears to be your size concealing a Glock 19 for the class. Either way, while the legal aspects should be in the back of your mind, your life is the most important thing. You're a smaller female, if some thug attacks you, he's definitely not getting the sympathy vote from the jury, if it even goes to trial. You should have a spare mag, try to find a way to carry on your person, take a class if you can, and practice. I don't know how close you are to rob_s, a member here, but he does regular clinics at the range he belongs to. Hit him up and see if he can help you.
Please be gentle, I'm new to m4c.
I'm a 5'3" 135lbs woman that carries a Kahr PM9 with Federal hollow-points. I am restricted to concealing this (with a chambered round) in a bag as the PM9 doesn't have a safety. Quick draw is paramount in this situation since it's on close to my center mass but I digress. I have two reason why I don't carry a spare mag. 1. In Florida we are rampant (in my opinion) with attorneys ready to sue any permit holder that uses their weapon in self defense. In the carry subculture here it is understood to empty the mag if you pull it out. Showing any thought, clear judgement or skill with discharge opens up a world of hurt after the original reason for firing in the first place. I don't believe here in Florida it would be viewed well if I reloaded for round two. I fear it would create the notion I had intent. Am I alone in this perception...not amongst other ccw holders I know where I live. We basically live by the one mag with the ugliest ammo we can find, to point and completely unload in an effort to protect ourselves.
I can't remember one time on the local news where I've seen someone get sued for self defense. If the Sheriff's/Police/FHP office says it is a good shoot, you have nothing to worry about. In Orlando, we also have the best firearm attorney in Florida, Jon H. Gutmacher.
2. I live in super hot conditions for the majority of the year making it difficult to hide a pistol on my person wearing flip flops, shorts and a tank top (hence the bag) much less an additional mag allbeit a small mag.
This is where the loose fitting, unbuttoned shirts come into play over tank tops(t-shirts in my case). Just remember that if you slide into a booth at a restaurant, you just flashed your gun to everybody..:p
ETA: For the record, I tote an Hk P30, spare mag, knife and two flashlights. But I have cargo shorts for all that stuff.
2. I live in super hot conditions for the majority of the year making it difficult to hide a pistol on my person wearing flip flops, shorts and a tank top (hence the bag) much less an additional mag allbeit a small mag.
Also, see my earlier post. Vegas is hot as hell for half the year, and I conceal a Glock 17 w/ x200 and 2 spare mags year round. Of course, I'm a big guy, but my point is, where there's a will there's a way. How much is your life worth? When you decide to carry a gun for protection, you're going to have to modify your dress some.
Let me see if I can address most of the comments and questions posed to me.
- Practice is paramount and I don’t believe there is such a thing as too much. This is of course something I need to do more of.
- I do carry on my body when my attire permits.
- Carrying off body is simply a choice that many women make opting for a purse concealment. I alternate based on the situation at hand.
- I concede that the potential for a malfunction is inherent and plausible but at what point do we go from prepared to paranoia. One spare, two spare, the “what if” can completely distort the rational and create irrational.
- Rob_s, hmmm I’ll have to chat with him and if he’s close I’m game for training.
- Local news reporting civil actions against self defense. I will have to concede to this also since I am in no position to use a case in point example.
- I will keep Mr. Gutmacher’s name handy.
- Loose fitting shirts, cargo pants all great gear for a man’s fashion. I’m not on the runways in France or a slave to the latest trends but I do like to look like a lady from time to time in blouses and slacks. Not all women’s attire lends itself so easily concealment thus opting to carry off body in a bag. I have spent significant time attempting to find a carry apparatus from belly and bra holsters to in pants, in pockets, purses, fanny packs, jackets and vests. Bottom line boys is it’s a challenge to conceal pistols for women much less carry flashlights and extra mags.
All that being said, I will consider addition mags pending I can find a suitable way to carry it.
Beat Trash
10-28-10, 12:54
Gentlemen, your arguments are strong and not without merit. Ironically while posting here I watching the news and two armed gun men robbed a Firestone Tire store... a spare is looking better and better to me. Now my biggest challenge is the actual action of drawing, ejecting and reloading with little "down" time.
In a perfect would you would want to reload while behind cover.
I use a Kahr PM9 as a pocket gun. But I'm a 6' 190 lb male. When you do carry in the purse, I'd find a place for the spare magazine to go, so you won't have to hunt for it under stress. Be able to grab it by feel without looking into the purse.
