View Full Version : Help me understand what we are NOW doing in Afghanistan...
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 12:39
My nephew getting shot in the chest a few days ago that his personal armor protected him from, and him and his buddies getting their vehicles blown up underneath them, twice this year, several of his buddies killed or maimed, as well as other stories just like this from friends and news sources, has me asking myself, "WHY?"
Help me understand, at this time, with our present mission focus, WHY?
I fully supported the Taliban removal by sending them to their Creator, often in carpet-bombed pieces. Although I think we gave the Taliban far too much time to flee to Iran/Pakistan and scatter to tribal areas before we began our war in Afganistan, I believe we did a grand job initially.
But then, in my opinion, of one not in the military, nor familiar with what is happening on the ground, except from what I read, see and hear from troops, contractors, journalists, our MISSION CHANGED. It appears that we shifted from "kill them all, let their god sort them out" removal of the Taliban to "NATION BUILDING" and propping up a government and political leaders that are NOT our friends and don't want us there.
It seems to me that we are trying to "build a nation" with a stone-age mix of old, ignorant tribal leaders, only interested in their tribal power and lands, and third-world urbanites. It seems that most do not want the Taliban back in power, but they don't want us there either. It seems that the people of Afganistan are not willing to do what must be done to ensure the Taliban nevers comes back, which is why they can bury so many IED's and stage so many ambushes, and we do not get informed by the "people" or "tribal leaders" that such activity is going on in their lands. So we continue to get vehicles blown up and troops killed and maimed... all the while, the haji fighters HIDE amongst the "people" that we are trying to help, with full support of the populace. How can you fight that without just destroying the whole village for being willing accomplices and enemy refuges?
At this point, with what I know about what is going on over there, as well as what I know about muslims and the "brotherhood" that binds them together over those they call infidels, I cannot think of a reason why we should be NOW over there...
The mission has changed to one I think is not doable the way we are fighting it now, in fact, it is not a mission we should be doing at all. I hear from many fronts that action is picking up over there and troops are frustrated and disillusioned with how we are fighting this "war." The $$$ we spend daily and the equipment and resources that get destroyed and consumed is mind-boggling. It is bankrupting this country...
For what, I ask sincerely? To support a government that will topple as soon as we leave or join up with their muslim brothers in the Taliban? To prop up people who take $$$ from Iran? To destabilize Pakistan?
It grieves me to see so many good American soldiers killed for what I think is our flawed mission...
What do I not understand about this present war in Afganistan and the MISSION that we now have? Do we now have a Pentagon and DoD who want to fight without "innocents" collateral damage? (WAR is hell on earth... never has been done cleanly.... ever) What do I not understand?
Rmpl
Business_Casual
10-27-10, 12:48
We back the wrong guy for President - there and here.
Also we minced around the border with Pakistan pretending we couldn't do anything in the area without setting off our allies, while Musharif basically played DoD and DoS for chumps.
B_C
The United States' current Afghan and global counter-terrorism military missions are confused by a lack of national will, leadership, and strategic vision by the past and current Presidents of the United States.
There was and is a lack of definition of victory and desired end-state.
If it's to prevent another attack like that on 9-11 then we need to kill the cause at its source -- not to treat symptoms like a half-treated cancer, wound, or infection.
We are now throwing money and lives into huge holes in the ground without a defined "Where we want to be" mutually understood by the people of the United States and those we're trying to deter.
Even a caveman understands not to mess with another tribe if it means massive retaliation -- like being wiped out or slaughtered in Biblical proportions.
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 13:17
We back the wrong guy for President - there and here.
In fairness, the MISSION SHIFT happened under BUSH and his administration. Obama for once is right, he did INHERIT a mess... But he continues with the same FLAWED MISSION...
Rmpl
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 13:23
Even a caveman understands not to mess with another tribe if it means massive retaliation -- like being wiped out or slaughtered in Biblical proportions.
Yes. YHWH knows how to command an army and WIN... He also understands the corruption of the "loaf" by allowing "yeast" to remain... The battle depicted in Revelation when the Messiah returns as the Victorious King is how you fight a war! No quarter! Time for mercy is past...
Rmpl
Von Rheydt
10-27-10, 14:37
From what I understand the troops are in Afgahnistan attempting to stabilise the place so that in the future Chinese mineral mining companies have no problems.
The place is rich with minerals. The Russians knew this and went partway to exploring the potential of mining the place by producing decent geological surveys.
The Chinese have bought the rights to these mineral depositis from the Afgahn Govt.
I'll bet thats news to some.
From what I understand the troops are in Afgahnistan attempting to stabilise the place so that in the future Chinese mineral mining companies have no problems.
The place is rich with minerals. The Russians knew this and went partway to exploring the potential of mining the place by producing decent geological surveys.
The Chinese have bought the rights to these mineral depositis from the Afgahn Govt.
I'll bet thats news to some.
maybe the chinese will forgive some of that money we owe them if we get afganistan stabilized for them... or not. :mad:
Even a caveman understands not to mess with another tribe if it means massive retaliation -- like being wiped out or slaughtered in Biblical proportions.
+1
Ancient people need an ancient style of warfare brought against them.
Bombing their towns and killing them all is the only way this problem is ever going to get solved.
When the Egyptians, Romans, Vikings, Mongols, etc went to war, they killed whole regions of people and took the rest into slavery.
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 16:23
So far I agree with every reply... but it is not helping me understand why we should stay there a day longer...
Do we stay for the honor of and blood of our countrymen spilled there? To not let their deaths be in vain? To leave victorious, rather beaten down like the Russians?
If so, it will be at least 2+ years before the flawed mission will change, and even then I have my doubts any Republican or Libertarian President will unleash the full power and might of the US Military unrestrained...
As a fan of the early writings of Special Forces Sniper, SFC Steven Barry, now retired and in exile, the controversial Editor of "The Special Forces Underground" publication back in the 90's, as well as the other SF shadow writers of that publication, I have come to believe, from their testimony, that we no longer have WAR FIGHTERS in command within DoD or the Pentagon. There may be true Pattons or McArthur's within the ranks, but they are being oppressed and are not setting the ROE, strategies and tactics. Rather, it seems our wars are now commanded by politically-minded brass, JAG and lawyers...
If not, then do we actually "join with" the leftists and Obama and demand the troops be withdrawn NOW?
Rmpl
I don't believe we have any interest in Afghanistan, per se, rather what will stop this from happening again?
http://www.jacktimes.com/media/files/2010/09/022.jpg
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Pentagon-Crash18may06c.jpg
http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/ciai/socst/ghgonline/turnpoint/images/content/tp63/pa.jpg
I don't believe we have any interest in Afghanistan, per se, rather what will stop this from happening again?
http://www.jacktimes.com/media/files/2010/09/022.jpg
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Pentagon-Crash18may06c.jpg
http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/ciai/socst/ghgonline/turnpoint/images/content/tp63/pa.jpg
You're right, we should invade Saudi Arabia.
I agree. However, the vast majority of the terrorists who took over those airplanes in those pictures and on that day were from Saudi Arabia.
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 17:20
Then we'd have the entire Muslim world against us for at least a thousand years.
The Muslims that actually believe EVERY word of the Quran and DO THEM, the ones the world calls "Islamic Extremists," do believe with every fiber of their being that they are indeed in a long-term Jihad against the "Great Satan" and that will never change, no matter what we do, less allow ourselves to be conquered, become Muslims, and adopt Sharia Law. No matter how many Muslims we "liberate," like Bosnia, Kosovo, Somolia, Afganistan, Iraq, etc..., they make it their lives mission to destroy us, kill our people, and defeat us.
And they are so violent, even among their own people, that no peaceful, "pew-sitter" muslim dare oppose them without risk of their head cut off, hanged, stoned, or death by some other nasty method...
Do we get this party started FOR REAL now or do we pass it on to our now young children in the future, or their children? :confused:
I'd even enlist my old, fat a$$ if that fight were for real...
Rmpl
Americans have forgotten that already.
In a society full of distractions, Americans forget so quickly what it is to fight a war. Particularly, a religious war that spans many generations. Mostly because the influence of the enemy rarely effects us on our soil. The last attack that we received that gained any attention was 9/11 and unfortunately that is too long to keep a any element of patriotic momentum in a nation of individual identity.
The Europeans were able to keep a 200 year war(the crusades) going thanks to religious fervor through the communal entity of the church. War is one of the few enterprises in which collective society tends to be better than a society made up of individual empowerment.
My feeling is that we will have to suffer major losses, and the Muslims will have to have large gains in conquest before the world wakes up and fights them toe-to-toe. Like I said though, the light of the west will have to be at the verge of being extinguished, when we are a cornered rat, that we'll fight be effectively.
variablebinary
10-27-10, 18:09
Not sure why we are there now, but I know how we got there...
http://www.fjtm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WTC-Tower-Starts-to-Crumble-on-9-11.jpg
My nephew getting shot in the chest a few days ago that his personal armor protected him from, and him and his buddies getting their vehicles blown up underneath them, twice this year, several of his buddies killed or maimed, as well as other stories just like this from friends and news sources, has me asking myself, "WHY?"
Help me understand, at this time, with our present mission focus, WHY?
Afghan war policy has been a disaster since day one. Some people just need to be killed, they are those people.
Cagemonkey
10-27-10, 18:42
Afghanistan is a lost cause. While we fight the Taliban and El Qaida, A-stan continues to produce over 95% of the worlds Opium and Heroin. A-stan is a proxy of Pakistan. Pakistan is the real problem. Their ISI (Intelligence Service) created and supports the Taliban and supports Al Qaida. Pakistan is involved in proliferating nuclear technology to Iran, N. Korea, Syria and any other wacko's with an anti west point of view. Pakistan is more afraid of India and uses A-stan as leverage. Pakistan is very cozy with the Chinese. They've even given China a F16 for T&E. Luckily the US under Bush, is actively engaging India. In the 21st Century India is a good Ally to have. The US needs to hold Pakistan accountable. Trying to make a nation of A-stan is a waste of time and resources. The British Empire never conquered it. Neither did the Russians. A-stan just needs to be randomly punished with punitive Military Expeditions. Just my opinion.
Von Rheydt
10-27-10, 19:57
Question: How long have you had a muslim based problem here in the USA?
Answer: Since before Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President.
Check out the Barbary Wars. As a result of the American War of Independence there was a bit of a lapse in Naval protection of merchant ships in the Atlantic areas. This allowed the North African Barbary pirates to more or less roam at will on the sea's. The effect was that ships were plundered and slaves were taken.
When I say slaves I don't mean down home tobacco pickin' slaves. I mean that the American and European crews of ships and inhabitants of small costal towns were taken and put into slavery in North Africa. In all around 1,500,000 people.
Jefferson was active in his political assaults on muslims. At one meeting with the the representative of Tripoli:
But one cannot get around what Jefferson heard when he went with John Adams to wait upon Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785. When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, America’s two foremost envoys were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
quote: Christopher Hitchens, City Journal, 2007.
Full text (read it, its interesting): http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_urbanities-thomas_jefferson.html
The then fledgling USA was also in a situation where it had to pay "a commision" to Tripoli to ensure the safety of its merchant fleet.
So, no, muslims and the USA is not new a new thing it all started over 200 years ago. Any Marine who knows where the Corps hymn came from should know the history behind the words:
From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli............
Yes they are referring to that Tripoli in North Africa. Specifically when the USMC went in and Kicked burka at the Battle of Derne in 1805.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marines'_Hymn
Go, read. Its fascinating stuff. The history of the conflict between muslims and european christians has been going on for nearly a thousand years. And as an academic observation, try putting up a church in Riyadh against trying to build a mosque in Europe or the USA........so who is winning?
RogerinTPA
10-27-10, 20:16
Then we'd have the entire Muslim world against us for at least a thousand years.
We should kill terrorists and their blood lines wherever we find them, regardless of borders. No refuge, no respite, no mercy.
Bush 43 was right when he stated, "You're either with us or with the terrorists." Americans have forgotten that already.
Agreed. We cannot win a war against ideology. Find the extremist and kill them to the last man, including their families on a global scale. Any American injured, killed or captured any where in the world by anyone, should have the full force of the US Military brought against the offenders and the countries who harbor them.
Belmont31R
10-27-10, 20:40
Im not sure how we got to the point of going there to kill terrorists, and 8 years later we are trying to kiss the ****ers asses by nation building and restricting our troops from killing terrorists.
No one has fully controlled Afghanistan in a long time if ever. The 2nd we declare mission complete, and bring our troops home the jihads will flood back in taking back control. Anyone think Karzai is going to lead a jihad free country?
