View Full Version : CNBC special on Remington 700
montanadave
10-18-10, 10:00
I saw the teaser for this investigative report this AM. Before anyone goes off on me about CNBC, media anti-gun bias, etc., I'm only posting this because I imagine some folks might find it of interest. The investigative report apparently centers on product liability issues related to alleged trigger malfunctions with the Model 700 and the failure of Remington (in the eyes of those making the allegations) to adequately respond to the issue.
The special is scheduled to air Wednesday evening (October 20). Here's a link to the blurb on CNBC's website:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/39554936/
The older 700's (my 722 is still the same way) had to have the safety on fire to open the bolt...most of the disasters were due to the nut behind the butt & usually having a gloved finger inside the trigger guard when throwing the safety to clear the gun.
Most 700 triggers got worked over too & it is very easy to mess up the sear engaugement.
I have not heard of any recent problems...fact is if you don't sweep your hunting partners and mind your muzzle there would be no story.
Thank you for the heads up as this will be worth following.
NIB 700s going off when the bolt was closed was not unheard of in the late 1990s; no idea about current production guns.
M24s and M40 are extensively re-worked by service gunsmiths (not simple armorers) if that tells you anything. In other words, the Remington "factory specification" for M24s & M40s is not relied upon for weapons actually issued to qualified soldiers.
Not to be a cold asshole, but this comes down to gun safety, not faulty gear. If a rifle goes bang on it's own and not pointed at somebody, chances are nobody will get the bad end of the rifle.
Not to be a cold asshole, but this comes down to gun safety, not faulty gear. If a rifle goes bang on it's own and not pointed at somebody, chances are nobody will get the bad end of the rifle.
A rifle should not fire unless the trigger is pressed. A flaw in the gun (if present) shouldn't be dismissed just because one of the rules could mitigate its damage.
This story is starting to remind me of the Toyota drivers with "unintended acceleration."
It is hard to believe they are going to do a whole hour on it.
A rifle should not fire unless the trigger is pressed. A flaw in the gun (if present) shouldn't be dismissed just because one of the rules could mitigate its damage.
Not dismissing the failures, just pointing out the failures of the owners.
If you gun goes bang with out you pulling the trigger, the only consequence should be colorful words.
Not dismissing the failures, just pointing out the failures of the owners.
If you gun goes bang with out you pulling the trigger, the only consequence should be colorful words.
That depends. Keep in mind how far a rifle cartridge fires the projectile... You can follow the rules, "I didn't point it at anything (that I could see)" and still end up destroying something or someone that was not intended to be destroyed.
We're splitting hairs a bit but there is ZERO margin for error with a long gun. YOu can survive a hit with a pistol (not that you'd wish that) but you're more likely to bleed out before you get medical attention with a rifle or carbine.
Bobert0989
10-20-10, 05:44
That depends. Keep in mind how far a rifle cartridge fires the projectile... You can follow the rules, "I didn't point it at anything (that I could see)" and still end up destroying something or someone that was not intended to be destroyed.
The "didn't see it" line here reminded me of the tragic story several years ago here that involved an infant that was shot through the wall of his parents' trailer by a hunter several hundred feet away, that had no idea the trailer was even there. He was completely unaware that he had even shot in the direction of someone's home, but the path of the bullet placed it perfectly into the living room, killing the child.
Found article: Hunter shot 16-month old girl in chest from 400 feet away with .30 rifle in her GRANDPARENTS' mobile home. Ruled 2nd Degree Manslaughter http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2008/11/18/toddler-killed-by-hunters-stray-bullet/
I watched it, but almost turned in off in the first minute when the reporter, Scott Cohn, was holding a 700 at his side with his finger on the trigger.
But I am glad I watched the whole thing. There was some prettty damning evidence from Walker himself.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/39743024
Very damning IMO... And I went in expecting a MSM hatchet job I could just dismiss.
Very damning IMO... And I went in expecting a MSM hatchet job I could just dismiss.
CNBC is the primary business channel I watch. Although related to MSNBC, if anything, CNBC is right leaning.
montanadave
10-22-10, 09:17
I recorded the show and just got around to watching it this morning (too many baseball games in the evening).
