Newby good distance AR

[nynco]

Ok I am not a total newby. I have a few years behind an M16 when I was in the military. I also have been researching a lot.

I am looking for opinions as to which is a good option for me for an AR.

I see a lot of 16 inch barrels a few 18s and not so many 20s. I don't care about getting a 14in barrel it makes no sense for my needs. I plan on doing 3 gun competition some day in the future. I currently have 600 meter ranges I can practice on for distance shooting. I like to use iron sights out to 600 meters. It makes me really work to get better.

I am looking for an AR that can do both well. I know its 2 different things. I just don't want to buy a match grade 20 inch A2 clone. I want a rifle that has a decent picitany rail system. But one that is not so fat that it feels like the wrong end of a baseball bat with covers on. It also must be full free floating so using a sling will not pull the barrel.

I prefer to have a piston system. I really have my heart set on one. But if that is not the best path then so be it. I just hated how dirty the DI system was on my M16. The idea of shitting where you eat just always made no sense to me. I have heard both good and bad about them.

Now, I would be willing build my own. All the way from the level of parts to complete uppers. I am not afraid to build anything and have a talent for figuring out anything mechanical. But to me it seems like its more expensive sometimes to build than it is to buy complete. I do know in the future, I will be adding a lot of the mag pull accessories. So if I can get those stock it saves me in the long run.

I also seem to think the KAC BUIS seems to be the best for distance shooting. Mainly because I want one that flips but still has elevation adjustment. I just wish it had a dual hole setup. Does anyone know if it is a 1/4 turn MOA or 1/2? Or is there a better one out there?

Now, can a 16 inch barrel work for the distance that i want to shoot out to? I know a 20 will great. Is there to much velocity and spin lost due to its shorter length? Will the bullet start to fly funny after 500 yards. I was thinking a 1/8 twist barrel. OR is it better to go 1/9 or 1/7? I want to go stainless rather than chrome. Color does not matter.

Now I am not made of money, but I know money buys better things. So if the const benefit comes out that I should spend more, then I wait and save more to get the right thing the first time.

I do like the KAC SR15. But I wish it was a piston and I am not sure if a 16 in barrel will be to short. I know everyone praises it for being light weight too. Which who does not like lighter. I know the KAC comes hooked up out of the box.

I like the LWRC M6A2 or M6A3. I can get those in 18 in. I have not heard many people talk bad about them. But most of those people are not shooting out to 600 meters. Its a piston system so that is appealing.

I like LMT but I can only find ones in 16in

I like POF USA I guess because it looks so bad ass. Things I worry about with that are the fatness of the front hand guard. The shortness of the hand guard not providing a good length for iron sight shooting. Also not sure if the height of the top picatany rail is going to cause issues with scopes should I put one on. But damn it sure is great looking and I can get it in a 18 in too.

Now I know all are high dollar. Which I hope someone can direct me to a lower dollar one so I can afford more ammo. :D

I was also looking at this... which seems like a great deal if I was wanting to build my own.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-18-Rifle-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-18%20ss410%20vtrx13.htm
But I am not sure of the quality for what I am hoping to do. Compromises, its a DI upper. I also worry that once I add all the other parts to it. I might be into the price range of the KAC SR15. Which begs the question - should I have just bought a finished rifle in the first place?

So I know it is long. But I wanted to fully explain what I am looking for and why.

Thanks all.

[120mm]

You will have a lot better luck getting affordable accuracy if you just forget about Piston.

DI is more than good enough for what you describe.

Forgetting what you think you learned in the military about the AR system would be a good start. Do some more reading here, and you will be able to do a better job of figuring out what will suit you.

[Failure2Stop]

You're kinda bouncing all over the place here.

I highly recommend that you use the search function, as everything you are asking about has been covered many times in great detail, and at this point they are kind of tired, so you are not going to get the quality of response from the quality of people that participated in the previous 25 discussions on pistons.

Anyway, here are my opinons on the topics you requested info on:

600m and iron sights:
Works fine if you have a clearly defined target. Don't expect to see that very often. Magnified optics help you see better, ID a target batter, adjust for wind and drop, see your splash, and provide the ability to focus on the target and reticle at the same time. 600 meters on a KD range with a loop sling and flags every 100 meters with 3 days worth of data is easy compared to what you are going to have to hit and the condiditons under which you will have to hit it in any other setting. Forget KD range skills pertaining to sling and weather, you need a different skill set to be competative.

