View Full Version : Need a Bolt gun for S.W.A.T. application
Palehorse08
10-19-10, 17:55
Hey guys I have been tasked with finding the bolt gun for my dept. SWAT team as I am the DM for the team. I am a USMC vet so I am partial to the M40a3 but want to see what others are using in the LEO/competition realm. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
Alot of people have told me that Savage makes a good rifle especially with their Accutrigger. I prefer a Rem 700 action with one of Rock Creeks M24 barrels.
22_Shooter
10-19-10, 19:34
Alot of people have told me that Savage makes a good rifle especially with their Accutrigger. I prefer a Rem 700 action with one of Rock Creeks M24 barrels.
My roommate's and his co-workers use the Rem700 on their SWAT team. They seem to like it.
How much do you want to spend?
I'm issued a Remington PSS/Leupold 3.5x10 and I have a Remington LTR with a similar scope. Both are good but I think I'd rather use the LTR on duty if I was allowed.
Palehorse08
10-19-10, 19:40
yea so far the plan is to build an m40a3 (Rem 700) but wanted to hear other thoughts/ideas. caliber can be anything but 5.56, even though I already have an SPR in that. They want "knock out" capabilities, but any true DM knows the 5.56 round has the capabilities of that.
Budget is undetermined, just have to get the team cmdr.'s blessing
How much do you want to spend?
I'm issued a Remington PSS/Leupold 3.5x10 and I have a Remington LTR with a similar scope. Both are good but I think I'd rather use the LTR on duty if I was allowed.
I've got $2k in my custom .308
.338 Lapua might be worth considering
For the military, the .338 gives the precision tactical marksman a significant effective range advantage over any .308 caliber rifle, while adding little to the weight burden that every field soldier must contend with. At closer ranges, especially those associated with Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) that characterize operations in Iraq; and for law enforcement, where engagement distances are almost never more than 100 yards, the .338 offers the precision marksman the capability to defeat targets that would resist any .308 bullet. For law enforcement, the .338 bears examination as an alternative to .50 caliber rifles because most organizations do not require the terminal ballistics of the .50 BMG cartridge, but exceed those of the traditional .308 for positive vehicle stops, defeating hard targets such as brick walls and other situations where the .308 isn’t sufficient, but where use of a .50 BMG rifle might be considered overkill and negatively viewed by civilians or the news media.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/desert-tactical-srs-338-lapua/
yea so far the plan is to build an m40a3 (Rem 700) but wanted to hear other thoughts/ideas. caliber can be anything but 5.56, even though I already have an SPR in that. They want "knock out" capabilities, but any true DM knows the 5.56 round has the capabilities of that.
Budget is undetermined, just have to get the team cmdr.'s blessing
Will you be running a can? If I was building a rifle, I would run a Bighorn Arms action, McMillan or Manners stock, Surgeon mag system, a Huber Concepts trigger (for obvious reasons), and a 20" Rock (or similar) 10 or 11.27 twist. I *might* roll Defiance should Bighorn not suit your liking.
While the above rifle sings, all else being equal, you'll not top an AIAE MKII at 20" with an Atlas bipod. Given the opportunity to start all over with I would run an AIAE and not ever look back.
Glass to your liking (and budget) of course, but the it'll be tough to top a Schmidt 4-16x50 mil/mil. P4 Fine reticle, of course. I might could slum a Nightforce F1 too:p.
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/DSC_1270.jpg
The ammo for a .338 Lapua costs too damn much to justify buying a rifle chambered in that caliber for any law enforcement agency other than FBI, DEA, ATF.
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/DSC_1270.jpg[/QUOTE]
Is that a BIG CHUBBY on the end of that barrel??
Palehorse08
10-19-10, 20:09
planning on running a surefire can, nightforce will probly be my glass of choice for price and reliability, plus most of our engagements will be at or within 150m so 10x40 should be easy enough on the eyes
but damn jpipes, that is a sweet kill-stick you have
That is someone elses that posted here. I was asking him if that was a BIG CHUBBY muzzle break on the end.
No personal experience but I hear good things about the FN line.
