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what are your opinions on the kx3? Do they work? Are they worth the money? What are the benefits?
Robb Jensen
08-01-06, 20:36
what are your opinions on the kx3? Do they work? Are they worth the money? What are the benefits?
Over 7K fail free rounds have gone through my SBR with it.
It sends a little more gas through short barreled uppers.
Barrels shorter than 14.5" sometimes don't have enough gas in the system long enough time to pressurize the gas system to work reliably.
The KXe also cuts down on the concussion that the shooter and person(s) to the side of the shooter usually receive. It makes the sound move directly at the target. Essentially it's a 1 chamber sound suppressor but currently it's classified as a flash suppressor by BATF. Rifles 14.5" and larger don't really need one.
The KX3 or "Krink" definitely helps tame the muzzle blast of SBRs.
Can you get one without the pig???:confused:
Can you get one without the pig???:confused:
You don't like the pig! I bet if you knew who asked for it to be put on there you might change your mind. :D
C4
Can you get one without the pig???:confused:
It comes with or without the pig. I like the pig. I also eat pork on occasion.
You don't like the pig! I bet if you knew who asked for it to be put on there you might change your mind. :D
It's cool, but everyon else has one with the pig. I want one without the pig.
A contrarian, if you will.:cool:
Pat_Rogers
08-03-06, 18:03
I was fortunate that i got one in March of 04. I was extremely sceptical at first, until we started running through the shoot house.
Two things became immediately evident. While some short barreled guns can become testy under certain circumstances or with some ammo, they all ran fine. The other was that i didn't have a headache after the shoothouse runs.
We spent a lot more time with them after that, and the latest iteration- Pig abnd all- are much better then the first.
The advantages of tricking the gun into thinking the barrel was longer (something i wish i could do...) enhances reliability in some guns, and projecting the muzzle blast out farther made life easier all the way around.
Note: You still need earpro!
It is a good thing, but useful primarily on the 10.5-12.5" guns.
Rmplstlskn
08-04-06, 10:12
How well does it function as a FLASH suppressor?
Rmpl
Well. I was one of the biggest skeptics. I mean, who wants this big, heavy thing on their barrel if it isn't a sound suppressor? I'll probably never use one extensively. They don't fit my needs. Either I need a suppressed SBR, or I need a carbine--nothing in between at this point--and if I did, well... But it definitely does what it is supposed to do.
How well does it function as a FLASH suppressor?
Rmpl
Better than an A2. Silvers did a test...
AR15barrels
08-04-06, 11:21
You don't like the pig! I bet if you knew who asked for it to be put on there you might change your mind. :D
OK, I'll bite...
Did YOU ask for the flaming pig to be put on there?
Robb Jensen
08-04-06, 11:56
Hey,
Happy to see you joined over here Randall!
Robb
Better than an A2. Silvers did a test...
At a night training session recently I got to see the Noveske in action...
It reduced the flash, but it also projected the flash outward from the muzzle about 1'. The flash that was present APPEARED a lot heavier/brighter than Vortex and Phantoms on the line shooting next to it....
I would say that the visual signature is "noticeable" from a distance, though I am not an expert in such matters.
I am pursuing one for noise attenuation purposes, not flash suppression.
I would say that for the intended purpose (shooting indoors) flash inline with the bullet path is a non-issue most of the time for many and certainly all of the time for the vast majority of users.
At a night training session recently I got to see the Noveske in action...
It reduced the flash, but it also projected the flash outward from the muzzle about 1'. The flash that was present APPEARED a lot heavier/brighter than Vortex and Phantoms on the line shooting next to it....
I would say that the visual signature is "noticeable" from a distance, though I am not an expert in such matters.
I am pursuing one for noise attenuation purposes, not flash suppression.
Yes, Silvers' test showed it was much bigger than a Vortex or Phantom but I was surprised to see that it wasn't just a huge fireball. The A2 made the fireball...
