Home defense for apartments...

[dialM4murder]

I'm thinking a shotgun with bird shot loads is the way to go here. Much less penetration than pistol ammo or 00 buckshot.

What say ye?

[Buckaroo]

Another idea

http://www.polyshok.com/

Discussed here by LEOs
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=8657750#post8657750

[Jay Cunningham]

I think anything other than 00 buck or slugs are a bad idea.

I think the SG is a bad idea compared to a 5.56mm SBR, which I think is ideal for apartment defense.

Personally my go to gun is a 9mm Glock but I keep either a 5.56mm AR or AK in a high state of readiness.

And yes, I live in an apartment and have put a bit of thought into it.

[Buckaroo]

This perp did not last long....
http://www.polyshok.com/journal_of_forensic_sciences.htm

[dialM4murder]

I think anything other than 00 buck or slugs are a bad idea.

I think the SG is a bad idea compared to a 5.56mm SBR, which I think is ideal for apartment defense.

Personally my go to gun is a 9mm Glock but I keep either a 5.56mm AR or AK in a high state of readiness.

And yes, I live in an apartment and have put a bit of thought into it.

I take it your using a low grain JHP in the Glock?

I can see the SBR with a low grain JHP, but the noise is an issue. 556 is loud enough, adding it to a SBR inside an enclosed area = hearing damage.

[Packman73]

I prefer a 12g with 00 buckshot.

[dialM4murder]

Another idea

http://www.polyshok.com/

Discussed here by LEOs
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=8657750#post8657750

Im very intrigued by this load. Seems they wont sell to civies though.

[Jay Cunningham]

I take it your using a low grain JHP in the Glock?

I can see the SBR with a low grain JHP, but the noise is an issue. 556 is loud enough, adding it to a SBR inside an enclosed area = hearing damage.

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P in the Glock.

An SBR makes the addition of a suppressor that much more practical. Anyway, I'll worry about any potential hearing loss later.

[dialM4murder]

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P in the Glock.


I'm currently carrying the exact load in my SigPro 2022.

[Don Robison]

If you're going to use a shotgun take a look at using #4 or #1 buckshot of the 2 3/4" variety. Leave the birdshot for birds. It makes a nasty looking wound, but in reality it leaves superficial wounds. Even an ugly chick gets lucky sometimes, just like sometimes people get lucky with birdshot. I'd rather not rely on luck. Just my opinion YMMV.

[buzby]

i am in the process of moving from a house into an apartment, and am going through the same dilemma. using 00 buck now but that's not going to be practical anymore. was thinking either a lighter 12 gauge load (maybe low recoil) or going with my .45, or even 55gr hp in my carbine

[C4IGrant]

I would use an AR with TAP for the least chance of killing your neighbors.



C4

[Jay Cunningham]

I would use an AR with TAP for the least chance of killing your neighbors.



C4

That's what I use - sometimes in the AR, sometimes in the AK-102 (1/7 barrel)...

[dialM4murder]

firing an AR in an apartment = permanent hearing damage?

[Jay Cunningham]

firing an AR in an apartment = permanent hearing damage?

I mentioned before that, yes, it's a distinct possibility. An SBR allows for a suppressor and retains compact size - otherwise, I'll worry about hearing loss after the fight is won.

[John_Wayne777]

firing an AR in an apartment = permanent hearing damage?

I've been on a stack of guys that have gone into a room and opened up with M4s inside a shoot house while wearing no ear protection.

It's not a pleasant experience, but it didn't blow out my eardrums or knock me unconscious.

In other words, you may well experience some hearing damage...but it isn't likely to be serious damage that really degrades your hearing. I still have very sharp hearing.

In the moment where you need to use an AR to stop a threat hearing loss shouldn't even be on the menu of things to worry about. Your plate will already be plenty full.

[nationwide]

I keep my 11.5" AR next to the bed loaded with Hornady TAP 55gr (Red box, .223).

If you've never seen it, it's worth the effort to make up a few sections of fake wall (sheet rock, wall paper, wood frame, air space between the sheet rock). With TAP, you get one .223 hole going in, and several tiny holes comming out. Those fragments will have less likelihood of killing an innocent on the other side of that wall than anything else propelled by smokeless powder you will put through it.

[Alpha Sierra]

firing an AR in an apartment = permanent hearing damage?

