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VMI-MO
10-26-10, 14:38
I have recently undertaken some big steps to check my handgun training with reality, and bring it back to where it needs to be.

The purpose of this write up will be how I created my CC system and, what things needed to be focused on and finally how I must be able to employ it.

This will differ from home defense concepts because I see the CC as being employed with minimal reaction time, in an area not of your choosing, against a wide range of possible threats.

The first thing I analyzed was my environment. What type of terrain will I be around? Farmland? Roads? Apartments? Do you spend a lot of time out in the dark, or during the day. Do you maneuver in restaurants and packed subways or out in the open. This is important because it will help to dictate the threat you face along with training considerations. .

For me this would be suburbia with possible large population centers. Mostly during daylight hours with a good deal of time revolving around stores and time in a car.

From the AO we have established we can then determine our threat. Are you likely to encounter multiple gang bangers who are on the war path? Local solo meth head? Trained ninja? Rabid animal? If you are in a city, your threat is probably different from someone in a rural small town.

I have determined my main threats as solo crack heads in/around vehicles in a simple mugging type attack, potential gang bangers in some sort of show of force situation and then finally, the possibility of a rabid animal.

Now we have determined an AO and the threat we are likely to face. What is your mission or purpose for carrying a ghetto blaster? Yes there is the generic “well its self defense you dip shit, duh”. However to be truly successful in your training and employment you might want to refine just what you expect to do. Is your mission protect your family from threat X, protect your own epidermis from threat G, stop waves of zombie al-Qaeda nazi terrorists from sezing the local hobby store?

I carry in order to protect those around me from any of the above stated threats by moving them away from the threat if possible and if necessary neutralizing the threat with reasonable and justified force.
With that I laid out what my priorities are. First the Tactical Nike approach followed by justified force if needed. This tells me what I must ensure those around me know what to do in specific scenarios, and what I must be able to do.

So far we have dealt in the conceptual planning phase of the CC. We have identified A) What your AO is B) which then drives your threat C) Our mission or intent we use to defeat the perceived threats. Now we begin to build our CC to deal with the above problems, and design a training regime to allow us to succeed.

I built my CC around several key principles 1)Represents a defense in depth approach 2) versatile (left/right hand only, spread load my assets) 3)speed of employment 4)stealth

How do we practice defense in depth with CC? I built it around 3 ranges. First is gun range. For me this extends from 1m-30m. In this range I know I can effectively and efficiently employ a weapon to
deal with a variety of threats under a variety of conditions. Also at this range I still have the ability to apply the “run away and live another day approach”. Next is what I call “contact range”. This is where I can reach out and touch someone. This layer of defense is built around escaping if possible, if not then I still have the ability to go to guns, or if needed using a variety of strikes and other forms of hands on fun in an attempt to subdue the threat. Finally is what I call grappling range. This means some nasty dudes body is all over yours and you are most likely on the ground. Guns may be an option but you must create space first.

Versatility. I feel that a CC load must spread loaded so that either side (left/right) has a variety of assests that I can employ in a timely manner to achieve the desired results. This principle also drives my training regime.

Speed of employment and stealth are kinda no brainers.

On to what I carry and why:
G19 w/ warren black rears and a FO front in a AIWB setup. I do not like night sights and do not use them, if you want to discuss this PM me. This is a dead to nuts reliable setup, that offers me access while sitting, standing etc with both sides.

1 G17 Mag, this is mainly done if my mag shits the bed. Not because I expect to engage 32 bad guys

1 Folding knife in left hand pocket. I carry this on my left hand side because I want to be able to employ it if my gun hand is occupied. I carry a knife not because I want to cut some one, but because I use it as a tool all the time. If it comes down to me having to stick someone then that option still exists.

1 SF light. It is the VTAC version of the E2D (I think). I have a lanyard loop on it so I can go hands free and keep it next to my wallet in my back left pocket.

