View Full Version : Red Dots on Handguns
This appears to be the new hot ticket on defensive handguns, particularly the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint. While there are a few threads here on M4C about the subject, none of them are very detailed. I was hoping to get a little more info from people who have experience with this setup.
-What issue, if any, have you had with your setup?
-Pros/Cons?
-LED or Dual ilumination
-Dot type/MOA size
-Mounting methods/Placement
-Ect.
Business_Casual
10-26-10, 19:22
So you acknowledge that there are existing threads, yet you insist on starting your own to rehash the information instead of posting those same questions in the aforementioned existing threads?
:confused:
Good timing because I'm thinking about building a G17 or G34 with a red dot and I'd like to hear some opinions and experiences as well.
So you acknowledge that there are existing threads, yet you insist on starting your own to rehash the information instead of posting those same questions in the aforementioned existing threads?
:confused:
I haven't seen a comprehensive thread that discusses the technical details that the OP is looking for. We've had several that discuss how cool there are or very specific aspects of a single setup though. With Red Dots poised to become more and more popular I think it’s fitting we have some more in depth discussions about them.
Business_Casual
10-26-10, 19:57
Fair enough.
If you go with a battery RMR, put a fresh battery in it before you mount and zero it.
I predict that they will become very popular and then fizzle out when the "shoot fast miss fast" crowd realize that the limited alignment forces you to slow down and aim carefully. If there's one thing handgunners I see at the range don't like, it is aiming.
B_C
I have to respectfully disagree. I think that since red dots are so popular on rifles and carbines that it's only natural that they will bleed over to handguns. That's just my opinion and I could be WAAAYYYYYY off base :D
But I'm willing to spend the money and give one a try!
welchtactical
10-26-10, 20:31
From the bit I have shot with a RD on a handgun (G19), I would say that if you cant punch straight out and always have a good sight picture, the RD will slow you down (at least at first). The dot can be hard to find in the little window. Since I also have a G19 and shoot a lot I didnt have an issue but some shooters did. Once I got comfortable with it, it was fast and longer shots seemed a lot easier.
Business_Casual
10-26-10, 21:00
From the bit I have shot with a RD on a handgun (G19), I would say that if you cant punch straight out and always have a good sight picture, the RD will slow you down (at least at first).
That is accurate.
The dot can be hard to find in the little window.
That is also accurate, but it does get better. I use the front BUIS to index off of - is that cheating?
Since I also have a G19 and shoot a lot I didnt have an issue but some shooters did.
I carry a G19 with a LED RMR on a daily basis.
Once I got comfortable with it, it was fast and longer shots seemed a lot easier.
Longer shots are stupid easy. Shooting while moving is easier. Everything - except when you have to index the dot - is better. It is that little problem of indexing the dot. This is where the Bowie BUIS set up really brings an advantage to the table.
Shrug. But what do I know? The jury is still out for serious shooters, apparently.
B_C
Thanks for all the great info Magz!
B_C, how about some pictures?
That is accurate.
That is also accurate, but it does get better. I use the front BUIS to index off of - is that cheating?
I carry a G19 with a LED RMR on a daily basis.
Longer shots are stupid easy. Shooting while moving is easier. Everything - except when you have to index the dot - is better. It is that little problem of indexing the dot. This is where the Bowie BUIS set up really brings an advantage to the table.
Shrug. But what do I know? The jury is still out for serious shooters, apparently.
B_C
BC,
Dont get your panties in a twist man. Its still a relatively "new" concept despite Bowie and others like him having run these setups for years.
We could end up running into serious issues relating to durability with the current crop of MRD's when mounted on a pistol slide.
We will have to see, no insult was intended nor was i referring to you as someone that doesnt take shooting seriously.
M4, ill have some pictures up tomorrow or the day after once i finish the work on this particular G17. The slide is the suarez/one source tactical setup with trijicon RMR LED version.
GunSlinger
10-26-10, 22:23
This appears to be the new hot ticket on defensive handguns, particularly the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint. While there are a few threads here on M4C about the subject, none of them are very detailed. I was hoping to get a little more info from people who have experience with this setup.
-What issue, if any, have you had with your setup?
-Pros/Cons?
-LED or Dual ilumination
-Dot type/MOA size
-Mounting methods/Placement
-Ect.
I set up a gen4 17 with a duel illuminated RMR as a test bed and have since done some of my best shooting ever.
My Brother from another Mother B_C (not to be left behind) set up his blaster with an 8moa led RMR.
A major con/issue with the duel illuminated model is washout. At first I was attracted to the duel because I thought it was a no-brainer to have a sight that didn't ever need batteries. I also figured it would definitely be more durable due to its simplicity. All that goes out the window if your going to be using this set up for social work because the negative side of washout far outweighs the pros big time. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about If I point my duel powered RMR at the t.v. the dot vanishes. Indoors to outside when the sun is out- gone. Surefire a smallish room-gone. Just unacceptable for a go-to pistol. If its a range/training only gun the duel is still cool.