600m and barrel length:
Steel and cardboard targets will score the same whether you shoot them with a bullet traveling 1500 fps or 1200 fps. People can be a bit different, but the only advantage that a longer barrel brings is velocity, and since you will have to have a distinct hold-off at 600, a few more inches isn't really that big of a deal. Are you trying to build a 3-gun rifle or a fighting rifle that you can also use for 3-gun? There is a distinct difference in approach. Anyway, 16" barrels, and 14.5" barrels to a lesser extent, can be very competative in multi-gun matches, but are not the dominant barrel length. Likewise, 18 inch barrels, and 20 inch barrels to a much lesser extent, can be decent GP rifles, but are much better in the match setting.

Don't want an A2-
1913 (Picatinny) Rails can be put onto any upper, some just require more work than others. There are also other options that do not have rails, or have smaller moveable rail segments, that handle better and faster and are less expensive than similar quality full rail handguards. The biggest limiting feature of the A2 is the fixed carry handle/sights. Everything else is easily changed. Free-floating HGs are a good idea, but not so much about sling tension, as sling use in 3-gun is extremely limited. The biggest reason is supported positions and the lateral pressure that they induce on the HG.

Piston Systems:
Lots of hype and hope and very little substance. Don't buy into the "eats where it shits" bullshit. A DI AR with decent lube will run for thousands of rounds without cleaning. Pistons in ARs is like sticking a rocket bootster in a submarine. It isn't designed for it, doesn't need it, and causes a whole other set of issues. If you want a piston gun, buy a piston gun that was built from the ground up to be a piston gun.

Building your own:
I highly recommend against building your own on a first AR. Buying an upper/BCG/CH and pushing the pins onto a complete lower is not the same thing as builiding a gun: it's assembly. Furniture swaps are fairly easy as long as you don't strip your grip threads. Many dealers have offeres with lowers and uppers already furinished, so lok around and get it out of the box the way you want it. As far as cost savings go, those cost savings only really apply if you already have the tools and skill. Believe me or don't, but the guns that have the most problems are the ones jammed together in some dude's kitchen by amateurs. If you haven't built several dependable guns you are an amateur.

KAC BUIS-
It's ok, but nothing worth taking the other options off the table either until you clearly define your needs. Since it is a BUIS (back-up) I would opt for ruggedness and close to mid-range application. For that, I prefer the Troy if going with a folder, or the LMT, DD, or Larue if going with a fixed rear.

Other long range discussion:
If you want to shoot long distances the biggest factors (well above barrel length) will be ammuniton, twist rate, and barrel quality. You will need to be shooting 68 grain or heavier bullets (68 to 77 if you want it to work from a magazine), and therefore will need a 1/8 or faster twist. There are great barrels available from Noveske, BCM, Larue (and others I am not thinking of right now), that will launcg these with aplomb at long range.
When it comes to the shooter being able to deliver that bullet to target, optics and trigger will help a whole lot.

Cost:
Expect to spend no less than $1000 before optics. If you try to do it yourself, double the cost.

KAC SR15-
I would take it over any piston AR any day of the week. They are an exceptional refinement of the AR system. Shoot a decent middie (not even counting an SR15) next to any piston and you will feel how much smoother the middie DI works. The SR15 is even better. Like I said before, DI ARs run for thousands of rounds without cleaning. The military's ridiculous cleaning regimen is what is responsible for most of the perceived problems with the DI AR. Every dollar spent on the KAC is an improvement.

BCM-
Great fighting guns, and the SS are apparently very good, and all are highly cost efficieny.

[Iraqgunz]

nynco,

A few things. Barrel length does not equate accuracy. A 14.5" can be every bit as good as an 18". What barrel length will impact is Mv which will affect your terminal ballistics at some point.

1/9 barrels are a waste of money. You are better off with a 1/7 or good 1/8.

You should seriously consider a good Colt 6920, Daniel Defense M4 or even a good Noveske.

[nynco]

Thanks for the replies and insight. I will forget about the piston thing. I guess what I was trying to get at is how much accuracy loss will I have with a 16 vs 18 vs 20 barrel at 600 meters?

[justin_247]

I'm still debating this one myself.

For 3-gun, I would go with a rig built around an Noveske 16" Recon or 18" SPR barrel, a BCM 16" or 18" SS410 barrel, or a Centurion 16" Recce or 18" SPR barrel. I think anything over those lengths is going to slow you down on CQB stages.

