View Full Version : DPMS/Panther Arms Feedback
I would be interested to hear other members' feedback regarding the pros and cons of the DPMS AP4(A) carbine. Specifically, its quality of manufacture, reliability, and ruggedness in the field. My agency is considering making it our isue patrol rifle.
Thanks!
gtmtnbiker98
10-17-10, 10:34
More cons than pros. Do a search for "The Chart."
I have had a good bit of experience with DPMS. First as an owner of their products then as a distributor of their product.
I don't recommend them to anyone due to the issues I had with my personal guns and the guns I sold.
On my personal guns I had 2 with bad chambers from the factory.
You can see the results of that here.
http://homepage.mac.com/kwelz/.Pictures/badbullet.jpg
This photo is from the 1st one. The second was a bit worse and caused major failures.
I also had one with cracked FSB. Not sure how this happened since this part should be pretty much bombproof.
Sure DPMS was great about fixing these But the issues never should have made it past QC.
As a Distributor I had a number of them come back and have issues. Stocks would routinely break in shipping, despite the fact they were packed in foam lined cases and in shipping boxes. One had a missing front sight, the base was there but no post. There were a number of others but you get the point..
In addition to all of this they cut a lot of corners. While the chart is often sneered at by people who don't know better. But it shows clearly where the corners have been cut and what the deficiencies of the rifle is.
DPMS is a company owned by good, well intentioned men. However they do not make weapons. They make rifles to play with at the range.
You are not going to get a lot of positive feedback about DPMS here. I have one of their 1st Generation cast lowers and it is far from spec, it is currently doing duty as a dedicated .22LR.
All that said, Paul Howe uses the DPMS rifles as his class guns and even uses one as his "beater rifle" and they seem to do the job for him.
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/info-letters/10/CSATUpdate_May10.pdf
Keep in mind what it is you want the rifle for and know that the DPMS is going to be about as basic a rifle as you are going to find. If you can afford a better quality rifle then I would go for it but if all you can afford is a DPMS and you are willing to accept some of their faults you will probably be well served with it.
Don't be like my roommate and buy one "for a rainy day" and then never shoot it and expect it to run flawless if that "day comes." I wouldn't do that with a top shelf rifle, much less a 2nd or 3rd tier gun.
I'm far from one of "SMEs" to listen to on this forum, but given Paul's "endorsement" I would say that the DPMS rifle is probably not as bad as many here make them out to be.
Run for cover!! lol
You're not going to hear anything good around here about DPMS.
I have a DPMS lower on my AR and its fine, wouldnt use an Upper or BCG from them though.
.
DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, Marlin, and one or two others are owned by Cerbeus - a gigantic holding company. I doubt they are a bunch of "good ol' boys".
If I was making recommendations to an agency, I'd definitely use the FACTS on the Chart with the Charts Explantions as support for going with a better gun.
For not a lot more money (if more money at all) you can recommend an upper tier weapon built with quality components that will give reliable service.
Heck, for all I know, you might be recommending a gun to one of my local LE agencies and I'd much rather one of the local LE guys show up with a quality gun to protect me than one that "looks" like it might do the job.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I have owned 2 DPMS; one lightweight carbine and one heavy barreled rifle.
Both required gunsmithing new out of the box in order to function at all.
DPMS makes toys. They do not make weapons.
BCM, Daniel Defense, Spike's Tactical all make much, much better weapons at a similar or only slightly higher price.
I appreciate the responses to date. The patrol carbines my agency purchases will be deployed in both urban and rural environments, and will be frequently exposed to the elements. I am not going to jeopardise officer/public safety to save a few hundred dollars - so it looks like we'll be leaning towards the more established manufacturers who are not skimping on build quality.
Thanks again for the input.
Sapper22 -
FWIW, S&W offers better quality carbines in the same price range as DPMS seems to occupy.
gtmtnbiker98
10-17-10, 12:05
I appreciate the responses to date. The patrol carbines my agency purchases will be deployed in both urban and rural environments, and will be frequently exposed to the elements. I am not going to jeopardise officer/public safety to save a few hundred dollars - so it looks like we'll be leaning towards the more established manufacturers who are not skimping on build quality.
Thanks again for the input.In that case, buy Colt.
I don't know if you found it but here's a link to the M4 CHART (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html).
People that get their panties in a knot about the Chart (because they probably have a gun from the right side of the Chart),or they just don't realize that The Chart is not an opinion-it is a list of FACTS.
The Chart is two-fold: #1 An explanation of why certain components are in a "mil-spec" rifle. #2 Which brands incorporate those components in their guns.
After reading the Explanations and their links, it is hard to argue.
Opinions come into play when someone states, "I don't think a chrome-lined barrel is that important." or "Who needs a shot-peened bolt."
.
CaptainDooley
10-17-10, 12:59
I would agree that you should run, not walk from DPMS as an agency recommendation. I think it would be extremely hard to beat Bravo Company or Daniel Defense for features vs cost in a rifle that is well built and will stand up to actual duty use. Both offer complete rifles in a variety of configurations.
Beat Trash
10-17-10, 15:51
Sapper22 -
FWIW, S&W offers better quality carbines in the same price range as DPMS seems to occupy.
Depending on the amount of guns your agency is purchasing, the S&W will be real close to the DPMS for Departmental pricing. The quality between the two is huge.
I'd have someone from your agency contact S&W and request they ship out a T&E gun. Besides, it's always fun to shoot and abuse someone else's gun.
Look around here and you'll find a number of posts on specific guns and groups of DPMS rifles. Also read the AARs from training events members have posted.
Sum: Light duty sport/rec/hobby gun. Keep expectations low to minimize disappointment. Unsuitable as a life support tool.
I know a number of agencies using DPMS guns. Rarely is anyone but the bean counter satisfied with the purchase.
You might want to take a look at the Spikes Tactical LE carbine. It has most of the quality parts that we expect, and it sells for less than $800.
Bizzarolibe
10-18-10, 10:23
You might want to take a look at the Spikes Tactical LE carbine. It has most of the quality parts that we expect, and it sells for less than $800.
Correction: it has ALL of the quality parts we expect. The LE line of carbines/middy's from Spikes Tactical is the best bang for your buck and proves that you don't have to skimp on quality to get a good deal.
BCM is also fantastic, and offers quite a few attractive configurations.
Lol. That almost sounds like a marketing line direct from the company.
I believe there is stillsome question on their barrels. Regardless, they are still a better option than the DPMS in the OP.
Bizzarolibe
10-18-10, 10:58
Lol. That almost sounds like a marketing line direct from the company.
I believe there is stillsome question on their barrels. Regardless, they are still a better option than the DPMS in the OP.
No, actually there isn't. There is no longer any "question on their barrels" since a particular posting of particular documents on a particular website. They are chrome-lined, HPT/MPI inspected, MIL-B-11595E steel.
And yes, I'm from Spikes Tactical. In fact, I'm the OWNER! That's why I also recommended BCM :p
No, actually there isn't. There is no longer any "question on their barrels" since a particular posting of particular documents on a particular website. They are chrome-lined, HPT/MPI inspected, MIL-B-11595E steel.
And yes, I'm from Spikes Tactical. In fact, I'm the OWNER! That's why I also recommended BCM :p
Haha. Just give me a moment to go grab a crowbar and try to get this shoe out of my mouth.
I was not aware of the document being posted showing the barrel specs. My apologize on that.
I was also not aware you are the owner of Spikes. That would however explain the marketing sounding Post. :agree:
Bizzarolibe
10-18-10, 11:45
Haha. Just give me a moment to go grab a crowbar and try to get this shoe out of my mouth.
I was not aware of the document being posted showing the barrel specs. My apologize on that.
I was also not aware you are the owner of Spikes. That would however explain the marketing sounding Post. :agree:
Yep, I guess I need to be a little more subtle next time :laugh:
"Spikes Tactical: we put the "fun awesome tactical awesomeness" in AR15!"
syclone170
10-18-10, 12:00
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
No, actually there isn't. There is no longer any "question on their barrels" since a particular posting of particular documents on a particular website. They are chrome-lined, HPT/MPI inspected, MIL-B-11595E steel.
And yes, I'm from Spikes Tactical. In fact, I'm the OWNER! That's why I also recommended BCM :p
If that is truly the case and you are not just having fun with us please read
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1497
Specifically posting rules #5
NCPatrolAR
10-18-10, 12:21
And yes, I'm from Spikes Tactical. In fact, I'm the OWNER! That's why I also recommended BCM :p
this needs to be in the signature block of all of your posts
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
I think Rob S. has a really good post on qualified vs. unqualified opinions that would be directly relevant to this post.