If we want to deny the terrorists the ability to strike us the only thing that will do that is to riddle their bodies with bullets. We can't stay there forever so the only logical choice is to kill as many as possible with everything else being secondary, and then leave at a later date. Not kill a few, build a failed state, and 5 minutes after we leave the Taliban takes back control.
I agree Pakistan is ****ing us, too, but we need their ports and roads for war materials in Afghanistan.
Simple. The Saudis have money, they use this money to fund groups such as the taliban and in return we go fighting proxy wars instead of fighting the financier of islamic terrorist world wide.
Oh and we invite them over for dinner from time to time...
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 21:42
Uuughhhhhh! I was really hoping someone would explain to me why we are doing the MISSION we are now doing so that I could justify in my heart the blood and injuries to young American kids over there, the national treasures lost... I thought this forum would be the place to find that answer...
But it seems that those who have responded think as I do, that there is only ONE PATH to victory... and we turned off of it many years ago. Possibly even decades ago...
So what to do now? Just shut down our minds and hearts and put a "I support the Troops" bumper sticker on our vehicles? All the while, every week, another plane load of flag-draped coffins comes CONUS with mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters devastated by the loss? Where young men daily are crippled and maimed...
But Americans, almost all the ones I know, do not have the will and the stomach for what must be done to win with an enemy like the one we now face. No true'er words were spoken by Jack Nicholson... "You can't handle the TRUTH!"
I think it really went south when we allowed the PRESS into the Theatre of War... Same with all wars in the past... The Dogs of War best hunt in darkness...
I wish I knew the answer.... Prayer is the only thing I know at this point.
Rmpl
Rmplstlskn
10-27-10, 22:14
Go, read. Its fascinating stuff. The history of the conflict between muslims and european christians has been going on for nearly a thousand years. And as an academic observation, try putting up a church in Riyadh against trying to build a mosque in Europe or the USA........so who is winning?
Yes Von Rheydt, this war we are in is indeed an ancient one, one that may technically have never stopped, just brief periods of cease fire. The Hashishin and the Old Man of the Mountain are alive and well and few even know of them, or even know it is them we fight...
حشّاشين Hashishin (assassins) and Sabbah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin)
Rmpl
parishioner
10-27-10, 23:05
I think it really went south when we allowed the PRESS into the Theatre of War... Same with all wars in the past... The Dogs of War best hunt in darkness...
I think this is a pretty big part of it. Like I've said before, the average civilian isn't mentally equipped to handle the realities of war and its well known fact you cant win a war if you don't have the full support of your countrymen. So when we have the media showing war to the average American, its not a surprise we have a lack of support.
The Tet Offensive was a strategy that failed miserably for the North. We straight up stomped their ass. But thanks to the MSM and Walter Cronkite the Tet offensive succeeded beyond its wildest dreams.
John_Wayne777
10-28-10, 07:31
What we're doing now is floundering because a political party decided they could gain a short term political advantage by making war into a political issue, and they subsequently bombarded the American public with a full court press of bad information with the cooperation of their allies in the mainstream press.
We will continue to flounder because Afghanistan is still a political issue. The politicians We The People were stupid enough to empower with our vote are playing politics with war plans by introducing a "surge" while simultaneously telling the whole world we're out of there by July. That such a statement, aimed primarily at domestic political concerns, gives enormous incentive to our enemy and enormous disincentive to those whom we need to be our allies to kill the enemy is either beyond the extremely limited knowledge of our Ivy League administration or, worse, isn't something that they care about. Afghanistan is not an easy problem by any stretch...but it is not made any easier by the profoundly ridiculous decisions of the people we've put in charge of things.
Our forces are in this situation because we as a population have demonstrated a spectacular lack of vision, a spectacular lack of understanding, a spectacular lack of intellect, and a spectacular willingness to let those people on TV tell us what to think. The flag-draped coffins are on our collective heads.
Blood is the price of bad decisions at the voting booth.
Rmplstlskn
10-28-10, 08:35
Blood is the price of bad decisions at the voting booth.
But WHO would have let loose the full might of the US Military?
The MISSION CHANGE happened under Bush. Every Republican candidate at the time was for keeping the status quo that Bush established. None said we need to wipe them off the face of the earth, at least in Afganistan and Iraq, where we could do that...
Matter of fact, if I heard from Bush and the Republican candidates one more time that "Islam is a PEACEFUL religion," I would projectile vomit...
Several times he used the word "CRUSADE" in his speeches about the two wars, yet he also stroked the Muslims with "peaceful religion" speeches. I still wonder what message he was sending, and to whom... If Bush deep down knew it was a RELIGIOUS WAR and he was telling them that he understood this by using the word, CRUSADE, then he has a crappy way of fighting a religious war...
The Libertarian candidate wanted us out completely...
The Democratic candidates wanted us out as well, but in defeat...
So what could the American voter do? Moreso, what WAR MISSION option do we have this election? The Dems want us out in shame, and the Repubs want us to fight the misguided mission that we now have, the one that motivated me to post this message...
Rmpl
Yes, both Afghanistan and Iraq are a mess. They will continue to be a mess; this is a fact that is undeniable. But here's the issue that I think many of you are missing--as long as we are engaged, we have a strategic presence in the region which allows us to use more determined rhetoric with other actors/nation states.
Diplomacy and negotiation do not work well in Iraq or Afghanistan (or throughout the rest of the Middle East). The people are not willing to come to the table because they feel—and rightly so—that we are only going to be there for a minimum amount of time. The US did not grapple with the concept that this is truly a generational conflict—not a police action. I see this first hand with the people I work with. Some feel betrayed. Some want us gone—the vast majority of the intelligent/educated/professional Iraqis absolutely do not want us to leave. If you’re confused on this issue, the summary is that we should not have walked away from Iraq in 1993 without removing Saddam. That has and will continue to be the biggest issue we face when dealing with Iraq.
Regardless of the reasoning for the conflicts, the truth of the matter is now we have to determine a go forward state that supports the following objectives (at a minimum)
1. Deny terrorists a safe haven for training and operations.
2. Contribute to regional stability through force projection and surgical application where needed
3. Engage nation states or opposing forces directly on their soil instead of letting them bring the fight to the continental United States.
4. Contain the spread of terrorism through nation building
These objectives are being met. This can only be accomplished with boots on the ground and having people in harm’s way. The Department of State PRTs are just as important as the Brigade Combat Teams.
Many of you feel detached and disconnected by these conflicts. I can understand that. But from an insider’s perspective—I am not confused regarding what we are trying to do here. We have to have the willpower and intestinal fortitude to stick with this mission. The only way these people will trust us is to be proven trustworthy. The past ten years may seem like a long time, but the memory here is long. The Afghans remember the 80s very well, and when the Soviets stepped out we failed to step in. The Iraqi’s remember well their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters being executed for assisting the US before and after Desert Storm.
This will always be a situation requiring decades of effort. There is no quick fix and the emotional memory of a person is very long.
I've been here for four years, if we don't embrace the concept that we will need to keep people here for fourty years--this mission will be at risk.
Dirk Williams
10-28-10, 09:47
Shut it down, bring our people home. I think we need to deal with our own issues at home first, then play the policeman of the world.
WE will be attacked again regardless if we occupy or not. How can we be effective in someone else's land when we can't even manage our own country.
D Williams
Von Rheydt
10-28-10, 10:02
Shut it down, bring our people home. I think we need to deal with our own issues at home first, then play the policeman of the world.
WE will be attacked again regardless if we occupy or not. How can we be effective in someone else's land when we can't even manage our own country.
D Williams
You're right Dirk thats what should happen, but it will not happen though. Not when it gives an excuse to keep troops in a region where an unstable nation has access to nuclear weapons.
Rmplstlskn, as I recall the British excuse, sorry that should be reason, for being there has changed, as I recall, at least 3 times. It proved embarassing a year or so ago when the head of the Army gave one reason for being there to the press and the Prime Minister gave another reason.
Shut it down, bring our people home. I think we need to deal with our own issues at home first, then play the policeman of the world.
WE will be attacked again regardless if we occupy or not. How can we be effective in someone else's land when we can't even manage our own country.
D Williams
We're definitely not "playing" policeman. And the world is a very small place. We can't focus on our problems at home WITHOUT dealing with problems abroad. Regional instability in any part of the world has a domino effect on the US in myriad ways. Its one giant sandbox now and we're all in it.
Xenophobia is the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
Even with the political issues at home, we are managing our own country. It might not be to your liking (or mine), but the fact is we are still conducting business. We aren't fighting each other for the scraps off a table and as far as I can tell--most of of America is overweight.
There is no way to stick our heads in the sand and hope this goes away. Right now, walking away from this is like handing Iraq and Afghanistan to Iran on a golden platter. If you think thats OK, then you do not understand what is at stake or why.
If I start a thread war here, thats not going to do any good either. I can provide a lengthy reading list that will provide the necessary insight. It will consume several months of your spare time.
As far as ROE, here's the best way I can explain it.
For every bad guy we kill, we create a multiplication of bad guys to have to kill.
It is more important to convert their ideology than kill them. We can only accomplish a win by going after their "hearts and minds". There are times and situations where we will have to eliminate opposition undiplomatically, but every time we do we are digging oursevles in deeper.
We have to wear people down from wanting to live in caves and fight us. The problem is we have a hardened and determined enemy that is good at this life style. If we are not providing worthy alternatives--like education, jobs, health care--then we are not going to be capable of rooting out the problem.
The problem with Afghanistan is that the enemy has been fighting forever, most do not know what its like to live in a house with central air, Tivo "House" or surf Amazon. The leadership of these organizations has the benefit of westernization, but some where along the way rejected our way of life to pursue their own agenda. The unfortuante part is Joe average talib or insurgent doesn't know any better and the guy with the money/power/guns is telling him how evil we are, using Islam as weapon and twisiting their belief structure. On top of that, they are losing family members which further empowers the bad guy leadership to recruit new blood and bring out the human animal.
Walking away only gives them an unlimited new basis for recruiting more opposition.
In many ways, this is a civilization level conflict. We have to prove that rule of law and cooperation is the way to work as a people.
Blood is the price of bad decisions at the voting booth.
Exactly!
This seems relevant
How to Turn the Taliban Against Al Qaeda - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/opinion/27atran.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
we need to kill the cause at its source -
I agree. Go there, kill the BGs, go home. I am not talking invasion, just incursions. And no throwing money into rat holes.
Belmont31R
10-28-10, 12:07
Yes, both Afghanistan and Iraq are a mess. They will continue to be a mess; this is a fact that is undeniable. But here's the issue that I think many of you are missing--as long as we are engaged, we have a strategic presence in the region which allows us to use more determined rhetoric with other actors/nation states.
Diplomacy and negotiation do not work well in Iraq or Afghanistan (or throughout the rest of the Middle East). The people are not willing to come to the table because they feel—and rightly so—that we are only going to be there for a minimum amount of time. The US did not grapple with the concept that this is truly a generational conflict—not a police action. I see this first hand with the people I work with. Some feel betrayed. Some want us gone—the vast majority of the intelligent/educated/professional Iraqis absolutely do not want us to leave. If you’re confused on this issue, the summary is that we should not have walked away from Iraq in 1993 without removing Saddam. That has and will continue to be the biggest issue we face when dealing with Iraq.
Regardless of the reasoning for the conflicts, the truth of the matter is now we have to determine a go forward state that supports the following objectives (at a minimum)
1. Deny terrorists a safe haven for training and operations.
2. Contribute to regional stability through force projection and surgical application where needed
3. Engage nation states or opposing forces directly on their soil instead of letting them bring the fight to the continental United States.
4. Contain the spread of terrorism through nation building
These objectives are being met. This can only be accomplished with boots on the ground and having people in harm’s way. The Department of State PRTs are just as important as the Brigade Combat Teams.
Many of you feel detached and disconnected by these conflicts. I can understand that. But from an insider’s perspective—I am not confused regarding what we are trying to do here. We have to have the willpower and intestinal fortitude to stick with this mission. The only way these people will trust us is to be proven trustworthy. The past ten years may seem like a long time, but the memory here is long. The Afghans remember the 80s very well, and when the Soviets stepped out we failed to step in. The Iraqi’s remember well their fathers, mothers, sons and daughters being executed for assisting the US before and after Desert Storm.
This will always be a situation requiring decades of effort. There is no quick fix and the emotional memory of a person is very long.