The 7&8moa dots fit neatly inside an NRA targets black bulls eye at 25 yards. It's big enough to pick up fast and I have confidence It doesn't need to be any smaller to take precision shooting with a combat pistol to it's limits. If you go any smaller you may be treading in gamer territory. Another way to go is the Delta point due to it's triangle, you can use the top tip as a precision aiming point as needed and paste the triangle on target business as usual in faster/closer shooting scenarios. I can't comment on this set up much more since I don't have one yet but David Bowie of Bowie tactical Concepts has been running one for a while and speaks highly of it.
That brings me to Mr. Bowie. Yes, shameless plug time. David is a dialed in end user and has been running dots on pistols and preaching their benefits for many years. David is ahead of the curve right now when it comes to getting the custom work needed to set up your chosen sight on a pistol. I talked with him before starting the RMR adventure and he advised me wisely of his favorite set up. The sight is milled all the way to the rear of the slide, this keeps the sight as far away from the ejection port as possible to ease soot build up and possible damage from spent cases. The back up suppressor iron sight is milled in front of the RMR/Delta point also aiding in protecting the glass and also does away with the occluded sight picture you would get by putting the back up sight behind the glass. I'm very pleased with this set up and I don't think I'm the only one. I know of a firearms Guru who gets the utmost respect on this forum who runs this set up as well from Bowie and is pleased.
As far a durability goes It's still up in the air. Ive read everything I come across on this subject and haven't read much negativity on the RMRs or the Delta points durability. please post if you have any info on this.
Also, anyone Know if RMR's and Delta Points are Mil Spec?
Hope this helped.
Cheers,
Hanna
We've been experimenting with RDS on handguns since early this year. Some of the more common electronic sights used in this role include the J-Point, Dr. Optic, ITI MRDS, Trijicon RMR, and Leupold Delta Point. While the micro-Aimpoint T1/H1 will work in this role, they are a bit big for service pistols; however, they are outstanding on game guns and big bore revolvers. While a small 2-4 MOA dot works nicely for pure target shooting, a larger dot of 8 MOA or so seems to be better for most defensive purposes with duty/CCW handguns. As noted, certain lighting conditions can wash-out the dot on the Trijicon self-illuminating RMR, but the LED RMR does not suffer from this problem.
There are several options to mount a small RDS on duty/CCW handguns; the easiest method is to drift out the standard rear sight and simply add a dove-tail adapter allowing the RDS to bolt on to the side. The lowest profile method and the one that fosters the most natural shooting position is to permanently mil the slide to allow the RDS to sit lower and allow a more natural shooting position. Tall iron sights, as used with suppressors, allows a rough co-witness with the RDS and should be considered a mandatory item on a duty/CCW handgun. We have seen one RMR on a G19 stop working, however, it was no big deal, as the iron sights worked flawlessly and allowed an immediate transition with no wasted time or missed shots. In addition, the front and rear iron sights definitely help in finding the red dot if the initial presentation/index is a bit off.
There is no greater difficulty carrying an RDS equipped handgun compared to one with standard iron sights. The Alessi DOJ-open port, Comp Tac Belt Holster, and Peters Spada work perfectly with small slide mounted RDS, while the Raven RCS and CCC Looper required minor modification to the front edge of the shirt guard. The Dale Fricke (http://dalefrickeholsters.com) Seraphim IWB holster has become our favorite CCW holster as it is specifically designed for use with pistols having an RMR mounted--so far it is working very well when used for IWB at 3-4 o'clock, as well as AIWB at 12 to 1 o'clock or so. Fricke also makes an outstanding OWB holster for RMR equipped pistols--the Gideon Elite. We have modified a lot of 6004's and 6280's to work with RDS equipped pistols. As yet we have not come up with a good modification for Safariland ALS holsters. Holsters Plus (http://www.holstersplus.com) makes their nice Sure-Lock line of OWB concealable kydex holsters which offer a bit less retention than ALS.
It does take a lot of dry firing/drawing and several thousand live rounds to become proficient. I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing.
If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with irons; however, given the vision changes following my basilar skull fracture last year, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons...
Business_Casual
10-27-10, 06:11
In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing.
That is an important point that needs to be considered carefully.
B_C
In my opinion, probably worth about half of what you paid for it, is RDS are helpful for eyesight and helpful under some circumstances manipulating long guns. Bulky and gimmicky on a pistol unless for some kind of competition that doesn't require drawing. I like hi visibility front sights, whether hi-viz as a brand or even Trijicon/Meprolight tritium. As a prior poster said, learn to use a handgun well and the sight issue is simpler.
