View Full Version : FedEx just dropped off my Magpul Shotgun DVD.
Just a heads up to those who ordered.....I haven't popped it in yet but am *really* looking forward to it after my 'honey-do's' are complete :D
m24shooter
10-28-10, 18:34
Who did you order from?
I think I did mine through DS Arms.
Pre-ordered direct from Magpul.
Nice, I got charged the other day...I look forward to this weekend :D
The question, do I want this in blu-ray, or dvd? because I can't rip a blu-ray to my ipad.
And the other question, do i watch this BEFORE magpul shotgun employment next month? ARGHHH
Dos Cylindros
10-28-10, 22:45
The question, do I want this in blu-ray, or dvd? because I can't rip a blu-ray to my ipad.
And the other question, do i watch this BEFORE magpul shotgun employment next month? ARGHHH
God DVD if you watch alot on the ipad. I say go ahead and watch it, it will give you a leg up in being ahead on the material.
G*d D@mn it..... i ordered mine direct from MagPul but just got the shipping notice today and wont get it until Tuesday
I hate you highxj!!! I preordered mine from Magpul as well so I should be receiving mine soon too. Kinda weird but the website still states that they are taking preorders and the videos will not be shipping until the first week of November.
Glad I live by myself because I am sure it'll be the same thing for me when this video arrives. That first night I'll be up for hours standing in front of a T.V. holding a shotgun!
Don't tase me bro! I only live about 100 miles from Magpul....probably why I got it. Watched about half of disc 1, pretty good so far...
Pre-ordered direct from Magpul.
Same here. Shipping notice arrived Sat and tracking info has it arriving today. I am looking forward this one.
devilsdeeds
10-30-10, 16:11
The question, do I want this in blu-ray, or dvd? because I can't rip a blu-ray to my ipad.
And the other question, do i watch this BEFORE magpul shotgun employment next month? ARGHHH
The bluray one actually is part bluray and part dvd. Its 2 bluray discs and then the drills recap one is a dvd.
Three discs, two in high-definition (HD) Blu-ray and one in standard-definition (SD) DVD-Video (for those that want to reference the drills on their laptop at the range, etc.) Region free. Total running time 328 min.
G*d D@mn it..... i ordered mine direct from MagPul but just got the shipping notice today and wont get it until Tuesday
I feel your pain!!!
GermanSynergy
11-01-10, 19:33
Just ordered it now!
Anxiously awaiting a review!!!
Drew
First thing I watched were the outtakes...friggin hilarious :sarcastic:
ForTehNguyen
11-04-10, 10:48
dammit AIM has it on their website but its sold out
Brownells says on their website that they are in stock. I'd call them though.
-Jax
dammit AIM has it on their website but its sold out
superr.stu
11-04-10, 19:57
Ordered mine straight from Magpul today about 6am, had shipping confirmation around 1pm
SeriousStudent
11-04-10, 21:09
I ordered mine on Tuesday night from DSG Arms, it arrived today at noon.
The question, do I want this in blu-ray, or dvd? because I can't rip a blu-ray to my ipad.
And the other question, do i watch this BEFORE magpul shotgun employment next month? ARGHHH
I really don't see the utility of getting this in Bluray. The video quality of the regular DVD is *really* good. Great production.
Did anyone notice Costa short-stroke the 870 during one of the prone drills? That pretty much confirmed my position in the camp that says an autoloader is more dependable than a pump which depends on operator skill for reliable function.
Can't wait to get my 14" M2 done....
D. Christopher
11-11-10, 01:08
If an auto is more reliable than a pump then that's news to me. I've seen too many autoloaders have problems due to the ammo being used for me to trust one for self defense. The pump may require more skill and practice but I'm okay with that. At least the onus is on me and not the ammo. YMMV.
motorwerks
11-11-10, 01:24
yeah my Auto sure as hell isn't more reliable then any pump. I think it all depends on the gun really. I have a little something going on that I need to work out. Its cleaned oiled and running pretty good right now but I wont trust my life on it.
I'm not talking mechanical reliability, I'm talking the likelihood of a user induced malfunction. If somebody like Costa who trains incessantly can short stroke a pump in a classroom setting, what is Joe average gonna do under stress?
Did anyone notice Costa short-stroke the 870 during one of the prone drills? That pretty much confirmed my position in the camp that says an autoloader is more dependable than a pump which depends on operator skill for reliable function.
Can't wait to get my 14" M2 done....
I'm not talking mechanical reliability, I'm talking the likelihood of a user induced malfunction. If somebody like Costa who trains incessantly can short stroke a pump in a classroom setting, what is Joe average gonna do under stress?
Don't take offense at this, but I think you need to learn to build deeper data sets for your decision making. One drill in a video is a very small sample.
None taken, you're right of course and I shouldn't have made the statement in quite that fashion. I do have a larger 'data set' and my decision was made well before this, just using that as a recent example.
I've been rethinking this the last few months though, having a couple each of pumps and autos to choose from. I'm leaning toward the autos now, having satisfied myself as to their dependability with good ammo.
I carry an autoloading sidearm as most here likely do, not a Colt SAA. I have as much confidence in my Benelli M2 as I do my LW Commander.
It's all good. :D
m24shooter
11-12-10, 12:23
I really don't see the utility of getting this in Bluray. The video quality of the regular DVD is *really* good. Great production.
Agreed. Unless you are such a home theater junkie that you can't overlook the fact that maybe Costa's arm hair isn't fully visible so you can't get the full tinglies the standard DVD video quality is still quite impressive. I've been watching them on large LCDs in 1080i and it is incredible just how good these are. The slo-mo stuff is very impressive, and you aren't going to miss anything. Again, unless you just get a chubbie from that kind of thing.
If that's the case, get the BluRay. I would imagine that that would be quite an experience.
If an auto is more reliable than a pump then that's news to me. I've seen too many autoloaders have problems due to the ammo being used for me to trust one for self defense. The pump may require more skill and practice but I'm okay with that. At least the onus is on me and not the ammo. YMMV.
Having been through Rob Haughts shotgun class and seen people short stroke SG's in a shoot house environment (under just the smallest amount of stress). So I have come to the conclusion that pump SG's are not the best idea.