Off body carry is not ideal. A purse snatching and you have issues. But as you stated, at times it may be your best option. As men, it's easy to not take into account the extra challenges presented by women carrying concealed. Body size, shape, clothing design and fashion all add a different spin to CCW.
You made reference to the perception that emptying the magazine is preferred in your state by CCW holders. I would argue that this could lead to more liability issues than reloading. Follow along for a second.
First off, you will be held accountable for every round you fire.
With that thought in mind, individual "A", armed with a 7 shot Kahr PM9, empties their gun during an incident. They could be looked upon as reckless if they state to a jury that "I always empty the magazine if I have to shoot". Verses individual "B", armed with the same 7 shot gun, who shoots their gun dry, reloads and is forced to fire a few additional rounds, but stated they fired until the suspect(s) stopped their aggressive actions.
Articulation is important. What is said can not be un-said. You would want legal counsel with you during questioning. "What I meant to say was..." doesn't work.
Many valid reasons have been stated for carrying a spare magazine in case of a malfunction. With a low capacity gun such as your PM9, I'd also carry at least one spare just in case the suspect has a friend.
I would not worry about liability issues in court just because you carried a spare magazine. Two magazines combined is equal to or less than the number of rounds in one magazine in the gun of most LEO's in your area.
On TV the good guys get involved in a shooting and someone may or may not interview them for a couple of minutes. Then our hero grabs their gun and moves on to the next scene. In real life, someone gets involved in a shooting, and it may be hours before they are done with homicide investigators and get to go home. The gun is now evidence. Don't expect to see it back for weeks to months, depending on the outcome of a Grand Jury or a full blown trial. This applies to LEO's as well, at least for my agency.
Get some qualified training. Go out and practice what you learn during your training class. Stay safe...
Ok, now I’m new to the website not new to ccw world or the processes that surround the deployment of a weapon after a confrontation. I realize I’d be interviewed / interrogated extensively, my weapon would be evidence and the that this won’t go away in 30 minutes. In fact the nightmare of using your firearm would have just begun because now your information (for civilians) becomes public record; so while I may have stopped one idiot for the moment they may have friends or family that may want to take matters into their own hands. You raised a valid point regarding the number of rounds in my two verses someone else’s one, it still doesn’t change the action of reloading or how that would appear and as we all know perception is reality to most. Reckless or not is a matter of how your legal counsel represents you. Here the classes tell people to empty their gun because it shows you were in fear of your life and continued to shoot in an effort to stop the attack. I’m not endorsing such statements or condoning them I’m simply stating what I have heard first hand. Now this segways into dozens of scenarios which I care not to get into since that topic would be endless.
Simply put, solid reasons to carry a spare mag have been made and I will consider that option should the circumstances allow. At this juncture all I can do is make sure however many rounds are deployed count!
jklaughrey
10-28-10, 13:58
You carry 2 condoms in Thailand? Why not a spare magazine or two!
Blue8282, many valid arguments have been made for carrying an extra magazine. I always carry one, even with high capacity guns. I would just like to add the following two things for your consideration.
1. I suspect your 7 rounds of 9mm may go pretty fast in a confrontation (maybe about 1-3 seconds, depending).
2. I am familiar with a few local, real-life cases (and aware of others nationally) in which 7 rounds of 9mm hollowpoint did not stop the threat. So even if you "hit the mark" with all 7 it may be a moot point in the short-term. Also, exiting Dodge may not be possible, or tactically sound, depending on your circumstances.
Good luck with your decision.
Thank you for your good luck wishes, all things considered it is a fine line between prepared and paranoia. The consideration of "if" to often or too heavily can do more harm than good.
I will consider carrying a spare "if" the circumstances allow. ;-)
Alaskapopo
10-29-10, 16:02
Thank you for your good luck wishes, all things considered it is a fine line between prepared and paranoia. The consideration of "if" to often or too heavily can do more harm than good.
I will consider carrying a spare "if" the circumstances allow. ;-)
The circumstances should always allow. I am sure you can figure out a good way to carry a spare magazine all the time.
Pat
I apologize if I offend it is not my intent, but I am AMAZED at some of the answers I have read.