Based on the information presented in the report, it seems pretty clear that Remington has known the trigger mechanism in the 700 was prone to malfunctions since almost the inception of the design but simply chose to ignore the evidence and proceed with the original design due to the increased costs associated with a redesign.
As reported, the actual unit cost for a redesign back when the 700 series was initially introduced would have amounted to less than six cents ($0.06) per unit. The estimated cost of a recall today to replace the trigger mechanism (assuming every Model 700 produced in the interim were returned and modified) approaches 300 million dollars.
So based on a strictly mercenary cost/benefit analysis, Remington has maintained an official position of denying any problem (despite an abundance of evidence to the contrary) while settling wrongful death and injury claims on a case by case basis with a nondisclosure clause attached to every settlement and no official admission of liability.
Remington's behavior makes perfect sense from a business model viewpoint, but from an ethical perspective, it stinks to high heaven.
It was not discussed in the report, but I wonder what Remington's response would be to a 700 owner who contacted the company and requested they modify their rifle with the newer X-Mark Pro trigger, which apparently incorporates a trigger block safety mechanism which mitigates the problem associated with the original trigger design.
Based on the information presented in the report, it seems pretty clear that Remington has known the trigger mechanism in the 700 was prone to malfunctions since almost the inception of the design but simply chose to ignore the evidence and proceed with the original design due to the increased costs associated with a redesign.
Yeah, that is what I got out of it also, but you should hear them screaming foul (most but not all) over on the Hide. One poster even went so far as to refer to the mother that accidently shoot her little boy as bitch. Truly disgusting!
Since I am trying to buy a 700 SPS or LTR I have been very interested in this situation that i had no idea existed. Here is a link to a law firm synopsis of the problems: http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php
Yeah, I know - it is a law firm with a vested interest but it is still interesting reading. It includes citations of cases which would be verifiable.
Looks like Remington has a few rebuttal clips here
http://www.remington700.tv/#/home
Looks like Remington has a few rebuttal clips here http://www.remington700.tv/#/home
If this wasn't all so tragic it would be laughable. Walker says he didn't tell them they sould come. Then Remington says he didn't invite them, which is technically true, but what Cohn said was "Thanks for inviting us in".
Maybe Walker didn't invite them over, but it sure looks like he invited them in when they got there, which he didn't have to do. And he never said on CNBC's or Remington's tape that he asked them to leave.
Walker is the key to this whole thing and Walker is on tape saying the original Walker trigger is flawed and that he tried to get Remington to fix it and they wouldn't. Shame on Remington for taking advantage of an old and honerable man.
I guess when the PR gets bad you just crank up your own PR. Based on the lawsuits they have settled and the bad PR now, I'll bet they wished they had fixed it way back when as Walker wanted to do.
A couple of things....
Obviously, you MUST keep your weapon pointed in a 'safe' direction when it is loaded.
AND...
You MUST keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
Never the less, it is interesting to here this story come again. Over 20 years ago the news show 20/20 did a similar story on Remington. Law suits should be a matter of public record. I wonder how many claims like this Remington has?
I wonder how many claims like this Remington has?
Jury Verdicts and Appellate Court Opinions of Remington’s Defective Fire Control (Source - http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php)
In Lewy v. Remington, 836 F.2d 1104, 1106-07 (8th Cir. 1988); the Eighth Circuit upheld a finding of punitive damages against Remington in 1985.
In Campbell v. Remington Arms Co., 1992 WL 54928 (9th Cir. 1992)(unpublished opinion); affirmed a jury verdict of $724,000 based on a fire on bolt closure, finding no error.
Later in 1992, the Texas Supreme Court, in Chapa v. Garcia, specifically describes Remington’s fire control as “defective.”
In 1994, a Texas jury rendered a verdict in Collins v. Remington after Glenn Collins lost this foot to a Model 700 accidental discharge. The jury found that the fire control was defective and awarded a $15 million in exemplary damages. The total verdict was in excess of $17 million.
The verdicts stopped with the Collins verdict. After that, Remington settled all claims. Instead of recalling or replacing the defective fire control, Remington has quietly paid almost $20 million to settle claims out of court, finally replacing the fire control only in 2007.
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