I'm pretty sure that shooting ANY centerfire firearm inside an apartment without a sound suppressor is definitely getting you a severe case of tinnitus and some hearing loss.

[soul rebel]

Is anyone really going to stop to think about their hearing loss when they are busy shooting someone? I've done plenty of stupid things that have given me permanent hearing damage, I don't think I'll stop to put on earmuffs when I hear someone breaking in.

[R.D.]

While I don't live in an apartment I live in a soft sided house(not brick) in a densely populated area. I run 60 gr. TAP LE in my 14.5 LMT and 165 Speer gold dot jhp in my G23. I figure if I do my part and hit my intended target that I'll not have too much to worry about in regards to liability from over penetration. IMHO the last thing I am worried about is hearing damage. If I am shooting someone in my place they are an immediate threat to me and my family so I'll deal with hearing loss later.

[olds442tyguy]

If you're going to use a shotgun, get reduced power 00B. Less sound, less recoil, and less penetration.

Bird shot is worthless, and will hardly penetrate clothing. Just look at Dick Cheney. He caught a guy point blank in the face and all it did was lift the skin off his face due to the angle he was shot at. Slugs over penetrate, have a lot of recoil, are louder due to the increased powder, and are completely over kill for a human being. Don't use slugs, no ifs, ands, or buts.


I'd opt for a handgun or carbine over a shotgun though. They're sloppy, slow, harder to use under pressure, and have limited capacity.

[Hootiewho]

I have praised the effects of Hornady's Black Box tap 60 grain ballistic tip before on AR15.com because of how it has performed on deer and coyotes that I have shot with it., and have had many others argue that it would not be a good defensive round. I hunt with a suppressor in some woodlots close to residential housing and I am very careful with shot placement. I have found that these rounds will exit a coyote almost always out of 12.5 &16" barrels. On a head of neck shot on a deer, the result is devastating. On a body shot, whatever the bullet contacts turns into a jello like mush. Occasionally a fragment will exit, but most of the time not. Now with a deer this can pose a problem for lack of blood trail, but on the flip side, all of the bullets energy is expended on the target, and even if you had a deer or two legged critter in your apartment and shot it in the head the fragments would very unlikely penetrate any walls. Some argued with me in discussion about these bullets that if you shot someone and it hit them in the arm, it wouldn't penetrate to a vital organ; but I promise that arm will not be usable any longer, and in half a second you can correct fire and hit in the head or chest. A hit to the leg would render that leg useless. If I lived in an apartment, I would have an SBR loaded up with these over anything else.

[9DivDoc]

I would use an AR with TAP for the least chance of killing your neighbors.



C4

I'd also put up steel plate back book shelves with thick rubber cow mats glued on them:D

[Derek_Connor]

Hearing loss and collateral damage (property or human life) are ALWAYS possiblities inside an apartment/house no matter what type of weapon system (shotgun, rifle, sbr, sbr with suppressor). Suppressed weapons can still cause hearing damage.

The main question is to what degree...

Find the best balance of both that allows you to end the threat(s) efficiently and protect your loved ones.

Do you worry about your weapon system that penetrates less? Or do you use the weapon system that you are more efficient with?

I remember at a carbine class earlier last year a gentleman was discussing whe he uses a shotgun instead of carbine..but he rarely trains with his shotgun. I gave him one of those "huh" looks as he was gearing up for another string during his carbine class training


I have heard the same arguement about using a pistol...

#1 priority? I would assume it to end the threat, everything else takes second/third/fourth place. Do what you need to do first and train with a weapon system that allows you to do #1 first, and hopefully that system you have trained with helps out with #2, #3, and #4

[RYBACK]

When using a shotgun you need to think about gun handling techniques - can you move, employ your weapon and engage a threat in tight quarters if necessary? How long or short is your shotgun and can you engage targets(threat) effectively?
A shotgun is not a "room sweeper" like in the movies - you still need to aim and ID your target (threat). Nothing smaller than #4 Buck. I would suggest a good quality handgun (Glock/S&W M&P/Springfield XD) with nightfighting capabilities (nightsights/tactical light) instead of a shotgun for appartments. Regardless which - practice/train!

[toddackerman]

Do your research!. Ar15 loads have less penetration through walls than 00buckshot.

Birdshot will just Piss somone of on "Angel Dust".


Your 9mm will travel to the next county once it gets outside you walls.