First off…understand this…YOU WILL MOST LIKLEY (editted) be sued if you use a firearm in defense of yourself or others. It is the world we live in. You can sue Mcy D’s because YOU, spilled hot coffee on yourself. That being said if I lived everyday of my life worrying about being sued I would never leave my home…Oh wait…a burglar can break into my home and sue me for defending myself. Guess my only option is to move to an island of only me. A spare magazine is just being prepared, not being paranoid. You carry a spare tire, in case of a flat, not because your paranoid about having your tires slashed. Barring operator error, magazine malfunction is the NUMBER 1 reason a gun malfunctions.
To answer another posters response. You fire until the threat has stopped, not until you run your gun empty. If you fire 2 rounds and your threat surrenders or has turned to run and you continue to fire into his/ her back. YOU WILL BE SUED and loose. You choose to carry a gun and protect yourself, I am a cop and I can tell you that I cannot be everywhere at every moment. That being said you should choose to be SKILLED in its use and CLEAR and THINKING when you use it. It sounds like you have been POORLY informed and need to find a new trainer. RANT OVER
I wonder what percentage of defensive shootings results in a lawsuit? You seem to be saying nearly all, but I bet it is under 30%.
I wonder what percentage of defensive shootings results in a lawsuit? You seem to be saying nearly all, but I bet it is under 30%.
I meant it more as MEANTALLY accept that you will be sued to get past the hang up of carrying, but I am willing to wager money that it is more that 30%.
What hangup do you think people have to carrying?
I don't know why people don't carry but it seems to me the same reason why people don't wear a helmet when driving or carry a fire extinguisher on their belt - hassle seems more than the perceived benefit.
I carry (even this moment, as I am sitting at home), but I like guns - so I don't mind the hassle so much.
What hangup do you think people have to carrying?
I don't know why people don't carry but it seems to me the same reason why people don't wear a helmet when driving or carry a fire extinguisher on their belt - hassle seems more than the perceived benefit.
I carry (even this moment, as I am sitting at home), but I like guns - so I don't mind the hassle so much.
What does this have to do with my post? Im glad you carry. I think ever law abiding citizen should. I was refering to the poster who believed that carrying a spare magazine was inviting a lawsuit. If that person is not carrying a spare solely based off of not wanting to be sued.
I cannot find a poster who said carrying a spare magazine would invite a lawsuit.
I cannot find a poster who said carrying a spare magazine would invite a lawsuit.
re-read. blue8282 stated she didn't want to carry a spare because she'd get sued.
Sorry, my search did not pick that up.
She seems to feel that you have to unload an entire mag so quickly to look as if it was an automatic reaction to fear for your safety, and anything that looks like conscious thought and deliberate action to kill will result in a lawsuit.
What she is not considering is that conscious thought and deliberate action to save your life is ok.
One wants to use the affirmative defense "Yes, I shot them on purpose! Of course I did. I had to stop them - in order to save my life. I reloaded and shot again because they kept on coming at me - all 12 of them."
OK I have painted a very poor picture of my intelligence to you all and for that I apologize!
I'm by no means a damsel in distress, ignorant to law, ignorant to potential attack scenarios, untrained and unable to think clearly under stress, duress or adrenaline. I am more than capable!
I made a person choice not to carry a spare deal with it.
If it's my time to check out then it's going to happen if I have an entire arsenal or one mag! I'm in no rush to meet my maker let's get that straight but as I said when it's my time it's my time.
I realize all of you are driving this point into the ground to help me understand your point of view. I get it, I should carry a spare. Right now I don't. Now once the fembot bra comes out at Victoria's Secret I'll be locked and loaded better everyone! :-) (Austin Powers reference)
While I respect everyone's opinion I must make this final statement...
The argument to carry a spare has been raised, made and duly noted!
I am not suggesting you carry a spare as there is a very real negative to carrying one - weight.
I just pulled my mag out and it was 265 grams (9.35 oz). I carry a lot of stuff - cell phone, keys. I don't even like the weight and bulk of my wallet.
Right now I have 15 rounds in the pistol, but no spare mag. I am (at least) as well armed as someone with a S&W Airweight with two extra cylinders.
I would however suggest that having a second mag on your person will not increase the chances of getting sued, as that is mostly up to the lawyer to decide if you have enough assets to be worth the risk (expense) to sue.
And you seemed more concerned about using a spare mag than simply possessing it. If that is the case, you don't have to decide to use it. If you need it though, you will know you need it.