Fair enough.
If you go with a battery RMR, put a fresh battery in it before you mount and zero it.
I predict that they will become very popular and then fizzle out when the "shoot fast miss fast" crowd realize that the limited alignment forces you to slow down and aim carefully. If there's one thing handgunners I see at the range don't like, it is aiming.
B_C
If you use one, why all the dismissal of the idea? Don't you think its a good idea if you use it?
My good buddy on my dept recently got one for his duty Glock 21C.
On Saturday we had my depts annual state wide LEO shooting match and he did awesome with the red dot. He told me it took him a few hundred draws to learn how the dot would come up, but after that it was second nature.
Shooting with him that day he was definitely not slow on aquiring the dot and target.
He also switched out his battery that day and it held zero. His also has a set of irons on the rear of the site.
captbarty--You do realize that some of our Nation's premier warriors are using RDS equipped handguns on duty and in combat? They are not doing so because "the concept is bulky and gimmicky on a pistol" and I guarantee these guys are needing to draw from a holster.
Business_Casual
10-27-10, 11:11
Thanks for all the great info Magz!
B_C, how about some pictures?
Of course and you are always welcome to try my pistol.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5203/013bp.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/013bp.jpg/)
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2574/018gy.th.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/018gy.jpg/)
I'm not "dismissing" red dots on pistols, I just have some concerns. Further to that point, if people are looking for a magic pistol sight that will correct their many and obvious problems with trigger control and recoil management, this won't solve those problems. The same as on a carbine, where it won't solve those problems either.
The first "R" by the way, stands for Ruggedized, http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=13B_C
I have a question for those that have run this set-up. The deltapoint and rmr led are auto for brightness(I think). I saw another post where a new rmr model is coming out with the ability to adjust dot intensity. Is this one more step in the right direction or not needed ? I know I like being able to adjust my h-1. Thanks Brad
I put an RMR on a S&W 686. Love it!
Variable intensity is nice--it is one of the features that has been useful on the ITI MRDS, but it is not critical.
captbarty--You do realize that some of our Nation's premier warriors are using RDS equipped handguns on duty and in combat? They are not doing so because "the concept is bulky and gimmicky on a pistol" and I guarantee these guys are needing to draw from a holster.
You are quite correct but you used two very important words - "premier warriors." There is no doubt that they can make full use of and derive benefit from that level of sophistication. The original poster asked about "defensive use". I interpreted that to mean, perhaps incorrectly, that it would be for an individual in a defensive situation. I benefited from some words of wisdom imparted by usmc03 on this site regarding home defense use of an M4 in which usmc03 commented that irons were preferred because "invasions happen quickly ..... not waiting for one to turn on electronic devices ..." and went on to recommend irons with a good light. Experimentation and testing convinced me. I use a Meprolight front with a foregrip mounted light. Of course, that's an M4. On one of my revolvers which has a rail, I use a light I mount on that rail and an integral red dot (though I recognize some of the liabilities of those) which is turned on by momentary thumb pressure. I never use one on a carry weapon and when I've had to use a weapon in the (thankfully distant) past, it was with actually very rudimentary irons; fortunately, I'm still here.
So, that's the reasoning. Special operations has different requirements than I got from the initial post. Also, those holsters which allow RDS are specialized and larger. I appreciate your comments but I think we are at cross-purposes.
I interpreted that to mean, perhaps incorrectly, that it would be for an individual in a defensive situation. I benefited from some words of wisdom imparted by usmc03 on this site regarding home defense use of an M4 in which usmc03 commented that irons were preferred because "invasions happen quickly ..... not waiting for one to turn on electronic devices ..." and went on to recommend irons with a good light. Experimentation and testing convinced me.
Are the pistol red dots such as the Trijicon RMR "always on" like an Aimpoint or do they auto off like the EOTechs? What is battery life like? Can you leave it on on a nightstand gun for weeks or months and have it up and running when you need it?
Business_Casual
10-27-10, 18:17
Are the pistol red dots such as the Trijicon RMR "always on" like an Aimpoint or do they auto off like the EOTechs? What is battery life like? Can you leave it on on a nightstand gun for weeks or months and have it up and running when you need it?
Always on and claims for 35,000 hours in dark storage. What does that mean to you and me? Shrug. But some of us are working on finding out.
B_C
Gentlemen,
Great input. I still have a question.
How repeatable are the windage and elevation adjustments?
Are they linear?
Thanks.
captbarty--I must disagree, as I would much rather relay on an RDS equipped weapon in any personal defensive situation, since I am more likely to get accurate hits--especially in low light conditions and against multiple moving opponents. Any quality RDS is kept in the "on" position at all times, so there is NO need to "turn on electronic devices", for example Aimpoints on carbines and shotguns, as well as RMR's on pistols. If you worry about it, change the batteries every year or two. You might also note that USMC03 has updated his recommendations after originally writing the comments several years ago and now states: "Hits on target will always be faster and easier to acquire with a red dot sight (such as an Aimpoint) than with iron sights." "I leave all of my Aimpoints on 24/7.....just leave it on and change the batteries on a regular basis."