An explanation of why certain components are in a "mil-spec" rifle.
a small nit to pick, but I generally have moved away from the term "milspec" with regards to the Chart and Explanation of Features. It just muddies the water.
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
Spoken like a true ignoramus Syclone...
Worst advice I've seen on this thread. The type of advice that gets people injured or killed. DPMS is not a Defensive weapon, it is:
A crap shoot, fud, lame duck, piece of dung, barely acceptable as a range rifle, shit, poop, turd-city, underbuilt, overhyped, non-functional out of the box sometimes, costs more when you actually upgrade it with acceptable components to turn it into a workable rifle, etc...
Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt, LMT; choose the one that best fits the bill and don't look back.
Use this site for research, lots of good info here by guys in the know.
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
Just seems a bit exaggerated...
I don't know if you found it but here's a link to the M4 CHART (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html).
People that get their panties in a knot about the Chart (because they probably have a gun from the right side of the Chart),or they just don't realize that The Chart is not an opinion-it is a list of FACTS.
The Chart is two-fold: #1 An explanation of why certain components are in a "mil-spec" rifle. #2 Which brands incorporate those components in their guns.
After reading the Explanations and their links, it is hard to argue.
Opinions come into play when someone states, "I don't think a chrome-lined barrel is that important." or "Who needs a shot-peened bolt."
.
I agree. I bought a BM before I knew about "The Chart" but when I finaly read it I did not dismiss it one bit. I said "A poop! I dun screwed up" and moved on to making the rifle work.
There is no need to get all huffy over it. Did my rifle work from the first pull of the trigger? Yes. Have I not had a single malfunction until I started to F with it? Yes. But just because it worked, does/did not mean it will contonue to work or can't work better.
So I upgrated the parts to make it as good as it can be. I tried to polish a turd. And you know what? It may smell, but it runs. Went through a carbine class w/o a problem, though it was pretty low volume compared to some of the others.
Either way, for the money you will spend upgrading the DPMS(s) to meet standards, might as well buy a Cold, BCM, DD or LMT... as others have said. I am sure BCM would not have a problem filling the order for your agency and the other's already deal in large volume sales [I think] Pick any one of the 4 and you are good to go.
syclone,
DPMS is garbage no matter how you look at it. You have posted this type of sillyness before and attempted to justify the purchase of inferior AR's.
You even went so far as to imply that your BM and DPMS are as good as AK's in combat.
Please do not continue down that path here.
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
And yes, I'm from Spikes Tactical. In fact, I'm the OWNER! That's why I also recommended BCM :p
Your IP address comes up as being from Lynchburg Comcast Cable and your sign-up email is liberty.edu.
Hint #1: M4c isn't like BARFCOM. We check IP addresses to verify statements and locations for members making over the top statements to keep the forum as good as possible.
Hint #2: Your history.
Your IP address comes up as being from Lynchburg Comcast Cable and your sign-up email is liberty.edu.
Hint #1: M4c isn't like BARFCOM. He check IP addresses to verify statement and locations for members making over the top statements to keep the forum as good as possible.
Hint #2: Your history.
God I hate trolls.
GermanSynergy
10-18-10, 17:03
Get the DPMS and don't worry about it. I have 3 and they work just fine, thousands and thousands of rounds through each....
How many high round count carbine classes under your belt with said carbines?
Again, thanks for the responses to my original question. It seems that we might be best served by looking at Colt. So here are a couple of follow-up questions:
1. Apart from the cost, is there any valid reason to not go with Colt?
2. Is the additional cost of the LE6940 worth it compared to the LE 6920?
I'd appreciate your thoughts...
gtmtnbiker98
10-19-10, 09:19
Again, thanks for the responses to my original question. It seems that we might be best served by looking at Colt. So here are a couple of follow-up questions:
1. Apart from the cost, is there any valid reason to not go with Colt?
2. Is the additional cost of the LE6940 worth it compared to the LE 6920?
I'd appreciate your thoughts...The Colt brand, IMO, would be easier to sell to the decision makers if you are looking to purchase for a department.
To answer:
1. No valid reason in my opinion, they are still the standard on quality. Is there others just as good, yes (BCM and Daniel Defense).
2. No, the 6940 is not worth the added premium. The mono rail is a no go for me. If the rails get messed up or whatever, you'll have to replace the entire upper to remedy. I would get the 6920 and add rails when necessary. That way you aren't stuck with an entire upper that needs to be replaced.
Again, thanks for the responses to my original question. It seems that we might be best served by looking at Colt. So here are a couple of follow-up questions:
1. Apart from the cost, is there any valid reason to not go with Colt?
2. Is the additional cost of the LE6940 worth it compared to the LE 6920?
I'd appreciate your thoughts...
There is no reason not to go with Colt. I don't feel they are the best Bang for your buck, but they are far from a bad choice.
I would not recommend the 6940 however. It was a nice attempt however it falls short in a number of way. The rail is to short, the barrel and barrel nut are proprietary, and I am not a big fan of the front sight.
Heavy Metal
10-19-10, 09:55
I would recommend you look at DD, BCM and Colt and consider S&W if you are on a tight budget.
I have a three year old DPMS M4gery (A-15) and it has worked great for several thousand rounds. I picked it up cheap & sold its 16" M4 upper last year. I am now using the rifle's lower on my dedicated AR22 (Spikes .22 LR M4 upper).
Don't fall into the "chart" lovers pool of cool aid. There are lots of great AR15s out there, buy what you want & can afford, it's your cash. Now that I have more resources I lean toward LMT rifles, others love Colts, and many on this site love BCM.
syclone170
10-19-10, 11:25
Edited. Stay on topic.
Right. Because clearly if you owned a gun that wasn't up to snuff in a safe full of 32 you'd be the ONLY one in the universe in his situation.
Nobody is saying a DPMS can't run what we're saying is FHA the likelihood of one running is greatly reduced due to the corners they cut in materials, methods. , and testing. Will it fail in 10 rounds or 10,000? With a brand that cuts that many corners who knows?
You know, this gets interesting, getting hounded by my admission that the DPMS's I own are good enough to defend myself if the need arises. If they can kill coyotes and prairie dogs they can damn well kill humans...
I have 8 30, 5 20, and 1 10 round mags for my AR's..350 rounds
3 30, 5 20 rounders for my mini14....190 rounds
35 enblock clips for the M1 Garand in a ammo box ready..280 rounds
Will I be alive for that many rounds???????... doubt it very seriously...
I have shooting guns since 1945 when I was 6 years old and it irritates the hell out of me when a bunch of so-called EXPERTS try to tell me that the guns I own are garbage when I know they aren't....
I own 32 guns and everyone of them are good or I wouldn't own them and everyone of them have a purpose also....
So, in a nutshell, take a flying ****........asswipes
You know, this gets interesting, getting hounded by my admission that the DPMS's I own are good enough to defend myself if the need arises. If they can kill coyotes and prairie dogs they can damn well kill humans...
I have 8 30, 5 20, and 1 10 round mags for my AR's..350 rounds
3 30, 5 20 rounders for my mini14....190 rounds
35 enblock clips for the M1 Garand in a ammo box ready..280 rounds
Will I be alive for that many rounds???????... doubt it very seriously...
I have shooting guns since 1945 when I was 6 years old and it irritates the hell out of me when a bunch of so-called EXPERTS try to tell me that the guns I own are garbage when I know they aren't....
I own 32 guns and everyone of them are good or I wouldn't own them and everyone of them have a purpose also....
So, in a nutshell, take a flying ****........asswipes
I needed a good laugh today, thanks...:sarcastic:
Question:
How might one "Take a flying ****"?
You know, this gets interesting, getting hounded by my admission that the DPMS's I own are good enough to defend myself if the need arises. If they can kill coyotes and prairie dogs they can damn well kill humans...
I have 8 30, 5 20, and 1 10 round mags for my AR's..350 rounds
3 30, 5 20 rounders for my mini14....190 rounds
35 enblock clips for the M1 Garand in a ammo box ready..280 rounds
Will I be alive for that many rounds???????... doubt it very seriously...
I have shooting guns since 1945 when I was 6 years old and it irritates the hell out of me when a bunch of so-called EXPERTS try to tell me that the guns I own are garbage when I know they aren't....
I own 32 guns and everyone of them are good or I wouldn't own them and everyone of them have a purpose also....
So, in a nutshell, take a flying ****........asswipes
Please feel free to let the door hit you.....