With that said, most auto loading SG's are crap. So unless your SG starts with the letter "B" or maybe the letter "F" I would pass on it.
Me personally, I run the Benelli M4.
C4
I'm not talking mechanical reliability, I'm talking the likelihood of a user induced malfunction. If somebody like Costa who trains incessantly can short stroke a pump in a classroom setting, what is Joe average gonna do under stress?
I have seen the master of Shotgunning (Haught) short stroke an 870. So if he can do it, I sure as hell can!
C4
My DVD should be in today but I'm working all day so I won't be watching until tmrw. I run a 870.
Exactly, but even then the Benelli M4s can be tempremental on the ammo. Keep in mind, a semi will be much more sensitive to the ammo. I find my M4 can eat almost anything EXCEPT low recoil. And MOST auto shotgunners tend to get a big boggled when their guns short stroke due to always assuming it'll cycle.
Personally I think it's a training issue. Pick your platform and really drill with it.
I have Magpul Handgun 2 / Shotgun 3 weeks from today, and will be running my Benelli, that said, I almost wish I was running an 870 due to the challenges of running that system.
Exactly, but even then the Benelli M4s can be tempremental on the ammo. Keep in mind, a semi will be much more sensitive to the ammo. I find my M4 can eat almost anything EXCEPT low recoil. And MOST auto shotgunners tend to get a big boggled when their guns short stroke due to always assuming it'll cycle.
Auto's are more ammo specific (as most don't like low recoil stuff). My M4 eats ALL OF IT though.
It is SO important for folks to actually shoot their defensive loads of choice (as their gun might not like it).
Personally I think it's a training issue. Pick your platform and really drill with it.
I do not. All the guys I saw short stroke their 870 were HEAVILY experienced Shotgunners (to include Haught). The other aspect of this is that fact that MOST people do not shoot their SG's very often and most likely never logged an hour in a shoot house with one.
You can be smooth and fluid on the square range with a pump, but step inside a house and clear rooms with it is totally different I think.
C4
D. Christopher
11-12-10, 14:22
Everyone should decide what's best for them personally, no doubt about it. For me personally, having used an 870 for over 30 years now I don't feel the need to change what works for me. Short stroking is a very real possibility with a pump, especially under stress. How many of those mentioned just stopped right there when they short stroked and gave up, or had to take remedial action to fix the weapon? I'll tell you how many, none! When you're properly trained with the weapon you quickly rack the slide again and continue the fight. We can all come up with scenarios that prove our points and preferences, but I am just talking about statistical reliability of the weapon, not the capabilities or incapabilities of the operator. I am not trying to change anyone's mind or preferred weapon, but nobody operates any weapon flawlessly 100% of the time. Nobody! What matters is how you deal with problem solving under stress, when it really matters. Some people can do it, and some people can't. Some people don't know they can but will when that time comes. Others think they can and will fail if their time comes.
If I short stroke a pump in an actual emergency situation and then freeze up then I will lose the fight and probably my life. That's just natural selection at work. I know that for me personally the odds of that happening are very low, because I'm not statistically likely to be in another gunfight in my lifetime, and I'm even less likely to be armed with a shotgun. A pistol maybe, but not nearly as likely to be a rifle or shotgun. I still practice and train with them all but it's much more about mindset than platform. Choosing the exact weapon within each platform that works best for you, has the highest degree of reliability, and then understanding and training with it is one of the most important things you can do to ensure success, but there are no guarantees.
And any trainer that doesn't occasionally make mistakes isn't trying very hard.
Everyone should decide what's best for them personally, no doubt about it. For me personally, having used an 870 for over 30 years now I don't feel the need to change what works for me. Short stroking is a very real possibility with a pump, especially under stress. How many of those mentioned just stopped right there when they short stroked and gave up, or had to take remedial action to fix the weapon? I'll tell you how many, none! When you're properly trained with the weapon you quickly rack the slide again and continue the fight. We can all come up with scenarios that prove our points and preferences, but I am just talking about statistical reliability of the weapon, not the capabilities or incapabilities of the operator. I am not trying to change anyone's mind or preferred weapon, but nobody operates any weapon flawlessly 100% of the time. Nobody! What matters is how you deal with problem solving under stress, when it really matters. Some people can do it, and some people can't. Some people don't know they can but will when that time comes. Others think they can and will fail if their time comes.
If I short stroke a pump in an actual emergency situation and then freeze up then I will lose the fight and probably my life. That's just natural selection at work. I know that for me personally the odds of that happening are very low, because I'm not statistically likely to be in another gunfight in my lifetime, and I'm even less likely to be armed with a shotgun. A pistol maybe, but not nearly as likely to be a rifle or shotgun. I still practice and train with them all but it's much more about mindset than platform. Choosing the exact weapon within each platform that works best for you, has the highest degree of reliability, and then understanding and training with it is one of the most important things you can do to ensure success, but there are no guarantees.
And any trainer that doesn't occasionally make mistakes isn't trying very hard.
All good points. On the topic of weapon choices, I was talking to a well known firearms instructor about the use of SG's as a defensive tool. I made the point that pump SG's are susceptible to human error. Auto SG's are susceptible to mechanical malfunctions. So why would anyone choose this weapon??
I got only one word from this instructor and it was....
BINGO!
C4
I kind of got that feeling watching the DVD, like, yes it's a powerful weapon system, but just bring a carbine if possible.
The other aspect of this is that fact that MOST people do not shoot their SG's very often and most likely never logged an hour in a shoot house with one.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with that. I've been to countless 3 gun matches where people bring their shotguns out and don't know how to run them prone, or even the concept of ammo management and when to reload. My benelli eats almost anything, but again most owners don't go out and test out ammo before using their guns, thinking that if it's 12ga it MUSt be good to go.
I kind of got that feeling watching the DVD, like, yes it's a powerful weapon system, but just bring a carbine if possible.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with that. I've been to countless 3 gun matches where people bring their shotguns out and don't know how to run them prone, or even the concept of ammo management and when to reload. My benelli eats almost anything, but again most owners don't go out and test out ammo before using their guns, thinking that if it's 12ga it MUSt be good to go.