This is serious stuff!

Personally, I'd use #4 buck as a primary cinsideration , but woud prefer m193 from my carbine.

Remenber three concepts....

1. The projetile going in,

2. The projectile coming out, and

3 where will it end up.

You'r responsible for all 3.

There are a lot of advocates of #1 Buchshot, but I don't have the data to support this theory.

[120mm]

Is it consider de rigeur to link to "Box 'o' Truth" on this forum?

This isn't scientific testing data, and doesn't pretend to be, but it does give one something to think about.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[toddackerman]

Very good post 120mm.

Takes a lot of guess work out of projectile penetration.

Keep it up!

Tack

[Joseywales]

Do your research!. Ar15 loads have less penetration through walls than 00buckshot.

100% true. Maybe some day they will make them like plastic balls covered by copper for home defense.


Birdshot will just Piss somone of on "Angel Dust".

Not so true. I have seen pictures of a guy whose jaw was shot off his face by a shotgun that was 5 feet away. You can blow the crap out of someone with it and a surgeon can only pick out the pellets. Very low recovery. Buck shot does more damage, but will go through walls.



Your 9mm will travel to the next county once it gets outside you walls.

Will go through 2 - 4 hollow walls, but will drop to the ground around 50 feed after penetration of one wall with insulation.

This is serious stuff!

Personally, I'd use #4 buck as a primary cinsideration , but woud prefer m193 from my carbine.

Remenber three concepts....

1. The projetile going in,

2. The projectile coming out, and

3 where will it end up.

You'r responsible for all 3.

There are a lot of advocates of #1 Buchshot, but I don't have the data to support this theory.[/QUOTE]

[Joseywales]

I am a big supporter of NOT using a shotgun for home defense. It is great in open areas. But 99% of most homes have too many confined spaces to effectively defend using a shotgun.

When would a shotgun be the right tool in a house:
1. You are in a room and behind cover several feet from the entrance. No one else lives in the dwelling with you. You are facing away from your neighbor or own your own house and your walls are 20 feet away from the nearest dwelling.
2. You have no other option due to poor planning.
3. You live in a large one-room home.
4. You live in a house that is very open and spacious with no doorways that are across from each other and the hallways are 15 feet wide.
5. You have a AOW permit for a short barreled shotgun with a 10" barrel and pistol grip.
6. You want the ability to shoot through walls and don't care what is on the other side.

When is a shotgun the wrong tool in a house.
1. If you live in a normal size house
2. Your neighbor shares a wall with you or your house is closer than 20' to the next.
3. You have to clear rooms and hallways in your home to get to other family members.
4. You have to leave your room and can't go out the window.
5. You need to go check a "sound" you heard in another part of the house.
6. You are one of those unlucky souls who believe that racking the slide will scare away an intruder, and as a consequence, the intruder shoots through the wall and kills you and your family because you gave away your location and lost the advantage of surprise.

Do yourself a favor, buy a reliable, battle-proven designed handgun.

[dialM4murder]

I am a big supporter of NOT using a shotgun for home defense. It is great in open areas. But 99% of most homes have too many confined spaces to effectively defend using a shotgun.

When would a shotgun be the right tool in a house:
1. You are in a room and behind cover several feet from the entrance. No one else lives in the dwelling with you. You are facing away from your neighbor or own your own house and your walls are 20 feet away from the nearest dwelling.
2. You have no other option due to poor planning.
3. You live in a large one-room home.
4. You live in a house that is very open and spacious with no doorways that are across from each other and the hallways are 15 feet wide.
5. You have a AOW permit for a short barreled shotgun with a 10" barrel and pistol grip.
6. You want the ability to shoot through walls and don't care what is on the other side.

When is a shotgun the wrong tool in a house.
1. If you live in a normal size house
2. Your neighbor shares a wall with you or your house is closer than 20' to the next.
3. You have to clear rooms and hallways in your home to get to other family members.
4. You have to leave your room and can't go out the window.
5. You need to go check a "sound" you heard in another part of the house.
6. You are one of those unlucky souls who believe that racking the slide will scare away an intruder, and as a consequence, the intruder shoots through the wall and kills you and your family because you gave away your location and lost the advantage of surprise.

Do yourself a favor, buy a reliable, battle-proven designed handgun.

