A few Q's before I buy...

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Im about to purchase an upper and complete my build, but I had a few questions first.

Ive narrowed it down to DD, thats a no brainer for me. This rifle will be a GP build, used for hunting small game out to 300-400yds, used for home defense, and used as a ranch rifle which means it will be in my truck quite a bit. I would also like it be light weight.

Gas system: Mid length seems to be all the rage, but is it really going to help me out that much? Its only a $25 difference for me, but Id rather not spend extra if I dont have too. For a guy that will shoot 200-300rds a month, is the mid length worth it.

Barrel length: Ive used an M4 in the Marine Corps for a few years as well as an M16A4, both shot well out to 500 yds. Will I get any noticable accuracy and velocity boosts from a 16" over a 14.5"?

Barrel Profile: Im pretty much set on Gov. but the lightweight is piquing my interest right now. Is the light weight barrel really going to affect accuracy after 100-200rds?

How many of you out there use a 16" Carbine for hunting/HD?

Thanks for helping out guys, heres my build so far:
Spikes Lower
Magpul MOE trigger guard and grip.
DPMS LPK (Iknow I know)
Magpul ACS stock
Larue BUIS

[Joeywhat]

My thoughts and opinions:

1) A properly setup carbine length runs fine. That being said I prefer mid length...anything I can do to decrease problems is good for me. I've yet to see/hear/read anything saying that mid lengths are worse then carbine lengths.

2) I guess it depends on your definition of 'noticeable'. There will certainly be velocity differences. Will that matter? Depends on the range, what the bullet needs to do at that range, and the bullet itself.

3) How many rounds are you going to shoot at once? And will you be shooting this much at distance? I run a lightweight barrel on my current AR, and notice no discernable loss of accuracy at 100 yards with a hot barrel. When I REALLY run it hard I've shot it out to 50 yards, again still hits on human size targets. This is like can't touch the handguard type hot. So it really depends on the accuracy you require, the range you'll be shooting, and just how hot the barrel will get. If it has a chance to cool down for a bit between strings of fire, I see no issue. The ONLY time I've shot enough at once to heat things up a lot was in a carbine class. Don't do it at competition, and while I don't varmint hunt with it, I can't imagine shooting it that much there, either.

I run a 14.5" middy for home defense. Started life as a 16", I prefer the slightly shorter barrel. I don't do a lot of long range shooting, and if I do I don't require superb accuracy...so YMMV.

[ForTehNguyen]

mid length is worth it for the extra handguard length alone, not to mention its other advantages over a carbine gas system. I think the velocity difference b/t 14.5 and 16" was 200 fps or so out of 2900?

[Failure2Stop]

Gas system: Mid length seems to be all the rage, but is it really going to help me out that much? Its only a $25 difference for me, but Id rather not spend extra if I dont have too. For a guy that will shoot 200-300rds a month, is the mid length worth it.

Remember who the midlengths are all the rage for. It isn't the guy that buys a BM or Oly off the shelf at the recommendation of the mullet-bearing mouth breather behind the counter. Most of us are dedicated and experienced users that appreciate the lower bolt velocity, smoother feeding, reduced extraction issues, extended HGs (not limited to middies), and reduced recoil impulse. To me, it's well worth it. It won't make a poor shooter into a great shooter, but it is an appreciable change that an experienced shooter will appreciate.



Barrel length: Ive used an M4 in the Marine Corps for a few years as well as an M16A4, both shot well out to 500 yds. Will I get any noticable accuracy and velocity boosts from a 16" over a 14.5"?

The velocity increase between a 14.5 inch and 16 inch barrel with most ammunition will be in the same general area as the increase when going from a 16 to 18 inch barrel. Generally though, the increase in velocity will extend the fragmentation range of most 5.56 ammo to cover the most applicable combat distances. One of the biggest issues with going with a 14.5 is that you will either need to go the NFA route and register the lower, or will have to permanently attach a muzzle device with a pin and weld job. This makes some maintenance impossible and limits your HG choices, especially if you want to take them off for cleaning or replacement.

The greatest performance upgrades for precision will be in proper optic selection, high quality ammunition, purpose built barrel, and improved trigger. Barrel length itself has no affect on precision. Wind drift and drop will be reduced with a higher velocity (or a higher BC), but at anything past 200 on a target smaller than a torso the drop and windage will require a distinct alteration in hold anyway, 2" of difference in where you hold for a 10mph cross-wind at 500 meters isn't anything that is really going to affect you.



Barrel Profile: Im pretty much set on Gov. but the lightweight is piquing my interest right now. Is the light weight barrel really going to affect accuracy after 100-200rds?

Gov profile unncessarily reduces precision potential due to the 203 cut. There are many other optiions that weigh the same or similar, but without the 203 cut, which makes them balance better, and have a better precision potential. Lightweight barrel are nice, but require high quality materials, precision machining, and proper heat-treatment to prevent POI shift during firing. Some people like forward weight, some don't. You might want to swing one around a little before deciding.