I've been here for four years, if we don't embrace the concept that we will need to keep people here for fourty years--this mission will be at risk.
I don't think we have enough troops there to provide security, and with their current leadership there is never going to be a unified nation.
America is not going to support us being there for 40 years.
I don't think Afghanistan is worth that amount of effort and money. I don't think it will be possible to reverse 2k years of living, and institute a central government that is strong enough and has enough support of the people to keep it from becoming a terrorist safe haven again. Hell we have 100k troops there, and we don't even control anything out of direct eye sight.
Rmplstlskn
10-28-10, 12:27
I don't think Afghanistan is worth that amount of effort and money. I don't think it will be possible to reverse 2k years of living, and institute a central government that is strong enough and has enough support of the people to keep it from becoming a terrorist safe haven again. Hell we have 100k troops there, and we don't even control anything out of direct eye sight.
I agree completely! There is NOTHING in A'stan that is worth the effort, committment and money needed to bring them to even 2nd world level. They do not want it, are not ready for it, and our lifestyles in many ways directly confronts and insults their muslim ways.
Even if there were mineral wealth, it would take COLONIZATION to make it worth the effort. We take over completely and move our people in... Engineers, construction, mining, etc... but that is not what we do anymore...
I'd rather COLONIZE Iraq for the OIL wealth than A'stan. We are accused of that already, so might as well do it and take their oil...
Rmpl
Dirk Williams
10-28-10, 12:31
Gentlman,
I perfectly understand what's not working, our current policy.
I fully understand the mind set that if we fight them there, then we don't fight them here. Poor policy poor or unrealistic outcome.
They ARE coming to a town near you soon.
Since when have we not been the worlds policeman. The lessons learned in "Nam" are lost or ignored here. We were playing world policeman then as well.
The real problem is this. THEY are here now, THEY are in Mexico now, THEY are keeping our focus on a land far far away while THEY slide in the back door.
THEY understand us better then we understandd ourselves. THEY are using our rules and logic against us.
Classic gurilla warefare, "Unlimited time table, Popular support of the people, Unlimited resources".
THEY are now in our government, and THEY are running the press, which like vietnam,set policy and PRE conditioned the people.
THOSE who were protesting are now THEY and they have doaned suit and tie and also slipped in the back door.
We can argue policy till the cows come home.
My question is simple.
What is the right thing to do, for we the people.
D Williams
Rmplstlskn
10-28-10, 12:47
For every bad guy we kill, we create a multiplication of bad guys to have to kill.
Yes, that has always been the downside of WAR throughout history, and even brutal oppression eventually can't hold it together, and the invader is beaten back.
It is more important to convert their ideology than kill them. We can only accomplish a win by going after their "hearts and minds".
That sounds good Ryan, but I think we have NO CHANCE in going after their hearts and minds, not as long as Islam is their religion. We can't even show them a Bible or use history to prove Muhammad was a seizure-prone, child molester with a brain disorder, so how can we ever "convert their ideology?"
If we are not providing worthy alternatives--like education, jobs, health care--then we are not going to be capable of rooting out the problem.
You lost me here, Ryan... I'll rebel against my government before we do those things in Afganistan when we have such dire need of the SAME THING here...
In many ways, this is a civilization level conflict. We have to prove that rule of law and cooperation is the way to work as a people.
I'm not sold on it, sorry. I think we need to GET OUT and LEAVE them alone but watch them closely. If they create a terror training area, we blow it up. We "PROFILE" anyone leaving that country trying to get here. We isolate ourselves from them. We respond with hellacious force when they provoke or try to harm us in any way...
I guess what I am saying, as my original and subsequent posts try to explain, is that I so far do not see any reason why we are still there with the CHANGED MISSION we now have. We need to bring our troops HOME now. I have not been shown any justification for putting our troops in warm's way any longer. This is an odd place to be in as it seems it puts me in the same camp as the anti-war freaks and many libertarians and democrats ON THIS MATTER.
Rmpl
Rmplstlskn
10-28-10, 13:17
What I find surprising so far... is how many here agree with me and I agree with them.
Honestly, when I posted the first post, being so many here with military, contractor, military vendor associations, I thought I would get a mix of TEXTUAL BEATINGS by some who resented I dare question the worthiness of what we are doing over there in A'stan and devalueing the sacrifices of so many who have given their lives for this MISSION, maybe called an anti-war troll, and maybe a few long posts trying to explain what I did not understand about the MISSION over there.
Oddly, I find myself among others who think the way I think about this NEW MISSION in the War in Afganistan.
So why are our candidates that want our votes not talking like WE DO here?
Rmpl
Dirk Williams
10-28-10, 13:19
Dude, Your not anti war, Your position is pro American.
I seem to recognize Ryanns position as something I heard/learned in my freshman sociology college classes in 1975. POST Vietman
My favorite gun teacher" Cooper" once said something like Introducing democracy to the muslin world is like taking a horse to a BBQ. Simplistic but true. Im amused by his insight
We have to win it at home first. THEY are counting on us remaining focused on global projects, not home projects.
It's interesting I can see our current government qitting, giving up, and joining them. Our very own government lacks direction, they lack resolve.
We can make change with a simple cast of a ballot. VOTE and encourage everybody you know to do the same.
Best of luck to you all.
D Williams
These are lessons that we learned in Vietnam. The US Government failed to apply them at the outset of this conflict. We're back in the same boat, but with different players and different stakes. I completely agree with summary of the problems at home becoming critical, but the can of worms that is opened over here is not anywhere near put to bed.
If the US falls apart, it will because the citizenry making terrible choices at the ballot boxes. I agree with the starship troopers analogy of service guarantees citizenship. We, as a nation, take our liberty for granted because so few have had to fight to keep it.
I personally believe we should have compulsory service for ALL able bodied 18 year olds, 2 years minimum.
What we've done and what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is part of securing our borders. We also need to be vigilant at home and look for the threats that will eventually make it through.
Nationalism is not a disease, its a cure. We are failing as a nation because so few take pride in what we stand for or represent to the rest of the world. When people take vacations to Europe and then tell everyone they meet they are Canadian instead of American--that makes me sick.
Right now, we have to live up to our obligations. We need to set realistic goals for our missions and then we need to do everything possible to achieve them. That has been the issue here all along, failing to set those goals and then politically douchewaffling over the execution.
The more we fail to elect the kind of leadership required to actually keep our country running--the worse things are going to get. I'm really watching this election closely because there is so much riding on it. I have a strong sense that we could be a couple of years away from civil conflict or even dissolution at the current rate of decay.
We've lost our moral compass, abandoned core values and there is a large percentage of leaders that would like to do away with the Constitution. I don't know how it got this bad, but I know how much worse it can be. There are rivers of shit flowing in the gutters in downtown Baghdad. The whole country is one giant trash heap. There are limited basic services and there is no such thing as security.
All of this and more can be ours if we keep on our present course.
That said, I still firmly believe in honoring our committments. Especially when its painful, that is the true test of what you believe. Can you suck it up beyond all measure of pain and still keep going? I don't see us doing that as as nation on any front--whether its here in Iraq or on the streets of DC. All I can say is I stood my ground, I fought the good fight and I'm going to keep doing it--because that is what I feel I am called to do.
I believe we can only be great as a nation, if we continue to embody what greatness is to the rest of the world. If we pack up our gear, tuck tail and head home, we have failed. If we cannot find a way to be the United States we were during and after WW2, we will fall apart. Can you imagine rationing chocolate in today's America? Or gas? Or metal? Americans do not understand the meaning of sacrifice the way we used too, and its going to take hard lessons to re-learn the values we've lost.
10% unemployment may be bad, but try 50%. It could definitely happen. We are not there yet, but we're on the way.
Belmont31R
10-28-10, 16:05
I believe we can only be great as a nation, if we continue to embody what greatness is to the rest of the world. If we pack up our gear, tuck tail and head home, we have failed. If we cannot find a way to be the United States we were during and after WW2, we will fall apart. Can you imagine rationing chocolate in today's America? Or gas? Or metal? Americans do not understand the meaning of sacrifice the way we used too, and its going to take hard lessons to re-learn the values we've lost.
I don't think we should tuck tail and run home but I personally do not buy into the hearts and minds BS for Afghanistan.
That place has never been a unified & secure country. I do not think we are going to do it, either. Especially not with Karzai.
And we've been hearing about hearts and minds for years now yet the situation there from all Ive gathered is worse off now than it was 6 years ago. I don't doubt its a valid strategy in the right circumstance but not this one, and certainly not the way its been executed so far.
I don't think thats a valid strategy to help keep America safe, and that is why we are there isnt it? Are we really betting on Karzai running the country to such a degree we can go home?
In Vietnam we had 500k+ troops there, and bombed the **** out of them. We still didn't put the effort into Vietnam we did WW2 but a lot more than even Afghanistan.
Maybe the next time a nuke will go off in an American city so we can get to war like its supposed to be done instead of this BS of 100k troops, a restricted ROE, and no clear path to victory.
Rmplstlskn
10-28-10, 20:17
I believe we can only be great as a nation, if we continue to embody what greatness is to the rest of the world. If we pack up our gear, tuck tail and head home, we have failed. If we cannot find a way to be the United States we were during and after WW2, we will fall apart.
Ryan, your text that I clipped off shows you to be a THINKING MAN and a PATRIOT, and I greatly admire that, even if we somewhat disagree on the text I quoted above. I would fight the Destroyers of this country, maybe even on our soil, next to your foxhole willingly...
But I have something for you to think about in your above text...
I believe it is HONORABLE and a true character test of being a GOOD MAN (or a GOOD NATION) to admit when one is WRONG... And if one is wrong, you do the best to correct it, but if you cannot correct it, then it is best to LET IT BE and let time HEAL it, learning from the mistake so it never happens again.
If we are WRONG in our present MISSION, the worst thing we can do is CONTINUE the wrong. Rather, we need to MAN UP, admit to the world that WE WENT ASTRAY from who we are as Americans, and LEAVE. I think the world would look much more favorably upon that path than if we just continue the carnage of BOTH SIDES, with no end point or possibility of victory (without substantial MISSION CHANGE).
There will of course be terrorists that view this as weakness, and let them. When they act on that assumption, we swope down and destroy them as if hell fell on them... Then we leave and allow the buzzards to clean up the mess... We do that until they know something is DIFFERENT about the USA...
Something to ponder...
Rmpl
Moose-Knuckle
10-28-10, 20:23
We've been at war since the Moors invaded Spain in 711AD, about 516 years before the first Crusade in 1095AD after Jerusalem fell to Islam in 1076AD.
If a hyper power like that of the US goverment wanted to win a war it would. There are more things at work than what meets the eye.
A question for you "turn the military loose/War on Islam" guys -
How come you don't go down to your local mosque and just shoot the place up? Or make an AMPHO bomb and level it? Heck, just a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline at the entry-ways would pry do the job as well.
Am wondering if you actually have courage of your convictions or just sit around masturbating to the idea of someone else doing your dirty work.... I mean, the worst they would do to you in most states is prison. And surely, your "patriotism" extends at least that far.
Belmont31R
10-28-10, 23:24
A question for you "turn the military loose/War on Islam" guys -
How come you don't go down to your local mosque and just shoot the place up? Or make an AMPHO bomb and level it? Heck, just a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline at the entry-ways would pry do the job as well.
Am wondering if you actually have courage of your convictions or just sit around masturbating to the idea of someone else doing your dirty work.... I mean, the worst they would do to you in most states is prison. And surely, your "patriotism" extends at least that far.
Except no one that Ive read has say go murder a bunch of innocent people on purpose.
You know there is a middle ground between murder and kiss ass.
Except no one that Ive read has say go murder a bunch of innocent people on purpose.
You know there is a middle ground between murder and kiss ass.
The OP seems to think it's a "War on Islam". I'm just wondering when he's going to get the guts to put some money where his mouth is.
If you think it is "kiss ass", imo, I think you have a very poor understanding of what we are doing.
Belmont31R
10-29-10, 01:10
The OP seems to think it's a "War on Islam". I'm just wondering when he's going to get the guts to put some money where his mouth is.
If you think it is "kiss ass", imo, I think you have a very poor understanding of what we are doing.
I didn't really get that from his posts but maybe Im wrong. It is a war against muslims. Just not ALL muslims.
In regards to kiss ass we are not executing the war to the magnitude I think we should be, and the ROE in some cases prevents us from killing our enemies. No Im not talking about leveling a village to kill one guy. Im talking about things like not being able to engage obvious FO's all alone on the side of a hill just because they don't have a weapons. You know like a guy with a set of binos and an icom.