My build is a
Rem 700 action with oversized Badger Ordinance bolt knob
Rock Creek M24 barrel with 1:11.25 (5R)
Choate Ultimate Sniper stock
Barrel is threaded for a can with a thread protector
Teflon coated green to halfass match the OD green stock
Badger Ordinance 20 MOA scope base
Trigger is factory stock set at 2lbs. Feels lighter with the teflon coating
Currently saving my pennies for a Nightforce NXS
The surefire QD mount/brake is the obvious choice if you are running a surefire can. If you guys can swing a Surefire can in your budget, I'm hoping that a proper rifle can be built too, along with proper optics.
I am (emphatically) NOT a sniper, but a properly set-up bolt gun speaks to me. I built that rifle with tactical competitions in mind, and it is about perfect for my needs.
The "Big Chubby" is actually a Badger FTE, as I primarily run a can (SWR Omega 300). For thoses places that frown upon the NFA, I'm hoping that the brake is loud enough to get them to change their minds.
Good luck.
That is someone elses that posted here. I was asking him if that was a BIG CHUBBY muzzle break on the end.
I can guarantee you that it is most certainly my rifle.
.
The "Big Chubby" is actually a Badger FTE, as I primarily run a can (SWR Omega 300). For thoses places that frown upon the NFA, I'm hoping that the brake is loud enough to get them to change their minds.
Good luck.
LOL. I was considering an AAC Cyclone.
We use Tac Ops rifles (http://www.tacticaloperations.com/) at out department (X-Ray model).
For law enforcement use, a .308 will be the largest caliber you want to go due to over penetration. Most of your engagements will be under 200 yards, and .308 is plenty for that.
Gutshot John
10-19-10, 22:13
.338 has way too much ass for a SWAT application.
5.56 is probably sufficient in most cases but .308 is probably perfect as it will penetrate barriers nicely inside of 300 yards.
I'm not a big fan of the Savage accutrigger but that's a personal preference. A remmy 700 is probably the best all around choice for the least amount of money.
i know this isnt high dollar but would you interested in looking at the savage mod 10fcp hs precision? http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/finder/
ive heard they are a very good rifle and with everyone being on a budget today i thought this may be up your alley.
Bolt_Overide
10-20-10, 00:27
Id check out G.A. Precision if you can get your command to sign off on it. They build superb rifles, and they build M40 clones in several flavors.
Make sure the trigger is not to light and no homemade trigger jobs are done on it. I know of two instances to where that was done and it was ugly to say the least.
For an LE stick, seek an industry recommendation and have it set and documented.
Littlelebowski
10-20-10, 07:00
.338 Lapua might be worth considering
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/desert-tactical-srs-338-lapua/
You're kidding, right? Go read up on the history of LE sniper shoots.
I think "how much do you want to spend" is the question here. There are a lot of good rifles that can be had from a variety of companies.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Tikka/Sako rifles. You may want to look at a Sako TRG 22, or a Tikka T3 tactical (if on a budget).
Assuming a $5-6k budget for rifle and glass, GAP and Surgeon are my first choices. The GAP build for the FBI's HRT rifle is a work of art with a big institutional backing.
If your budget is a little less, you could go with a Sako TRG and do just fine.
Savage or a tuned R700 can be had for much less if your chief is cheap.
My team runs:
6 .308s,
2 .223 semiautos, (part time snipers-me), and
1, maybe soon to be 2, .338s
.308 is still a standard for LE sniper operations. The round has been around enough to develop good LE and defensive loadings, it can be fairly barrier blind, has enough effective range to cover the bulk of LE engagement distances, and the Rem700/M40 series actions are still quality. I have a 700PSS at home that is still far more accurate than I am; I have yet to fully stretch its legs.
The .338 fills niche roles. We can use it for heavy barrier penetration, HTI (vehicles), extended ranges, and for situations where the wind currents play havoc with the .308. We want 2 so we can cover 2 building corners, thus all 4 sides.
Dirk Williams
10-20-10, 17:20
Remington 308 police package with a stock trigger. Something that can be defended in court after a shooting.