Definitely a Geissele trigger.

At least a VLTOR A5 or Magpul UBR stock. Since you're putting a pretty heavy emphasis on distance, you should consider the Magpul PRS, as well.

I'm going to go out and start shooting with my 16" DD XV carbine with a BCE BattleComp, Trijicon TR24, VLTOR Modstock, and DD Omega rail and see what works for me first. Maybe you should do the same.

[danpass]

sounds like an 18" SPR clone is the closest thing you're looking for

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Mark_12_Mod_X_Special_Purpose_Rifle

[Mitch]

Like IG said, barrel accuracy isn't related to barrel length. Muzzle velocity is related to length, which translates to the amount of energy the projectile is released from the barrel with. Less energy = less "range". Think of accuracy in terms of barrel quality. I get the impression you understand this so I'm a little confused as to why you are coming back to the accuracy thing.

Do you only plan to use it for competition only? A quality 3-gun rifle will perform at or above your capabilities at 600m.

[Iraqgunz]

I am consistently able to hit targets at 300 yds with my SBR using and ACOG. I am sure the other members here can do the same.

I also posted some info here about an SF team member punching out turd burglars at 600 and 800M with a 14.5" M4 using Mk 262 MOD 1 ammo.

I am pretty much convinced that good accurate shot placement with good ammo will provide good results.

[JSantoro]

Here's the subforum you're most likely to find a lot of the answers you're looking for: https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=172

Other wise, yeah, ping the Search feature.

During my time in the Corps, the 65pt KD qual course of fire was being used. Never scored below a 54, with 40+ rating an Expert badge. What that means, I now know, is that I was/am a basically competent shot; nothing special.

With that, and a 14.5" Noveske LoPro VIS upper with a 4x32 ACOG RCO mounted, I've printed sub-7" groups @ 700m. For funsies, and nobody was more startled than I was at the good results. I know plenty of folks that could smoke that with my rifle, much less with a gun with those ranges in mind. Point being, barrel length, as stated by the other gents, is only one aspect among many that determine accuracy.

POF? Don't run away because the rails are chunky as hell, run away because they don't perform nearly well enough to justify the money spent on them. Besides, piston guns of any make don't really net you any viable benefit for your desired application.

[nynco]

Thanks a lot guys. I am learning a lot. So I appreciate the effort you all are putting into the responses. One of the things I need to work on is being more specific in my use of words. I am not use to speaking with people who are more versed in the specific differences in wording. Translated, I may be lazy in my wording, using general terms. Mitch you are right I do understand the difference and need to make more of an effort to use those specifics when talking about technical items. I guess I was interchanging "accuracy" with or blending that with "range". Which in my head the two are linked. But I do understand that you can have a very accurate weapon with limited range. (example a top rate novieskie in a 10 in barrel) I guess what I was trying to ask was how do I get both? I am worried that with a shorter barrel that the bullet will start to fly funny when it loses energy. Either dropping too much or having wind effect it more due to loss of energy.

I understand that quality makes all the difference in the world. Which is why I would rather go with a stainless barrel as apposed to a chrome lined barrel. My understanding is I will have a far more accurate weapon with a more consistent shot if I spend the extra money and go for a stainless barrel.

One other concern that I have is I am hoping to also enter into CMP comps. I know this does place me into having a rifle that is more visually similar to the service issue items. But I am not sure how much leeway I would have with that? I just don't have the money to buy several weapons at this point and I am hoping to get a well rounded one to do as much as I can.

I realize I may be asking for too much. But I figured someone (actually most people here) would know more than I.

The SPR looks like exactly how I hope to either build mine or buy. I do like the round hand guard has the ability to take 1913 rails. But is not completely rail all the way down. I just don't like the feeling of a 1913 rail in my hands. But its not a deal breaker either way.

[Iraqgunz]

Unfortunately the issue as I see it is you want to have a full course meal by hitting the drive thru.

I have no idea what CMP requirements are, but the bottom line is you may actually have to get different uppers for different purposes.

The beauty of the AR system is you can do that by pushing two pins. I think you really need to sit down and think about what you want and what you can spend. You may have to buy a complete weapon now and then wait to buy another upper to fit your other needs later.

I generally tell people that unless you have information that the world is ending tomorrow or a zombie hord is outside of town just wait and get what you want. Don't settle for crap or make a rush judgement.