Rmplstlskn
10-29-10, 07:27
A question for you "turn the military loose/War on Islam" guys -
How come you don't go down to your local mosque and just shoot the place up? Or make an AMPHO bomb and level it? Heck, just a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline at the entry-ways would pry do the job as well.
Am wondering if you actually have courage of your convictions or just sit around masturbating to the idea of someone else doing your dirty work.... I mean, the worst they would do to you in most states is prison. And surely, your "patriotism" extends at least that far.
That has to be the most knee-jerk, clueless to the CONTEXT of the whole thread reply I have seen in a long time... :confused:
Islam is an IDEOLOGY, you can't war against a thing/belief... How they act upon it, and who acts upon it is where war is waged.
aka: War on Terror, War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Fast Foods...etc...
Rmpl
I agree completely! There is NOTHING in A'stan that is worth the effort, committment and money needed to bring them to even 2nd world level. They do not want it, are not ready for it, and our lifestyles in many ways directly confronts and insults their muslim ways.
Even if there were mineral wealth, it would take COLONIZATION to make it worth the effort. We take over completely and move our people in... Engineers, construction, mining, etc... but that is not what we do anymore...
I'd rather COLONIZE Iraq for the OIL wealth than A'stan. We are accused of that already, so might as well do it and take their oil...
Rmpl
And therein lies the root of the problem. Read Sir Halford Mackinder, Kissinger and Brzezinski (and most recently F. William Engdahl).
Afghanistan is also minerally wealthy. It's been known since the mid 1800's despite the "just found" evidence of same.
Look up Bridas while you're at it, too.
Rmplstlskn
10-29-10, 22:30
And therein lies the root of the problem. Read Sir Halford Mackinder, Kissinger and Brzezinski (and most recently F. William Engdahl).
Afghanistan is also minerally wealthy. It's been known since the mid 1800's despite the "just found" evidence of same.
Look up Bridas while you're at it, too.
Aww, man... I am really trying to ignore the whole global conspiracy angle, cuz' that would mean we truly are fracked royally and would have to "fight the future." The Satori and Mandarins in control would only leave one hope...
Rmpl
There was and is a lack of definition of victory and desired end-state.
And as such, we have no mission. I would argue we have not had a real mission in Afghanistan since 2003.
We lack the national will to what needs to be done. As a govt we will not publicly recognized ISI's role as a bad actor. We will not strategically align ourselves with India (a potentially real and genuine ally) as a counterbalance to bad actors in both SW Asia and China.
So, given the current sad state of affairs, I would argue that it's time to pull out of Afghanistan, declare victory (in the same way Bush I did in Iraq I), and accept terrorism as a fact of life in the same way the Israelis do.
And by the way, this is, in fact, Obama's plan. Mark my words (or 'read my lips' if you prefer) Obama will declare 'victory' in Afghanistan just prior to the 2012 election.
I can just hear it now: "FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"
Anybody feeling Neo-Conned?
So, given the current sad state of affairs, I would argue that it's time to pull out of Afghanistan, declare victory (in the same way Bush I did in Iraq I), and accept terrorism as a fact of life in the same way the Israelis do.
This is pretty much where I am on the issue as well, with the proviso that we strike fast and hard against any and all attackers, both foreign and domestic, even if it pisses people off.
This is pretty much where I am on the issue as well, with the proviso that we strike fast and hard against any and all attackers, both foreign and domestic, even if it pisses people off.
In this vein, I would vastly expand our armed UAV program. Whenever we feel the need to slap down a foe, we simply send in the droids to "shock and awe" their national infrastructure. No need to invade, no need to put 'boots on the ground.'
Give 'em an offer they can't refuse. If they refuse, use the national equivalent breaking their knee caps.
In fact, I would ensure we have a completely predicable national response - diplomacy, sanctions, shock and awe, rinse and repeat. Pretty soon folks would get the idea.
I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Some I agree with, some I don't.
A great book is available that I own (it was 40% off at Books-A-Million) titled Obama's Wars by Bob Woodward. It appears to be a worthwhile read.
Rmplstlskn
10-31-10, 09:34
I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Some I agree with, some I don't.
A great book is available that I own (it was 40% off at Books-A-Million) titled Obama's Wars by Bob Woodward. It appears to be a worthwhile read.
I think we have distilled it down in this thread that most respondents want us out with the present mission and non-existant end point we now have. If I were a pollster, it would seem to be that 80% of gun owners on this site do not support the mission we now have, and that this mission is not worth one additional American life.
Although we seem to have had only one, maybe two, respondents who are actually in the two sand boxes presently (assumptions). So it is not an accurate poll...
But I am surprised to see that I am not such an oddball (in this matter, at least :laugh:) as I thought I would be told from various perspectives why I was full of chit and get with the program and stop whining just because this war hit close to home (nephew)...
I am not a big Woodward fan, so do you care to give us a Cliff Notes summary of "Obama's War?" Convince me it is worth getting, or even renting from the Library...
Rmpl
I think we have distilled it down in this thread that most respondents want us out with the present mission and non-existant end point we now have. If I were a pollster, it would seem to be that 80% of gun owners on this site do not support the mission we now have, and that this mission is not worth one additional American life.
Although we seem to have had only one, maybe two, respondents who are actually in the two sand boxes presently (assumptions). So it is not an accurate poll...
But I am surprised to see that I am not such an oddball (in this matter, at least :laugh:) as I thought I would be told from various perspectives why I was full of chit and get with the program and stop whining just because this war hit close to home (nephew)...
I am not a big Woodward fan, so do you care to give us a Cliff Notes summary of "Obama's War?" Convince me it is worth getting, or even renting from the Library...
Rmpl
You should not make that 80% assumption at all. You have a very limited response to this thread. Spewing statistics like that without an accurate sampling is why the media is able to twist information to their liking.
There are a whole lot of people over here that still believe in what we are doing. Reading your response today really pissed me off-if that was your goal then kudos. I just heavily edited my response to this or it would have been one of the nastiest diatribes I've ever posted on the Internet.
If you want to keep driving down this road, prepare for an enfilade.
Rmplstlskn
10-31-10, 10:36
You should not make that 80% assumption at all. You have a very limited response to this thread. Spewing statistics like that without an accurate sampling is why the media is able to twist information to their liking.
There are a whole lot of people over here that still believe in what we are doing. Reading your response today really pissed me off-if that was your goal then kudos. I just heavily edited my response to this or it would have been one of the nastiest diatribes I've ever posted on the Internet.
If you want to keep driving down this road, prepare for an enfilade.
Ryan, my goal was NOT to formulate any POLL RESULT. I am not the press, nor am I a writer or researcher for anything... I just based my post on the respondents so far, and in hindsight, the conclusion of 80% is indeed stupid and meaningless.
I am just very sad and depressed that we are having families devasted and yound Americans crippled and maimed for what may just be a "SAVING FACE" strategy based on a changed, poorly concieved MISSION PLAN. Helping a population of people that only a small minority even want the help we offer.
It is easier for me to just shut up and remain "supportive," but I am not yet convinced the present mission is good for us or Afganistan. I am truly asking for help in understanding WHY we need to continue with the mission we are now on, nation building / propping up. I want to be shown WRONG...
IM sent to you as well...
Rmpl
There are a whole lot of people over here that still believe in what we are doing.
Hey bro, not a flame but I have some serious questions.
It seems like you are a troop in the field. I will assume you are familiar with the 5 paragraph OPORD.
Could you tell me what your chain of command has told you the Commander's Intent and Mission End State is? What do you think it is? What do the other troops think? Has anyone discussed what our strategic goals are? What are we going to 'win' in Afghanistan? What does 'victory' look like?
More questions (seriously). Does your average troop know the basic situation of Waziristan (Pakistan) being used as a Taliban safe haven? Does your average troop know that our Pakistani 'allies' in this war have a State security apparatus called the ISI? Are they aware that the ISI created and have supported the Taliban, and to this day, have an operational relationship with the Taliban?
Really, I want to know what your average troop in the field thinks about this. Thanks.
There are a whole lot of people over here that still believe in what we are doing.
Hey bro, not a flame but I have some serious questions.
It seems like you are a troop in the field. I will assume you are familiar with the 5 paragraph OPORD.
Could you tell me what your chain of command has told you the Commander's Intent and Mission End State is? What do you think it is? What do the other troops think? Has anyone discussed what our strategic goals are? What are we going to 'win' in Afghanistan? What does 'victory' look like?
More questions (seriously). Does your average troop know the basic situation of Waziristan (Pakistan) being used as a Taliban safe haven? Does your average troop know that our Pakistani 'allies' in this war have a State security apparatus called the ISI? Are they aware that the ISI created and have supported the Taliban, and to this day, have an operational relationship with the Taliban?
Really, I want to know what your average troop in the field thinks about this. Thanks.
I'm not an average troop in the field and I can't comment as to what a typical soldier feels or thinks on these issues. I do understand the Pakistan situation very well, and from your questions I'd guess if you have some insight, albeit seemingly all negative. I can't comment on what my chain of command is stating our mission is or our goals. I'm not a public affairs officer.
From my perspective, there is no victory--both conflicts are more akin to a feint maneuver for the US. However, there are human costs and far reaching geopolitical issues involved that are much more complex than a diluted analysis of "what it takes to win."
Here's the list of questions you should be asking and then start considering the big picture and the current as well as project role for the United States. I’m not going to answer these questions here; I’m hoping you will dig this out on your own if you really want to know. Besides, don’t take my word for it! If you do the research yourself, then you will have developed your own understanding based on the sources you review.
What/where/who/how does the US export? (hint:arms)
What/where/who/how does the US import? (hint: everything except arms)
What is the biggest percentage of our GDP both in terms of spending and revenue generation? (hint:no hints on this one)
What is the security role of the United States from a global perspective in 2020? (hint:arms and support)
Who will be the key players for the next 10 years? (both nation states and asymmetric actors)
What will be the most critical conflict after 2020? (hint: food and fresh water)
What natural resources (besides oil) are also running out in the next 10 years and where do they come from? (hint: fresh water and metals)
What is the present demand for natural resources and who are the key competitors? (hint: look towards China)
Here are two examples to think about…
When a widget factory in China starts up the assembly line for plastic doohickeys—where does the raw material for the product come from? How did those raw materials arrive in that manufacturing facility? Who assembles the product and what is there background? When the product is ready for shipment, how does it get to its distribution points? (ship, plane, truck—all of the above?) Once it is on the way, what guarantee does the shipment have of making it to the destination? (Think diplomatic as well as physical security). Once it arrives at the port, let’s say LA, how is the shipment distributed within the US and using what resources? What is the continued support agreement for a plastic doohickey once it arrives at the consumers door step?
When the US assembles a BlackHawk helicopter-where did the raw materials come from? What is the projected ability for those holes in the ground to provide those necessary resources? Who and what skill sets are required to build the product? Once the helicopter is assembled, how is it transported? Who and what guarantees the security of the shipment? On arrival, who takes care of the product and provides continued support? What resources are used to continue the operation of the product, where do they come from and how do they get there?
Now consider again, what does the US export? What technologies does the US lead the world in development and delivery? Who are those customers? Why do they buy from us? Why would they continue to buy from us?
This is grossly over simplified; there is a lot of research and reading that should be done on an individual level to get into the complexities of how the mechanism works. This goes way beyond globalization, peak oil, water crisis, or US hegemonic interests.
I’m already in the process of writing this book. If I ever get the spare time to finish it I hope it actually makes it to the book shelves or turns out to be an Amazon.com kindle edition.
Again, I believe in the mission that I am supporting and well aware of most of the facts that should lead me to believe otherwise. The issue continues to be how to protect US interests through the use of force projection and application. When you start to think of the scope of US interests, it changes your perspective on how/why the gears are turning in the process.
You cannot take any one piece and analyze the merits based on individual component results. You have to quantify how each part fits into the larger puzzle and then derive the value on a global scale. The micro does not always make sense when taken without consideration to the macro. Both Iraq and Afghanistan, despite their individual myriad complexities, represent micro pieces in the big picture.
Taken as a whole, what we are doing is representing the United States and the benefits of our economic and social capabilities. We are also demonstrating the value of our word and ability to back up diplomacy through use of force when necessary. There are still individual states that oppose us based on the notion that we will not use force to exercise our will. North Korea and Iran are primary examples of actors that are anathema to US interests.
Diplomatically, we choose to isolate and use our relationships with other countries to confront opposing interests. When you look at how that leverage is applied, it is also valuable to analyze what we trade with other countries to exercise that political will power.