I am also quite confused about your holster commentary, as I use the exact same holsters for RDS and iron sighted pistols (Alessi DOJ, RCS Phantom, CCC Looper, Fricke Seraphim and Gideon, Saf 6004, etc...) there are NO size difference because they are the same holsters.
-----------------
The windage and elevation on the Trij RMR and ITI MRDS have been quite solid and repeatable over the last year; the Leup Deltapoint also seems OK, but we are just getting started with trying those, so have no sense of durability.
kaiservontexas
10-28-10, 01:40
I rather just have a laser like crimson trace. I would not want a red dot on my handguns. Maybe I am old fashioned now, but as been said about cons, "unless pristen" one is going to be trying to find the dot. That is enough to get me not to rush out for it. I admit I would try it on a gun if a friend had one, but it just looks cluncky too me.
The lowest profile method and the one that fosters the most natural shooting position is to permanently mil the slide to allow the RDS to sit lower and allow a more natural shooting position. Tall iron sights, as used with suppressors, allows a rough co-witness with the RDS and should be considered a mandatory item on a duty/CCW handgun.
Now if Glock would just make it a factory option...
I have somewhere north of 1500 rounds through my G17 with dual illum RMR.
No issues so far.
I know Kelly McCann was the originator of this idea but Gabe Suarez has really taken the drivers seat on this.
I suggest checking out the subforum on Warriortalk devoted to just this concept.
http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=205
I have been running them off an on for years on various guns.
Trijicon RMR bar far is the best of them i have things to them that made there engineers cry it holds zero through battery changes
the new version is and will be even better with adjustable brightness and NV settings and longer battery life
No issues with them in rain A/C to heat
This appears to be the new hot ticket on defensive handguns, particularly the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint. While there are a few threads here on M4C about the subject, none of them are very detailed. I was hoping to get a little more info from people who have experience with this setup.
-What issue, if any, have you had with your setup?
-Pros/Cons?
-LED or Dual ilumination
-Dot type/MOA size
-Mounting methods/Placement
-Ect.
I have been running an M&P with an RMR for awhile now (in classes with bad weather, CQB schools, etc) and have really learned to like it.
The main issue to me is that you will be slightly slower on your draw and fire. Now we are not talking about much, but still about .25-.50.
If you do not have good control over the gun, you will lose the dot as you shoot multiple shots or move from target to target.
I am running the dual illuminated RMR with an 7MOA dot. I chose it because it is bomb proof (nothing to break). There is a washout concern in certain cirumstances (like being in a dark room and attempting to shoot into a bright area). To date though, I have not had any washout issues.
The best all around dot size I think is 7-8 MOA. It is big enough for speed, but not too big that you cannot shoot 8" targets past 100yds.
My slide has been milled out and the RMR is connected directly to it.
With any RDS, you need to have a back up system. Some like irons sights (co-witnessed) and others like laser grips. Some have both. Just depends on what you want.
For me, lasers (like the CT brand) are still king in CQB environments (even faster than a RDS). So that is what I go with.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
You are quite correct but you used two very important words - "premier warriors." There is no doubt that they can make full use of and derive benefit from that level of sophistication. The original poster asked about "defensive use". I interpreted that to mean, perhaps incorrectly, that it would be for an individual in a defensive situation. I benefited from some words of wisdom imparted by usmc03 on this site regarding home defense use of an M4 in which usmc03 commented that irons were preferred because "invasions happen quickly ..... not waiting for one to turn on electronic devices ..." and went on to recommend irons with a good light. Experimentation and testing convinced me. I use a Meprolight front with a foregrip mounted light. Of course, that's an M4. On one of my revolvers which has a rail, I use a light I mount on that rail and an integral red dot (though I recognize some of the liabilities of those) which is turned on by momentary thumb pressure. I never use one on a carry weapon and when I've had to use a weapon in the (thankfully distant) past, it was with actually very rudimentary irons; fortunately, I'm still here.
So, that's the reasoning. Special operations has different requirements than I got from the initial post. Also, those holsters which allow RDS are specialized and larger. I appreciate your comments but I think we are at cross-purposes.
Shootouts with Civy CCW holders (or home invasions) are generally at conversation distances 3ft-21ft. I would be shocked if anyone even looks at their sights. So I wouldn't be too worried about a RDS slowing you down.
C4
I rather just have a laser like crimson trace. I would not want a red dot on my handguns. Maybe I am old fashioned now, but as been said about cons, "unless pristen" one is going to be trying to find the dot. That is enough to get me not to rush out for it. I admit I would try it on a gun if a friend had one, but it just looks cluncky too me.