Owning a number of firearms, and even having a number of years shooting doesn't mean you know everything you need to know. Our level of knowledge is growing at an amazing rate. Just a few years ago most of the things we take for granted now in regards to training and equipment was unheard of. So it is to be assume that some people will be resistant to the fast paced changes. The Good enough attitude is dying and some people don't like that.
The simple fact is that these people you are telling to take a flying leap have more serious trigger time than most other people can dream of. The advice they give isn't based off of something they read or some unfounded opinion. It is based off of their real world experience and the experiences of people Like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, and other well known trainers. You may not like what they have to say. But they are saying it for a reason, and they deserve your respect.
Is your DPMS good enough? Maybe, maybe not. History has shown that it falls into the questionable category. Yours may work fine but it has a much higher chance of not working than some of the well respected brands around here. And that is the whole point. Cutting down on the chances we take with out lives.
syclone,
DPMS is garbage no matter how you look at it. You have posted this type of sillyness before and attempted to justify the purchase of inferior AR's.
You even went so far as to imply that your BM and DPMS are as good as AK's in combat.
Please do not continue down that path here.
I was about to say let the baby have his bottle...
But after seeing this:
You know, this gets interesting, getting hounded by my admission that the DPMS's I own are good enough to defend myself if the need arises. If they can kill coyotes and prairie dogs they can damn well kill humans...
I have 8 30, 5 20, and 1 10 round mags for my AR's..350 rounds
3 30, 5 20 rounders for my mini14....190 rounds
35 enblock clips for the M1 Garand in a ammo box ready..280 rounds
Will I be alive for that many rounds???????... doubt it very seriously...
I have shooting guns since 1945 when I was 6 years old and it irritates the hell out of me when a bunch of so-called EXPERTS try to tell me that the guns I own are garbage when I know they aren't....
I own 32 guns and everyone of them are good or I wouldn't own them and everyone of them have a purpose also....
So, in a nutshell, take a flying ****........asswipes
Dude, its not like he called your wife a man. Calm the F Down.
You call some "so called EXPERTS" well who the hell are you to say you know better? Just because you have been shooting sicne 1945? Being old does not make YOU an expert either. If anything some could just say you are a crotchety old man who refuses to hear reason.
I guess its the same with people my age and people your age, we refuse to listen when we are told we are wrong.
Face it, DPMS as well as the BM like the one I own are inferior guns. They use inferior parts, inferior assembly techniques and so forth. How the hell can you argue that your DPMS is as good as Colt if your RE nut and gas key is not/not properly staked? Its just stupid.
Im not on here to hump IG's leg but you need to face it, some people know more than you despite being around on this Earth half as long as you.
To the OP. As other's have said, Colt should be a fairly easy sell to the pincil pushers. Its a known name with a known history even to the non-firearm crown. BCM makes awesome rifles but I doubt anyone writing a check at city hall has ever heard of them. Get the Colts and keep your guys/gals safe.
I needed a good laugh today, thanks...:sarcastic:
Question:
How might one "Take a flying ****"?
Mile high club?
Mile high club?
I guess I've taken a few flying ****s then...;)
Mile high club?
that might be "Having a flying ****"
I'll go up in a rental Cessna 172 this weekend with the GF and try to figure it out... relax, it has a multi axis auto-pilot. :sarcastic:
that might be "Having a flying ****"
I'll go up in a rental Cessna 172 this weekend with the GF and try to figure it out... relax, it has a multi axis auto-pilot. :sarcastic:
Be sure to write a well documented report and post your findings here...:D
gtmtnbiker98
10-19-10, 11:59
Be sure to write a well documented report and post your findings here...:DSo Rob can add it to "The Chart."
Heavy Metal
10-19-10, 12:11
You know, this gets interesting, getting hounded by my admission that the DPMS's I own are good enough to defend myself if the need arises. If they can kill coyotes and prairie dogs they can damn well kill humans...
I have 8 30, 5 20, and 1 10 round mags for my AR's..350 rounds
3 30, 5 20 rounders for my mini14....190 rounds
35 enblock clips for the M1 Garand in a ammo box ready..280 rounds
Will I be alive for that many rounds???????... doubt it very seriously...
I have shooting guns since 1945 when I was 6 years old and it irritates the hell out of me when a bunch of so-called EXPERTS try to tell me that the guns I own are garbage when I know they aren't....
I own 32 guns and everyone of them are good or I wouldn't own them and everyone of them have a purpose also....
So, in a nutshell, take a flying ****........asswipes
No one is trying to tell you your guns are garbage. What we are trying to tell the OP is that DPMS is simply not acceptable as a life or death duty weapon.
A Colt bolt and a DPMS bolt may look the same but the Colt Bolt is made from Carpenter 158 Steel and HP/MPI tested. The DPMS bolt is made from a lesser grade, 8620 Chrome/Moly. It is also not tested for internal defects by the factory.
DPMS is also notorious for tight chambers that tend to give issues with full power 5.56 duty ammo like extraction problems and popped-primers that can tie up the trigger group and stop the weapon from firing.
Just because a Colt and a DPMS look alike at first glance does not make them so.
If you do not underdstand the difference between a tested critical component like the Bolt that is made with the proper materials and an inferior look-alike that is made from cheaper, inferior steel, then it really doesn't matter how old you are and how long you have been shooting, you have no business giving a LEO advice on what he should be purchasing for a department for serious use.
So Rob can add it to "The Chart."
Huh. So, do I get a two-fer? Former girlfriend was pilot, check. Wife is pilot, check.
I am SO into the flying fornication...
Beat Trash
10-19-10, 12:33
Again, thanks for the responses to my original question. It seems that we might be best served by looking at Colt. So here are a couple of follow-up questions:
1. Apart from the cost, is there any valid reason to not go with Colt?
2. Is the additional cost of the LE6940 worth it compared to the LE 6920?
I'd appreciate your thoughts...
The Colt I would look at for an agency purchase would be the 6920. I wouldn't go for the 6940.
The Colt would be the gun most likely to be known by non-shooters within your agencies command staff. This may or may not be an issue.
The only reason not to go with the Colt would be pricing. I would have the individual responsible contact a few companies and get price and availability for the Colt as well as a few other options, such as the DD and maybe the S&W.
Remember we are talking about Departmental purchases here, not civilian or individual officer purchases. The prices and taxes are different. You might find the difference in pricing isn't that much.
If the difference in pricing is enough to sway you from the Colt, then I'd write it up through your chain of command, using the information on the chart as a guide to explain why your choice is sufficient for your agencies needs.
I'd feel comfortable recommending a Colt 6920, a DD or a BCM as an agency purchase carbine. Getting it approved, that could be another matter...
Beat Trash
10-19-10, 12:35
that might be "Having a flying ****"
I'll go up in a rental Cessna 172 this weekend with the GF and try to figure it out... relax, it has a multi axis auto-pilot. :sarcastic:
Gives a whole new meaning to "Flying the friendly sky"!
SWATcop556
10-19-10, 13:39
Gentlemen this needs to stay ON TRACK and ON TOPIC or this will get shut down.
Syclone this is your one warning. Posts that insult members, mods, or staff WILL NOT be tolerated.
A friend of mine got a DPMS of some sort new for $600...16" lightweight barrel, fixed handle, A1 style sights. Surprisingly the gas key was well staked. It shot well and had no issues in 100rds (not saying much I know). We did a little bounding and break contact drill with some rapid fire.
I'd say at $600 it was an OK purchase, I advised him to get a BCM BCG or just bolt and keep the DPMS as a spare. Not good at their over $800 retail price since you can get a Spikes or assemble a bare bones BCM for that money.
guys i know i'm gonna get flamed for this, but i run a DPMS lower on my teaching gun for like the last eight years. i have had zero issues with it. i think you will run into more issues with thier upper than you would with the lowers. getting back to the topic, for dept. issue rifles i would look at something else. the members have given good advice on what to go with for duty. :o
guys i know i'm gonna get flamed for this, but i run a DPMS lower on my teaching gun for like the last eight years. i have had zero issues with it. i think you will run into more issues with thier upper than you would with the lowers. getting back to the topic, for dept. issue rifles i would look at something else. the members have given good advice on what to go with for duty. :o
Oh, heck, I know lots of serious shooters that run guns that started out as DPMS, or Bushmaster, or Oly Arms, but had most of the parts replaced through malfunctions, breakage, or just getting worn out.
It's just cheaper to buy a better gun to start with, as well as safer and more effective for the person having to run it.