I realize from reading this thread I’m probably not going to effectively change dissenting opinions, but I can at least show you why I stand firm in my belief that what we are doing is necessary. The individual sacrifices are not in vain, there is a larger purpose at work.
There is no global rise in quality of life without a corresponding drop in developed nations such as the US. We are experiencing that drop now, but nowhere near the full force of what is about to happen. We are at war for our way of life, to be able to continue to be the leaders for just a little longer.
If we are not able to innovate solutions for global issues, such as green/renewable energy, fresh water, food, as well as solve environmental problems--we will not hold our present super power status much past 2020 (if that long).
Rmplstlskn
11-01-10, 08:04
OK, now I am depressed... but only because my inner beliefs are being confirmed. That the world as we know it is set for some MAJOR changes... Ryan, thanks for sharing your insight. It gives a glimpse into the "Wizard of OZ" behind the curtain. One just needs to seriously look within themselves and KNOW what they stand for and what vision of the future they want to see unfold.
BTW, I have thought since the 70's that the "Bold, New World" will be about protecting and controlling natural resources, and the weapons of war (oldest business next to prostitution and slavery).
I realize from reading this thread I’m probably not going to effectively change dissenting opinions, but I can at least show you why I stand firm in my belief that what we are doing is necessary. The individual sacrifices are not in vain, there is a larger purpose at work.
Corporate Military Machine & Natural Resources -v- American Precious Resources (young men & women)
I am not yet willing to sacrifice one for the other, especially without colonization.
There is no global rise in quality of life without a corresponding drop in developed nations such as the US. We are experiencing that drop now, but nowhere near the full force of what is about to happen. We are at war for our way of life, to be able to continue to be the leaders for just a little longer.
Increased globalization without colonization MUST lead to a lower quality of life for the American worker and the middle & lower castes in American society. Military export can only employ so many...
If we are not able to innovate solutions for global issues, such as green/renewable energy, fresh water, food, as well as solve environmental problems--we will not hold our present super power status much past 2020 (if that long).
Those will never be solved with our present populations and the expotential growth. And on what side of the fence does this path take one?
Rmpl (going back to providing another card for the house we have built...)
And unfortunately, this is what I feel you’re saying:
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. - Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
There is no colonization in the modern era, now we can only hegemonize. We've done this pretty well with Europe and East Asia, but we are failing miserably in the Middle East and Africa. A big part of this is a clash of cultural ideals and religion. These are age old issues that are still pretty much irresolvable.
This is not a military machine issue either. This is a global economic engine crisis for us. Our economy just happens to be very defense centric. We can't compete with China on rubber dog shit prices, but we make damn fine helicopters.
The only way to start "fixing" the problem is to build better products for less and sell them on the open market globally/freely. Because we have skilled, educated (expensive) labor, we have to build things that other countries don't have the proper work force to make. No one is willing to pay a tailor $50 an hour to sew Nikes when you can hire 100 children in India for the same price and win on volume. We can only win when we play to our strengths--which has been technology and largely focused on the defense sector for the past 30 years.
Now we are left with a few things to try and take/maintain the lead. Medical research has been an incredible resource for us. Renewable energy is another area where we are on the cutting edge. We also have very strong business and technology communities for services export. We have to find more areas to step in with solid leadership or we should expect to find ourselves rebalanced in the global equation.
Here are some sad realities to consider...
In the US, if you have a daughter your probably thinking how can make sure she gets through college and start planning that from the day you found out she was on the way.
There are a lot more places in the world where the thought process is more like "can I sell her to the sex shop for $100" or "I hope I can get her to start gluing shoes together when she's three."
In most places, $100 would probably be a premium price...
It is a sad, sick, messed up world--but that is reality. There is no candy coating.
Von Rheydt
11-01-10, 10:35
What/where/who/how does the US export? (hint:arms)
Don't forget IPhones and jobs. Iphones are everywhere and jobs are being exported to India and the Phillipines. Don't believe me? Where do you think everyone is putting their big customer contact centres.
The population of India is very well educated, a friend of the west and able to offer many services. They now offer medical services to medical tourists that are cheaper than the services offered in the USA......no they are not witch doctors, they are very, very competent. Also, much silicon valley software is written in India, because it is cheaper.
What/where/who/how does the US import? (hint: everything except arms)
Most manufacturers here import their pre-made sub-components from outside the USA for final assembly in the USA. That way they can say, through clenched teeth, yup its made in the USA - <cough> Harley <cough>.
What is the biggest percentage of our GDP both in terms of spending and revenue generation? (hint:no hints on this one)
Well, let me think about that one........not education, not health, not welfare, not job creation ..........got it, got it, defence and military things.
What is the security role of the United States from a global perspective in 2020? (hint:arms and support)
With the present economic situation it would be tantamount to total economic scuicide to bring all the troops, contractors and support personnel bac to the USA to face.............unemployment.
Who will be the key players for the next 10 years? (both nation states and asymmetric actors)
Well even here the USA has slipped down to 3rd or 4th place.
What will be the most critical conflict after 2020? (hint: food and fresh water)
These possibilities were already the subject of Strategic Level wargames back in the 80's. The World Health Organisation reckons that over 70% of the worlds water is not fit for drinking.
What natural resources (besides oil) are also running out in the next 10 years and where do they come from? (hint: fresh water and metals)
Popular theory, "Water is running out"!
Actually water is not running out. There is as much water on the planet now as the day the big bang occured or Adam came on to Eve, take your pick. What is happening to water is that there is an increasing planetery population which means that what there is has to be shared amongst more people.
Add to the increased water demand the fact that major waterways often run through more than one country. Consider then what would happen if one country built a dam or diverteed water for its own use and the supply to another country was "turned off". One of the water war games mentioned above dealt with this scenario, in Africa, and it ended up with fighter bombers taking out the dam.
What is the present demand for natural resources and who are the key competitors? (hint: look towards China)
China has the mineral rights in Afgahnistan, fact.
A mate of mine is a geologist in the petro chemical exploration industry. He says that wherever he goes to explore and survey there is also a Chinese crew and an Indian crew. He also says that at the moment the Chinese are throwing long term money at buying rights for oil.
Go to central Africa where copper production slowed to nothing a year or two ago, miners are unemployed and mine owners are desperate for customers. Yup, you'll find Chinese crews doing surveys and negotiating long term contracts.
If you check out the international tourist hot spots they are now catering for Chinese like they used to cater for the Japanese.
My kids school here has a contingent of around 40 Chinese students that are over for a minimum of 12 months. And that is not because their parents are poor rice farmers.
My nephew getting shot in the chest a few days ago that his personal armor protected him from, and him and his buddies getting their vehicles blown up underneath them, twice this year, several of his buddies killed or maimed, as well as other stories just like this from friends and news sources, has me asking myself, "WHY?"
Help me understand, at this time, with our present mission focus, WHY?
The last time we assisted them in their fight against the invading communists, once that was done, a major vacuum was left, and what resulted was, well, you know the history. A major part of the mission - as I understand it - is to not leave a similar vacuum to be filled by extremists, religious loony tunes, terrorist training camps, etc. Ergo, some form of "stable" government (hopefully of a democratic nature, but we won't go there...) that is pro US/pro western.
Whether this is actually achievable, and or achievable following the current strategies, I don't know. Some feel it's simply not a goal that can be achieved no matter what we do in that part of the world, some feel it's not going to happen with the current strategy, and a scant few, feel we are actually making the required progress to those goals.
That, as I understand it, is the "why" of it. I'm not there, never have been, but my general impression from communicating with various who are is, most seem to feel that's a worthy mission, but frustrated at the current strategy for making it happen. My take only. It would be easy to say that's really a cover mission to other less obvious (as others have alluded to in this thread) goals.
A great read in terms of the vacuum that was left post war, our connection to Pakistan, etc, etc is "Charlie Wilson's War"
http://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Wilsons-War-Extraordinary-Operation/dp/0871138549
Perhaps others here have read it and can comment also.
http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/0143034669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288626746&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Graveyard-Empires-Americas-War-Afghanistan/dp/0393338517/ref=pd_sim_b_10
Another good read
Rmplstlskn
11-01-10, 12:24
China has the mineral rights in Afgahnistan, fact.
Yes... I did not know this, but if one Googles around, it can be seen as reality, at least on many mineral rights fronts, not sure about all. It is also somewhat veiled behind companies that are owned by companies that are Chinese State controlled.
Things are beginning to take new form for what I THOUGHT was happening in Afganistan to what IS HAPPENING in Afganistan, and I don't like it... I now "MAY" understand why Obama did not pull out Afganistan as he wanted... China has us by the shorthairs...
One must wonder what role our DEPENDENCE upon and DEBT to China plays into the MISSION of our military there. Indeed the EU's debt to China as well, as we have seen in the news regarding China bailouts.
Rmpl
Yes... I did not know this, but if one Googles around, it can be seen as reality, at least on many mineral rights fronts, not sure about all. It is also somewhat veiled behind companies that are owned by companies that are Chinese State controlled.
Things are beginning to take new form for what I THOUGHT was happening in Afganistan to what IS HAPPENING in Afganistan, and I don't like it... I now "MAY" understand why Obama did not pull out Afganistan as he wanted... China has us by the shorthairs...
One must wonder what role our DEPENDENCE upon and DEBT to China plays into the MISSION of our military there. Indeed the EU's debt to China as well, as we have seen in the news regarding China bailouts.
Rmpl
Its not quite to that point.. yet. The mineral rights issues are a more recent development. Also understand that it will be to hell and gone a long time before you can exploit anything in Afghanistan. Probably well past peak oil. (which may already have occurred)
It would probably go something like this...
Chinese send team to dig hole. Taliban and local commanders attempt to extort Chinese for permission/protection of team traveling to/from and at the site. Government of Afghanistan attempts to extort various necessities from Chinese government to allow project. Cost to keep Chinese team alive without disruption exceeds value of crap from hole. Chinese learn lesson from loss leaders (aka USSR and US) in how to deal with Afghanistan. Chinese either stop trying to dig hole or glass province. I seriously doubt they would try to invade or build infrastructure--far cheaper to wipe slate and start over. Their track record of human rights abuse in their own country proves what they are capable of.
Or, we build enough roads, schools, and clinics to elevate afghans to world 2.5 instead of dark ages and they magically start to pull out of this tail spin.
best case for us is to continue to engage terrorist operations in the heart of their own territory, protect US interests through force projection, continue building parts/equipment, support pincer strategy for containment of Iran, prevent destabilization of additional nation states with strategic resources.
Its a huge soggy rotten terd sandwich. And we made for ourselves by not taking care of business in Afghanistan post Soviet occupation as well as not removing Saddam from power in 1993. Those are two of the biggest US foreign policy failures in the last hundred years. Now we have to bleed all over the map for an undetermined amount of time to keep a bare minimum status quo that doesn't involve our dollar being used as toilet paper.
Rmplstlskn
11-01-10, 13:38
not taking care of business in Afghanistan post Soviet occupation as well as not removing Saddam from power in 1993. Those are two of the biggest US foreign policy failures in the last hundred years.
If some are correct about George H W Bush, then that too makes sense... I still remember Bo Gritz rant about HW Bush and just his dealings with him... let alone other people and their testimony.
Rmpl
Also, just wanted to clarify I'm saying 1993 instead of 1991 because my understanding is that we estimated it would take 2 years to completely ouster his regime (what a coup that would have been compared to now!). Failing to do so opened the door for the distrust that we currently experience with Iraq, and that I face as a personal issue when dealing with Iraqis. In my conversations over the years, I've had almost the same conversation in Qatar, Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE as well as Iraq with a variety of Arabs. Gulf War 1 represents a tremendous missed opportunity and loss of face for the US.
The what ifs and could have been's are lengthy for Afghanistan.
Sometimes I go back and read the news from the late 80s and 90s and the signs were seemingly all there in neon. Hindsight is 20/20.
ghostman1960
11-01-10, 15:15
Afghanistan is a lost cause. While we fight the Taliban and El Qaida, A-stan continues to produce over 95% of the worlds Opium and Heroin. A-stan is a proxy of Pakistan. Pakistan is the real problem. Their ISI (Intelligence Service) created and supports the Taliban and supports Al Qaida. Pakistan is involved in proliferating nuclear technology to Iran, N. Korea, Syria and any other wacko's with an anti west point of view. Pakistan is more afraid of India and uses A-stan as leverage. Pakistan is very cozy with the Chinese. They've even given China a F16 for T&E. Luckily the US under Bush, is actively engaging India. In the 21st Century India is a good Ally to have. The US needs to hold Pakistan accountable. Trying to make a nation of A-stan is a waste of time and resources. The British Empire never conquered it. Neither did the Russians. A-stan just needs to be randomly punished with punitive Military Expeditions. Just my opinion.
