View Full Version : "Affordable" battery less red dots
Like the Trijicon Reflex and the Meprolight 21 but I wonder is there is a less expensive still reliable unit? I am getting set up a 223 handgun as a bedside solution and want something that will work, day or night and that there will be no turning on of a switch required.
One that I could set on a 30mm ARMS mount would be awesome.
Alaskapopo
10-26-10, 01:17
Like the Trijicon Reflex and the Meprolight 21 but I wonder is there is a less expensive still reliable unit? I am getting set up a 223 handgun as a bedside solution and want something that will work, day or night and that there will be no turning on of a switch required.
One that I could set on a 30mm ARMS mount would be awesome.
I am not aware of any less expensive units. Also are you sure you want a .223 pistol for home defense. They are loud and have greatly diminished terminal performance due to their short barrels. A standard carbine would be a better idea or a normal handgun. (9mm, 40sw, 45 acp etc)
Pat
Get a good SBR and suppressor or use a handgun. An AR pistol is a gadget and I guarantee if you fire it indoors you will never want to do so again.
Like the Trijicon Reflex and the Meprolight 21 but I wonder is there is a less expensive still reliable unit? I am getting set up a 223 handgun as a bedside solution and want something that will work, day or night and that there will be no turning on of a switch required.
One that I could set on a 30mm ARMS mount would be awesome.
Failure2Stop
10-26-10, 04:13
An AR pistol is a terrible choice for intimate-distance protection.
The low muzzle velocity will cause the bullets to demonstrate higher penetration depths.
Since virtually all 5.56 wounding effects beyond puncture are velocity related, the wound profile will be more similar to .22 WMR than the normal wound profile of military weapons.
Pistol length ARs are notoriously finicky and prone to function problems.
Pistol ARs are manipulated like full size ARs, which are way more difficult to clear stoppages, reload, and work with one-handed than traditional" pistols, even if they have ambi controls.
With a pistol length AR, muzzle flash is dramatic, and the blast is deafening.
You cannot grip an AR pistol like you can grip a "real" handgun, which reduces effectiveness at all sorts of gunhandling skills, from press-out to multiple shot string control.
It is extremely difficult to mount a light that can be operated with one hand on an AR pistol, unlike the plethora of options with real pistols.
Here's what it boils down to: compared to a traditional, quality pistol, the pistol AR will be less effective, harder to control, require MORE shots to have the same wound reaction, be more difficult to get those bullets into the desired areas, require two hands to do so, and blind and deafen you while you are doing it.
Pistol ARs are toys.
As far as optics go: the ones you mention are not considered by many to be acceptable for combat use. They don't get better when they get cheaper.
You obviously haven't seen Clear and Present Danger. AR pistols are totally cool and you can blast guys out of helicopters with them.
An AR pistol is a terrible choice for intimate-distance protection.
The low muzzle velocity will cause the bullets to demonstrate higher penetration depths.
Since virtually all 5.56 wounding effects beyond puncture are velocity related, the wound profile will be more similar to .22 WMR than the normal wound profile of military weapons.
Pistol length ARs are notoriously finicky and prone to function problems.
Pistol ARs are manipulated like full size ARs, which are way more difficult to clear stoppages, reload, and work with one-handed than traditional" pistols, even if they have ambi controls.
With a pistol length AR, muzzle flash is dramatic, and the blast is deafening.
You cannot grip an AR pistol like you can grip a "real" handgun, which reduces effectiveness at all sorts of gunhandling skills, from press-out to multiple shot string control.
It is extremely difficult to mount a light that can be operated with one hand on an AR pistol, unlike the plethora of options with real pistols.
Here's what it boils down to: compared to a traditional, quality pistol, the pistol AR will be less effective, harder to control, require MORE shots to have the same wound reaction, be more difficult to get those bullets into the desired areas, require two hands to do so, and blind and deafen you while you are doing it.
Pistol ARs are toys.
As far as optics go: the ones you mention are not considered by many to be acceptable for combat use. They don't get better when they get cheaper.
lethal dose
10-27-10, 00:38
You obviously haven't seen Clear and Present Danger. AR pistols are totally cool and you can blast guys out of helicopters with them.
HAHA! Wow. You just went there, didn't you? To reinforce what's been said in the thread... what has been said is true. If you want to use an ar for HD, do not go the pistol route. SBR supressed if possible.
vicious_cb
10-27-10, 00:45
I dont see the obsession with battery-less optics.
Alaskapopo
10-27-10, 00:57
I dont see the obsession with battery-less optics.
Duh that for when we get hit with an EMP. Come on man keep up.:sarcastic:
Pat
I dont see the obsession with battery-less optics.
Pretty obvious; they don't run on batteries; they can stay on, so you don't have to turn them on. That's the theory at least.
However, that's only one definition of reliable.
Having said that, compared to quality battery operated red dots, they're far from ideal. My experience is that non-powered red dots seem to be more subject to the vagaries of various lighting conditions, and often have less than ideally shaped reticles.
For the OP, I suggest that you consider just going with a red dot like the Aimpoints or one of the newer EOTechs.
Alaskapopo
10-27-10, 23:43
Pretty obvious; they don't run on batteries; they can stay on, so you don't have to turn them on. That's the theory at least.
However, that's only one definition of reliable.