Bule8282: mam:
I do not believe it was anyone’s intention to say that you are a “damsel in distress, ignorant to law, ignorant to potential attack scenarios, untrained and unable to think clearly under stress, duress or adrenaline”. I KNOW it was not mine. I simply wanted to express to you that I did not find that it would offer anymore “ammunition” (pun intended) for a lawyer to sue over. In this litigious world anyone can be sued for anything. Please don’t live your life based on the “what ifs”. I understand that as a man I can pull off a t-shirt and jeans easier than you. But as you said you carry a purse most of the time. Stick a spare magazine in it and at least you have it. It is not that much more weight when you factor in all of the stuff you probably carry, using my wife as a reference, in there already. Not the most ideal solution, but then at least you would have it on you. I again apologize if it seems that we are picking on you. I do not post often, that is because I generally just sit back and learn, but I felt that I could contribute to this post. I hope this does not scare you away from this forum as it is a wealth of knowledgeable people.
PS sometimes it is difficult to convey voice inflection through text
I am pretty against carrying a handgun in a bag because someone may grab it and it is hard to draw quickly. On the other hand, it is better than not having a gun.
I was just in DC and saw some female Secret Service agents carrying in concealable belt holsters. They had their shirts tucked in with no attempt to hide the pistols but they could have just had their shirt over the pistol if they wanted. I guess it depends on how much you prioritize a certain fashion over being able to carry on your body.
But professionals like them are able to dress well and carry a pistol on their body.
sweatpants
10-30-10, 13:56
I'm guilty of not carrying one, but I wonder often if it's really necessary ... I'll carry an extra one today and see how I feel about it :confused:
jonconsiglio
10-30-10, 15:18
I always carry at least one. When I carried 1911's regularly, I always carried 2. Now that I carry an M&P, I carried 1 for a while, now 2.
Look guys, you can always find a decent argument for most things. In this situation, I can think of 5 self defense shootings where someone ran dry, whether it a revolver or Glock 19. This is a big motivator for me to carry at least one, not to mention failures where a spare mag comes in very handy as well.
I wear jeans or pants and a t-shirt or button down untucked most days. It's very hot and humid here in South Texas so thin clothes help. My point is the extra stuff doesn't show any more really and I carry full size guns. I've heard a few say they won't carry spare mags due to printing.
One other thing the mags do, which is an added plus in my opinion, is balance the weight a little more. I wear a good gun belt and though I carry a light gun now (full size M&P9) it still helps with the distribution of weight.
I can't think of any GOOD reason not to carry at least one extra mag, especially if you carry a single stack.
Jonathan
jonconsiglio
10-30-10, 15:35
First off…understand this…YOU WILL be sued if you use a firearm in defense of yourself or others. It is the world we live in.....
This is absolutely untrue. Please state your background and how you came to this conclusion. You're passing this off as fact. You should state "I'm scared that using a gun in defense of myself or others will get me sued". You're trying to pass opinion off as fact, very bad, especially if there's anyone new to firearms reading this.
Now, as long as the shoot was clean, certain states protect us with the Castle Doctrine and "Stand Your Ground".
Now, some do have lawsuits filed, but there's a huge difference between that and being sued. Most go nowhere. Some do and again, as long as it was a clean shoot, most end well. Then you can counter-sue.
My Father was a long time District Attorney in Los Angeles county. He and I have had this conversation many times and eventhough some people are sued, it's a small percentage. This was more common in the 80's and possibly the 90's than it is now.
Depending on where one lives, they may be completely protected from criminal and CIVIL liabilities. Many states protect their residents. Mine does and I can think of a dozen others that do as well.
It does not matter where you shoot someone or how many times, all that matters is it's ruled self defense by the detectives, DA or Grand Jury depending on your state.
I personally know a number of people that have shot others in self defense, and I have been in one shooting and one very near shooting myself. Not one has ended in a lawsuit.
Some in Texas, a couple in Pennsylvaia, a few in California and one in Boston, Mass. The shooting of mine was in Pittsburgh and the near shooting was a few weeks ago here in Texas. Not one person I know has been sued, nor have I, and took off a chunk of the guys face.
If one truly believes that, put a gun friendly attorney on retainer, which is very easy to do and is good for many things, or sell your guns and focus on home security rather than physical defense. Someone always scared of being sued....I'd have to question their ability to shoot if it comes to that.