This is the best post on the subject so far. IMHO
Also, just wanted to clarify I'm saying 1993 instead of 1991 because my understanding is that we estimated it would take 2 years to completely ouster his regime (what a coup that would have been compared to now!). Failing to do so opened the door for the distrust that we currently experience with Iraq,
In what respect? Can you clarify a bit on that one? I'd be interested to hear more on that. Distrust in a "the US does not finish what they start" type thing or other?
Gulf War 1 represents a tremendous missed opportunity and loss of face for the US.
Because we didn't continue in and squash him? I don't doubt what you are saying (having never had such a conversation on those countries) but I'm suspecting there's nothing we can do or could do that ever makes people in such places happy either. Had we done what probably should have been done, it would then have simply switched to the Great Satan killing women and children to get rid of Saddam, etc, etc. which is what they were trying to avoid, and took a gamble he'd be overthrown.
A bad gamble that didn't pay off, but their fear regional impressions seemed a major deciding factor, and yet, we lost face for having done it, etc.
Rmplstlskn
11-01-10, 21:06
On the other hand it was Saudi intelligence that told us about the cargo plane bombs last week...
+1....
The Saud family must be getting nervous about their power hold...
Rmpl
The main issue is that when we did not remove Saddam and his regime, they systematically executed everyone who assisted us before, during and after the invasion. We failed to help the people that helped us (same as in Afghanistan). We do this jump in with the "Hi, I'm superman!" mentality, think we put the brush fire out, take our red cape and fly away. Most problems in the world aren't that easy to solve and we've been underestimating what it takes to successfully resolve serious issues.
To try another analogy, at least this time we flew in and earned a black eye, torn cape and dirty tights.
We aren't marvel super heroes, real problems require real solutions. If you want to earn a person's respect, following through is a big part of the process. At this point all we can do is be consistent, be genuine, and support rhetoric with action.
Another thing we need to do better is engage the population we are trying to help more effectively. We have a tendency to come in with big idea projects, leave something shiny in someone's lap when they wanted/needed something completely different. Then we wonder why the totally awesome project has been stripped for parts/materials and the shell blew away with the last sandstorm. I've seen that happen with everything from power-pro to hospitals.
We don't do a very good job working with corruption and this is unfortunately how things really work in many areas. We apply our ideals to situations and think our generosity proves benevolence. The sad thing is, in many cases it is perceived as weakness. This also changes the dynamic to "what can I get out of this guy" instead of "how can we work together to acheive mutual goals".
And its easy to become the enabler instead of the sustainer. We see people and situations where we know we can help/fix and we want to do what we can. The issue is helping the person learn how to help/fix themselves. Its the age old teach a man to fish vs. giving him a fish. The problem is knowing when there are no fish to catch.
Von Rheydt
11-02-10, 06:53
Taking a slightly different slant. It should be interesting for some that have never seen the landscape or people outside of a CNN war report:
http://skateistan.org/skateistan_blog/watch-nine-minute-skateistan-documentary
That's a cool place.
Afghans are not the ogres the more xenophobic 'murricans think they are.
Rmplstlskn
11-02-10, 13:03
Taking a slightly different slant. It should be interesting for some that have never seen the landscape or people outside of a CNN war report:
I saw what looks like any other third world country... Once majestic buildings now rubble (rubble before we came in). Decayed infrastructure, once built by outsiders... Garbage everywhere (I guess picking up trash in your neighborhood is a first-world thing...). Yet, what we offer to bring to them (big ideas / big projects) is rejected, or as Ryan mentioned, stripped clean and sold as scrap or parts. Education is repressed by ignorant Islamic old men...
Some quotes from the film:
It was really miserable during the Taliban period, but there was peace... After the Taliban left the fighting started again, and we are back to square one...
Also saw the picture on the wall showing US military aircraft shooting and bombing people stick figures in the center...
Let's see if I understand the kids logic... The logic of the young ones we are trying to win over...
Taliban = peace
US liberation = fighting /square one
We're making progress how? We should have just dropped skateboards rather than cluster bombs... :rolleyes:
Rmpl
Just making sure you realize that by miserable, they mean little boys were being raped constantly by old men. That was and is still going on, but much less with the US chasing these bastards all over their country. If you haven't read or watched the Kite Runner, there's a story for you.
There were also a lot more stonings, beheadings, random killings, and general lawlessness. Not to mention almost total lack of health care/preventive medicine, infrastructure, and education.
Rmplstlskn
11-02-10, 16:04
Just making sure you realize that by miserable, they mean little boys were being raped constantly by old men. That was and is still going on, but much less with the US chasing these bastards all over their country. If you haven't read or watched the Kite Runner, there's a story for you.
There were also a lot more stonings, beheadings, random killings, and general lawlessness. Not to mention almost total lack of health care/preventive medicine, infrastructure, and education.
But there was PEACE... I think the boys tone was that he preferred the Taliban over the fighting they have now... even if it meant the above things were gone, or at least greatly diminished.
And I am pretty sure that homosexuality is forbidden in their holy books... Hypocrites that they are...
Please understand, I am not saying life under Taliban was good, and I am sure many young girls were raped to, but what gets me is the lack of ENTHUSIASM the Afgans have for what opportunities we bring them or for the sacrifices we make to do it...
During our Revolutionary War, we were BEGGING other countries to join our fight against England, promising our fortunes and our lives as PROOF of our sincerity to fight the good fight. And we made good on our promises. We fought hard and with many deaths... Once it started, the majority of the population was IN SUPPORT of that war and they were always spying and reporting back about British troop actions.
I do not see the Afgans doing anything except allow the Taliban to plant IED's in their neighborhoods and take safe refuge among them...
Rmpl
I do not see the Afgans doing anything except allow the Taliban to plant IED's in their neighborhoods and take safe refuge among them...
Rmpl
That's because you don't know a ****ing thing, but you come off like you think you do. You don't "see" a god-damned thing.
Your level of ignorance and arrogance is nearly unbelieveable to me.
But then, I guess I suffer from actually being here and doing the job, rather than sitting on my ass, all comfy and shit, at home, sharpshooting what better men and women are actually attempting to do.
I would bet I disagree with the conduct of this "war" more than you do, but for different reasons.
I don't see the Afghans as any more hypocritical than Americans in what they do and why they do it. The behaviour we see as inscrutable and nonsensical tends to absolutely make sense when given their corporate best interests.
I saw what looks like any other third world country...
How about the smell?
Is it a combination of burning garbage, diesel fumes, and B.O.?
To explain a bit of why the OP pisses me off so much:
His subject title asks "Help me understand what we are NOW doing in Afghanistan.
First, his follow up posts indicate he already has a point of view and that he really isn't interested in any information that doesn't support his calcified position.
Second, his indication that the mission somehow changed is disingenuous at best. The problem isn't that the mission somehow changed, it's that we came here without a very clear and achieveable mission. And once we did arrive, we found a mess that is at least partially our fault, as a nation. And the military, with the lack of any better guidance, immediately started executing a Counter-terror heavy Counter-insurgency effort. However, the non-CT aspects of it were not efforted very well, because Iraq sucked up all the available assets and the various .gov agencies really never got on board with COIN.
BTW, for you anti-COIN folks, we fought a 100 year CT-based war in the Phillipines, which just recently has resulted in terrific successes, once we really got behind COIN as an operational and strategic effort. Note, not a lot of air time or ink is spilled on the success in the Phillipines, or even that we are fighting a war there, in partnership with the Phillipine government.
I wouldn't mind a military withdrawal from Afghanistan in the near future; if nothing else, it would lessen the media attention to what really needs to be done here, and that subject is too complex for an internet forum.
I do not pretend to know what needs to be done in A-stan.
Regarding Al-Q, I think we should have a policy of locate and kill, no matter where in the world they are located.
But that is a different matter than stabilizing A-Stan.
I always wonder why amateurs who would never attempt to rebuild and automatic transmission . . . because they know nothing about such work; nevertheless will offer up definitive opinions about vastly complicated topics such as the conduct of these wars.
I defer to the warfighters, several of which have contributed on this thread.
A couple of books: "War and Decision" and "The Pentagon's New Map" are pretty interesting treatments of these topics.
Rmplstlskn
11-03-10, 08:19
Insults aside...
If the AMERICAN PEOPLE, as fickle and distracted as they are, are NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY we are doing what we are NOW DOING in Afganistan, than the WAR is already decided...
So pound away on your chest and call us at home idiots and armchair quaterbacks... but it is hurting all of YOU over there more.
Without US, without our understanding the fight, you might as well all come home now... Because politicians will not allow the warfighters to do what they must do to win, just like Vietnam, Korea and Gulf War I... The pressure from the people who do not understand, therefore do not fully support, will not be overcome... Have we not learned anything from history?
Ryan has been the only one to explain WHY we are now doing what we now do, and yes, I have some FIRM convictions about this war, and about Islam, and about the tribal culture over there, but I am willing to CHANGE if shown the error of my beliefs and convictions. But as Ryan and I have gone back and forth, often with him wanting to bash me over the head, I am not there yet, and I still have concerns that have not been removed. And I AM representative of many other Americans out there... like it or not. I just decided to step into this mess and ask the HARD questions because I love my country, my soldiers and my military, enough so to take a beating here if need be.
In spite what some imply here, I think the American people, the ACTIVE ones politically, have a good suspicion about what is going on overseas, and we have serious concern about it. And I will not be bullied away from asking these questions.
Rmpl
Rmpl,
This is an emotionally charged issue for many of us. We are dealing first hand with the results of our foreign policy. We want what is best for our country and we want the mission to be a success for the people we work with as well. The part you’re not getting is how many of our Iraqi and Afghan friends here are risking everything to help us. It may be limited in the overall scope, but it’s very personal. We don't want to let these people fail. We work our asses off to try to keep things going in the right direction. I want very much to see Iraq stand up on its own and take the reins of its own destiny. I want Afghanistan to find a way out of the dark ages and into the light. There are good people here; they are not all secret talibs or AQI.
As is the case with any insurgency, bad guys are going to blend in. This is not a quick turnaround situation. If you look at a typical village elder in Afghanistan, these guys want to go the edge of the village and cry or scream. They don't know which way to go because they have the Taliban threatening death or worse and they have the US waffling on strategy. They want better lives; many are actively participating in the solution. Many also have to play both sides to avoid being persecuted, killed or being targeted by the US or the Taliban. It becomes a case of going along to get along.
These are very complex scenarios. There is no cut and dried answer and in the mean time, it’s also a meat grinder for us and them.
If anything, I am hoping the results of the Nov 2nd election result in more realistic time lines, resources and goal setting for these conflicts. Right now, the liberal/Democratic agenda is setting us up for failure.
I feel like we have a new chance to keep things going in a positive direction and can hopefully take a few steps back from the political pounding that we are taking trying to do our jobs. Do you know how it feels to be representing a country in a conflict where only 8% consider the war your fighting the most important issue? Talk about a kick in the nuts.
We do need to get our economy restarted. Americans need jobs. We need to address issues at home, but we also have to continue to deliver on promises made. If our country is only as good as the word of the acting President we are well and truly f'd. We have to make solid commitments and back them up. Some of these issues take more time and attention than our ADD political system can handle.
I also feel like 120mm in that you've already made up your mind on this issue and are refusing to accept or consider our presentation of the experiences we've had. I could suggest a lengthy read list that would help, but it would be on you to actually be willing to do the leg work. I don't just read the pro-my-position material either--I look at all sides. If you have the time and inclination to want to know, I will make the effort to write up the list as well as an order to read that will help your understanding. I'll be up front, this is not a cheap read list and will take both time and money on your part to work through.
I am unable to summarize the breadth and depth of the material within the boundaries of an Internet forum.
Rmplstlskn
11-03-10, 09:34
Thanks Ryan, that reply helped a lot... It is the cards we have and we have to play them... I am beginning to accept that...
Although I consider myself more informed on TRUE Islam than many, the Islam of their holy books, not the people who are muslim by birth and just live life in a muslim nation, much of my Afgan views come from returning vets who have been there and from an Afgan friend, a very educated Afgan military doctor, who fled the Taliban. So I do believe there are many Afgans over there who are fighting bravely and praying we do not abandon them.