Totally agree. The 12ga is GOD's HAMMER. There are trades though. Some of which I am willing to live with and some I am not.
C4
Metallicus
11-12-10, 15:37
I made the point that pump SG's are susceptible to human error. Auto SG's are susceptible to mechanical malfunctions. So why would anyone choose this weapon??
C4
I think that depending on availibilty of other weapon systems, (state regulations) ammunition, and your level of familiarity with the weapon.The 12 gauge shotgun can be the best choice for a defensive firearm.
FishingFool
11-12-10, 15:40
Very good dvd set. Never knew about those particular slug change over techniques. However, the most interesting thing I saw was the inclusion of another firearm safety rule.
I think that depending on availibilty of other weapon systems, (state regulations) ammunition, and your level of familiarity with the weapon.The 12 gauge shotgun can be the best choice for a defensive firearm.
I guess, but most states allow LE and Civy's to use or own an AR or Pistol.
C4
Very good dvd set. Never knew about those particular slug change over techniques. However, the most interesting thing I saw was the inclusion of another firearm safety rule.
Which one specifically?
Metallicus
11-12-10, 15:52
I guess, but most states allow LE and Civy's to use or own an AR or Pistol.
C4
/Threadhijack
Do you consider a pistol a better choice? I ask that question with no sarcasm I've read many of your posts, you are obviously very knowledgeable and I am curious to your thoughts on the subject.
I don't consider a Pistol a better choice though, a well equipped AR yes, but a pistol no matter the caliber or set up is not what I would reach for if a well equipped shotgun is available.
Good question! At the moment my current "night stand gun" is my G17. my 870 is in the safe. The 870 is not equipped to its potential, I'll learn more after the DVD and try running some new techniques and gear.
FishingFool
11-12-10, 16:02
The one about using the safety.
/Threadhijack
Do you consider a pistol a better choice? I ask that question with no sarcasm I've read many of your posts, you are obviously very knowledgeable and I am curious to your thoughts on the subject.
I don't consider a Pistol a better choice though, a well equipped AR yes, but a pistol no matter the caliber or set up is not what I would reach for if a well equipped shotgun is available.
Yes, in certain circumstances. For operating in tight spaces, a pistol is hard to beat. Couple that with the fact that most people either carry a pistol or practice the most with it so that leads me to the conclusion that they are a good choice.
C4
All good points. On the topic of weapon choices, I was talking to a well known firearms instructor about the use of SG's as a defensive tool. I made the point that pump SG's are susceptible to human error. Auto SG's are susceptible to mechanical malfunctions. So why would anyone choose this weapon??
I got only one word from this instructor and it was....
BINGO!
C4
I'm curious, is the properly cared for and fed autoloading shotgun considered for some reason to be less dependable than a carbine or autoloading handgun? I personally have not found this to be the case with my gear. All autos are ammo dependent....feeding your shotgun iffy ammo would not be any wiser than doing the same with your handgun or carbine, so just don't do it, right? I don't have any issues with *any* of my autos, no matter the platform.
I can see how shotgun shells may not be as 'robust' as 5.56 or handgun ammo...being susceptible to damage through multiple loadings/unloadings or other rough handling....you would have to pay attention to that.
Maybe I'm just trying to find ways to defend the auto shotgun, because I just LIKE the dang things. :D
-
Maybe I'm just trying to find ways to defend the auto shotgun, because I just LIKE the dang things. :D
To quote Grant;
BINGO!
Metallicus
11-12-10, 16:55
Yes, in certain circumstances. For operating in tight spaces, a pistol is hard to beat. Couple that with the fact that most people either carry a pistol or practice the most with it so that leads me to the conclusion that they are a good choice.
C4
I can see that, Massod Ayoob did an article in a gun rag I own debunking the shotgun as the king of home defense, saying that most people have never tried to open doors and or operate a phone with a 12g shouldered, both of which are more likely to be necessary then a fight stopping shot.
But I would have to disagree, respectively, I would still consider a shotgun a more versatile choice outside of these circumstances.
I do agree with your familiarity argument, if you've only handled a shotgun on the trap range, but are very familiar with your pistol, a pistol then is obviously the better choice.
I guess it boils down to that, whatever you are comfortable and competent with. Ive handled shotguns since I was quite young, only been seriously shooting pistols with a defensive purpose in mind since I was legally old enough to own one. I don't feel ill equipped with a pistol, but if it came down to it id reach for a shotty.
MarshallDodge
11-12-10, 17:07
Yes, in certain circumstances. For operating in tight spaces, a pistol is hard to beat. Couple that with the fact that most people either carry a pistol or practice the most with it so that leads me to the conclusion that they are a good choice.
I agree with this. I run my pistol way more than my shotgun and just playing around at the range with friends I see how our familiarity with our shotgun of choice is lacking.
To quote Grant;
BINGO!
I knew one of you jokers would throw that in my face :laugh: But it didn't really address my question, is a reliable auto shotgun somehow less reliable than a handgun/carbine?
As far as desireability, I agree with Grant and others that a handgun is probably more versatile/user friendly in many scenarios. But for home defense, where I'm probably going to be barricaded in my bedroom with my family, I'll more than likely grab my shotgun. But that's taking the thread to a whole 'nother place (again).
This is all very educational and interesting to me, regardless. Thanks all.
I'm curious, is the properly cared for and fed autoloading shotgun considered for some reason to be less dependable than a carbine or autoloading handgun? I personally have not found this to be the case with my gear. All autos are ammo dependent....feeding your shotgun iffy ammo would not be any wiser than doing the same with your handgun or carbine, so just don't do it, right? I don't have any issues with *any* of my autos, no matter the platform.
I can see how shotgun shells may not be as 'robust' as 5.56 or handgun ammo...being susceptible to damage through multiple loadings/unloadings or other rough handling....you would have to pay attention to that.
Maybe I'm just trying to find ways to defend the auto shotgun, because I just LIKE the dang things. :D
-
Not as reliable as say a Glock 17 or Colt 6920.
C4
Even in the Shotgun DVDs Chris and Travis mentioned they preferred handguns with mounted lights to any long gun for home defense. The justification they gave was that if they had to move through the house and collect their kids while opening doors, using lights, and using the phone a pistol would be far easier than a long gun.