ETA: I think an outward "stretching" of the flash is much better than allowing the flash to expand outwards. Picture looking almost straight at someone firing a rifle. No matter how far out the flash extends, it appears as a round flash. It may be more intense but it definitely wouldn't have the large diameter that a fireball from a FS that extends the flash outwards would have... The outward expanding flash is what will create a larger profile for someone to spot you I suppose...
Pat_Rogers
08-04-06, 14:18
The amount of flash is sometimes related to how clean/ dirty the Krink is. We had the oppurtunity to run some at night in F/A, and it looked like a sparkler. Having said that, there was a lot of crap inside the Krink, and the speculation was some of it was heading downrange.
Also understand that certain brands/ lots of ammo may increase/ decrease flash, regardless of what you have on the end of your stick.
Remember that there are several target indicators, and your movement may be the biggest one.
The KX is not what i would put on the end of a sniper rifle, DMR, SPR or the like.
Like Shivan and burrito, flash suppression is not why i use the KX3.
I currently run a KX3 on one of my rigs. Im using it to shoot a video for the predator hunting crowd. I have used it at night, and the flash does seem to come directly out between 1-2 inches but for hunting purposes it was fine for me, also made for some great footage for the vid.
As an aside, US Optics is one of my sponsors, the video should be up on their website by this sept.
QuietShootr
08-06-06, 10:06
Does anyone notice any real difference between the original KFH and the KX3? I've been running a couple of KFHs for over a year now and love 'em.
Robb Jensen
08-06-06, 10:14
Does anyone notice any real difference between the original KFH and the KX3? I've been running a couple of KFHs for over a year now and love 'em.
Just weight and looks. The real early KFHs had the removeable cone made out of a different material and it would errode fairly quickly.
AR15barrels
08-06-06, 11:30
I think it's mainly the weight.
John seems to have discontinued the KFH, or at least he has pulled it from his website.
From looking at both of them, the KX3 is less expensive to make, so it's a given that you would only produce something that's lighter AND less complex to make.
QuietShootr
08-07-06, 06:45
Oh, well. I have four of the KFHs in the safe, so I guess I won't need any KX3s for a while. After seeing one disassembled, I was sure the ATF was going to make them Class 3. Win a few, lose a few....
Ned Christiansen
08-08-06, 22:13
The short barrels may benefit more from the KX3 just 'cause they're louder to start with, but doing side by side noise comparos using 16" barrels, the dif is still worth having just from the standpoint of saving your hearing if you, for example, have to jump out of a squad car and start blazin'.
The KFH is totally discontinued and superceeded by the KX3.
I've done night shooting flash suppression comparos twice using the KX3, Phantom, A1 and A2 bircages, the Vortex and what I tongue-in-cheek call the Vortex "K", my personal one that'sbeen shortened about 5/16". The Vortex is the flash hiding king, always. The others are usually pretty even for second, including the KX3. But two tests don't really tell enough, especially since test one showed the Phantom working darn good and in test two not very good at all. All tests were with XM193 and the results were judged by a brave :eek: downrange panel of experts..... well, 50 yards downrange and 25 to the side.
The amount of flash is sometimes related to how clean/ dirty the Krink is. We had the oppurtunity to run some at night in F/A, and it looked like a sparkler. Having said that, there was a lot of crap inside the Krink, and the speculation was some of it was heading downrange.
Also understand that certain brands/ lots of ammo may increase/ decrease flash, regardless of what you have on the end of your stick.
Remember that there are several target indicators, and your movement may be the biggest one.
The KX is not what i would put on the end of a sniper rifle, DMR, SPR or the like.
Like Shivan and burrito, flash suppression is not why i use the KX3.
Hmm, this brings me to the question, is there a proper way to keep the KX3 clean? I purchased my upper from Denny's Guns with the Krink already mounted so I'm not familiar with tools required to remove the cone for cleaning or wear check. Any advise?
"All tests were with XM193 and the results were judged by a brave downrange panel of experts..... well, 50 yards downrange and 25 to the side."
Ack! CAMERAS, man! CAMERAS! ;)
eklikewhoa
08-10-06, 07:40
i think the kx3 does what its intended to do pretty well, had one on my 7.5" pistol and 11.5" sbr.