No offense intended by my post. I'm sure in certain areas that may be true, but in many it's not. Having said that, I still believe we should all be prepared to deal with this in the aftermath. Have an attorney on retainer (I do for many reasons) and no what to say. I don't advise complete silence when the police arrive, but the very basics then wait for your attorney. It is a reality that it may come to a lawsuit depending on your state. For those less fortunate, prepare for that possibility. Castle Doctrine protects you in your home and vehicle, not on the street. Some states protect you there as well.
Again, depending on your state, it may be up tp the detectives, DA or Grand Jury (very unlikely that it'll ride on a patrol officer). Once it's cleared there, most times you'll be free from criminal and CIVIL liability.
Having said that, I think too many of us forget that planning for the aftermath is an essential part of this. Many just assume they'll be ok and won't need a lawyer or have to explain themselves to anyone but law enforcement. I think it would do us all some good to learn how to handle the aftermath, when to talk and when to shut up.
I know things come out wrong very easily online when there's no way to show your attitude behind it. I'm not trying to insult or argue, just stating what I know from my experience on the legal side of things.
Jonathan
This is why I generally refrain from posting. Technically sir you are correct my next post I clarified that I meant it more as a point to just accept and get past. Not allowing it to keep you from carrying in protection of yourself or others. Also in my life it almost always results in a lawsuit, either fought and won or fought and lost. I am a cop and the department is always going to be sued, due to the deeper pockets than a single person. I cannot think of a single shooting that did not result in the suit being filed. Hell…the poster before you started arguing with me. He then changed his mind and started regurgitating the same things I had just said. I am just going to sit back and enjoy the knowledge that this forum offers and if I feel I can contribute I will just PM. Also just because you are cleared criminal, DOES NOT mean you cannot be sued civilly. Actually you can be tried 3 times for the same incident in this great nation.
Just for my knowledge, could you please explain this to me? I always thought that the 5th Ammendment protects against double jeopardy. In criminal justice class, the prof. said that you can be tried for each individual offense, if there is more than one, involved in a single incident, but he was pretty clear that it is un-constitutional to be tried more than once for a single offense. Do you mean to say that if someone was sued for defending themselves, and they were not convicted, they could be tried again in a lower court?
You cannot be charged with the same crime twice.
A lawsuit is not being charged with a crime.
I just evaluated why I don't carry spare mags most of the time.
The main reason is that I stopped using my normal external belt and shoulder holsters and only carry with inside-pants holsters.
And then magazine carriers - which are outside the pants, print too much and make no sense to combine with inside pants holsters.
So I will try pocket carry of a spare Glock mag for a while - which is especially doable with a Glock mag since it won't scratch the other things in my pocket like a metal mag.
I also just removed my Glock +2 extensions as I could not reconcile in my mind what spring was best for them. It makes no sense that the normal spring would be best. And I cannot find any official word if the G17 springs were best in a G19 mag with a +2. And I won't generally use aftermarket springs anymore... And they are not IDPA legal, and they likely print a little more.
1st off I said TRIED. You can be charged twice criminally and once civilly. First the state charges you, when/ if your found not guilty, then the feds charge you with violation of someone’s civil rights (that’s 2). Then of course you can be sued (that’s 3). Also I said same INCIDENT, not same criminal charge. It all boils down to interpretation of the law.
PS they make IWB magazine pouches.
So this is one benefit to plastic mags - easier to pocket carry without chewing things up.
Army Chief
10-30-10, 17:52
I just evaluated why I don't carry spare mags most of the time.
The main reason is that I stopped using my normal external belt and shoulder holsters and only carry with inside-pants holsters.
And then magazine carriers - which are outside the pants, print too much and make no sense to combine with inside pants holsters.
I definitely follow the logic, though I do think this is somewhat dependent upon the platform chosen and the circumstances of carry.
A conventional double-column magazine is admittedly less likely to be mistaken for a something innocous like a cell phone, Leatherman or utility knife, but single-column 1911 magazines tend not to arouse the same suspicion, even when riding in a conventional belt-threaded external carrier. I regularly carry a spare magazine in this manner, even though the pistol itself rides in an Isotope 7 IWB from from Secret City Weaponeers.
AC
jonconsiglio
10-30-10, 17:56
I tried the IWB mag pouches and I liked them quite a bit for my 1911 mags. Now, I carry outside the waistband mostly due to a thicker gun and mags. I carry under a t-shirt quite often and never get a second look. If I was in LA, I'd most likely continue wearing button downs and carrying my 1911 and mags IWB.