Correction: it has ALL of the quality parts we expect. The LE line of carbines/middy's from Spikes Tactical is the best bang for your buck and proves that you don't have to skimp on quality to get a good deal.
My bad guys. I had no idea this guy would piggyback my post. I don't have a high post count, but I do tend to do my research. Ignore the shenanigans from that guy. Spike's offers a quality product. That said, all my current rifles are a conglomeration of LMT, BCM, DD, and Stag (just the lower).
To the OP- if you can swing Colt 6920s, I wouldn't worry about anything else. Unless you can talk them into middys of some flavor.
Too bad there isn't a DPMS rep that could answer some questions about their products. If really they do or did have short falls and what not.:(
Too bad there isn't a DPMS rep that could answer some questions about their products. If really they do or did have short falls and what not.:(
There are a few DPMS employees here at M4C, but you're unlikely to see a DPMS authorized rep answering questions. M4C would be a tough crowd with higher standards than DPMS elects to meet, and it's not the market they want anyway.
You would also be unlikely, in the extreme, to receive true and candid responses. A common thing with a variety of manufacturers, not just DPMS. Work the booths at a major show sometime and ask certain questions. Many will lie straight to your face.
There are a few DPMS employees here at M4C, but you're unlikely to see a DPMS authorized rep answering questions. M4C would be a tough crowd with higher standards than DPMS elects to meet, and it's not the market they want anyway.
You would also be unlikely, in the extreme, to receive true and candid responses. A common thing with a variety of manufacturers, not just DPMS. Work the booths at a major show sometime and ask certain questions. Many will lie straight to your face.
Like your avatar:
Just seems with all the bashing of DPMS, it seems unfair that they are not represented. I do not own a DPMS, I have handled and fired one (not in combat) and it seemed to be accurate and function well.
Like you said,"Who knows what is real and true in today's society?":D
Just seems with all the bashing of DPMS, it seems unfair that they are not represented.
Someone will be along shortly to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is 100% their choice. I do not believe that any reps from DPMS have been kept off the site by staff.
With all of the various brands of weapons/gear/etc out there, it is inevitable that some will get 'bashed' here without any active rep who answers back. Sometimes this may simply be a company who is too small to have an active forum presence.
In the case of a larger manufacturer like DPMS who clearly has other outlets of advertising and public relations (http://www.dpmsinc.com/awards/sponsorship.aspx), I think the logical conclusion would simply be that they do not consider participation here to be a worthwhile expenditure of their time. That's certainly their decision to make, and I don't think it should influence people's willingness to talk about them one way or the other.
If I am wrong, and DPMS has actively been kept away, then obviously my conclusion would be incorrect.
:laugh:
DPMS claims a large number of agencies using their equipment.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/military/listing.aspx
justin_247
10-20-10, 13:33
:laugh:
DPMS claims a large number of agencies using their equipment.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/military/listing.aspx
Looks like they just listed every agency they could find that got a sample from them or purchased a minor part.
For example, they list the U.S. Marine Corps. I bet you could spend 30 yrs in the Marines without ever seeing whatever product it was they purchased from DPMS.
The rest of the agencies who actually purchased guns obviously purchased them from a position of ignorance.
:laugh:DPMS claims a large number of agencies using their equipment.
Indeed there are. Price point and immediate availability are critical selection criteria for most agencies.
Looks like they just listed every agency they could find that got a sample from them or purchased a minor part.
That list includes a couple that allow the brand as an I/O option, have I/Os in the guns, or that own(ed) one or two. There are a number of agencies that aren't on the list, too.
(This is also not unique to DPMS. Many manufacturers are...creative...in how they construct such lists of users.)
Too bad there isn't a DPMS rep that could answer some questions about their products. If really they do or did have short falls and what not.:(
IIRC there may have been one that posted in the Chart thread and told us they were going to go get more information and come back. We never saw them again.
I wonder what questions you expect them to answer though.
"We're the best!"
"Really, do you HPT and MPI all of your barrels and bolts?"
"no"
Indeed there are. Price point and immediate availability are critical selection criteria for most agencies.
That list includes a couple that allow the brand as an I/O option, have I/Os in the guns, or that own(ed) one or two. There are a number of agencies that aren't on the list, too.
(This is also not unique to DPMS. Many manufacturers are...creative...in how they construct such lists of users.)
Hopkins, MN PD just got some donations for new rifles. Do you know what they bought?
http://www.mnsun.com/articles/2010/10/20/headlines/268ho21weapons.txt
GLOCKMASTER
10-20-10, 14:02
:laugh:
DPMS claims a large number of agencies using their equipment.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/military/listing.aspx
Our name was on that list until I called them a few years ago and told them to remove it.
IIRC there may have been one that posted in the Chart thread and told us they were going to go get more information and come back. We never saw them again.
I wonder what questions you expect them to answer though.
"We're the best!"
"Really, do you HPT and MPI all of your barrels and bolts?"
"no"
They say they do:
Barrels and bolts are lot tested by high pressure and MPI.
We use only mil-spec fire control group pins.
All rifles and complete upper barrel assemblies are test fired and function checked at the factory.
They say they do:
Barrels and bolts are lot tested by high pressure and MPI.
We use only mil-spec fire control group pins.
All rifles and complete upper barrel assemblies are test fired and function checked at the factory.
They also say "only the best at DPMS"; and we all know that to be fiction (Or I guess I should say: "Most of us accept that to be fiction" because some argue in the face of facts).
There are a few DPMS employees here at M4C, but you're unlikely to see a DPMS authorized rep answering questions. M4C would be a tough crowd with higher standards than DPMS elects to meet, and it's not the market they want anyway.
You would also be unlikely, in the extreme, to receive true and candid responses. A common thing with a variety of manufacturers, not just DPMS. Work the booths at a major show sometime and ask certain questions. Many will lie straight to your face.
Absolutely. That's why I was interested in getting feedback from members who have actually used the weapon (and are less likely to be positively biased), as opposed to the manufacturer's reps. The information I've gathered from these posts also makes me question the 'advice' given to me by the 'preferred firearms vendor' that I've been working with - he talked the DPMS product up a storm...
Frankly, I don't want me or any of my colleagues to have the weapon fail when we're in harm's way. We need to reduce the possibility of a serious malfunction by purchasing rifles whose critical components are individually tested, not batch tested.
They say they do
At this point, it's not really worth getting into the individual vs. batch testing argument. I think Rob's point stands, which is: 'What would reps have to say even if they showed up?'
Like I said, nothing is stopping them from coming here and representing their product. Most of the audience here sets a high standard for evidence of claims though. Calling stuff "mil-spec" will not earn any points.
Until they raise the bar on their quality control, it seems like a rep showing a strong presence here would basically consist of them popping into a thread to say, "Sorry about that. Send it in and we'll fix it."
If the rep wants to be intellectually dishonest, they could chime in over and over with claims of meeting "mil-spec."
At the end of the day, I can't see how it would be worth it for them. They've made their priorities clear through the choices they make and the products they manufacture (or assemble).
Not to fear though: you don't really need a voice on forums if you are putting out an amazing product. If they ever decide to revamp their standards for quality, the difference will be noticed and reported here. Until then, anything a rep has to say would most likely be taken as an empty promise.
The information I've gathered from these posts also makes me question the 'advice' given to me by the 'preferred firearms vendor' that I've been working with - he talked the DPMS product up a storm...
.
He has a bigger profit margin with DPMS than he does colt or other top tier amnufacturers I am sure. Too many people have nothing but $$$ in their eyes.
He has a bigger profit margin with DPMS than he does colt or other top tier amnufacturers I am sure. Too many people have nothing but $$$ in their eyes.
No doubt. The disappointing part is that the vendor is a former LEO...
No doubt. The disappointing part is that the vendor is a former LEO...
Thats just pathetic & wrong; or possibly, he is extremely ignorant...
They say they do:
Barrels and bolts are lot tested by high pressure and MPI.
We use only mil-spec fire control group pins.
All rifles and complete upper barrel assemblies are test fired and function checked at the factory.
At this point I'm not sure if you're joking, drunk, a troll, or have no idea what you're talking about.
No doubt. The disappointing part is that the vendor is a former LEO...
And that makes him an expert how? I think most would agree that the level of gun knowledge amongst LEOs is about the same as amongst the general population.
A guy I know who is on his SWAT team and teaches some basic ccw and def handgun classes here locally has a DPMS Carbine and an MP-5 in his police vehicle.
At this point I'm not sure if you're joking, drunk, a troll, or have no idea what you're talking about.I took it that he was quoting DPMS. I've seen them make this claim before too, that they batch test (samples of individual lots) their bolts and their barrels.