I can see the point, and in fact keep my G34/X300 stoked with a 33 rd mag for just that purpose. But when I've taken up a defensive position at the top of the stairs, my family behind me, I want a long gun. In my world, that's an AR.
For me it boils down to value earned for dollar spent. For the limited budget I have for equipment, ammunition, and training I get more value spending that on my pistol (primary system) and rifle (secondary system). Yes, a well rounded gunfighter should know how to operate a shotgun, but for me I won't build those skills at the expense of increased capability with my pistol and rifle. The shotgun doesn't represent enough of a benefit to warrant that trade, at least for me.
Of course, to each their own.
Even in the Shotgun DVDs Chris and Travis mentioned they preferred handguns with mounted lights to any long gun for home defense. The justification they gave was that if they had to move through the house and collect their kids while opening doors, using lights, and using the phone a pistol would be far easier than a long gun.
I can see the point, and in fact keep my G34/X300 stoked with a 33 rd mag for just that purpose. But when I've taken up a defensive position at the top of the stairs, my family behind me, I want a long gun. In my world, that's an AR.
For me it boils down to value earned for dollar spent. For the limited budget I have for equipment, ammunition, and training I get more value spending that on my pistol (primary system) and rifle (secondary system). Yes, a well rounded gunfighter should know how to operate a shotgun, but for me I won't build those skills at the expense of increased capability with
my pistol and rifle. The shotgun doesn't represent enough of a benefit to warrant that trade, at least for me.
Of course, to each their own.
Agreed, each scenario differs. If your outdoors at distance where a slug change over with the shotty would be more effective, or Stand off in the bedroom, shotgun would be nice. Clearing rooms in your home with ability of using your free hand, handgun would
Be better.
I just made the switch from an 870 to an 1100.
I went and ran 75 rounds of Federal low brass, 10 rounds of Federal Tactical 00Buck, and 10 rounds of Federal Tactical slug...everything fed 100%. Not a complete test, but an encouraging start.
Shortstroking, handling, semi-auto action...once proven with more rounds downrange, I think the 1100 will be better for me.
BTW, my Magpul Shotgun DVDs arrived this week. I ordered the set from Brownells on the 8th and it arrived on the 10th.
IrishDevil
11-13-10, 11:39
I've learned that the 1100/1187 is not that reliable a platform. They tend to need extensive maintenance/care when the round counts get up in the 1K+ range. They also tend to be more selective on ammo. This is what I've seen in using them for hunting, skeet, and 3-Gun. I've literally worn a 1100 out to the point Remington told me I needed a new gun. That shotgun saw around 20k plus rounds. I switched over to Benelli autos/pumps about 3 years ago and couldn't be happier, just my experience.
All good points. On the topic of weapon choices, I was talking to a well known firearms instructor about the use of SG's as a defensive tool. I made the point that pump SG's are susceptible to human error. Auto SG's are susceptible to mechanical malfunctions. So why would anyone choose this weapon??
Legal and financial limitations.
For example, I am helping a friend in NYC get his first gun which is supposed to be for home defense use:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66788
In NYC, any new longarm purchase is limited to one with a max of five rounds (handguns are limited to 10 round magazines).
The person I am helping cannot afford a Benelli. Longarm permits are less expensive than handgun permits, so I am trying to help him find the best available option. It is difficult for me because I don't have a lot of hands on experience with the guns that he is likley to be choosing from: Mossberg 500s, 590s, or possibly a Remington Express 870. I think the last time I fired a Mossberg 500 was in 1984.
The bulk of my experience is with the Benelli M1 Super90 and a 1983 vintage Remington 870 WIngmaster.
the thing I really liked about the DVD was at the end when they were really explaining how the SG wasn't the best tool for every home defense situation. I think a lot of people dont take into consideration patterning and the idea of what's on the other side of the wall. all in all i thought it was an excellent DVD considering the variety of SGs and SG users.
threeheadeddog
11-13-10, 22:29
I might just have to pick up this dvd. I actually dont even own a viable shotgun(just the single shot NEF that I got for my 14th birthday). I really have no need for a shotgun and dont perticularly see them as anything more than a hobbyist toy. Having said that I would like to start shooting 3-gun and I guess that buying a shotgun would be required:rolleyes:. I have been spending alot of time lately looking at the FN SLP and maby a decent training video could open my eyes to some of the more defensive uses of the shotgun. At the very least it would make me feel better about the $$$ invested:p.
D. Christopher
11-13-10, 23:06
Wow. Calling a platform that's as diverse as the shotgun nothing more than a "hobbyist toy", in a thread about shotguns, in the Shotgun Forum. Thanks for the laugh.
threeheadeddog
11-14-10, 06:37
I was really not trying to offend anyone.
But for me under my circumstances, yes, the shotgun only fills the hobby side of firearm ownership and use. All other roles that I would need a firearm for are filled by other things. Also worth noting is that other than HD and hunting for food pretty much all other uses are in fact hobby related. In most cases hunting is more often a hobby with the benifits of food. That leaves HD and maby finding a way to use the shotgun in this role well would be a good idea. Which is why I said I would look into the DVD.
Great set of training DVD's and it was an eye opener for sure! I have been shooting shotguns all my life and still think they have their place but you have to practice with them even more than with a pistol or carbine which most folks including me don't. I love my 870 and my 11-87 is good with high brass full power ammo only. Looking hard at an FN SLP too. It is just another tool in the toolbox and I like to have lots of tools for any job that may come up. It is not my primary choice to grab off the bat unless it is there by my side along with a handgun on my hip.
Biggest thing I got from the video is that the shotgun is very versatile but also the most complicated system to run. So, a good shotgun class or three is on the list of training for the coming years.:)
Hopefully Santa bring me the vid for Christmas... It would be cool to see something like this before i sign up for an actual class next summer. Got an 870 a couple months ago as a gift but am considering getting an auto loader M2-M4 depending on the price before i get to the class.
I too also prefer to us a pistol for home defense, having a curious 2 YO boy at home I would pefer not to have a shotgun GTG at home.