How many of you out there use a 16" Carbine for hunting/HD?


My 16s are GP guns. Some are a little specialized, but really more due to optic than anything else. There isn't much that other barrel lengths bring to the table unless you only clear ships or only shoot over 300 meters.

[Doc Safari]

I decided on the carbine length to keep the weight down. After many years of owning M1A's, AK's, SKS's, FN FAL's, and HK's, I finally appreciate the lightness of the M4 style. I'm even thinking of getting the pencil-barrel Colt LE carbine next spring. Although I see the value of the mid-length system, for me it just makes more sense to take advantage of the carbine's inherent light weight and not bolt a bunch of stuff to it. It's just my preference, but I like the weight and balance of the carbine length.

BTW: since you chose DD I'll say that I got up before sunrise this morning to take my new DD XV carbine to the range. It started to get a little windy so I was more interested in a function check and didn't shoot much beyond 25-30 yards. The sights were dead nuts-on right out of the box. I'll probably have to tweak the elevation to get the zero I want, but I was surprised to be hitting plinker targets with acceptable accuracy without having to touch the sights. The gun worked fine, too.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Thanks for the helpful info guys. In your humble opinions, is a Cold Hammer Forged barrel worth an extra $100? Im not worried about .5MOA accuracy, I just want a solid barrel with a good long life, but if CHF is not worth is then why pay?

[BlueOvalFan]

Thanks for the helpful info guys. In your humble opinions, is a Cold Hammer Forged barrel worth an extra $100? Im not worried about .5MOA accuracy, I just want a solid barrel with a good long life, but if CHF is not worth is then why pay?
With out a doublt a HF Chromelined barrel will most likely outlast you. Throw in specs like Noveske's M249 machingun steel coupled with their thicker chromelining and proprietary polygonal rifling and you have the gold standard for a fighting barrel.

I think Centurion Arms comes in second with the same M249 machingun steel, also has the thicker chromelining and proprietary tapper bore.

And obviously, DD and BCM are nothing to turn your nose up to.

So yea...it's worth it. You'll have a accurate barrel with great longevity. Best of both worlds.

[Failure2Stop]

I decided on the carbine length to keep the weight down.

The extra gas-tube length's added weight is about the same as putting 2 quarters and a nickel in your pocket.

Given that most shooters prefer to have longer rails on their carbines anyway, the weight of the extra tube tube is pretty much irrelevant.


Thanks for the helpful info guys. In your humble opinions, is a Cold Hammer Forged barrel worth an extra $100? Im not worried about .5MOA accuracy, I just want a solid barrel with a good long life, but if CHF is not worth is then why pay?

It all depends on who it is that is making the barrel.
If you are talking about BCM, I have not seen a problem with their standard barrel yet, however my last purchase from them was a BFH as the $100 is worth it to me if it extends service life by a few thousand rounds.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

With out a doublt a HF Chromelined barrel will most likely outlast you. Throw in specs like Noveske's M249 machingun steel coupled with their thicker chromelining and proprietary polygonal rifling and you have the gold standard for a fighting barrel.

I think Centurion Arms comes in second with the same M249 machingun steel, also has the thicker chromelining and proprietary tapper bore.

And obviously, DD and BCM are nothing to turn your nose up to.

So yea...it's worth it. You'll have a accurate barrel with great longevity. Best of both worlds.

Thanks, but as far as I can tell, a guy like me who plinks, hunts, and on about twice a year puts his rifle through the paces probably does not need a CHF barrel, especially when that extra $100 can be put into ammo.

And Dan Daly retired as a Sgt Maj.

[BlueOvalFan]

Thanks, but as far as I can tell, a guy like me who plinks, hunts, and on about twice a year puts his rifle through the paces probably does not need a CHF barrel, especially when that extra $100 can be put into ammo.

And Dan Daly retired as a Sgt Maj.

Anytime you put your life behind a weapon (as you indicated) that automatically makes me reach for the best--is your life and that of your families worth anything less. Not preaching, just saying...

And Dan Daly retired as a Sgt Maj.
I believe that was his rank at the time of the quote.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

It all depends on who it is that is making the barrel.
If you are talking about BCM, I have not seen a problem with their standard barrel yet, however my last purchase from them was a BFH as the $100 is worth it to me if it extends service life by a few thousand rounds.
I was in fact referring to the BCM barrel line, but trying to be vague as to not let this turn into another "Which should I buy?" thread. Im glad youve experienced good results out of the BCM standard, I certainly have quite a bit to think about now and am by no means "ready to buy".



Anytime you put your life behind a weapon (as you indicated) that automatically makes me reach for the best--is your life and that of your families worth anything less. Not preaching, just saying...


I hear what you're saying, and I do agree with the "Buy once, Cry once. Buy cheap, buy twice." I suppose I need to do a little more research as on aisle claims that Chrome Lined barrels are all you need, while the other side of the aisle says cold hammer forged is mandatory.

[Iraqgunz]

My one suggestion would be to ditch the DPMS parts kit. Get a GandR Tactical one if possible.