Heavy Metal
10-20-10, 16:23
To me, batch testing the bolts is a lot less important than are they made from the correct Carpenter 158 steel or are they made of 8620 series steel.
That should be one of your chart criteria IMO Robb.
jonconsiglio
10-20-10, 16:23
When I bought my first AR a number of years ago, one of the first I picked up was a DPMS because it was what was at the shop and I bought it on a whim. It worked fine at first on a static range, then I got it outdoors and it was my first time shooting drills with it. After the third or fourth mag I had a serious failure to extract.
I tried to clear it and the CH wouldn't budge. It got to a point where I was stomping down on the CH and still nothing. I ended up using a mallet and the brass rods and finally opened the bolt enough to get a rod in there to hammer it open. I was shooting Federal .223. This was one of a number of failures, but this was the worst.
A couple days later I went to the range. One of the guys there that does some armorer work for the shop took a look at it and said a number of negative things. I promptly traded that rifle in and went to Noveske. Working on a BCM and KAC right now and have been through a number of others as well. I will never buy or recommend DPMS to anyone, especially those that use them for duty or home defense.
justin_247
10-20-10, 16:31
I took it that he was quoting DPMS. I've seen them make this claim before too, that they batch test (samples of individual lots) their bolts and their barrels.
He was quoting their "Official Myth Busting Thread" on ARFCOM. Everybody who hasn't read it should do so... it's quite entertaining. Apparently, they think the F marking on the FSB means "forged."
To me, batch testing the bolts is a lot less important than are they made from the correct Carpenter 158 steel or are they made of 8620 series steel.
That should be one of your chart criteria IMO Robb.
I completely agree with this. Additionally, I think the type of aluminum used for the receiver extension (7075 vs. 6061) should be on there, as well.
Another thing you could do with the chart is a grading scale using Excel's formula system, in which the various components on the Colt add up to 100%. Then you can score the rifles. Some components might get higher points if they're higher quality (DD and Noveske's barrels, for example).
He was quoting their "Official Myth Busting Thread" on ARFCOM. Everybody who hasn't read it should do so... it's quite entertaining. Apparently, they think the F marking on the FSB means "forged."
I wish I could remember where I heard it - I don't think it was Arfcom. I thought is was on their forums, but it might have been part of the pitch they gave in association with Omega Outbreak 3. Anyway, it's a claim they make - no idea if they're lying. I do know that I have a buddy with a DPMS and I changed his buffer tube out for a milspec version so he could use a VLTOR stock and Noveske endplate. I didn't see any sign of blue loctite, and the castle nut was pretty cheesy.
All I could find on their forums:
Posted DPMS Forums: 1/29/2010 12:22 PM #8051
JonF
Moderator
Total Posts:1193
Last Post:6/2/2010
Member Since:2/26/2008
- We do stake the carrier key
- We use the blue extractor insert
(the color of the insert is only to indicate the coil count of the spring)
- We use blue locktite on the castle nut and buffer tube as a less destructive way to completely secure the stock than staking it.
- We offer heavier buffers at the customer's request (Normal, Heavy, Double Heavy and Counterweight)
- We batch test our carrier groups
I did do some work on DPMS guns in Iraq and I stand by my comments. I used N.C's chamber reamer and it removed enough material so obviously the chamber wasn't 5.56.
I had to remove the FSB on a few weapons to remove the FF rail systems and the pins were so soft that they deformed as they were being taken out.
They don't HP/MPI their barrels and bolts and I am pretty sure their barrels are made from 4140.
That is enough for me.
Like your avatar:
Just seems with all the bashing of DPMS, it seems unfair that they are not represented. I do not own a DPMS, I have handled and fired one (not in combat) and it seemed to be accurate and function well.
Like you said,"Who knows what is real and true in today's society?":D
Seriously. Gun stores and vendors are in it to make money. Especially in the current market. When my former employer purchased BM carbines they did very little research and in the end the sales were driven by the dollar signs or lack thereof.
We paid almost as much for our guns in their configuration as a stock Colt 6920.
No doubt. The disappointing part is that the vendor is a former LEO...
[QUOTE=chadbag;791223]And that makes him an expert how? I think most would agree that the level of gun knowledge amongst LEOs is about the same as amongst the general population.
I am not suggesting that being a LEO makes someone a firearms expert.
My disappointment with this particular vendor stems from the fact that he would recommend a firearm that appears to have reliability issues to be a police force's patrol rifle. With him as a former cop, I would have expected a recommendation that was based more on officer safety/survival than the bottom line of any business transaction.
And that makes him an expert how? I think most would agree that the level of gun knowledge amongst LEOs is about the same as amongst the general population.
I am not suggesting that being a LEO makes someone a firearms expert.
My disappointment with this particular vendor stems from the fact that he would recommend a firearm that appears to have reliability issues to be a police force's patrol rifle. With him as a former cop, I would have expected a recommendation that was based more on officer safety/survival than the bottom line of any business transaction.
Understood. In his defense, he probably does not realize the hype of it being "mil spec" is just that and that they are really crap. He probably thinks that they are reasonable guns and therefore a good deal.
Seriously. Gun stores and vendors are in it to make money. Especially in the current market. When my former employer purchased BM carbines they did very little research and in the end the sales were driven by the dollar signs or lack thereof.
We paid almost as much for our guns in their configuration as a stock Colt 6920.
Thanks Iraqgunz - I intend to use your post and others like it to explain to my non-firearms savvy civilian chain-of-command why the cheapest option is unacceptable for a patrol rifle.
wolf_walker
10-21-10, 18:21
Thanks Iraqgunz - I intend to use your post and others like it to explain to my non-firearms savvy civilian chain-of-command why the cheapest option is unacceptable for a patrol rifle.
That is a rough position to be in unless command is a lot more open minded than usual. Good luck man.
Originally Posted by Sapper22
Thanks Iraqgunz - I intend to use your post and others like it to explain to my non-firearms savvy civilian chain-of-command why the cheapest option is unacceptable for a patrol rifle.
That is a rough position to be in unless command is a lot more open minded than usual. Good luck man.Don't forget the magic word..."liability"
syclone170
10-22-10, 10:56
sorry I was in a bad mood the other day fellas, some asshole stole my motor off my boat and I was in a bad mood..:mad:
sorry I was in a bad mood the other day fellas, some asshole stole my motor off my boat and I was in a bad mood..:mad:
Sorry to hear about your bad luck.
At this point I'm not sure if you're joking, drunk, a troll, or have no idea what you're talking about.
Really a troll? You forgot mall ninja.
I read the info out of a DPMS brochure that I got from my local Scheels store that sells them.
I try to get as much info about products as I can. This includes this site as well as a handful of other sites.
I thank those that give info without the extra additives.
Really a troll? You forgot mall ninja.
I read the info out of a DPMS brochure that I got from my local Scheels store that sells them.
I try to get as much info about products as I can. This includes this site as well as a handful of other sites.
I thank those that give info without the extra additives.
This is a perfect example of giving someone information that they are not qualified or do not have the knowledgebase to correctly interpret. Trying to explain things to you would take forever know because you've already reached conclusions based in ignorance.
You think that batch HPT and MPI is somehow the same thing as what everyone else means when they say "HPT/MPI" and it's not. Because you got your information before your education it's now an uphill battle to explain things to you.
Hence my comment. You're either joking (meaning you really do understand all of this and maybe you're posting sarcastically and it's not coming through), drunk (meaning you're posting from a temporarily incomprehensible mental capacity), a troll (meaning your willfully ignoring reality and substituting your own for your own amusement), or you just have no idea what you're talking about (pretty self explanatory). What you're saying sounds just logical enough to fool someone that doesn't know better, but wrong enough to foll those same people.
I took it that he was quoting DPMS. I've seen them make this claim before too, that they batch test (samples of individual lots) their bolts and their barrels.
I know what he's doing. What's amusing is that he can't see the problem with that. :sarcastic:
This is a perfect example of giving someone information that they are not qualified or do not have the knowledgebase to correctly interpret. Trying to explain things to you would take forever know because you've already reached conclusions based in ignorance.
You think that batch HPT and MPI is somehow the same thing as what everyone else means when they say "HPT/MPI" and it's not. Because you got your information before your education it's now an uphill battle to explain things to you.
Hence my comment. You're either joking (meaning you really do understand all of this and maybe you're posting sarcastically and it's not coming through), drunk (meaning you're posting from a temporarily incomprehensible mental capacity), a troll (meaning your willfully ignoring reality and substituting your own for your own amusement), or you just have no idea what you're talking about (pretty self explanatory). What you're saying sounds just logical enough to fool someone that doesn't know better, but wrong enough to foll those same people.