Finally is training. My training revolves around the area I will be in, the threat I will likely face, what assets I have at my disposal and finally actions on contact with the threat.
For example. A likely scenario is that I will be a car, and approached from any direction by someone attempting to rob me. So I train for this by ensuring that I can employ a handgun from a seated position in a car in a 360degree environment.
Or There is the chance I get bum rushed and knocked on my face. I train to fight my way up and out of that situation.


PJ

Submariner
10-27-10, 10:23
I carry in order to protect those around me from any of the above stated threats

Family/friends only? Otherwise, how close to you must "those around me" be to receive your protection? And if other than friends/family, why?

VMI-MO
10-27-10, 11:09
Family/friends only? Otherwise, how close to you must "those around me" be to receive your protection? And if other than friends/family, why?

SHitty wording on my part.

This applies to family/friends.

Now if something occurs and there are innocents that are clearly in trouble, and there is no threat to my family/friends, then I would like to think I would intervene.

Why? First, I do beleive in minding your own business. However, if that gut feeling kicks in and something needs to be done, or just another human needs help I think it is every persons duty to step up and help. I am not just referring to going to guns. Are you going to pass by someone having a heart attack? hope not. Are you going to let a GDOP walk out infront of oncoming traffic?

PJ

NC Buckeye
10-27-10, 11:38
I carry the exact same system except I carry strong side...

Glock 19 (TFO sights mainly for the fiber optic)
Glock 17 mag, it is no more trouble than carrying a G19 mag
A Benchmade 551 Griptilian in my left pocket, mainly for weapon retention
And a SF E2D for white light and less-than lethal option

I didn't give it nearly as much thought though. I shoot a 9mm faster an more accurately than .45. I don't see a point to the 40S&W so it isn't in my consideration set.

16>11 and find my Glock easier to conceal than my 9mm Kimber and while I trust both, I trust my glock more.

The thumb stud and the AXIS lock on the BM make it very quick and in NC I can't carry a fixed blade so a TDI is rulled out.

The SF light is super bright starts at full intensity and thought the bezel was cool. Now I would ditch the bezel because it pokes my leg.

I also have a Kahr PM9 I carry when I want something smaller and I chose it because of the manual of arms.

I think if you pick stuff that you operate well, can carry the way you like, and have identified options for contact and non-contact distances your good.

Submariner
10-27-10, 12:11
SHitty wording on my part.
Why? First, I do beleive in minding your own business. However, if that gut feeling kicks in and something needs to be done, or just another human needs help I think it is every persons duty to step up and help. I am not just referring to going to guns.

Good Samaritan? Of course.

Going to guns to defend another when I may or may not have a clear picture of what is going on is the focus of my question. Best counsel I have received from former cops/trainers is be a good witness unless your life is threatened, e.g. robbers start herding witnesses into the back room. Then fight with all means available.

Good topic.

VMI-MO
10-27-10, 16:00
Good Samaritan? Of course.

Going to guns to defend another when I may or may not have a clear picture of what is going on is the focus of my question. Best counsel I have received from former cops/trainers is be a good witness unless your life is threatened, e.g. robbers start herding witnesses into the back room. Then fight with all means available.

Good topic.

It is all based on the situation. I agree 100%. If I am unclear on a situation then I will find out what I can and do what I can.

If I see a guy stabbing someone, well I will try to stop it however necessary.

Once again it all comes down to your mission, what you determine to be your ROE and finally how much information is present.

To take this into a training aspect, I would like to see FOF or somthing similar done with a wider range of scenarios (shoot and no shoot), with a no bullshit lawyer or SME (cop) present to see just how legal and justified the actions of the individuals are.

PJ

GLOCKMASTER
10-27-10, 18:26
I posted this on another site and since PJ started this topic I will post it here.

I have a few go to pistols depending on what I'm doing. Below is how I have them setup as CC/go to/fighting pistols. How I CC and what I CC will be some what dependent upon how I'm dressed and the event that I might be attending. Also when I'm CC my light maybe attached to the pistol.