However first thing is first. If you can't define exactly what you want first then you'll just be chasing your tail.


Thanks a lot guys. I am learning a lot. So I appreciate the effort you all are putting into the responses. One of the things I need to work on is being more specific in my use of words. I am not use to speaking with people who are more versed in the specific differences in wording. Translated, I may be lazy in my wording, using general terms. Mitch you are right I do understand the difference and need to make more of an effort to use those specifics when talking about technical items. I guess I was interchanging "accuracy" with or blending that with "range". Which in my head the two are linked. But I do understand that you can have a very accurate weapon with limited range. (example a top rate novieskie in a 10 in barrel) I guess what I was trying to ask was how do I get both? I am worried that with a shorter barrel that the bullet will start to fly funny when it loses energy. Either dropping too much or having wind effect it more due to loss of energy.

I understand that quality makes all the difference in the world. Which is why I would rather go with a stainless barrel as apposed to a chrome lined barrel. My understanding is I will have a far more accurate weapon with a more consistent shot if I spend the extra money and go for a stainless barrel.

One other concern that I have is I am hoping to also enter into CMP comps. I know this does place me into having a rifle that is more visually similar to the service issue items. But I am not sure how much leeway I would have with that? I just don't have the money to buy several weapons at this point and I am hoping to get a well rounded one to do as much as I can.

I realize I may be asking for too much. But I figured someone (actually most people here) would know more than I.

The SPR looks like exactly how I hope to either build mine or buy. I do like the round hand guard has the ability to take 1913 rails. But is not completely rail all the way down. I just don't like the feeling of a 1913 rail in my hands. But its not a deal breaker either way.

[nynco]

I have not done a real CMP match. I have done a loose one based on the same format here at a local gun club in Colorado. It was pretty fun and I did pretty good for having no recent practice in the last 6 years. I basically walked up with my friend who was a member of the club. Borrowed an A2 from the club jumped in and did pretty well. I guess my old Army training from a few years back was still ingrained well.

Here is a rule for the M4/M16 from CMP

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/M16.htm

I guess that wetted my appetite and made me think I could get into 3 gun too. I know the rules for 3 gun are pretty open.

[crusader377]

Like several of the other posters, I would stay away from the piston guns because they are really not offering any advantages over a DI rifle for the desired role. For your situation, I would go to BCM's website and check out one of the three following options:

18" SPR
20" M16A4 clone
or the
16" recce uppers

I think any of those three would be a good place to start.

[QuadBomb]

Forgetting what you think you learned in the military about the AR system would be a good start. Do some more reading here, and you will be able to do a better job of figuring out what will suit you.

What he said.

The mis-information that passes as gospel in the military concerning the M16/M4 breaks the heart. I can't tell you how many M16s I saw whose actions sounded and felt like a rusty nail scraping on concrete, because every Marine in my battery had been told since boot camp that the weapon runs better when dry. Your rifle does NOT need to be clean enough to use as a plate for prime rib in order for it to work. There are lots of things which can make an AR stop functioning, but carbon isn't one of them.

I've been down the piston road before just like you, because of my experience in the military. Pistons have their uses, but they aren't the cure for reliability problems which really don't exist in the first place.

[nynco]

Ok I figured I am going to go the route of a custom build. I think I am going to have Rainer Arms build it for me.

I am going to go with a 20 in WOA stainless barrel

with a Vlotr JPHG 1M - RIFLE LENGTH hand guard

A Rainer billet upper

Mega Arms billet lower

Timney Single Stage Match 4 lbs Trigger

A2 rear stock

Still figuring out what to do for a bolt group. WOA also has a matched bolt option too. Any recommendations?

Not sure if anyone has any opinions of these parts?

One thing I was wondering. Since the WOA barrel is chambered in Wylde - is this able to shoot standard 223 and 5.56 well or do I have to run hot Wylde rounds through it always?

[JSantoro]

From this thread in AR Technical: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55149&highlight=chamber


There have been at least a couple chamberings that are meant to bridge the gap between 223 and 556. You get to shoot 556 in a Wydle chamber with better accuracy than a 556 chamber. I believe the Noveske chambering is very similar. To me the Wylde and Noveske chamberings offer the best of both worlds because of the ability to shoot either round while maintaining 223 accuracy. 556 is fine for a combat gun but not ideal for a precision rig.

Results of clicking on Search, using the word "wylde" and limiting the search to the AR/M4 subforums: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php?searchid=2398926