Maybe I misinterpreted V-J, but I didn't see him posting any of that as what he believes, only what DPMS says.
I realize the real vibrant hate some M4C'rs have for DPMS, but I think this was a case of siginficant overinterpretation of what was said.
What say you, V-J? Are you a DPMS lover? (get a rope ready, boys...)
I know what he's doing. What's amusing is that he can't see the problem with that. :sarcastic:
Ah. Perhaps you could explain what the problem with that actually is? I'm curious.
Lets back up a minute. Here's whatstarted this.
I said DPMS doesn't HPT or MPI all of their barrels.
He replied with "they said they do" only to quote them as saying "we batch test everything".
How do you even begin a discussion based on this? "all" and "batch" are clearly not the same thing. This is what prompted my statement.
There's nothing wrong inherrently with accepting what they say, and in fact I believe DPMS is telling the truth here. The problem is when one asks questions they lack the knowledgebase to understand the answers to and then interjects said answer into a conversation that is over their head.
It's like saying "that house isn't blue it's red" only to have the other person say "dude, I know! That house is so blue!"
Lets back up a minute. Here's whatstarted this.
I said DPMS doesn't HPT or MPI all of their barrels.
He replied with "they said they do" only to quote them as saying "we batch test everything".
How do you even begin a discussion based on this? "all" and "batch" are clearly not the same thing. This is what prompted my statement.
There's nothing wrong inherrently with accepting what they say, and in fact I believe DPMS is telling the truth here. The problem is when one asks questions they lack the knowledgebase to understand the answers to and then interjects said answer into a conversation that is over their head.
It's like saying "that house isn't blue it's red" only to have the other person say "dude, I know! That house is so blue!"
Thanks for taking the time to clarify. I think I missed a post in there somewhere.
Maybe I misinterpreted V-J, but I didn't see him posting any of that as what he believes, only what DPMS says.
I realize the real vibrant hate some M4C'rs have for DPMS, but I think this was a case of siginficant overinterpretation of what was said.
What say you, V-J? Are you a DPMS lover? (get a rope ready, boys...)
Do I love them no, do I own one or ever plan on owning one no, I have shot a couple different ones and they have functioned fine.
Are there better rifles and parts made, of course. I was amazed of all the bashing they get and they sell alot of rifles and parts. If they were so bad, they would be out of business.
I stand corrected on batch testing and indiv. testing.
But since I am so DUMB, how many get tested in a batch test?
50 out of 100?
20?
10?
.....how many get tested in a batch test?
50 out of 100?
20?
10?
I've wondered about this also, but I wouldn't be surprised if it varied by manufacturer.
If they were so bad, they would be out of business.
This is another innacurate statement.
I bought an aftermarket battery for a digital camera several years ago. It was shit. It wouldn't hold a charge at all. Go online and find all sorts of others with the same complaints about this brand. About a year ago I needed another battery and, not remembering the original problem, bought another aftermarket for a different camera. Same problem. Which jogged my memory, and sent me looking for the old battery. Found it. Same brand. By your logic the company should not have remained in existance for 5+ years because they make crap, and in fact many people found out the hard way that they make crap.
Furthermore, let's look at the average firearm buyer. Most will NEVER shoot the gun, a few will maybe occasionally shoot the gun, and a very, very tiny percetage will actually get out and really put some rounds through it. I have had people come to our drills night and shoot <200 rounds and then tell me they shot more in that night than they did in the entire previous year! :eek:
For these kinds of people DPMS and other lesser brands will work just fine. They equate 20-40 rounds, slowfire, after an anal-retentive cleaning, at the range, from the bench, once or twice a year with groups in the sub-2" range at 50 yards to be "good". How do you argue with that? They have no frame of reference. Conversely compare that to the reports of guys that have to work on these things operationally, or who have the misfortune of working for agencies that buy them in quantity, and the problems abound. This is what we calll a clue.
As to how many in a batch, only those that batch test will know. This is part of the problem. I know exactly how many "all" is. It's every single solitary one.
Rob, maybe we got off on the wrong foot here.
I was just wondering why everyone bashed DPMS so much?
If they have there niche like you say for the people that shoot 200 rounds a year, that is fine. I dislike the comments that some say about being ignorant or their AR is junk. If it has a place for some people, why belittle them.
It seems like you know your AR's very well and that is good, so others can learn.
One other thing, if they say "all" are tested, how do we know "all" are tested?;)
This site isn't about the 200 rounds a year guys. This site is about the 2000 rounds in a week guys.
v-j,
I am convinced that your only purpose here is stir up crap. I may be wrong though. The reason that companies like DPMS, Oly Arms, BM, etc...continue to sell their stuff and not go out of business is because people refuse to research and make a true comparison. Many AR owners don't even know what HP/MPI testing is. That includes many military and LEO personnel.
Ask people who sell guns for a living and post on this site how many people make their decisions and it will be very clear.
Why not ask DPMS how many get batch tested? Why don't you then ask why they don't just do individual testing?
Ultimately no matter what I or anyone else says you are probably not going to listen.
Do I love them no, do I own one or ever plan on owning one no, I have shot a couple different ones and they have functioned fine.
Are there better rifles and parts made, of course. I was amazed of all the bashing they get and they sell alot of rifles and parts. If they were so bad, they would be out of business.
I stand corrected on batch testing and indiv. testing.
But since I am so DUMB, how many get tested in a batch test?
50 out of 100?
20?
10?
If they were to make the claim I would say show us the money. They would have paperwork that documents the testing.
Rob, maybe we got off on the wrong foot here.
I was just wondering why everyone bashed DPMS so much?
If they have there niche like you say for the people that shoot 200 rounds a year, that is fine. I dislike the comments that some say about being ignorant or their AR is junk. If it has a place for some people, why belittle them.
It seems like you know your AR's very well and that is good, so others can learn.
One other thing, if they say "all" are tested, how do we know "all" are tested?;)
This site isn't about the 200 rounds a year guys. This site is about the 2000 rounds in a week guys.
food for thought... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64658)
Rob, maybe we got off on the wrong foot here.
I was just wondering why everyone bashed DPMS so much?
If they have there niche like you say for the people that shoot 200 rounds a year, that is fine. I dislike the comments that some say about being ignorant or their AR is junk. If it has a place for some people, why belittle them.
It seems like you know your AR's very well and that is good, so others can learn.
One other thing, if they say "all" are tested, how do we know "all" are tested?;)
I wonder why people commonly confuse telling the truth with bashing.
Apparently if you say something sucks and back it up with fact, it is bashing? At what point is it classified as telling the truth?
C4
At what point is it classified as telling the truth?
When it matches one's preconceived notions? ;)
Rob, maybe we got off on the wrong foot here.
I was just wondering why everyone bashed DPMS so much?
If they have there niche like you say for the people that shoot 200 rounds a year, that is fine. I dislike the comments that some say about being ignorant or their AR is junk. If it has a place for some people, why belittle them.
"ignorant" is an objective fact. "junk" is partly subjective but can be objectivized.
Frankly, I am filled with contempt for people who are so childish that they cannot accept the truth about an inanimate object they have purchased. If someone cannot take the truth, screw them.
What makes DPMS, BM and Armalite so offensive to me, is that they are offered at a nearly identical price as more quality guns. And then they lie, as companies about being "mil-spec" and being used by our nation's military.
I think the conceptions of "mil-spec" is part of the problem.
Most people think of "mil-spec" as dimensions not dimensions and composition. The general population looks at "mil-spec" as meaning parts being able to be swapped betwixt different AR makers and that part of the definition is true concerning low tier makers. So. with that misconception wide spread, the lower tier makers capitalize on that ignorance.
The most prevalent LPK's are the different DPMS Kits. They are everywhere and if you talk to seemingly knowledgeable AR folks, a lot of them have DPMS LPK as "backups", yet they'll own a Colt, LMT, DD, etc.
So, It is really up to the Upper Tier AR Makers to educate the populace. Just like they all list, "Properly Stake Gas Key", they all need to be listing "Carpenter 158 Shot-Peened MPI'd HPT's Bolts" with an explanation as to why that is important and so on for the other parts and features that set the Upper Tiers guns apart. This is what Rob_S did with the CHART but the makers should be expounding on it.