Sigfan,
I wasn't trying to argue as I know many times that's where it ends up. I think often it's state dependent. Here in Texas, when we're cleared of a shooting, we're also protected from any criminal or civil liability and cannot be sued. Of course, not all states are the same.
As for the police being sued, that's similar to two friends having an accident and one suing the other's insurance company. It's a suit against a larger organization that will probably settle, sometimes even considering this in their budget.
So, I can easily see one suing law enforcement for a shooting, even if they were completely wrong.
I was just trying to clear up that not all places are as harsh and as the years go by, it seems we're seeing a change in the way self defense is viewed. It wasn't long ago that in a defensive shooting, we still had to prove our innocence while we were initially presumed guilty, even if no charges were filed. As it is now, here at least , if it's a defensive shooting, we're viewed as innocent UNLESS there's something that leads them to believe otherwise. This has changed in the past few years with the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground. So now, we no longer are guaranteed that a grand jury will look over the case and decide if charges should be filed as long as it's ruled a defensive shoot. Before, it was a sure bet it was going to the grand jury. Which, in turn, keeps us free from liability and completely out of criminal and civil courts.
Of course, some states do not offer this protection. But the thing is here and many other states, a clean shoot is a clean shoot, whether with a Kahr PM9 with no spare mags while in a suit, or dressed in all camo with a chest rig and using your AR.
Again, my Father was a long time DA that decided if one should be tried or not and he's told me numerous instances where the police arrested someone after a defensive shoot, then his office let them go after ruling it clean. Now, it doesn't even go that far nearly as often. Remember, this is in Los Angeles. He has said it's getting more rare that one is held financially liable in small percentage that actually end up in civil court.
Law enforcement getting sued is a WHOLE different story.
It wasn't long ago that in a defensive shooting, we still had to prove our innocence while we were initially presumed guilty, even if no charges were filed. As it is now, here at least , if it's a defensive shooting, we're viewed as innocent UNLESS there's something that leads them to believe otherwise.
Sure, at home. But if someone attacks you in a parking lot or after a road-rage incident, and you shoot them - it is a lot less obvious as to the circumstances.
Folks: like I said, it really is NOT that hard to carry a spare mag--if you can't wear a real mag pouch, put it in a multi-tool pouch, stick it in a pocket, wear it in an ankle carrier. There is really no excuse...
I always carry an extra mag. I was visiting my folks out of state and for some reason decided to look at the +1 mag in my G27 it looked a little funny. I took the mag out and the rounds were rattling around inside. I think I loaded 12 rounds into an 11 round mag. I took it apart and squared it away. I was carrying a 15 round G22 mag in a horizontal Safariland belt holder and was a little stressed out I was not going to have a serviceable mag for my gun. I now carry a spare +1 G27 mag in my off pocket in a Galco pocket mad holder and the G22 mag is in the center console/armrest of my truck. It was a shitty feeling to think I was not going to have the proper mag for my gun. There is no way the 15 round mag would have worked for me in the pocket carry mode I use.
jonconsiglio
10-30-10, 18:46
Sure, at home. But if someone attacks you in a parking lot or after a road-rage incident, and you shoot them - it is a lot less obvious as to the circumstances.
Right, that could very well fall under the "UNLESS" that I mentioned.
Stand your Ground helps with this as well. Also, if they try to open your car door or reach in, that's covered by the Castle Doctrine as well.
Obviously, not every situation is cut and dry, but it's getting better and there are now laws that help protect us. It's our job to understand them and use our weapons only in defense.
All I'm trying to say is that it's much better than it was and we are much more protected than we were 20 years ago.
As for people not wanting to carry spare mag, which I believe led to legal discussions, I can't see any valid reason not too. I have Dr. friend that wears scrubs a majority of the day. He carries a Rohrbaugh IWB and and two spare mags on his ankle. It's better than not carrying them and very discreet.
Right, that could very well fall under the "UNLESS" that I mentioned.
Stand your Ground helps with this as well. Also, if they try to open your car door or reach in, that's covered by the Castle Doctrine as well.
Obviously, not every situation is cut and dry, but it's getting better and there are now laws that help protect us. It's our job to understand them and use our weapons only in defense.