Cuz after the shooting you ARE gonna go to court and don't want to explain to a jury why you have a special made killing machine.
D Williams
Belmont31R
10-20-10, 17:32
check out snipershide.com forums. They are much better suited to answer your question than you'll get here with answers like a 338LM for an LEO who doesn't know what to buy.
Whootsinator
10-20-10, 17:50
check out snipershide.com forums. They are much better suited to answer your question than you'll get here with answers like a 338LM for an LEO who doesn't know what to buy.
Agreed. I wouldn't go to Sniper's Hide for important M4 advice (because many of them rock RRAs and DPMS like they're the greatest rifles of all time), and I wouldn't come to M4C looking for long range bolt action advice.
Littlelebowski
10-20-10, 18:10
check out snipershide.com forums. They are much better suited to answer your question than you'll get here with answers like a 338LM for an LEO who doesn't know what to buy.
This and Dirk's response. And "training."
Remington 308 police package with a stock trigger. Something that can be defended in court after a shooting.
Cuz after the shooting you ARE gonna go to court and don't want to explain to a jury why you have a special made killing machine.
D Williams
^^^^
The Remington 700P in .308 is pretty much standard. It is basically a cheaper version of the M24 (short action, different barrel) but uses essentially the same H-S Precision Kevlar stock (minus the adjustable length of pull).
Rifle can be obtained for well under $1000 which should make your bean counters happy and free up some $$$ for the optics you are wanting.
For a old M40 gunner, you would be right at home.
Mine is easily a 3/4 MOA gun.
If I were an LE sniper I'd want as much optic as possible even to the extent of fewer features on the rifle*. I want to see inside that car in a high contrast situation. I want to see inside that room at dusk.
Does it almost always become overwatch? How often does a call out requiring a sniper result in a shot actually being taken?
* cuz we all know that budgets are always a factor
Littlelebowski
10-20-10, 20:04
Dang, Wisconsin sounds like dangerous country.
My team runs:
6 .308s,
2 .223 semiautos, (part time snipers-me), and
1, maybe soon to be 2, .338s
.308 is still a standard for LE sniper operations. The round has been around enough to develop good LE and defensive loadings, it can be fairly barrier blind, has enough effective range to cover the bulk of LE engagement distances, and the Rem700/M40 series actions are still quality. I have a 700PSS at home that is still far more accurate than I am; I have yet to fully stretch its legs.
The .338 fills niche roles. We can use it for heavy barrier penetration, HTI (vehicles), extended ranges, and for situations where the wind currents play havoc with the .308. We want 2 so we can cover 2 building corners, thus all 4 sides.
A more rural dept perhaps? With a lot of green to cover? lol
Me?
No, we're just very sniper heavy, with a big team, for better or worse.
PM to Lebowski, but for everyone's benefit, that loadout is for a 250K population, with redundancy and absenteeism built in. We also had some incidents involving our parks, where we wanted more long rifle coverage.
Sniper central.com is about the best long range forum there is. Friendly and knowledgable.
Look at the FN SPR rifles too. I am a remington man, but FN makes some nice sticks. I would go with a remington police for liability reasons, and have it tuned up a bit, but NO TRIGGER WORK!
And it just about has to be 308 for the specialty ammo.
Palehorse08
10-21-10, 10:21
I appreciate everyones input. I have decided on the M40a3 from G.A. since this is what I shot in combat 90% of the time. As for glass... that has been decided but for opsec reasons i cant say what we went with, dont want the turds knowing what i can and cant do. I am mostly used as an observer, as is the role for snipers, but if a shot needs to be taken I have full confidence in this rifle and my skill.
Thanks again!
I know you said you made your choice but have you thought about Accuracy Int.
A local south florida team has them in .308 and they are happy with them.
Mission drives the gear train and I don't know what environment you're in but you might also consider in getting 1 or 2 heavier systems like a 338 or a 50. Having one sitting in the team room and getting a few of your guys trained on them is a good just in case option. You never know if you might need to disable a vehicle or really reach out and touch someone.
R.
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