If one of the Upper Tier Makers would put dollar values to each of the features a good AR should have, (like what it costs to MPI, HPT, Stake, Carpenter 158, Shot Peen, CM4150 vs 4140, chrome plate, etc. it would be very obvious as to how expensive the lower tiers makers really are for not giving these "Mil-Spec" features on their rifles.
.
wolf_walker
10-22-10, 22:10
If one of the Upper Tier Makers would put dollar values to each of the features a good AR should have, it would be very obvious as to how expensive the lower tiers makers really are.
.
I've often thought, since getting into these things and doing the homework, that the profit margin must be a lot higher for everyone on the less well made examples.
I think the conceptions of "mil-spec" is part of the problem.
Most people think of "mil-spec" as dimensions not dimensions and composition.
dimensions
materials
assembly methods
testing
most meet #1 (and even not all of it when it comes to things like receiver extension diameter) and from there on it all unravels.
DaBears_85
10-23-10, 05:49
Why do we have this same argument at least once a week?
Why do we have this same argument at least once a week?
Because it is "the" argument.
And we should continue to have it, because it continues to educate and enlighten.
Honestly, I love these kinds of threads. They are the raison d' etre of this site, if you ask me.
Because it is "the" argument.
And we should continue to have it, because it continues to educate and enlighten.
Honestly, I love these kinds of threads. They are the raison d' etre of this site, if you ask me.
I agree.
What is the alternative when someone comes and starts a thread asking for opinions? Don't reply? And in turn when someone posts followups from a position of ignorance do we let the inaccuracies stand?
dimensions
materials
assembly methods
testing
most meet #1 (and even not all of it when it comes to things like receiver extension diameter) and from there on it all unravels.
=================================
Thanks for the "rest of the story" on the aspects of "mil-spec".
I know when I first looked at AR's 2-years ago, the modularity was what impressed me the most and that is what was pushed at gun stores.
Since then, I've realized that most people associate "mil-spec" to dimensions only. I still think it would be a big asset to educating the public if manufs would show how much it costs to MPI & HPT test, how much more 4150 costs than 4140, etc.
.
This site isn't about the 200 rounds a year guys. This site is about the 2000 rounds in a week guys.
Did I miss something? I've never read that and not many guys can spend $500+ a week on ammo.
Did I miss something? Who came up w/ this steaming pile of dung? Not many guys can spend $500+ a week on ammo...get real.
Oh, I think you would be suprised. ;)
C4
Yeah but grant, you don't count. You are a dealer and pay a lot less. :D
Obviously the 2000 was a bit of an exaggeration. I picked a number intentionally high just for that reason. The point I was trying to make is that this site attracts the more serious shooters. If I am being completely honest, when I came here I did not fall into that category although I thought I did. However thanks to the people here I now feel that I am becoming one.
Beat Trash
10-23-10, 14:24
Ignoring the cost of ammunition for a moment. Just for a moment.
Companies like DPMS stay in business because people continue to buy their products, which are made with a sufficient profit margin built in.
This happens because buyers are not educated to a certain extent. Many are getting bad advice from people they ask.
Nothing new here...
If and when a new buyer comes here and asks for advice prior to making a substantial purchase that I feel obliged to help in any way possible. Most on this site will help when asked.
The issue is that many products out there, including a DPMS AR, will function to an extent. The shooter who only puts 200 rds a year, shooting from a bench might get what they perceive as good service from their gun. The shooter who trains hard with their gun, going to classes in which 2,000 rds would be put through the gun in a day or two, might require more in the way of quality control and quality of materials, out of their gun.
The ironic thing is that in the current market, the 200rd a year shooter could purchase a similar gun to the one used by the 2,000 a day shooter, for about the same cost. By doing so, the 200rd a year shooter will not have waisted their money, or "outgrow" the capability of their gun.
Some people will argue to their last breath, justifying their choice vs. admitting they made a poor or uninformed choice. Not much can be done for those types.
DaBears_85
10-23-10, 14:29
I agree.
What is the alternative when someone comes and starts a thread asking for opinions? Don't reply? And in turn when someone posts followups from a position of ignorance do we let the inaccuracies stand?
I didn't mean it like that, I'm all for the free exchange of ideas and information that this site provides. All I meant was that we have this conversation enough that a simple search would have fielded all the answers you could ever hope for.
wolf_walker
10-23-10, 14:41
a simple search would have fielded all the answers you could ever hope for.
The age-old plea to use the search. I think that like not everyone can be a Marine, or a rocket scientist, or president, not everyone is capable of using the search function of message boards. :p
(but I am, and I didn't buy a DPMS or Bushmaster)
I didn't mean it like that, I'm all for the free exchange of ideas and information that this site provides. All I meant was that we have this conversation enough that a simple search would have fielded all the answers you could ever hope for.
Welcome to the Internet! LOL
I want to share some info. There is another member here who can validate it. I am currently doing a 2 day Patrol Rifle I course. The instructor is a deputy sheriff in the area.
One of the personnel was shooting his DPMS in the course today. And take as guess at to who was having malfunctions? On top of that his endplate looked like cheap aluminum and the castle nut didn't have cutouts to stake it.
So how about that DPMS quality now? I only wish that I had a Ned Christiansen chamber reamer because I know what will happen when I run into the chamber.
I didn't mean it like that, I'm all for the free exchange of ideas and information that this site provides. All I meant was that we have this conversation enough that a simple search would have fielded all the answers you could ever hope for.
As the OP, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread to date. My original search (pre-thread starter) for 'DPMS' yielded 500 hits. Many of the posts I read were too specific in nature to help answer my questions.
Additionally, I really wanted current feedback to help frame responses to questions from my agency's administrators. The only way to ensure this is to ask "Fellas, what do you think about ...", and get timely responses. Technology and techniques change quickly - relying on old posts or threads run the risk of getting inaccurate information.
So again, my thanks and appreciation for the substantive, thoughtful posts that have been submitted by most. I have 14 years of military service behind me and an additional 10 years as a police officer - but I came to you for advice because I recognize my knowledge shortfall with patrol carbines!
I'd like to think that I would remain positive and supportive of people who asked me the same basic questions in my area of expertise...
I want to share some info. There is another member here who can validate it. I am currently doing a 2 day Patrol Rifle I course. The instructor is a deputy sheriff in the area.
One of the personnel was shooting his DPMS in the course today. And take as guess at to who was having malfunctions? On top of that his endplate looked like cheap aluminum and the castle nut didn't have cutouts to stake it.
So how about that DPMS quality now? I only wish that I had a Ned Christiansen chamber reamer because I know what will happen when I run into the chamber.
Iraqgunz,
what makes & models do your fellow classmates favor?
DaBears_85
10-24-10, 21:14
As the OP, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread to date. My original search (pre-thread starter) for 'DPMS' yielded 500 hits. Many of the posts I read were too specific in nature to help answer my questions.
Additionally, I really wanted current feedback to help frame responses to questions from my agency's administrators. The only way to ensure this is to ask "Fellas, what do you think about ...", and get timely responses. Technology and techniques change quickly - relying on old posts or threads run the risk of getting inaccurate information.
So again, my thanks and appreciation for the substantive, thoughtful posts that have been submitted by most. I have 14 years of military service behind me and an additional 10 years as a police officer - but I came to you for advice because I recognize my knowledge shortfall with patrol carbines!
I'd like to think that I would remain positive and supportive of people who asked me the same basic questions in my area of expertise...
Understood and agreed. My comment was made out of ignorance towards your situation. Thank you for your service to our country and to your community. Stay safe and good luck.
I saw a wide variety. One or two had Colts, one guy had an LMT MRP, one guy had a Frankenbuild (I wouldn't recommend it), one guy had a BCM SBR (:D), I saw a DPMS, a Mini-14 and one or two Rathamsters. I honestly didn't look too hard because I don't want to get embroiled in conversations about their choices.
I would also check M4C's EE. There are some good deals there. ;)
Iraqgunz,
what makes & models do your fellow classmates favor?
Before becoming a full-time police officer, one of my many part time jobs was installing emergency equipment in police vehicles. I got to know a lot of police chiefs by doing this. I would always question their choice of patrol rifle when they brought one in to get a gun rack installed in their vehicles. From my experience, in my area, the majority of police chiefs purchase patrol rifles from what they see in advertisements and word of mouth from other police chiefs. If you ask a police chief what they would purchase for their department they will most likely say Bushmaster first and DPMS second. Why is this? Because police magazines litter the desks and tables in a police station. They are filled with adds from these two companies. It's all a marketing game. It has nothing to do with quality or how well the product will hold up. To the OP, I am in the same situation as you are right now with trying to get my command staff to listen to me about purchasing patrol rifles. A Colt 6920 is my first choice with getting a rifle right out of the box and putting them in service. It is looking like my boss is going to let me take control of our rifle purchase and I am hoping we end up with BCM Middy uppers and S&W lowers with Daniel Defense parts kits. These rifles will wear an Eotech EXPS2 and a Surefire G2 in a Vtac mount. The cost of two rifles are going to be roughly $3200.00. I hope this helps.