Glocks
-Vickers mag release
-Glock OEM Minus Connector

Why: I add the Vicker’s Mag release to all of my Glocks to improve ease of manipulation and to minimize my hand movement during a magazine change. At one time I tried the factory extended magazine release but found it to be too long as it would dig into my hand and cause me to unintentionally release the magazine. I have also tried the extended slide release levers and found them to be a PITA for me so now I just leave the standard slide release lever in place.

Ammo: Speer Gold Dots
Why: We have shot plenty of people with Gold Dots and they work better than advertised.

Sights: Warren Tactical Night Sights.
Why: I appreciate the sight picture they provide in all lighting conditions. The rear sight has a wide notch with very dim yellow rear tritium inserts and the front has a larger and brighter green tritium insert. With this combination there should be no doubt as to where the front sight is in relation to the rear sight. Also with the wide rear notch on the rear the front sight is very easy and fast to acquire. There is also a nice white ring around the front tritium insert that assists the eyes in finding the front sight during optimal lighting conditions.

Glock Factory “+” Magazine Floor Plates:
Why: I use Glock factory “+” magazine floor plates on my Glock 9mm magazines. I find they assist me with getting a little more leverage on the magazine during insertion and it keeps me from pinching my strong hand when inserting the magazine which I have done several times. I also use Wolff extra power magazine springs in my Glock magazines.Also if I top the pistol off the mag extension allows me to tug on the mag prior to my support hand leaving the pistol.

Light: Surefire X300, w/DG Switch
Why: I like the throw of the X300 and when used in combination with the DG-11 switch it’s a great combination on the Glock.. I like using the DG switch because you have light no matter how many hands you are using to grip the pistol. You never know when you will only have one hand because of either an injury or one hand may be occupied with something or someone else.

Handheld light: I carry a Viking Tactics/Surefire L4 light with a bungee retention. The VTAC-L4 Light has a KX2C 200 (LED) lumen output head with a Z68 Scout light tailcap. The bungee retention allows me to retain the light in my hand while performing such activities such as reloading, clearing malfunctions, opening doors, etc….. Lanyards just never really worked for me.
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Glocks/DSC_1667.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Glocks/DSC_1669.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n355/STR8SHTER/Glocks/DSC_1672.jpg


*What led to this current configuration:
I have been a Glock shooter for many years. I currently own three G17’s, two G19’s (my main carry pistols) and a G21 SF with standard rails and mag release. Two of my G17’s are setup for extreme accuracy and yes they can be tweaked to shoot tight ass groups at distance. These two are fitted with KKM barrels and Dawson Precision adjustable target sights. So I have one G17, two G19’s and one G21 SF that are setup in what I would consider a fighting pistol configuration. I have tweaked my pistol setups a lot over the years to find what works for me and this works for me.

Do I own other pistols, sure I own other pistols but I still prefer a Glock in a 9 or .45 platform. Are they perfect hell no, but I can get them very close to being perfect. ;)

Fred Robinson
10-27-10, 19:25
Jeff,

Can you elaborate on the bungee set-up? It appears to be a small diameter cord. How is it tied around the flashlight head? Is this the same set-up that KL uses?

Thanks,

Fred


PJ,
Good thread and hope you are well.
Best regards.

VMI-MO
10-27-10, 20:12
Jeff,

Can you elaborate on the bungee set-up? It appears to be a small diameter cord. How is it tied around the flashlight head? Is this the same set-up that KL uses?

Thanks,

Fred


PJ,
Good thread and hope you are well.
Best regards.

Fred, I am doing fine and living the high life. How goes it with you?

I am not Jeff (duhh) but for the light set up:

There are holes back by the on off switch, and then there is a ring cut out of the front part of the light that bungee can be looped around. I am sorry if that explanation confused you more.

This is a link of the light in question that shows the forward groove the bungee cord is tied into (http://images.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/surefire/images/e2dlbk.jpg)

Yes this setup is used by Mr. Lamb. Jeff hit all the major points of how this simple setup is a real ass saver.


PJ