And I think this thread has run its course... No new info will likely be gained, rather just fuel for the fires within us, used against us. So I will chill out on this subject...
Rmpl
Insults aside...
If the AMERICAN PEOPLE, as fickle and distracted as they are, are NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY we are doing what we are NOW DOING in Afganistan, than the WAR is already decided...
Which is why "W" was such a ****ing idiot for popularizing this war. The American people lack the staying power and patience to win a long term conflict requiring nuance. That's why we have been so successful in winning those small wars that are fought under the mainstream radar.
So pound away on your chest and call us at home idiots and armchair quaterbacks... but it is hurting all of YOU over there more.
Without US, without our understanding the fight, you might as well all come home now... Because politicians will not allow the warfighters to do what they must do to win, just like Vietnam, Korea and Gulf War I... The pressure from the people who do not understand, therefore do not fully support, will not be overcome... Have we not learned anything from history?
Nah, we don't need popular support, we just need the right number of politicians on our side, a budget and the indifference of the common man.
And as far as learning from history, No, you haven't. The fact that you say "because politicians will not allow the warfighters to do what they must do to win", I can ascertain with 100% certainty that you buy into the "stabbed in the back" myth about Vietnam.
The fact is, the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong kicked our asses. Thoroughly and completely. And if "the military was turned loose" they would have kicked our asses even more thoroughly.
That's because your first paragraph is half right. It's a political war, and to fight it with the DoD in the lead is a mistake.
Ryan has been the only one to explain WHY we are now doing what we now do, and yes, I have some FIRM convictions about this war, and about Islam, and about the tribal culture over there, but I am willing to CHANGE if shown the error of my beliefs and convictions. But as Ryan and I have gone back and forth, often with him wanting to bash me over the head, I am not there yet, and I still have concerns that have not been removed. And I AM representative of many other Americans out there... like it or not. I just decided to step into this mess and ask the HARD questions because I love my country, my soldiers and my military, enough so to take a beating here if need be.
Oh, wow, you are such a victim, so selflessly sitting on your fat ass on that couch, taking an "internet beating". You have sacrificed SO MUCH in this thread alone. I wonder if Congress can be convinced to make an exception and issue you a Medal Of Honor, or something for your drama queening and sacrifice.
In spite what some imply here, I think the American people, the ACTIVE ones politically, have a good suspicion about what is going on overseas, and we have serious concern about it. And I will not be bullied away from asking these questions.
Rmpl
Oh, please. Tell me about this "good suspicion"? I bet it involves the Jews using the blacks to plant homing devices in our heads er something.....
Or maybe an international Freemasons conspiracy. Or space aliens!
Frankly, you are not looking for anything but someone to cosign onto you narrow and uninformed view of the world. If you were really interested, you'd go somewhere besides the internet, MSM or whatever kooky konspiracy theory source of agit-prop to gather real information. As it is, you come here with bullshit, disguised as a question, and you haven't EARNED anything like real information, yet.
The problem with real info about what's "going on here" is that most 'murricans lack the nuance and pre-requisite knowledge to understand or do anything with it.
COIN is very similar to seduction. The great majority of people just will never "get it".
Personally, I am waiting for the American conventional FOB- and MRAP bound forces to leave, so the rest of us can see what can be salvaged from this mess. A mess we (The US) has been complicit in making, obtw. My only hope is that we stay engaged, and don't PNG a whole country and/or region like we did with Viet Nam.
Rmplstlskn
11-03-10, 12:50
120mm, may you stay safe and accomplish what you are given... You now replied to my post and I read it. I will not continue down this path...
Rmpl
Wow, getting a lot heat and very little light here.
Food for thought:
Every soldier in this war has somebody back home. These mothers/brothers/fathers/sons are rank amateurs when it comes to Afghanistan. Most couldn't find it on a map. But what they are experts in is worry. They know all too well what it is like to worry about their loved ones overseas. So when of these 'amateurs' asks "Why did daddy have to die in the war?", what to you tell him?
'He died for freedom'? Hardly. I see our freedoms encroached upon everyday in an effort to 'preserve our way of life.' WTF?
So what do tell grieving wives/parents/children about this war? Do you launch into a 30 minute dissertation on the geo-political, economic, and strategic issues surrounding the region? REALLY, I want to know!
'Flush out your headgear':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqpGiwNtMvY
Wow, getting a lot heat and very little light here.
Food for thought:
Where? :rolleyes:
Where? :rolleyes:
I'll sound it out for you - "Dear Mr. Jones, sorry for your loss but I would like you to know that your son died for ____________."
Wow, getting a lot heat and very little light here.
Food for thought:
Every soldier in this war has somebody back home. These mothers/brothers/fathers/sons are rank amateurs when it comes to Afghanistan. Most couldn't find it on a map. But what they are experts in is worry. They know all too well what it is like to worry about their loved ones overseas. So when of these 'amateurs' asks "Why did daddy have to die in the war?", what to you tell him?
'He died for freedom'? Hardly. I see our freedoms encroached upon everyday in an effort to 'preserve our way of life.' WTF?
So what do tell grieving wives/parents/children about this war? Do you launch into a 30 minute dissertation on the geo-political, economic, and strategic issues surrounding the region? REALLY, I want to know!
'Flush out your headgear':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqpGiwNtMvY
There is nothing you can say that is going to assuage their grief. Best to just shut up and try to be there as a friend/family member.
I'll sound it out for you - "Dear Mr. Jones, sorry for your loss but I would like you to know that your son died for ____________."
You added no "food for thought" or useful info to this thread. No, none of us ever considered there may be grieving people due to the deaths of soldiers in these conflicts. Brilliant.
Several people asked, so I've put together a read list. Please understand I've spent the last ten years reading almost everything there is to read on the subjects listed and the below list is a partial compilation at best. The links all worked as of 4 November 2010.
Several of the books are listed for more of a first person perspective than historical or analytical review.
The big picture
http://www.amazon.com/Hegemony-Survival-Americas-Dominance-American/dp/0805076883/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288875480&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Unsustainable-Economic-Destroying-American-Prosperity/dp/1560255145/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4
http://www.amazon.com/Jaws-Dragon-Americas-Chinese-Hegemony/dp/B003A02TDS/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-International-Conflicts-Introduction-History/dp/0205658873/ref=pd_sim_b_19
http://www.amazon.com/Brave-New-War-Terrorism-Globalization/dp/0470261951/ref=pd_sim_b_5
Middle East Conflicts and the broader conflict
http://www.amazon.com/Taliban-Militant-Fundamentalism-Central-Second/dp/0300163681/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c
http://www.amazon.com/Choice-Enemies-America-Confronts-Middle/dp/1586487019/ref=pd_sim_b_2
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Hubris-West-Losing-Terror/dp/1597971596/ref=pd_sim_b_6
Islam
http://www.amazon.com/Marching-Toward-Hell-America-Islam/dp/074329971X/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Rise-Militant-Islam-Central/dp/0142002607/ref=pd_sim_b_2
http://www.amazon.com/Confrontation-Winning-against-Future-Jihad/dp/0230611303/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-God-Warriors-Afghanistan-Pakistan/dp/1400030250/ref=pd_sim_b_3
Peak Oil
http://www.amazon.com/Confronting-Collapse-Crisis-Energy-Money/dp/1603582649/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288875974&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Peak-Second-Great-Depression-2010-2030/dp/143276084X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288875974&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Desert-Coming-Saudi-Economy/dp/0471790184/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288875974&sr=1-8
Water Crisis
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060548304/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d3_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-6&pf_rd_r=0X7YWR7R49QFV1C827N7&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938731&pf_rd_i=507846
http://www.amazon.com/When-Rivers-Run-Dry-Water--/dp/0807085731/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288877967&sr=1-1
Intelligence and Diplomacy
http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Analysis-Environments-Security-International/dp/0313382654/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288877709&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Diplomacy-Touchstone-book-Henry-Kissinger/dp/0671510991/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288876035&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Presidents-Eyes-Only-Intelligence-Presidency/dp/0060921781/ref=pd_sim_b_10
http://www.amazon.com/See-No-Evil-Soldier-Terrorism/dp/140004684X/ref=pd_sim_b_10
http://www.amazon.com/Arts-Power-Statecraft-Cross-Cultural-Negotiation/dp/1878379658/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288876035&sr=1-4
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Warfare-Understanding-World-Intelligence/dp/1574883453/ref=pd_sim_b_7
http://www.amazon.com/Savarona-J-Patrick-Hart/dp/1413714463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288876953&sr=1-1
Iraq
http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Me-How-This-Ends/dp/B0020MMBKI/ref=pd_sim_b_9
http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation/dp/1400075394/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288878324&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/0143038915/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Gamble-Petraeus-American-Military-Adventure/dp/0143116916/ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Hardcover/dp/B002MU0UME/ref=pd_sim_b_16
http://www.amazon.com/Assassins-Gate-America-Iraq/dp/0374530556/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Iran
http://www.amazon.com/Devil-We-Know-Dealing-Superpower/dp/0307408671/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Iran-Everything-Republic-Ahmadinejad/dp/023061678X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288876558&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Persian-Mirrors-Elusive-Face-Iran/dp/0743284798/ref=pd_sim_b_7
Israel, the Holy Land, and the Arab Israeli conflict
http://www.amazon.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict-2nd-Kirsten-Schulze/dp/0582771897/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288877233&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Balfour-Declaration-Origins-Arab-Israeli-Conflict/dp/1400065321/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288877233&sr=1-11
http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Landscape-History-Honorable-Association/dp/0520234227/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288876798&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/One-State-Two-States-Resolving/dp/0300164440/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict-David-W-Lesch/dp/0195172302/ref=pd_sim_b_3
Afghanistan
http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/0143034669/ref=pd_sim_b_5
http://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Short-History-People-Politics/dp/0060505087/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Military-History-Alexander-against/dp/0306818264/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288878163&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Graveyard-Empires-Americas-War-Afghanistan/dp/0393338517/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288878163&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Afghan-War-Superpower-Fought-Lost/dp/070061186X/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/First-Insiders-Account-Spearheaded-Afghanistan/dp/0345496612/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Gamble-Soviet-War-Afghanistan/dp/0061143197/ref=pd_sim_b_10
http://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Russian-Soldiers-Vladislav-Tamarov/dp/1580084168/ref=pd_sim_b_8
http://www.amazon.com/Places-Between-Rory-Stewart/dp/0156031566/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288878163&sr=1-5
Pakistan
http://www.amazon.com/Frontline-Pakistan-Struggle-Militant-Islam/dp/0231142250/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288876096&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Pakistan-Inside-Worlds-Frightening-State/dp/0374532257/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1288877468&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Partition-Making-India-Pakistan/dp/0300143338/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1288877468&sr=8-7
http://www.amazon.com/Duel-Pakistan-Flight-American-Power/dp/1416561021/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1288877468&sr=8-10
http://www.amazon.com/Moth-Smoke-Novel-Mohsin-Hamid/dp/0312273231/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1288876603&sr=1-1
War, history and tactics
http://www.amazon.com/Military-Power-Explaining-Victory-Defeat/dp/0691128022/ref=pd_sim_b_8
http://www.amazon.com/Counterinsurgency-Warfare-Theory-Practice-Classics/dp/0275993035/ref=pd_sim_b_9
http://www.amazon.com/Strategies-Containment-Critical-Appraisal-American/dp/019517447X/ref=pd_sim_b_8
http://www.amazon.com/War-Carl-von-Clausewitz/dp/0691018545/ref=pd_sim_b_8
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Warfare-Classics-Ancient-China/dp/034536239X/ref=pd_sim_b_8
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-August-Barbara-W-Tuchman/dp/0345476093/ref=pd_sim_b_5
http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Critical-Analysis-Vietnam-War/dp/0891415637/ref=pd_sim_b_7
Rmplstlskn
11-04-10, 09:55
Several people asked, so I've put together a read list.
WOW!!! :eek:
Not a very optimistic reading list... :laugh:
But it does show the daunting, possibly insurmountable obstacles that confront us in these days and where we, the USA, have gone wrong on so many fronts...
In light of the FED buying even more debt and our HIDDEN true debt load, and the resulting taxation realities that apply to working citizens in the near future, I wonder if there is a glimmer of hope anywhere... Or is the new reality approaching us like a frieght train and will change our world in ways we cannot even fathom?
I will clip and save this list... Thanks! I hope my library has some of these...
Rmpl
I made the list so if you bought only the first item listed under each topic you'd have a starting point. That would be shotgun approach to these issues.