D. Christopher
11-19-10, 12:43
Mikee, If you've already got an 870 start learning to operate it proficiently. It's like learning to drive with a manual transmission. If you learn with a manual, the auto is a breeze. If you start with the auto, it's not as easy to fall back on the manual. Both platforms do require adequate training and practice, but if you've already got an 870 you should start learning it inside and out right now. Good luck.
stickmans teasing again
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1293/5185823887_9cb2272da6_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5242/5198220091_895ea75727_z.jpg
I noticed Travis using I believe is using the 3 Gun Gear side saddle on his Benelli M-4, since I randomly started out on disk two before I could visualy process the numbers.
lanceriley
11-24-10, 18:38
it's just too bad.. I have a benelli m3. They don't show the manipulations with the benelli m3.
a few years back. I had a side saddle on the benelli m3. It would impede pumping or in it's semi auto state.. same as our range m1s . but now. I see m1s in the video .. and they have side saddles???
Dos Cylindros
11-24-10, 20:31
The main thing I took from the DVD is the differences in the weapon systems. Not just pump vs. auto, but the differences in pumps vs. other pumps like Remington vs. Mossberg, and the autos, Benelli vs. Remington. A different manual of arms and manipulation skill set for each brand. I never really thought about it because as a patrol officer, it was always a Remington 870. My current agency uses the M1S90, but I carry a Colt M4. I flirted with getting a Benelli M4 for the house, but settled on a brand new 870 Police Max to stay with what I am familiar with.
I see the shotty as a great HD weapon, but only as part of a system. If I have to go clear my house, or get to the kids, my handgun will go with me. When I can get them all to a safe area, the shotty will be used to "fend off the hoards" or most likely the one or two intruders. No doubt the AR pattern is a great HD tool, and I use one every day for entry on search warrants, the 12 Ga. hits really hard at HD distance, and I like that.
Blurays are finally shipping. Here on Tuesday.
Jesse Tischauser
12-16-10, 11:16
So does the video teach you anything or just further confuse the never ending "which weapon is best for home defense" debate?
Finally got shipping confirmation from Brownells for the Bluray!:)
I've finally gotten to watch the whole thing. I thoroughly enjoyed it. My wife even got a chuckle out of the outtakes. Definitely made the right move having an 870 and an M1S90. That whole surfing the shells thing out with a Mossy looks like it sucks! All in all I think the vid. was money well spent. I think I'm gonna get the Handgun one next. I don't know if the Cabine ones will be of use ot an "AK guy"?:laugh:
II don't know if the Cabine ones will be of use ot an "AK guy"?:laugh:
I think there is an AK in at least one of the videos. It would be worth checking out and just adopt the necessary weapon manipulations for your platform.
Jesse Tischauser
12-17-10, 10:42
I watched 15 minutes this morning of Disk 1. So far everything is common sense on how to be safe and all the disclaimer crap. I guess some idiots need that stuff too.
I guess some idiots need that stuff too.
Liability as well.
Can't have an idiot shot themselves in the foot and then claim they never heard to not finger f**k the trigger.
Every weapon course must include basic safety.
Maybe after the holidays I get the 4-pack of vids from Brownell's. It's a pretty good deal. Don't have much use for Aerial gunner, but should be entertaining none-the-less.
Maybe after the holidays I get the 4-pack of vids from Brownell's. It's a pretty good deal. Don't have much use for Aerial gunner, but should be entertaining none-the-less.
Hook up a harness system to the mini-van and have the wife do donuts in the cul-de-sac while you hang out the sliding door....:laugh:
Falboy,
I have both the Tactical Carbine I & II. Much of what they go over will apply to an AK or similar platform...
However, Tactical Response has an DVD dedicated to the AK that I got a lot out of, and IMO is worth the purchase price. After buying an AK, with all of my "tactical rifle" experience being with a AR platform, I found myself in need of specific information and their DVD proved an excellent resource.
Drew
Hook up a harness system to the mini-van and have the wife do donuts in the cul-de-sac while you hang out the sliding door....:laugh:
Very funny!:sarcastic: We don't own a stinking minivan!:laugh: But my buddy does have an airplane, hmmmm.....:cool:
Boxerglocker
12-21-10, 19:10
the thing I really liked about the DVD was at the end when they were really explaining how the SG wasn't the best tool for every home defense situation. I think a lot of people dont take into consideration patterning and the idea of what's on the other side of the wall. all in all i thought it was an excellent DVD considering the variety of SGs and SG users.
Very interesting. I look forward to seeing it myself. I found a copy of it in the bottom shelf of the closet, tucked away next to a bag of what appeared to be stocking stuffers for christmas from my GF ;)
Raven Armament
12-23-10, 16:05
I watched 15 minutes this morning of Disk 1. So far everything is common sense on how to be safe and all the disclaimer crap. I guess some idiots need that stuff too.
Hmm, every training course I've been to, including beginner through advanced, has implemented safety messages before the start of the class and after lunch break as well. Complacency is a killer.
Hmm, every training course I've been to, including beginner through advanced, has implemented safety messages before the start of the class and after lunch break as well. Complacency is a killer.
X2. It certainly wasn't overkill on the DVD, and it must be re-stated on a regular basis.
Jesse Tischauser
12-23-10, 16:49
X2. It certainly wasn't overkill on the DVD, and it must be re-stated on a regular basis.
You guys are WAY too serious. If you NEEDED the safety rules restated then you need to shoot more.
The first DVD taught me a few things I didn't know about my 870's operation. I did not know how to do the selecta slug load stuff with that platform. If I ever need to load a random slug or two I'll be able to do that now. I never run the gun in competition or training it just stands guard in the corner of the bedroom.
I didn't learn a thing about running my M1 or M2 other than I can speed reload about 5x faster than Chris' partner can. He really should have practiced that technique more in order to earn a little more respect from me. That to me is one of the most important things you can do with a shotgun since it runs out if ammo so quickly.
The cruiser safe stuff was new to me but not really my thing since I'm not an operator. Good common sense stuff though!
I lost a little respect for the Mossberg pump with respect to having to dump two rounds before you could load two more. The 870 and Benelli have a leg up on that aspect of the game.