Thanks, but as far as I can tell, a guy like me who plinks, hunts, and on about twice a year puts his rifle through the paces probably does not need a CHF barrel, especially when that extra $100 can be put into ammo.

And Dan Daly retired as a Sgt Maj.

[BlueOvalFan]

My one suggestion would be to ditch the DPMS parts kit. Get a GandR Tactical one if possible.

I second that and maybe a DD LPK as a close second. I've used G&R, DD and RRA. I can say I like the RRA the least.

[Caeser25]

I'll third the G&R LPK, one of the better stock triggers in a lpk.

[peabody]

i like my A4 clone for a ranch/rifle/tractor/weapon.
love the rifle length gas system, and lots of handguard.

peabody

[500grains]

Thanks for the helpful info guys. In your humble opinions, is a Cold Hammer Forged barrel worth an extra $100?

YEs!! The steel is harder and will last a bit longer (double? I don't know).

Is cold hammer forged M249 barrel steel with double thick chrome lining worth another $100 beyond that?

YESSSS!!!!

www.centurionarms.com

www.noveskerifleworks.com

That being said, a guy needs to draw the line somewhere. But we are not talking a huge amount of money here. Not like the different between an $1800 Nightforce and a $4500 Schimdt & Bender.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Ok, well, taking what youve all said into consideration I think I MAY go with the BCM 16" Midlength CHF. Its only 100 more, so the wife probably wont notice. I was originally going to go with the smartgunner.com deal on the DD uppers, but honestly that would be 9" of rail that would most likely never see use. As this will mainly be a ranch type of rifle, I think the MOE handguards and Nikon M223 1-4 or Leupold Mk AR 1-4 should finish this carbine quite nicely.

[djegators]

Ok, well, taking what youve all said into consideration I think I MAY go with the BCM 16" Midlength CHF. Its only 100 more, so the wife probably wont notice. I was originally going to go with the smartgunner.com deal on the DD uppers, but honestly that would be 9" of rail that would most likely never see use. As this will mainly be a ranch type of rifle, I think the MOE handguards and Nikon M223 1-4 or Leupold Mk AR 1-4 should finish this carbine quite nicely.

Smart gunner has a deal on DD upper without rails or hand guards as well. I don't think it is listed on his site however.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Bit the bullet today. BCM 16"Middy with CHF BBL. Thanks alot for the info.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Good choice.

A little advice, ditch a DPMS LPK, go with G&R if you can, for LMT.

I use LMT LPKs as a spare parts kit.

I've heard of a lot of issues with DPMS LPKs, triggers breaking, etc.

That said, I have seen personally two DPMS LPKs where the hammer cracked within the 2k round mark.

One happened to a guy at the range, one happened to my boss.

And I'm positive that it isn't MilSpec.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Good choice.

A little advice, ditch a DPMS LPK, go with G&R if you can, for LMT.

I use LMT LPKs as a spare parts kit.

I've heard of a lot of issues with DPMS LPKs, triggers breaking, etc.

That said, I have seen personally two DPMS LPKs where the hammer cracked within the 2k round mark.

One happened to a guy at the range, one happened to my boss.

And I'm positive that it isn't MilSpec.

I do know that the DPMS LPK had out of spec roll pin, had to buy extras from the local gun shop. In your opinion, would a new trigger be all that is needed or would I need to completely dissasemble and put a new LPK in? I have plans for a G SSA trigger, but I dont want a completely new LPK.

[kilroymcb]

16" barrel for 3-400 yards HUNTING... hmmm... I'd go with as much barrel as I could get for that distance.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I do know that the DPMS LPK had out of spec roll pin, had to buy extras from the local gun shop. In your opinion, would a new trigger be all that is needed or would I need to completely dissasemble and put a new LPK in? I have plans for a G SSA trigger, but I dont want a completely new LPK.

You'd be better off asking somebody like F2S, or Rob_s that question.

But sense you asked me: I'd just go with a new trigger and be done with it.

Replace parts when needed. Maybe replace receiver extension, if it's commercial.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

16" barrel for 3-400 yards HUNTING... hmmm... I'd go with as much barrel as I could get for that distance.

Ive never shot a creature, be it 2 or 4 legged, at distances of over 100yds, MAYBE a rare prairie dog at 150yds with my .17HMR, but if it was that distance Id be surprised. I just want enough in case I cant bring that 'yote in any closer.


You'd be better off asking somebody like F2S, or Rob_s that question.

But sense you asked me: I'd just go with a new trigger and be done with it.

Replace parts when needed. Maybe replace receiver extension, if it's commercial.

No, reciever extension is Magpul Milspec. The only reason I used the DPMS LPK is because it was free:laugh:. My 6920 Spikes build has a DD LPK, but that one has been adopted by my brother in Colorado after he had a "break in".

[payj]

Little late, but mid I like the mid-length system. Also fyi my mid weights less than my carbine. Its all in how it is set up as far as weight goes.