Lasers do have their place. They also have a big problem and that is distance (as in you cannot see them past a certain distance in full sun). Lasers are also zero'd between 10-12yds (commonly) so if you are shooting at say 25yds, the laser is of no use.
C4
lethal dose
10-28-10, 17:11
Grant- I've heard mixed things... if you're in a dark house, how does the dual illuminate rmr deal with a bright white light in the way of washout?
Grant- I've heard mixed things... if you're in a dark house, how does the dual illuminate rmr deal with a bright white light in the way of washout?
If it is a white room and small, you will most likely experience washout. This is why I run laser grips.
C4
Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.
Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?
Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.
Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.
There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!
With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
Alaskapopo
10-28-10, 21:45
In my opinion, probably worth about half of what you paid for it, is RDS are helpful for eyesight and helpful under some circumstances manipulating long guns. Bulky and gimmicky on a pistol unless for some kind of competition that doesn't require drawing. I like hi visibility front sights, whether hi-viz as a brand or even Trijicon/Meprolight tritium. As a prior poster said, learn to use a handgun well and the sight issue is simpler.
Actually red dot sights have been used in USPSA and ISPC for years on open class pistols and this sport does require drawing. We do use special holsters however. I just stepped into open class myself. It does take some getting used to but I am very hopefull of the new smaller dots on duty guns. The main issue will be durability.
Pat
Alaskapopo
10-28-10, 21:47
Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.
Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?
Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.
Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.
There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!
With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
Your correct on the dot not improving pure accuracy but it did help me way back when I was a freshman in college. I was just starting out in bullseye and a friend had a dot on his pistol. I could see when I was flinching by the dot dropping out of view. I was able to correct the problem once I knew what I was doing. From that point of view they can help you with your accuracy.
pat
Alaskapopo
10-28-10, 21:49
Where do you guys get the mounts from the RMR for your handguns. Is there any for 1911's
Pat
Your correct on the dot not improving pure accuracy but it did help me way back when I was a freshman in college. I was just starting out in bullseye and a friend had a dot on his pistol. I could see when I was flinching by the dot dropping out of view. I was able to correct the problem once I knew what I was doing. From that point of view they can help you with your accuracy.
pat
Ahh. Good point. They may provide more obvious feedback, but it's up to the shooter to make use of it.
The people on this thread who are saying that the put a dot on their gun and suddenly their accuracy improved are likely telling tales. Regardless of what some will claim, it's not as simple as just putting the dot where you want the bullet to go and just mashing on the trigger.
One very valid point that I didn't address is the fact that red dots seem to be very helpful for people with aging eyes. It takes a lot of "ocular dexterity" to snap from targets to sights and back to the next target. Likewise, a lot of farsighted people have trouble focusing on the front sight the way they need to. The red dot makes that much less of an issue.
Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.
Anything with a red dot can't be used by anyone but tier one operators out of the holster? Are you kidding me?
Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
There have been other crazy comments made by people who know full-well that they have no experience in what they're talking about, but they refuse to admit it.
Thanks for saying this. I was going to mention something, but you've already called the Bravo Sierra on those that seem to be all hat and no 'cattle'.
I've ran quite a bit of rounds through at G19 equipped w/ Trijicon RMR 8 MOA, built by Bowie Tactical. Like a lot of trickle down techniques, gear etc from the competition world, this set up is faster for all the reasons that beltjones already mentioned. If you want the skinny on a set up, call Bowie yourself like I did. The Trijicon RMR has been solid, which says a lot for me since I consider holster wear & 500-1000rds a week a beautiful thing.
Will post up some thoughts, video and pictures at a later time.
Magic_Salad0892
10-29-10, 02:11
One day pistol mounted RD Sights will be standard.
For me however, I won't ever transition to them, but not because I don't like them. Simply because I have more reasons not to have them than to have them.
For me it's simpler to have two sighting systems (Irons, and CTC grip) than to have a red dot sight, with co-witnessed iron sights, and a laser sight. It's a little too much for me to keep track of.
I also admire the low profile of pistols without them, and the fact that I don't have to worry about zeroing issues or battery changes with them.
(Well... at least another set of zeroing issues and battery changes. By the way: I keep my CTC grip zeroed to 25 meters by the way, and from what I can tell it's POA/POI.)
I'd rather wait until somebody makes a RDS specifically made for pistols before I decide I want one, and still wouldn't use it on a defensive pistol.
But if it works out for you, than you need it. For me, I prefer my irons, and a laser grip. Which FWIW hasn't washed out for me, and I have no problem engaging a steel plate at 100-110 yards, with I-Dot sights.
Also FWIW my tool is a Glock 17.