Ned Christiansen
08-10-06, 23:51
I clean the outside of the cone with a wire wheel on a grinder... when the mood strikes me. Not that often. The rest of it, interior surfaces, I just wish them clean;)
I run one on my Noveske 14.5 Afghan that is used as a urban precison rifle. My concern was two fold-1st was running a fixed stock and rifle buffer with a 14.5 barrel and mid length gas system. I wanted to make sure I was pushing enough gas for reliable function. 2nd, for a L/E perimeter gun, I wasn't really concerned about flash, I was more concerned about guys hearing around me. The KX3 excels at making 5.56 tolerable for everyone except the guy in front of it, and I want it loud and blasty for that dude.
My new 7.5 will also have one for very obvious reasons.:D
Can anyone tell me how much length the KX3 adds to the barrel (ie. not the overall length of the KX3, but how much longer it makes the overall length of the barrel........11.5" barrel + KX3 = XX.x")
Thanks
Robb Jensen
08-12-06, 08:26
Can anyone tell me how much length the KX3 adds to the barrel (ie. not the overall length of the KX3, but how much longer it makes the overall length of the barrel........11.5" barrel + KX3 = XX.x")
Thanks
It's 1.75" longer than a 11.5" with an A2 FS'r. Here's a pic of both of my 11.5" uppers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/d2705a70.jpg
Here's the same 11.5" w/KX3 with my 14.5" LMT SBR.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/adcda74f.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/e05c51b5.jpg
Over 7K fail free rounds have gone through my SBR with it.
These are my two 11.5" uppers. The haters think that's way too long. I carry this gun around with 77gr BH so barrel length/velocity loss isn't an issue.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/d2705a70.jpg
gotM4,
Could you give me the specifics on the LaRue rail on your 11.5"? Is it a cut down LaRue 12.0?
A friend and I were discussing a SBR project with a 11.5" barrel + KX3 and asking LaRue or having a machinist cut down a 12.0" rail. BTW what kind of barrel did you use on that upper? Great looking SBR's. Any help would be greatly appricated.
Thanks,
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Robb Jensen
08-12-06, 08:35
gotM4,
Could you give me the specifics on the LaRue rail on your 11.5"? Is it a cut down LaRue 12.0?
A friend and I were discussing a SBR project with a 11.5" barrel + KX3 and asking LaRue or having a machinist cut down a 12.0" rail. BTW what kind of barrel did you use on that upper? Great looking SBR's. Any help would be greatly appricated.
Thanks,
Semper Fi,
Jeff
The bbl in the Larue 12.0 is a CMMG 11.5" chrome lined 1x7, the one above it is a M1sales 1x9 non chrome (I got on trade). The Larue 12.0 was cut down about an inch by Harlan of Hardgear LLC (he's a member of this forum) We basically measure it out and marked where to cut it so that the flats of the KX3 would be under the rails. I used a strap wrench and a peel washer to mount it instead of using a crush washer. I use a Enidine buffer in this gun and it has very little recoil (even less than my 14.5" LMT).
Harlan cut the rail with a hack saw and cleaned up the cuts using a bench mounted sander and finished the end with flat black Norrells.
gotM4,
I greatly appriciated the information. Thank you!
Semper Fi,
Jeff
AR15barrels
08-12-06, 10:58
Can anyone tell me how much length the KX3 adds to the barrel (ie. not the overall length of the KX3, but how much longer it makes the overall length of the barrel........11.5" barrel + KX3 = XX.x")
It adds around 2.4" to 2.5" to a barrel's length so that 11.5" becomes a 14".
This is why you see them permanent attached to 13.7" barrels for a total length of 16.1"
bluedude7012
01-26-10, 05:39
what are your opinions on the kx3? Do they work? Are they worth the money? What are the benefits?
I noticed less noise inside, a lot less recoil, and no difference in flash. Its well worth the money.
I got the KX3 standard on my Noveske Infidel 13.7''. I've had it for about 2 years now.