How many are you going to get if it happens? Sounds like you made a good compelling case and they are trusting your judgement.
Before becoming a full-time police officer, one of my many part time jobs was installing emergency equipment in police vehicles. I got to know a lot of police chiefs by doing this. I would always question their choice of patrol rifle when they brought one in to get a gun rack installed in their vehicles. From my experience, in my area, the majority of police chiefs purchase patrol rifles from what they see in advertisements and word of mouth from other police chiefs. If you ask a police chief what they would purchase for their department they will most likely say Bushmaster first and DPMS second. Why is this? Because police magazines litter the desks and tables in a police station. They are filled with adds from these two companies. It's all a marketing game. It has nothing to do with quality or how well the product will hold up. To the OP, I am in the same situation as you are right now with trying to get my command staff to listen to me about purchasing patrol rifles. A Colt 6920 is my first choice with getting a rifle right out of the box and putting them in service. It is looking like my boss is going to let me take control of our rifle purchase and I am hoping we end up with BCM Middy uppers and S&W lowers with Daniel Defense parts kits. These rifles will wear an Eotech EXPS2 and a Surefire G2 in a Vtac mount. The cost of two rifles are going to be roughly $3200.00. I hope this helps.
How many are you going to get if it happens? Sounds like you made a good compelling case and they are trusting your judgement.
We are getting two in this configuration. We are also getting three M-16s from the government. One of the M-16s will be converted into an 11.5 gun. The other two will get the BCM uppers and be converted to semi-auto. From my experience, the M-16s that most departments get from the government are the A-1 configuration.
Frankenbuild (I wouldn't recommend it)
Could you expand a bit on this. I have a couple guns that I consider Frankenbuilds that are reliable and I would run through a class. However I am pretty sure you mean something different than I do when you refer to a gun this way.
For instance one gun I have is a S&W lower, DD LPK, BCM barrel on an LMT upper with a Colt Bolt. Frankengun to be sure. But all reliable known parts. Were these just unknowns or something else?
kwelz...from my understanding, what you are describing is more a "custom" gun, than a frankengun. Normally that refers to an AR put together from bin parts, many of unknown origin or quality. I suppose others may have a different definition.
kwelz...from my understanding, what you are describing is more a "custom" gun, than a frankengun. Normally that refers to an AR put together from bin parts, many of unknown origin or quality. I suppose others may have a different definition.
You are probably correct. I have often used the two terms interchangeably when it comes to a gun I have built. Since it had been brought up it seemed as good a time to ask as any.
To the OP, I am in the same situation as you are right now with trying to get my command staff to listen to me about purchasing patrol rifles. A Colt 6920 is my first choice with getting a rifle right out of the box and putting them in service. It is looking like my boss is going to let me take control of our rifle purchase and I am hoping we end up with BCM Middy uppers and S&W lowers with Daniel Defense parts kits. These rifles will wear an Eotech EXPS2 and a Surefire G2 in a Vtac mount. The cost of two rifles are going to be roughly $3200.00. I hope this helps.
CoryCop25 - I appreciate your input. Question for you: If your first choice would be a Colt 6920, are you expecting your Chief to nix that because of cost? Is that why you're going with the other combination? $3200.00 for two rifles with the sight & light combo you mention seems like a decent price...
CoryCop25 - I appreciate your input. Question for you: If your first choice would be a Colt 6920, are you expecting your Chief to nix that because of cost? Is that why you're going with the other combination? $3200.00 for two rifles with the sight & light combo you mention seems like a decent price...
I don't think the chief is going to deny my request for the 6920. I explained to him that the other option would be the best choice and have a better quality weapon. I think I have proven my case. I have done a lot of research and due to the knowledge on this forum and my experience, I finally have the department convinced that I know what I'm talking about. Take in all you can from M4C like a SPONGE and you will see that you can prove your case and have what you need to back it all up.
jklaughrey
10-27-10, 08:57
You think that is bad, we carry our own if we choose to do so, otherwise it is a Colt A2, which is fine by me. But there is a small town that uses Keltec carbines in pistol caliber as their "rifle" option. Good thing we in the SO have them in our coverage area.
A lot of the departments in my area allow personally owned rifles. One of the biggest still allows Oly. There are a few that actually buy those, but fortunately not many. Unfortunately some of the departments don't allow the inexpensive, but high quality rifles yet. DD, BCM, and their officers don't often know the difference between an Oly or DPMS, and a Colt. So they get what's cheaper.
On the other hand one smaller PD is fortunate in that the guy that ordered their patrol rifles is a gun guy and did some research. He is purchasing BCM for his department. My only disappointment about this is that the store I work for doesn't carry BCM, so we weren't able to be the supplier. Purely selfish reason I know! Hopefully this will change though as a coworker and I hound the manager and owner into carrying their product.
As a business we do have to sell the stuff that people buy, even if that means stuff I'd rather not. If that makes me a snob then so be it. But I'll take the Colts, DD, LMT, Noveske, Knights, anyday over the other brands. I admit I have a Bushmaster, but it was my first one and I didn't know any better! It'll get an LMT bolt and carrier, and a DD trigger group eventually though.
I don't like parts that sometimes fit and sometimes don't into receivers that are held to tight tolerance. And by tolerance I mean the real meaning of it. Tight tolerance meaning held close to the design spec with very little variation, the + - being very small. When some triggers fit and others don't, from the same batch, and some safety detents and safeties don't work with with each other, it makes me tend to not like that product.
I don't think the chief is going to deny my request for the 6920. I explained to him that the other option would be the best choice and have a better quality weapon. I think I have proven my case. I have done a lot of research and due to the knowledge on this forum and my experience, I finally have the department convinced that I know what I'm talking about. Take in all you can from M4C like a SPONGE and you will see that you can prove your case and have what you need to back it all up.
Understood. I can certainly relate to your circumstances - the reason I joined this forum was to 'get educated' by a broad range of folks who can speak to their experiences (good and bad) with different products. My education continues!
You think that is bad, we carry our own if we choose to do so, otherwise it is a Colt A2, which is fine by me. But there is a small town that uses Keltec carbines in pistol caliber as their "rifle" option. Good thing we in the SO have them in our coverage area.
Anything in pistol caliber would be a nightmare for us - we operate mostly in rural areas and need a weapon that can 'reach out and touch someone' at ranges significantly in excess of 150m. I would seriously doubt the ability of pistol ammunition to stop the threat at that range...
Maybe we'll have the option of carrying self-purchased patrol rifles one day - I just don't see it in our near future.
jklaughrey
10-27-10, 15:45
Really I know our area is urban and rural. The town PD that carries the Keltec in .40 is small, but borders rural area all around. I have spoken to their chief numerous times since I live in this town, but work for the SO about upgrading. He seems more interested in new light bars and crosswalk signs. Well a dept of 5 people maybe don't need AR's when the SO is equipped and we have 30 deputies.
You think that is bad, we carry our own if we choose to do so, otherwise it is a Colt A2, which is fine by me.
What do you personally carry? If the Colt A2, are you happy with it? What ammunition do you use?
jklaughrey
10-27-10, 19:14
I don't carry the A2, I carry my own personal setup. I had been using my 6940, but wanted to go lighter so built a BCM LW Midlength with DD lower from Grant. Nice an light and smooth to shoot. It will be approved for service next week. I had to run some rounds through it first to satisfy my reliability needs. Ammo I usually have for it is the TAP ammo by Hornady which is dept issue in 60gr and 75gr. Although we are discussing about going to the Federal Tactical line. We just want to try it on next training cycle and see if it would be a better option.
Understood and agreed. My comment was made out of ignorance towards your situation. Thank you for your service to our country and to your community. Stay safe and good luck.
I appreciate your response! Thanks for helping fix my patrol rifle knowledge deficit.
I'm ex British Army, so we didn't carry the M16/M4 series - we had the FN 7.62mm SLR (the semi-auto version), the 9mm Sterling SMG, and eventually, the Enfield L85A2 (SA-80) 5.56 mm rifle.
British special forces (SAS, SBS etc.) get to choose whatever weapon they prefer -often it's a SOPMOD-based M4 with all the bells and whistles.
Thanks again.
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