Some of the posts on this thread are absolutely insane. They're either coming from some tactical expert who has no tactical experience, or from someone with firm opinions on speed and accuracy but who has no competitive experience.
First, welcome to the forum! Second, I would suggest cutting down on the attitude. If you do not agree with what someone has stated, try a more subtle aproach. Third, I am unaware of anyone in this thread that has ID'd themselves as a "tactical expert." Please advise us as to who this person is.
A good many people (like DocGKR) and myself shoot in a lot of advanced schools. If you think there isn't any competition in them, then you must have never gone to any.
Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
No, I am not kidding you. I am slightly slower on picking up the dot VS just looking at the front sight when going after 1 second draw and fires. Is part of it the fact that I have been shooting iron sights all my life and have only beeing running a RDS on my pistol for 1.5yrs? Most likely.
Red dots offer a few advantages: 1. They allow the shooter to be target focused. 2. They allow for a significant increase in speed. This is a result of the target focus. Whereas normally a shooter focuses on the front sight, then snaps his eyes to the next target, then brings the front sight into focus on that target in time to make the shot before snapping his eyes to the next target, and so on; with the red dot you simply focus on the target, see the dot on the target (no need to focus on the dot), fire, and snap to the next target.
There are some misconceptions, however. You can't really expect a significant increase in accuracy. Most accuracy problems come from a bad grip and specifically a bad trigger pull. The dot has nothing to do with that. Plus, an 8MOA dot at long range is not going to be the most precise tool, so the whole "long range accuracy" claim is a bit of a crock - not to mention the significant increase in sight-offset that results from mounting a red dot to your pistol (and the resulting zero issues - if you're dead on at 15 yards how high are you at 30?). In any case, very few people have trouble aligning their sights, just like very few people have trouble putting the dot on a target. Aiming is the easy part. It's keeping the sights or dot on the target while you're pulling the trigger that's the hard part. If you're way overgripping with your strong hand or snatching the trigger, your shot will be just as bad with a red dot as it was with iron sights. You'll still miss - but faster!
Agree.
With the above said, for a good shooter red dots offer a significant advantage. After all - you don't see ANY IPSC/USPSA Open shooters opting to use a gun with iron sights anymore, do you? It may take a little more time for the concept and the technology to catch up with the legitimate tactical crowd to the point that they're standard on duty pistols, but it will happen eventually.
The RDS's that these "gun game" guys run are typically C-More's. I have used them. They are MUCH faster to pick up than an RMR type RDS IMHO. So if you are comparing the C-More to an RMR and stating that they are both the same (in regards to picking up the dot at the same speed off a draw), I would have to disagree with that.
I look forward to seeing pics of your setup, years of experience with it (in both an operational and competition arena).
C4
Slower to pick up a target on the draw? Are you kidding me?
No, not according to my timer. I start seeing my front sight much earlier and I adjust my sight picture as I press out. With dot, I see it late in presentation and, even though I don't need to worry about sight alignment, I can't compensate for time lost during press-out.
I found it is imperative to change target height and distances, even if by not much, when practicing with dot. Multiple reps at the same target create a false sense of proficiency with dot - one learns how to present it fast on given target, but if target is moved, a fishing for dot begins again, as slight change in pistol presentation/ angulation makes me lose that dot.
Alaskapopo
10-29-10, 16:00
No, not according to my timer. I start seeing my front sight much earlier and I adjust my sight picture as I press out. With dot, I see it late in presentation and, even though I don't need to worry about sight alignment, I can't compensate for time lost during press-out.
I found it is imperative to change target height and distances, even if by not much, when practicing with dot. Multiple reps at the same target create a false sense of proficiency with dot - one learns how to present it fast on given target, but if target is moved, a fishing for dot begins again, as slight change in pistol presentation/ angulation makes me lose that dot.
If you are good at your presentation there is no need to correct anything. The sight or dot will appear in front of you when you reach full extension. Sounds like more time needs to be devoted to practicing your draw.
Pat
The sight or dot will appear in front of you when you reach full extension.
I want to finish my trigger pull when I reach full extension. I can do that with irons (well, at least, sometimes). With dot, I only see it when I am at/near full extension.
Sounds like more time needs to be devoted to practicing your draw.
Aren't we all?
I was trying to point a difference between grooving your draw for a particular target - which, in my personal experience, is very easy to get into with dot - vs. having a consistent presentation regardless of distance to target and its height.
It's been mentioned before, but worth repeating again I think. When one gets older the eye's ability to focus up close, or quickly change focus, deteriorates significantly. A dot seems to help with this quite a bit. Even if your grip and presentation isn't perfect, it's not that hard to quickly find the dot, assuming you can see the front sight through the lens.
My actual experience with dots on handguns is limited to the one I used to use for IPSC years ago (I have 3 T1's on AR's). I'm going to send a glock slide and an RMR to Bowie, and have it and his backup sights installed. It seems like that should work well.