I can definitely agree that the pig does an excellent job of directing all the propellant gasses forward (not a hint of powder-burn or concussion when shooting). I'm afraid I do have a few beefs with it on my setup though:
1. I think it was my mistake to have it on a 13.7'' barrel, seeing as how it is a little chunky and a longer barrel will bring that weight out further. Between the 12'' VIS rail and the KX3, my rifle is pretty front heavy.
2. I had myself convinced that the extra weight on the front end would help reduce the muzzle climb and recoil (makes sense to me, anyhow: more ass = less movement...) Here's the thing that finally occurred to me though: with the KX3 directing all the gasses straight forward, with no lateral dissipation, the recoil felt actually seems to be greater than that of my work rifle.
Again, I think these are only really issues with my setup. The KX3 is a great product for several applications (shooting indoors / shooting in close proximity to others / helping properly cycle gasses on SBRs, etc), just not for the setup I'm running.
Anyone else have the same notion of increased recoil with the KX3?
Anyone else have the same notion of increased recoil with the KX3?
I don't see that on mine, but mine is a little different as my barrel is a 12.5"
Perceived felt recoil is about the same as it was in its 16" form.
http://gallery.me.com/kevinfarrell/100158/DSCN0005_4/web.jpg
viperashes
10-08-11, 06:37
You're pretty much right on track T-Dot. The force of all the propelant gasses exiting the front of the rifle, rather than laterally, can increase felt recoil a bit. If you apply the physics to it, the device is designed to add more force to the BCG to increase dwell time and gas pressure, so in turn, yes, you are going to get a little bit more felt recoil because of not only that, but again, what you were speaking of, the gas being expelled directly forward.
Edit: I don't really want to speak in absolutes, I said originally that it does, but changed it to "can" because as with anything, there are other variables that come into play that may negate or add to felt recoil.
Thanks for the replies.
Yeah, I really can't speak to the recoil effects on a 12.5'' barrel since I've never experienced it. I can imagine that any drawbacks in recoil are far outweighed by the advantages at a 12.5'' barrel length.
Mega: when you say that the felt recoil on a 12.5'' were similar to the 16'' form, I assume you're saying you've used a KX3 on a 16'' barrel? I'm interested in how that shot: was it noticeably more unwieldy than a 16'' without the KX3? The reason I ask is that my 13.7'' is a little front heavy and I'm trying to figure out if it's the KX3 or the 12'' VIS upper that's the culprit...
viperashes: Thanks for the reply. I guess the question I should have asked myself was "Does a 13.7'' barrel really need as much help as a shorter barrel with cycling gases?" I'm imagining the answer is no.
Next question: what barrel length warrants a KX3? My first vote goes for 12.5'' (like I said, the 13.7 doesn't seem to need it).
viperashes
10-09-11, 04:57
Thanks for the replies.
Yeah, I really can't speak to the recoil effects on a 12.5'' barrel since I've never experienced it. I can imagine that any drawbacks in recoil are far outweighed by the advantages at a 12.5'' barrel length.
Mega: when you say that the felt recoil on a 12.5'' were similar to the 16'' form, I assume you're saying you've used a KX3 on a 16'' barrel? I'm interested in how that shot: was it noticeably more unwieldy than a 16'' without the KX3? The reason I ask is that my 13.7'' is a little front heavy and I'm trying to figure out if it's the KX3 or the 12'' VIS upper that's the culprit...
viperashes: Thanks for the reply. I guess the question I should have asked myself was "Does a 13.7'' barrel really need as much help as a shorter barrel with cycling gases?" I'm imagining the answer is no.
Next question: what barrel length warrants a KX3? My first vote goes for 12.5'' (like I said, the 13.7 doesn't seem to need it).
Well honestly, this is kind of subjective. Just as anything else, it depends on what someone is using it for. If someone wants to use a 20" barrel A4 style AR in a CQB environment and for whatever reason wants to run this FH because of it's noise projection, then in their situation, people are probably going to call them stupid, but it's their prerogative.
I think the right question to ask is what barrel length is going to see the most benefit from this muzzle device, and in that case, I would say 12.5" and shorter because at these lengths, there is less barrel in front of the gas block to create enough back-pressure to reliably cycle the weapon. Also when you start getting into the shorter barrel lengths there is more muzzle noise, so directing it forward and away from the shooter is an added benefit.