You added no "food for thought" or useful info to this thread. No, none of us ever considered there may be grieving people due to the deaths of soldiers in these conflicts. Brilliant.
And again, what did their loved ones die for?
Sort of seems like you are avoiding answering a rather direct question.
There is nothing you can say that is going to assuage their grief. Best to just shut up and try to be there as a friend/family member.
Quite true, but in the fullness of time the wounds will heal. Still, the question will remain, what did they die for?
BTW, for you anti-COIN folks, we fought a 100 year CT-based war in the Phillipines, which just recently has resulted in terrific successes, once we really got behind COIN as an operational and strategic effort. Note, not a lot of air time or ink is spilled on the success in the Phillipines, or even that we are fighting a war there, in partnership with the Phillipine government.
While I am neither anti-war nor anti-COIN, the Philippines are not the ideal example for COIN success. This because there is an established infrastructure as well as an established government who have long identified the islamic extremists as the enemy and who are willing and capable to treat them as such.
Armati
Start a another thread to deal with this question, it has nothing to do with the question being posed here. Grief counseling is an entirely different subject.
While I am neither anti-war nor anti-COIN, the Philippines are not the ideal example for COIN success. This because there is an established infrastructure as well as an established government who have long identified the islamic extremists as the enemy and who are willing and capable to treat them as such.
I'm pretty sure the reverse is true. COIN fits better in the Phillipines than in Afghanistan, for the reasons you state.
Most COIN "theory" presupposes insurgents are attacking an established order. That's why they are called "insurgents".
Still, we were getting nowhere against MILF (God I love typing that) by using CT for a long, long time.
Quite true, but in the fullness of time the wounds will heal. Still, the question will remain, what did they die for?
Armati
Start a another thread to deal with this question, it has nothing to do with the question being posed here. Grief counseling is an entirely different subject.
I think I get Armati's point, and it falls right in-line with the thread.
And at the risk of slaughtering some sacred cows, I'm willing to address it.
The US Military has to decide what it is. It is either a professional military force, or an amateur group of "patriots". The problem that Armati so succinctly brings up, is at the very core of why we are having this discussion.
The answer, if the US Military is a professional military, is that American soldiers die because they are professionals. And sometimes professional soldiers die, because the mission requires it. Therefore, Joey's mommy and daddy just need to STFU and respect Joey's decision to be a professional soldier. And not dishonor him by going all "Cindy Sheehan" or "Tillman family" about his/her death.
(I work alongside a loved one, so don't ****ing dare bring that "but what if it was your kid?" bullshit)
If the US Military are volunteer patriots, we need to relook a lot of things. Like retirement, and benefits and the level of pay. AND whether we decide to send them to some foreign land to fight a war they do not have an understanding or enthusiasm for. We also, as a nation, need to relook at how we consume goods, and whether we grow our economy, or whether we participate in the world community.
Since I'm not king of the universe, I don't feel compelled to provide "what ifs" as to what we should do, outside of regrowing the DoS from scratch and start doing international relations with some entity other then the DoD.
120mm,
I agree with you, but I took armatis question literally instead of figuratively. There are no good answers for a grieving family. I've seen it first hand and had to deal with extremely upset members along the way. My experience is there is no right answer, sort of like "does this dress make me look fat". Only 10,000x worse.
I would say the excessive use of the National Guard and Reserve forces is also an issue when it comes down to professional soldier vs. citizen patriot. Having been those shoes as well, the feeling I had was that we were being called upong to supplement the Active Duty force lock, stock and barrel.
The Army does a poor job of explaining the reasons or the "why" to soldiers. I see that changing, I feel that Petraeus has had a huge impact on keeping the soldier in the field informed and appraised of the mission. Still, I don't think the military as a whole has tackled the issue of why other than to stand on the fact that it is your duty; you signed on the line and took an oath to do what was asked of you.
I see improvement in this area, but definitely still a journey ahead. That's part of building the type of force needed to combat the present day conflicts--informed and for lack of a better term-enlightened soldiers.
If we don't do a better job, we can expect more issues like the 5th Stryker debacle. I know there are plenty of guys in that unit doing their job and doing it well, but they are taking a black eye for the nutjobs that didn't get the memo. That is a leadership issue.
120mm,
I would say the excessive use of the National Guard and Reserve forces is also an issue when it comes down to professional soldier vs. citizen patriot. Having been those shoes as well, the feeling I had was that we were being called upong to supplement the Active Duty force lock, stock and barrel.
You have nothing but agreement from me on that. It is my opinion that this insane use of National Guard/Reserve as some kind of cheap form of Active Duty force was a) Unethical by our nation's leaders, and b) Holding the American people "hostage" to the conflict, as they had folks the knew being roped into it.
I was a Reservist at the time of OIF I, and nowhere did I recall signing up to deploy to a foreign land, to fight a "foreign adventure" war, while 60% of the Active Duty force sat on their asses in Fort Leavenworth and DC, doing back to back tours to dodge going to war. It didn't help that we rounded out an Active Component command that routinely as a matter of course discriminated against Reservists. I recently had lunch with a bunch of Active Duty E-8s and O-5 and above at ISAF HQ on their first overseas tour. I just don't get how that can happen when I know Reservists on their third involuntary mobilization of the same MOS/branch.
The Army does a poor job of explaining the reasons or the "why" to soldiers. I see that changing, I feel that Petraeus has had a huge impact on keeping the soldier in the field informed and appraised of the mission. Still, I don't think the military as a whole has tackled the issue of why other than to stand on the fact that it is your duty; you signed on the line and took an oath to do what was asked of you.
I see improvement in this area, but definitely still a journey ahead. That's part of building the type of force needed to combat the present day conflicts--informed and for lack of a better term-enlightened soldiers.
If we don't do a better job, we can expect more issues like the 5th Stryker debacle. I know there are plenty of guys in that unit doing their job and doing it well, but they are taking a black eye for the nutjobs that didn't get the memo. That is a leadership issue.
I blame the way soldiers are assigned to theater. I have friends who are kicking and screaming trying to get back to Afghanistan, but are being denied, while other soldiers who hate it here, hate Afghans and really don't belong here are being involuntarily assigned.
I am a case in point, in fact. As an IRR guy, I am subject to mobilization, even though I am working here in a critical job here, with a unique skill set in my current job. If I were mobilized, the Army would assign me within my last MOS, which is Transportation. Which I have zero experience at, and no aptitude for, having been forcibly reclassified. And sure as God made little green apples, they'd take me, with my years of experience of living with Afghans and personal experience and connections within Afghanistan, and assign me to some depot in Kuwait, counting mess tins or some stupid shit like that.
To make things worse, I will finally get around to answering the OP's original question. I'd say half to 2/3ds of our soldiers are doing jack-shit in Afghanistan. Because they are mainly employed securing, feeding and supporting themselves, living on their mega-FOBs and rolling around in MRAPs dressed up like the Michelin Man, accomplishing really nothing at all.
I don't think we can really accomplish anything unless we shut down our mega-FOBs, take off our ****ing Stay Puft Marshmallow Man body armor, get out of our four story building-sized MRAPs, and actually go toe to toe with these guys in their neighborhoods. I'd sign up to be a squad member living 24/7 in a village, teaching the Arbakai, or ALP or whatever the name of it is this week. Crap, maybe we could even have some guys go native, convert to Islam and marry into some of the families to further insinuate ourselves.
Of course, war might become less bloodless and sanitary that way, and 'murricans would wet their panties. We might even take *gasp* casualties! Or even worse, admit that people who are not 'murrican have value EQUAL to us, and that might damage our smug and ignorant superiority complex.
Alternatively, we could just keep lobbing remote control high explosives at random "moose-limbs" from an air conditioned trailer in Arizona, and see how that works for us, long term.
I'm pretty sure the reverse is true. COIN fits better in the Phillipines than in Afghanistan, for the reasons you state.
I completely agree and simply worded my sentence poorly. What I meant to say was that the Philippines are not a good example in comparison to Afghanistan for the stated reasons. This because there are so many more obstacles to overcome where you are now.
The US Military has to decide what it is. It is either a professional military force, or an amateur group of "patriots". The problem that Armati so succinctly brings up, is at the very core of why we are having this discussion.
The answer, if the US Military is a professional military, is that American soldiers die because they are professionals. And sometimes professional soldiers die, because the mission requires it. Therefore, Joey's mommy and daddy just need to STFU and respect Joey's decision to be a professional soldier. And not dishonor him by going all "Cindy Sheehan" or "Tillman family" about his/her death.
.
Yes. We have a winner! Thanks.
My point is that (in this war anyway) soldiers are not dying for 'freedom' or any of that other jackassy flag-waving Neo-con BS.
One of the best war movies ever made was Hamburger Hill. In one of the scenes the PSG was consoling one of his SQL's over the loss of one of his guys. He said something to the effect of 'He didn't die for mom, apple pie, the Flag or any of that other bullshit. He took his automatic weapon, flanked, and laid it on the line for you, me and 3rd Squad. And, don't give him anything less."
"Don't give him anything less"....
As for a professional military, quite simply, we don't really have one. I would argue that fully 80% of the Army would be perfectly at home working at the DMV. 'Army Stuff' like PT, weapons handling, and combatives are seen as inconveniences. At best, most soldiers do just enough PT to pass the PT test, qualify once a year by shooting less 100rds annually, and view combatives as some sort of odd sporting event.
Think about this:
People who want to become police or fire fighters often work hard and study to qualify. Most departments require applicants to take some sort of physical readiness test and take a serious written exam. People who are accepted into the program are usually career minded and fully intend to do 20 or more years of service before retiring.
In the military, most troops join because they have few other good options. Most do not intend to make a career of the military. About half will serve 4 years or less. And in many cases, we do not retain our best and brightest. Many leave service because it failed to live up to their expectations or they simply couldn't take the bullshit anymore. These troops know full well they can make a go of it in the 'real world.' Many of our most mediocre stay. These guys know, given their personal level of talent and motivation, there is no way they can make this kind of money working a 'real job.'
So, to answer the original question - 'What are we doing now in Afghanistan?' - well for many soldiers they are there to get a year of tax free income and special pays.
Rmplstlskn
11-06-10, 20:05
So, to answer the original question - 'What are we doing now in Afghanistan?' - well for many soldiers they are there to get a year of tax free income and special pays.
Well I guess you have a point there...
I guess the next soldier I see getting ready to deploy, I need to tell them it's about time and get out there and earn your pay slacker... You willingly signed up for it... Be professional, STFU, and get a move on... We don't pay you to make babies...
Rmpl
Well I guess you have a point there...
I guess the next soldier I see getting ready to deploy, I need to tell them it's about time and get out there and earn your pay slacker... You willingly signed up for it... Be professional, STFU, and get a move on... We don't pay you to make babies...
Rmpl
No, you won't. If you aren't currently serving, and have some time "in the box" you will also STFU.
In my world, you can only "bitch" if you are "in the game".
BTW, I get lots of valuable information from people who are not and have never served in the military, and are not, and never will deploy.
But they are either actively supportive, and choose to inform themselves, or
They are openly critical, and choose to inform themselves and stay informed, or
Openly curious, and approach with a genuine learning attitude.
I have little room for dog-IQ folks with conspiracy theories and pseudo-intellectual arguments of "knowing the true Islam" and other crap like that.
As an individual fighter going over there, it's as simple as going with the goal of bringing as many of your brothers and sisters back with you in one peice as possible. I'd much rather not go back there, but I got to save lives last time I was out there, and I'm even better equipped to do the same next time. Tax free, getting better looking meals than I'd buy myself when at FOBs - whatever... civilians can see the 'perks' from living out there, but the way to honestly tell somebody is participating over there is that those things are the furthest from their minds.
I won't deny that our military system has made the inevitable (historically repetitive) error of bringing too much ass to a gunfight in Pashtunistan, especially with the quantity of rear echelon guys out there who might indeed spend more of their time at the pX stuffing down Burger King than directly affecting the mission, but at the pointy end of the stick there is no question that we are a committed, dedicated fighting force that is unparalleled in what we can accomplish for good.
Then again, my view may be skewed because I work in a unit that requires talent, and a fair degree of intelligence (or something that passes for it), so take that as it is.
Armati - I completely agree that the trend to minimum standards is extremely detrimental to combat effectiveness, but in any historical context, even our minimally qualified soldiers if led in an passible fashion are still every bit the measure of our adversaries... but good enough doesn't bring all our guys back, and that's why it's f**king unacceptable.
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