Well to each their own. But put it this way, the only thing really being hurt when you hear the safety brief "too much" is your pride :D
CumbiaDude
12-23-10, 19:24
I lost a little respect for the Mossberg pump with respect to having to dump two rounds before you could load two more. The 870 and Benelli have a leg up on that aspect of the game.Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't have the DVD, but I do have a Mossberg, so this could be important information :D
Raven Armament
12-23-10, 22:12
You guys are WAY too serious. If you NEEDED the safety rules restated then you need to shoot more.
I take safety quite seriously. I also shoot just about every day as I own a firearm and ammunition manufacturing company and perform testing almost daily. Every morning when the employees arrive, we have a 5 minute safety briefing and then begin the work. It isn't about experience. Safety is a mindset.
I didn't learn a thing about running my M1 or M2 other than I can speed reload about 5x faster than Chris' partner can. He really should have practiced that technique more in order to earn a little more respect from me. That to me is one of the most important things you can do with a shotgun since it runs out if ammo so quickly.
I seriously doubt Costa's partner had a primary goal of impressing you or obtaining your respect for his reloading speed on a DVD set. That aside, if you want to pick priorities, I think making your lethal hits with the rounds that are in the gun take priority over reloading speed. Accuracy then volume.
I just got mine yesterday. I'm on disk one, and it makes me wanna go to the gun store and pick up some more 12 ga dummy rounds and a new Benelli.
I watched that shotgun magpul video on youtube and I realized something.
If you can choose your shoulder fired weapon, and are not hung up on the shotgun shells "mightyness", shotguns seem to be very inferior weapons systems.
They require more manual of arms and movement than necessary compared to an auto loading mag fed carbine.
Alaskapopo
12-26-10, 01:55
/Threadhijack
Do you consider a pistol a better choice? I ask that question with no sarcasm I've read many of your posts, you are obviously very knowledgeable and I am curious to your thoughts on the subject.
I don't consider a Pistol a better choice though, a well equipped AR yes, but a pistol no matter the caliber or set up is not what I would reach for if a well equipped shotgun is available.
While I prefer a carbine a shotgun is a very formidable weapon and is definately better than a pistol.
The reasons it beats a pistol is hit proability. Long guns are easier to hit with even at close range when compared to a handgun. The only time the handguns starts to have an edge is when you get into A class to Master class USPSA shooters. Shotguns have a lot more terminal performance than even the best pistol rounds.
Pat
Jesse Tischauser
12-26-10, 02:39
I watched that shotgun magpul video on youtube and I realized something.
If you can choose your shoulder fired weapon, and are not hung up on the shotgun shells "mightyness", shotguns seem to be very inferior weapons systems.
They require more manual of arms and movement than necessary compared to an auto loading mag fed carbine.
Did you think the video was created to try to convince you that the shotgun was the be all, end all of defense weapons? An AR15 with a 100 round beta mag strapped in is pretty tough to beat for available firepower and ease if use. But what it you live in an apartment where over penetration means you are going to be shooting your neighbors or your family? See my point? The shotgun, pistol, carbine or any weapon system can serve a purpose in defense. You gotta decide what platform best fits your defense situation and THEN watch the magpul or any other video for that weapon system to learn how to become proficient with it. Or do like most of us an watch all the videos and keep every weapon platform on hand so you are ready with any weapon platform no matter what situation presents itself.
Alaskapopo
12-26-10, 03:28
Did you think the video was created to try to convince you that the shotgun was the be all, end all of defense weapons? An AR15 with a 100 round beta mag strapped in is pretty tough to beat for available firepower and ease if use. But what it you live in an apartment where over penetration means you are going to be shooting your neighbors or your family? See my point? The shotgun, pistol, carbine or any weapon system can serve a purpose in defense. You gotta decide what platform best fits your defense situation and THEN watch the magpul or any other video for that weapon system to learn how to become proficient with it. Or do like most of us an watch all the videos and keep every weapon platform on hand so you are ready with any weapon platform no matter what situation presents itself.
Jesse you actually have to worry about over penetration less with the 5.56 carbine. Unless your loading bird shot in the shotgun. Most 5.56 rounds penetrate less in common buildings than service handgun calibers like the 9mm, 40sw and 45 acp. That is one of the reasons why leo SWAT teams have started to drop using sub guns and gone to M4 type weapons for entries. It used to be thought that the pistol rounds would have less penetration but that has proven to be false. The 5.56 is a light bullet that slows down and breaks up quickly. The shotgun still has a role but its more limited. You need shotguns as breaching weapons. Up here we use shotguns loaded with slugs like big bore rifles to deal with bear and moose problems. Shotguns are very formidable close range weapons. I have seen the way you handle a shotgun and I am glad you're one of the good guys. Merry Christmas.
Pat
Jesse Tischauser
12-27-10, 06:22
Pat,
My point was that the video and this thread is about running a shotgun efficiently. Not the old which gun is better for home defense or now which gun has the best/worst penetration for home defense. This thread lacks any real info or reviews if the shotgun video.
Jesse,
I own the video. I feel that it covers operating both semi and pump shotguns very well. I have had extensive training running a shotgun both through CLEET Firearms Instructor School and TDSA Advance Combat Shotgun and still was able to learn several things from this video. I don't know how much a 3-gunner will learn from it because I haven't had much experience in that realm. I do believe that it is very effective for LEO training. I especially like the fact that on the 3rd DVD has a drills section that recaps the drills learned through the first two DVD's. I mainly purchased this video to use as an aide for developing a LEO shotgun operators course for my department. I don't believe Magpul is trying to say its the end all weapons system but offering the training course because there are a lot of people that depend on shotguns in their everyday life or use them in competition.
Jesse Tischauser
01-13-11, 11:29
So I finally finished the DVD's. My favorite part was the out takes. Other than that, I gotta say I was less than impressed. I would not recommend this training DVD to anyone in competition. If you so much as shoot one or two 3 gun matches you will know more than these guys do about running a shotgun fast in a 3 gun competition.
I was also unimpressed in that they never really told us how to shoot the gun faster. I can't remember any talk of target transitions, recoil control or getting the gun up and on target fast.