At close range it probably doesn't matter most of the time.
sweatpants
10-29-10, 18:08
It's been mentioned before, but worth repeating again I think. When one gets older the eye's ability to focus up close, or quickly change focus, deteriorates significantly. A dot seems to help with this quite a bit. Even if your grip and presentation isn't perfect, it's not that hard to quickly find the dot, assuming you can see the front sight through the lens.
My actual experience with dots on handguns is limited to the one I used to use for IPSC years ago (I have 3 T1's on AR's). I'm going to send a glock slide and an RMR to Bowie, and have it and his backup sights installed. It seems like that should work well.
At close range it probably doesn't matter most of the time.
bmg, IM sent.
My experience with red dots on handguns is positive so far, but there is a learning curve involved and the (financial) barrier to entry is substantial.
Littlelebowski
10-29-10, 18:16
Where do you guys get the mounts from the RMR for your handguns. Is there any for 1911's
Pat
Gotta have the slide milled.
sweatpants
10-29-10, 18:24
Gotta have the slide milled.
I'm sure they offer dovetail mounts, but they are awful. They ride too high to get a good sight picture reliably with your natural point of aim. So before you try to find some way out of it Littlelebowski nailed it.
Neither a tactical nor a competitive expert here... Hell I dont even have an RDS mounted on a gun yet so take this with a grain of salt.
I played with the RMR both LED and dual and the Deltapoint for a while today thanks to the patience of some sales people at my local credit card melting spot.
For those of us with aging eyes, yes a red dot even on a handgun will increase our accuracy. Much less wear and tear on the eyes with the target and dot being on the same focal plane. Hard for us geezers to be accurate when we cant see the target or the sights.
Only having played with the micro dots for a short time it was very evident that there will be a learning curve in adapting to the dot. If your presentation is not flat in front of your dominant eye there will be a lot of fishing for the dot. My presentation stroke is far from perfect, I know, but I had a hard time picking up the dot. Nothing that a LOT of practice couldnt solve. I am also sure that the same will happen during recoil.
As for mounting options, the Deltapoint comes with a number of adapters that would let you at least try to see if you can make the dot thing work. In the end I believe that the best solution is to have the slide milled.
Business_Casual
10-29-10, 22:29
Just for reference, the correct way to use a red dot sight is to focus your eyes on the target and move the dot onto the center of the target with both eyes open.
B_C
So having seen a bunch of RDS's on pistols in all the SHOT show info I've been reading, I have to ask...
Does the additional weight on the slide add to more felt recoil?
I realize they are really light, but aren't pistol slide weight/springs/caliber all "tuned" to work together? I haven't seen where adding one makes a difference in reliability in most black pistols, but something more finicky like a 1911 could see some issues right?
RDS's are fairly new to me on rifles and I've never even seen one up close on a pistol, so humor me. :D
Alaskapopo
01-19-11, 16:14
So having seen a bunch of RDS's on pistols in all the SHOT show info I've been reading, I have to ask...
Does the additional weight on the slide add to more felt recoil?
I realize they are really light, but aren't pistol slide weight/springs/caliber all "tuned" to work together? I haven't seen where adding one makes a difference in reliability in most black pistols, but something more finicky like a 1911 could see some issues right?
RDS's are fairly new to me on rifles and I've never even seen one up close on a pistol, so humor me. :D
If it was a problem you would have seen reports on the issue by now. Its not an issue as the sights are very very light.
Pat
jsbsmarine
01-19-11, 23:18
Who are the smiths out there who can mill the slides on a glock/M&P?
I know of Bowie tactical, onesourcetactical, and I believe there was a third person who had an even shorter turn around time.
Thanks!
GunSlinger
01-20-11, 08:35
My two have been done by Bowie but my Brah "Mr. Parker" had his done by hatfields gunsmithing in Virginia in quick time.
http://www.hatfieldsgunsmithing.com/
I know it was done right because he had a stuck case last Sunday and cleared it using the RMR to rack the side against the control box at the range with all the force needed to clear that case.(didn't even put a mark on the RMR)
I saw this at the Springfield Armory booth at SHOT yesterday:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/underlourd/DSC_2225.jpg
On a side note, the woman you can see in the pic behind the 1911 was working the booth. SA did not follow the trend of having hot women work the booth.
jsbsmarine
01-20-11, 12:32
Thanks gunslinger, i'll check him out.
Brimstone, good thing the camera can only focus on one object.... :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-20-11, 13:06
I saw this at the Springfield Armory booth at SHOT yesterday:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/underlourd/DSC_2225.jpg
On a side note, the woman you can see in the pic behind the 1911 was working the booth. SA did not follow the trend of having hot women work the booth.