Having said that, compared to quality battery operated red dots, they're far from ideal. My experience is that non-powered red dots seem to be more subject to the vagaries of various lighting conditions, and often have less than ideally shaped reticles.
For the OP, I suggest that you consider just going with a red dot like the Aimpoints or one of the newer EOTechs.
With Aimpoints you can also leave them on and change the batteries every 5 years or so. So the you don't have to turn the sight argument is a bit weak.
Pat
What Pat said.
Just swap the batteries at about the same time that you swap the batteries in your smoke alarm.
I am not aware of any less expensive units. Also are you sure you want a .223 pistol for home defense. They are loud and have greatly diminished terminal performance due to their short barrels. A standard carbine would be a better idea or a normal handgun. (9mm, 40sw, 45 acp etc)
Pat
Thanks for making me aware of the short comings of the "battery-less" red dots, I am now staying far away from those,
the Aimpoint seems to be a wise option for home defense, no clue the batteries lasted that long!
I will take in consideration the comments regarding the use of an AR handgun for home defense but same thing was said of the 5.7x28 cartridge's terminal performance, the guy that murdered all those folks at Ft. Hood used a FN57 handgun, absolutely for 300 yard shots a 7.5" barrel is not the right choice but that is not the case here, distances inside my home are at a maximum 15 yards so I think the 223 handgun can do the job. Mine has never jammed, still the first thing I grab in the middle of the night is a "satchel" with a 357 revolver, flashlight and speed loaders for the revolver, then the phone, The AR handgun last.
Regarding over-penetration, all the walls in my house are made of concrete.
Regarding noise the most recommended home defense weapon is a 12 gauge, those are kinda noisy, in a SHTF scenario noise and muzzle blast are gonna be the last thing you are gonna worry about, here using a rifle in a self defense situation will get you in a heap of legal problem regardless the situation, a handgun is fine.
I've seen "Clear and Present Danger" - movies have no bearing on my gun choices for real world use.
Just checked this out:
The velocity of a 22WMR from a handgun is about 1400 FPS, the velocity of a 223 from an AR handgun is around 2600 FPS.
I shoot my AR handgun 2 handed as any other handgun, is there another way to do so?
Failure2Stop
10-28-10, 13:12
How you choose to defend your home is up to you.
Good luck.
If you want to learn more about the topic, feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate sub-forum to avoid cluttering this one. If you don't, don't.
You obviously haven't seen Clear and Present Danger. AR pistols are totally cool and you can blast guys out of helicopters with them.
Of course that pistol AR could blast people out of helicopters! It's an Oly! :rolleyes:
Regarding noise the most recommended home defense weapon is a 12 gauge, those are kinda noisy, in a SHTF scenario noise and muzzle blast are gonna be the last thing you are gonna worry about, here using a rifle in a self defense situation will get you in a heap of legal problem regardless the situation, a handgun is fine.
Where is "here"?
I've seen "Clear and Present Danger" - movies have no bearing on my gun choices for real world use.
That was what's called a joke.
Just checked this out:
The velocity of a 22WMR from a handgun is about 1400 FPS, the velocity of a 223 from an AR handgun is around 2600 FPS.
I shoot my AR handgun 2 handed as any other handgun, is there another way to do so?
Whoo. MV is only one consideration among many when it comes to comparing calibers and ammo selection thereof, especially if you're going with an orange/tangerine side-by-side like that.
The second: Put a stock on it and shoot it the way a carbine design is meant to be employed. (That, too, is a joke, or at least friendly ribbing.)
Trijicon makes the RMR is a tritium/fiber-optic setup; no batteries, but the things are in the $400-600 range, depending upon variant. They come in 7, 9, and 13MOA dots of amber or red. I don't know of anything of lesser expense that doesn't take a battery of some sort.
I do not believe that dog hunts...
If you are hell bent on a "pistol" then use a pistol. The RMR or Delta Point on a Glock might be a good play for you... Only down side is that you will need to go through the awful chore of changing your battery annually...
Where is "here"?
Puerto Rico
That was what's called a joke.
I know...
Alaskapopo
10-29-10, 00:56
Just checked this out:
The velocity of a 22WMR from a handgun is about 1400 FPS, the velocity of a 223 from an AR handgun is around 2600 FPS.
I shoot my AR handgun 2 handed as any other handgun, is there another way to do so?
From a 10 inch pistol your velocity will not be that high and even less from a 7.5 inch one. I imagine you will get 2300 fps from a 10 inch gun.
Pat
I wasn't gonna touch that, but since we're there, now...
Our chronos put Mk262 @ around 2650-2680 out of a 1-in-7" barrel that's 14.5" in length.
So, yeah, out of a 7.5" gun...? Maybe if it were a 7gr bullet....
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3531/signlanguagebullshit.jpg
Alaskapopo
10-29-10, 01:39
I wasn't gonna touch that, but since we're there, now...
Our chronos put Mk262 @ around 2650-2680 out of a 1-in-7" barrel that's 14.5" in length.
So, yeah, out of a 7.5" gun...? Maybe if it were a 7gr bullet....
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3531/signlanguagebullshit.jpg
The 5.56 version of Horndays 75 grain tap is going 2560 in my 14.5 inch Noveske.
Pat
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.