All of the advice was about how to manipulate the different weapon systems.
I would say this video would help someone that has never shot a shotgun and only needs to do so for home defense or LE/MIL. I would not risk my life on the advice or techniques taught on the DVD's. I would seek in person professional training first.
Raven Armament
01-13-11, 11:34
Training videos are not a replacement for professional training.
MD does not train for competition. Training is not competition and competition is not training.
When your DVD comes out, I'd like to see it.
Jesse Tischauser
01-13-11, 12:17
I am sorry to have insulted you with my review of their video. :confused:
Training videos are not a replacement for professional training.
I didn't say that training videos are a replacement for real training. If you read my post I said just the opposite. I wanted to makes sure that the guy at home that buys this video thinking that it is the be all, end all of of shotgun training should think otherwise and get real trainging on the range. Thanks for reiterating what I said. I am glad we can agree!
MD does not train for competition.
They had two competitive shooters on the DVD so it made me think that it might have some legitamacy in the competitive shooting world. I found that it did not. So I posted my finding in this thread that is discussing the merits of the videos.
Furthermore, Travis mentioned in the video that he personally trains for competitons on one and possibly two occasions.
Training is not competition...
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. If you don't comete with yourself in training how are you going to know if you are getting better? Every trip t the range should be a personal competition with your own scores, times, rounds, drills you ran at the last training session.
...competition is not training.
I could not agree less! Have you ever heard of the SWAT Nationals? That seems to be a competition and training all in one. I personally know several Military and LE shooters out on the major USPSA, 3 Gun, and IDPA tour that would disagree with you as well.
When your DVD comes out, I'd like to see it.
I am not in the business of making training DVD's. I shoot competitons, period. Although you could probably watch my videos of me shooting competitions and learn more about shooting fast than you could from this video.
Thanks for your review of my post rather than a review of the video this thread is discussing.
Metallicus
01-13-11, 13:03
All of the advice was about how to manipulate the different weapon systems.
Both instructors have said countless times in all of their videos
"This is just weapon manipulation" "The building blocks"
And that can be applied to all training, its all just honing of thefundementals, any "Special secret techique" is prolly just someone asking for more money so you can take ADVANCED BUSTIN CAPS level 3
Im not disagreeing with you im just saying, I didnt think they said that it would be "a endall to shotgunning" I think it was in line with the rest of their dvds and very well done.
Jesse Tischauser
01-13-11, 13:21
Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't have the DVD, but I do have a Mossberg, so this could be important information :D
Sorry I missed your question earlier. Basically in order to load two slugs or buck or anything into the already fully loaded mossberg that they had on the DVD you had to remove or pump out two rounds then reload the tube and chamber. There was no way to onely dump one round like you could with the Benelli or 870. Sorry that's the best I can explain it in writing.
This would occur when you had the gun full of buck and decided you needed two slugs for some 100 yard shots.
Jesse Tischauser
01-13-11, 13:27
Both instructors have said countless times in all of their videos
"This is just weapon manipulation" "The building blocks"
And that can be applied to all training, its all just honing of thefundementals, any "Special secret techique" is prolly just someone asking for more money so you can take ADVANCED BUSTIN CAPS level 3
Im not disagreeing with you im just saying, I didnt think they said that it would be "a endall to shotgunning" I think it was in line with the rest of their dvds and very well done.
I agree with you they did a great job on showing me how to run 3-4 different shotguns and teaching the old selecta slug/buck thing as well as some other positional things. In fact, I learned one really good thing about my 870 that I didn't know.
I was really hoping to learn some more about shooting fast too. So that was where my disappointment came in mostly.
I guess I was looking for something more than the building blocks.
I am anxiuous to see where the other videos take me as I bought all of them except the helicopter one.
CumbiaDude
01-15-11, 19:47
Sorry I missed your question earlier. Basically in order to load two slugs or buck or anything into the already fully loaded mossberg that they had on the DVD you had to remove or pump out two rounds then reload the tube and chamber. There was no way to onely dump one round like you could with the Benelli or 870. Sorry that's the best I can explain it in writing.
This would occur when you had the gun full of buck and decided you needed two slugs for some 100 yard shots.How are you able to do it on the other shotguns? Bring the pump back, then drop a round into the chamber and put another into the tube?
I don't have a Benelli or Remington, so I don't know what I don't know :D
.
I was really hoping to learn some more about shooting fast too. So that was where my disappointment came in mostly.
I guess I was looking for something more than the building blocks.
JT, not for nothing but your "review" of the dvd's wasnt exactly clear in what you were trying to state. It kind of came across as though you felt as if you had something to prove yourself.
These DVD's if anything, serve as a primer for the courses that MD offers. As others have said they are not a substitute for range time under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor.
These videos have no target audience other than the average joe with a basic interest in learning how to operate several different weapons platforms.
Too many people these days seem to forget that there are ALOT of Joes out there with absolutely no idea how to even load a firearm let alone actually shoot it.
These videos were excellent in regard to what they set out to accomplish. A basic overview of several very popular weapon systems, ala ar15, 870 etc.
The videos are not meant to be super ubersauce whiz bang go fast shoot to kill, ninja roll, idpa combat master, direct inject instant absorption cheat codes.
I happened to think i had the best looking gun in the dvd
I happened to think i had the best looking gun in the dvd
Best looking gun or best looking man? :haha:
What are you REALLY trying to say Steve? :)
Jesse Tischauser
01-15-11, 23:55
JT, not for nothing but your "review" of the dvd's wasnt exactly clear in what you were trying to state. It kind of came across as though you felt as if you had something to prove yourself.
These DVD's if anything, serve as a primer for the courses that MD offers. As others have said they are not a substitute for range time under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor.
These videos have no target audience other than the average joe with a basic interest in learning how to operate several different weapons platforms.
Too many people these days seem to forget that there are ALOT of Joes out there with absolutely no idea how to even load a firearm let alone actually shoot it.
These videos were excellent in regard to what they set out to accomplish. A basic overview of several very popular weapon systems, ala ar15, 870 etc.
The videos are not meant to be super ubersauce whiz bang go fast shoot to kill, ninja roll, idpa combat master, direct inject instant absorption cheat codes.