Trying to make the Aimpoint look small.
You know it is going to be someone's wife.
I'm sure they offer dovetail mounts, but they are awful. They ride too high to get a good sight picture reliably with your natural point of aim. So before you try to find some way out of it Littlelebowski nailed it.
My sight: http://www.lawenforcementsales.com/images/Trijicon_Scopes/Accessories/MS04.jpg
So I ended up with a Trijicon MS04 as part of a purchase of an ACOG and just purchased a GSG-1911 that I was planning to put it on. Ideally I'd love to have the slide milled and install it that way, but (1) Not sure if it's possible on this firearm (anyone?), and (2) Not sure I want to spend $175 to put a $300 sight on a $350 pistol. I'd assume I'd end up having to sell the sight with the pistol once the milling work is done or at least sell it to someone who has same or similar sight to put on it. If I ever end up with a 'real' pistol I want to put it on, I too would then be left with a milled slide I can no longer put an iron site on.
So, with all that said, (A) Am I thinking straight on this?, and (B) Just how awful would the dovetail mount be if my intended use is to kill cans / clays and shoot at targets (not competitive target shooting, just recreational stuff)? What makes them so awful and can anything be done to make them tolerable for plinking and shooting for fun?
I understand I'm posting in a forum that seems to have far more serious intent, but this is not a duty pistol, so please keep my intended 'fun' use in mind.
Also, I'm having a hard time trying to find a Trijicon mount for the sight I have. I believe mine to be the micro-sight (seems identical to jpoint?) So, is this the dovetail mount I need?
http://www.cedhk.com/shop/product_images/n/157/JPA-NV__00637_zoom.jpg
If it is strictly for fun and no lives are at risk, do whatever you want, as it simply does not matter.
mine in bold
My sight: http://www.lawenforcementsales.com/images/Trijicon_Scopes/Accessories/MS04.jpg
So I ended up with a Trijicon MS04 as part of a purchase of an ACOG and just purchased a GSG-1911 that I was planning to put it on. Ideally I'd love to have the slide milled and install it that way, but (1) Not sure if it's possible on this firearm (anyone?),
If you have some pictures of your gun that would help, but generally I need to actually have the slide in hand to determine this for sure.
From the pictures I found here (http://www.gsg-waffen.de/site/images/stories/waffen/gsg1911/general/gsg1911-02.png) it looks like your MS04 can be mounted on this slide with a different rear sight behind the MS04.
I can also fabricate a filler plate that will go in place of the sight if you move it to another gun.
and (2) Not sure I want to spend $175 to put a $300 sight on a $350 pistol.
If no adapter plate is required to allow the mounting screw holes a place to exist, then I charge $125 for one off jobs like this.
I'd assume I'd end up having to sell the sight with the pistol once the milling work is done or at least sell it to someone who has same or similar sight to put on it. If I ever end up with a 'real' pistol I want to put it on, I too would then be left with a milled slide I can no longer put an iron site on.
See above.
So, with all that said, (A) Am I thinking straight on this?, and (B) Just how awful would the dovetail mount be if my intended use is to kill cans / clays and shoot at targets (not competitive target shooting, just recreational stuff)? What makes them so awful and can anything be done to make them tolerable for plinking and shooting for fun?
I understand I'm posting in a forum that seems to have far more serious intent, but this is not a duty pistol, so please keep my intended 'fun' use in mind.
Also, I'm having a hard time trying to find a Trijicon mount for the sight I have. I believe mine to be the micro-sight (seems identical to jpoint?) So, is this the dovetail mount I need?
That looks like it might be the correct mount based on the pictures I found of this gun. A custom mount can be fabricated for your slide for sure. I've made them for CZ's before. PM or email me for details.
http://www.cedhk.com/shop/product_images/n/157/JPA-NV__00637_zoom.jpg
charmcitycop
06-11-11, 10:59
.......
From a size perspective the RMR is certainly more pistol friendly. And, there are a number of Concealed Carry and now a duty holster available for RMR equipped pistols.
I don't have any experience the Aimpoint so I can't say how they might differ in actual use.
Is there any preference between the Trijicon RMR and the Aimpoint T1 Micro for use on a handgun?
Does the RMR style lend itself better to use on a handgun than the T1 style?
I am curious if there is any difference between the "reflex" style window of the RMR and the "tube" style window of the T1.
The handgun in question is a TacSol/Ruger MkIII with a receiver mounted rail.
It is my suppressor host and "test bed" of sorts for certain concepts, like CTC laser grips.
I would like to try a red dot style sight on it 1) for added fun and 2) to see if the concept has validity for me on a defensive handgun.
mine in bold
MrMiller,
The picture you found is basically the model I have except different grips and minus a short tactical rail underneath the barrel. Thanks so much for the reply and I am interested. I will PM you.
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