All I'm trying to say is that it's much better than it was and we are much more protected than we were 20 years ago.
As for people not wanting to carry spare mag, which I believe led to legal discussions, I can't see any valid reason not too.
Castle Doctrine is not shared by all states. The point is though protect yourself and others. Deal with the other problems as they come. Good insurance never hurts either (I.E. Good training, good gear, and a good frame of mind). I would agree that there is no reason not to carry a spare magazine or ammo strip (revolver). I would also agree that we are in a much better place, as far as carrying and firearms in general, than we have been as of late.
Bule8282: mam:
I do not believe it was anyone’s intention to say that you are a “damsel in distress, ignorant to law, ignorant to potential attack scenarios, untrained and unable to think clearly under stress, duress or adrenaline”. I KNOW it was not mine. I simply wanted to express to you that I did not find that it would offer anymore “ammunition” (pun intended) for a lawyer to sue over. In this litigious world anyone can be sued for anything. Please don’t live your life based on the “what ifs”. I understand that as a man I can pull off a t-shirt and jeans easier than you. But as you said you carry a purse most of the time. Stick a spare magazine in it and at least you have it. It is not that much more weight when you factor in all of the stuff you probably carry, using my wife as a reference, in there already. Not the most ideal solution, but then at least you would have it on you. I again apologize if it seems that we are picking on you. I do not post often, that is because I generally just sit back and learn, but I felt that I could contribute to this post. I hope this does not scare you away from this forum as it is a wealth of knowledgeable people.
PS sometimes it is difficult to convey voice inflection through text
I was just getting a little bombarded with the same message by everyone which can be taxing having to repeat myself or defend my point of view so vehemently.
I haven't been scared away from the forum, quite the contrary. There is a wealth of information here. I've enjoyed the posts about The Judge, and I was just reading about the FN 5.7.
Great job to the moderators and forum staff for keeping the site free (relatively free) from garbage information!
You cannot be charged with the same crime twice.
A lawsuit is not being charged with a crime.
Unless you wear a badge. The Rodney King incident comes immediately to mind. They were not charged with the same crime but for the same actions. They were found guilty of civil rights violations.
Unless you wear a badge. The Rodney King incident comes immediately to mind. They were not charged with the same crime but for the same actions. They were found guilty of civil rights violations.
Usmcvet is correct. You generally see it occur with cops, but it does not mean it cannot happen to a regular person.
Maybe I've missed the logic train on the reason not carrying spare mags? But the general idea of CCW is that you don't need a handgun until you need a handgun...
Maybe since I'm an 8rd 230gr JHP guy but 2 spare mags seems like cheap insurance and helps balance out the ride anyway.
I like what I think is an NYPD rule and just good common sense. You always carry at least one reload and a flash light. When we began issuing weapon lights we changed our policy to require our officers to carry a flashlight on their duty belt. We issue our cops a 6P or G2 and a stinger flashlight they choose which to carry. I've always liked the 6P and a rechargable in hand or in my pocket when I know I will need it. Kind of like grabbing a long gun when you know you're going to need a gun.
So I will try pocket carry of a spare Glock mag for a while
Before you commit to that concept, head out to the range and practice reloading from any position other than standing up ramrod straight facing the target in the open and tell me how smooth and comfortable you felt with your performance.
gtmtnbiker98
11-01-10, 12:24
Before you commit to that concept, head out to the range and practice reloading from any position other than standing up ramrod straight facing the target in the open and tell me how smooth and comfortable you felt with your performance.Agreed. Magazines "should" come from magazine a magazine pouch, if for anything, consistency.
I will try to always carry a spare mag to go with whatever gun I'm carrying. How the spare mag is carried will depend on how the gun itself is carried.
I don't follow the logic of IWB gun must equal IWB magazine. The gun extends down past the beltline much further than the magazine does, thereby making it more difficult to conceal at the muzzle end.
I tried IWB magazine with the 1911 and it was a no go for me. Wouldn't even consider it with a Glock.
Always. The majority of problems with pistols can be solved with a fresh magazine.
I wear mine OWB slightly behind my left hip. It conceals great and even if it did print, looks like a phone, multi tool, etc.
Always. The majority of problems with pistols can be solved with a fresh magazine.
+1
I carry a spare mag for my Kahr PM9 in a DeSantis Mag-Packer Magazine Pocket Holster in my off-hand front pocket.
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