The 13.7" and 14.5" barreled carbines are still going to see some benefit from this FH, but again it shines on the shorter SBR and PDW class weapons.
You're pretty much right on track T-Dot. The force of all the propelant gasses exiting the front of the rifle, rather than laterally, can increase felt recoil a bit. If you apply the physics to it, the device is designed to add more force to the BCG to increase dwell time and gas pressure, so in turn, yes, you are going to get a little bit more felt recoil because of not only that, but again, what you were speaking of, the gas being expelled directly forward.
Edit: I don't really want to speak in absolutes, I said originally that it does, but changed it to "can" because as with anything, there are other variables that come into play that may negate or add to felt recoil.
Is this increase in felt recoil something you've experienced firsthand?
I ask because it does not match my observations as part of a brake test I'm working on based on the amount of distance covered by the rest when firing as compared to other brakes, and A2, and bare barrel, but I will eventually have accelerometer data to actually quantify the issue. My observation was simply that the rest wound up ~the same distance from a line in the table with almost all of the devices I was testing. I made a mental note of this because it struck me odd at the time and I wanted to verify with the hard numbers later.
viperashes
10-09-11, 07:09
Is this increase in felt recoil something you've experienced firsthand?
I ask because it does not match my observations as part of a brake test I'm working on based on the amount of distance covered by the rest when firing as compared to other brakes, and A2, and bare barrel, but I will eventually have accelerometer data to actually quantify the issue. My observation was simply that the rest wound up ~the same distance from a line in the table with almost all of the devices I was testing. I made a mental note of this because it struck me odd at the time and I wanted to verify with the hard numbers later.
Rob, I don't necessarily want to call it an "increase" in felt recoil per-se, because it may not have been that. I did notice a difference, but it wasn't something that was being compared and I didn't have anything to compare side-by-side with. The KX3 was installed on a 10.3" (?) Colt AR. I had shot the rifle with the previous muzzle device that was on it, I think just an A2 birdcage.
The rifle was shot with the two different muzzle devices on two separate, consecutive weekends, so again, my observations are FAR from scientific. My personal reflection was that the KX3 seemed to recoil more linearly to the rear. While it may not have been "more" felt recoil, it was definitely different than with what, for argument's sake, a birdcage was.
Basically, the sensation I recall was that it felt like the BCG had a more solid rearward movement. I felt more solid, but wasn't harsh. To use an analogy the KX3 felt similar to getting punched in the shoulder with the same force as someone poking you in the shoulder (A2).
Especially when talking about things like this, I hate to use the wrong terminology and show my ignorance, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.
Mega: when you say that the felt recoil on a 12.5'' were similar to the 16'' form, I assume you're saying you've used a KX3 on a 16'' barrel? I'm interested in how that shot: was it noticeably more unwieldy than a 16'' without the KX3? The reason I ask is that my 13.7'' is a little front heavy and I'm trying to figure out if it's the KX3 or the 12'' VIS upper that's the culprit...
Yes. I had that same KX3 on that same carbine, but with a 16" barrel before SBR'ing it.
The 16" version was nose heavy, which was one reason for shortening it, but I really cannot say I noticed a difference in felt recoil between the two versions.
Subjective for sure, but if there was a difference, I didn't notice it.
Yes. I had that same KX3 on that same carbine, but with a 16" barrel before SBR'ing it.
The 16" version was nose heavy, which was one reason for shortening it, but I really cannot say I noticed a difference in felt recoil between the two versions.
Subjective for sure, but if there was a difference, I didn't notice it.
I see. Thanks for the feedback!
They are pretty cool mounts. If I didn't run suppressors on my rigs I would have one on there.
viperashes
10-10-11, 02:50
It would be interesting to see a "KX4" that was also a suppressor mount. I figure the pig is right about the same diameter as most current cans, and that it essentially uses a blast baffle to complete it's job. It wouldn't be too difficult to build something around that design that was detachable.
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