You are correct! I should have been more clear and said if you just bought a shotgun and have never run one before this video is for you.
If you would consider yourself an average or better shotgunner this video might teach you something obscure that you will probably never use unless you carry a shotgun daily on duty.
I should have also said if you are planning to shoot competitive shotgun in IPSC or 3 gun don't buy the video just ask your question on the forum.
I am sorry I was so confusing in my review.
Sorry I missed your question earlier. Basically in order to load two slugs or buck or anything into the already fully loaded mossberg that they had on the DVD you had to remove or pump out two rounds then reload the tube and chamber. There was no way to onely dump one round like you could with the Benelli or 870. Sorry that's the best I can explain it in writing.
This would occur when you had the gun full of buck and decided you needed two slugs for some 100 yard shots.
That's the gross motor skill way of doing it with a Mossberg.
You can also hit the shell stop pull down on the shell and the spring pressure will take it out of the mag. Then load slug into the mag. Press slide release and rack out buck and load slug.
I can see why they teach it the way they do. Gross motor skills vs. fine motor skills.
Hook up a harness system to the mini-van and have the wife do donuts in the cul-de-sac while you hang out the sliding door....:laugh:
That was funny. Thanks for the laugh
Jesse Tischauser
02-03-11, 14:16
I happened to think i had the best looking gun in the dvd
Dude your shotguns and 3rd degree burns were bitchin'! If I ever hit the lotto I'm gonna get some of that SBX stuff just cause we can:)
Best looking gun or best looking man? :haha:
What are you REALLY trying to say Steve? :)
No Im ugly i know that.....
the gun is sexy
The burns sucked :haha:
yhmspecter
02-13-11, 22:55
I just ordered the blu ray set, cant wait to get it, it will be good like the rest of the series
If anything, the video presents the viewer with a lot of topics to think about when employing a shotgun. The sheer variety in manual of arms for the different shotgun systems out there is pretty mind boggling.
I doubt it would be possible to make a single comprehensive video about shotguns solely due to that fact alone... it's not like making a carbine video where the majority of users (in this country at least) are employing the AR platform.
I remember there was one class I read about where they did a drill where they'd stage malfunctions in everyone's shotguns, then you'd step over, pick up your neighbor's shotgun, and had to diagnose and shoot a round from the strange shotgun as fast as you could. Pretty slick idea to underscore the point that just knowing your own shotgun system doesn't mean you know anything about the others. :cool:
I totally concur that the average user will shoot their pistol or carbine more in practice than their shotguns. A few reasons come to mind though... many ranges don't allow shotguns on the shorter pistol ranges, and the rifle ranges usually are 50+ yards, so unless you are happy slinging slugs all day (ouch), it limits your options. Not everyone has access to a trap or skeet facility. There is always the physical discomfort aspect to shotguns too... they do tend to beat you up a bit. :(
I FINALLY got around to watching the first DVD. I had to stop it at the Cruzer Ready w/ 2 Slugs due to information overload. While I know how to load and shoot my shotgun, there's a lot of stuff to consider and practice.
I took some time to read-over the thread. It seems pretty clear that there are differing opinions on the video and the topic concerning the use of a shotgun in combat/ defense.
I won't delve into the debate regarding over whether the shotgun is the right tool/ viable defensive weapon.
The videos are worth watching in my opinion. Chris Costa and Travis Haley took a pretty broad subject and covered a great deal over the course of the films.
I thought it was a good choice to focus on the Remington 870, Benelli M1, and the Mossberg shotguns. These three shotguns are likely the more widely used for home defense/ duty use.
As someone already said, it is difficult to cover every issue concerning the shotgun, but the video highlights manipulation drills, stance, recoil control techniques (push-pull), patterning, slug-use, and accessories. As well as moving while firing, both forward and back. And firing from the prone position.
In the final part of the film, there are some simulated scenarios regarding the drills/ exercises performed in the training. The LEOs are placed into likely engagements, the two competitors run a competitive style course, and the non-LEOs are placed into a home defense type situation where the effects of shot patterns are focused upon.
Overall, I enjoyed the video. I have not yet had the opportunity to train with the MagPul Organization, but believe it would be worthwhile. I have watched all of their films, except for the arial gunner video.
I believe if you own a shotgun and have had limited exposure to different techniques, considerations, and training specifically with the shotgun then you will benefit from watching the videos.
My 2 cents.
SkiDevil
P.S. I thought it was pretty cool that some of the students were able to try-out some of Chris/ Travis's shotguns. Nothing really provides better understanding of the different actions/ brands than by actually using them.
I took some time to read-over the thread. It seems pretty clear that there are differing opinions on the video and the topic concerning the use of a shotgun in combat/ defense.
I won't delve into the debate regarding over whether the shotgun is the right tool/ viable defensive weapon.
The videos are worth watching in my opinion. Chris Costa and Travis Haley took a pretty broad subject and covered a great deal over the course of the films.
I thought it was a good choice to focus on the Remington 870, Benelli M1, and the Mossberg shotguns. These three shotguns are likely the more widely used for home defense/ duty use.
As someone already said, it is difficult to cover every issue concerning the shotgun, but the video highlights manipulation drills, stance, recoil control techniques (push-pull), patterning, slug-use, and accessories. As well as moving while firing, both forward and back. And firing from the prone position.
In the final part of the film, there are some simulated scenarios regarding the drills/ exercises performed in the training. The LEOs are placed into likely engagements, the two competitors run a competitive style course, and the non-LEOs are placed into a home defense type situation where the effects of shot patterns are focused upon.
Overall, I enjoyed the video. I have not yet had the opportunity to train with the MagPul Organization, but believe it would be worthwhile. I have watched all of their films, except for the arial gunner video.
I believe if you own a shotgun and have had limited exposure to different techniques, considerations, and training specifically with the shotgun then you will benefit from watching the videos.
My 2 cents.
SkiDevil
P.S. I thought it was pretty cool that some of the students were able to try-out some of Chris/ Travis's shotguns. Nothing really provides better understanding of the different actions/ brands than by actually using them.
Well said SkiDevil!
BTW, where on the totem pole of life is your 2 cents? :rolleyes::D
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