I live in an apartment. I share a wall on either side. Im thinking steel core in .308 is the way to go. :eek:
No really, I still haven't got a clue whats best. Based on your previous post, are you advocating the carbine?

[toddackerman]

If you're going to use a shotgun, get reduced power 00B. Less sound, less recoil, and less penetration.

Bird shot is worthless, and will hardly penetrate clothing. Just look at Dick Cheney. He caught a guy point blank in the face and all it did was lift the skin off his face due to the angle he was shot at. Slugs over penetrate, have a lot of recoil, are louder due to the increased powder, and are completely over kill for a human being. Don't use slugs, no ifs, ands, or buts.


I'd opt for a handgun or carbine over a shotgun though. They're sloppy, slow, harder to use under pressure, and have limited capacity.

Yep!

Tack

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

This is what I use in my shorty Saiga 12 for home defense, it is great all around ammo. The round dosent expand until is hits something. It is consistant out to 150yards on a 10in steel plate and I have tested it in breaching and is the best round I have found as a multi purpose load.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/simplydynamic/SAIGA.jpg
here is a write up from their website:

Animal Shootings . . .
Two animal shootings recently by New England wildlife officers are worth noting:

A 1,000 + lb. moose had been hit by a car and was wandering around dazed in traffic on a heavily traveled highway. Wildlife officers shot the moose in the neck from behind so that the impact was towards his brain. The moose collapsed dead with this single shot. There was no exit wound.
A 300 + lb. black bear was harassing an urban neighborhood. As the bear faced them, wildlife officers shot the bear in the chest and killed it with a single shot. Again, no exit wound.

In both cases, officers praised the Polyshok 12 gauge round for allowing them to kill a large animal with a single shot, and for the ability to take the shots in traffic and in an urban area without fear of collateral damage.


http://polyshok.com/
I also have some mags loaded with deftech wooden baton and rubber ball less than leathal

[Combat_Medic]

I think anything other than 00 buck or slugs are a bad idea.

I think the SG is a bad idea compared to a 5.56mm SBR, which I think is ideal for apartment defense.

Personally my go to gun is a 9mm Glock but I keep either a 5.56mm AR or AK in a high state of readiness.

And yes, I live in an apartment and have put a bit of thought into it.

I agree 00 buck... no good..I know someone that works for Fish and wildlife and was DEEP in the woods and came across an abandoned house. He decided to "Test" the 00 Buck. It went in one side of the house through the kitchen refrigerator and stove and came out the other side of the house.... I have 2/12 tactical loads in my House..if I was in an apt ..I would use I guess a Turkey load??

[User Name]

Bird shot is for "birds". It leaves a grusome looking wound but it's very shallow. I don't know any knowledgable shotgun instructors that have ever said anything good about birdshot. That said if I was worried about over penetration I'd use an AR.

[Joseywales]

I live in an apartment. I share a wall on either side. Im thinking steel core in .308 is the way to go. :eek:
No really, I still haven't got a clue whats best. Based on your previous post, are you advocating the carbine?

Not easy to use in a house or apartment due to its length. I advocate the handgun with a heavy slow moving bullet. Preferably one of these bullets if not heavy and slow moving. I prefer Glaser Safety Slugs or similar in 45ACP.

[dialM4murder]

Not easy to use in a house or apartment due to its length. I advocate the handgun with a heavy slow moving bullet. Preferably one of these bullets if not heavy and slow moving. I prefer Glaser Safety Slugs or similar in 45ACP.

Thats great seeing as how im about to purchase a Glock 21 SF.

[toddackerman]

Not easy to use in a house or apartment due to its length. I advocate the handgun with a heavy slow moving bullet. Preferably one of these bullets if not heavy and slow moving. I prefer Glaser Safety Slugs or similar in 45ACP.

What type of penetration are you expecting out of the "Safety Slug"? Remember the 12" rule.?

You might want to take a look at the Federal .45 ACP "Expanding Flat Point" round. Last I looked, they had the Gel Tests on their Website. As I remember, it penetrates deeper than the hollow points or "Specialty Ammo". They also perform well in functioning per my tests.

Tack

[FJB]

Travis,
I have been thinking about a Saiga 12 for a semi-auto shotgun. How has it been running and is finicky with ammo, i.e. runs slugs and 00B, but not target loads etc. Also, it looks like the Pic Rail on it will support a Micro T-1 extremely well.

Et al,
Just got this DTI Quip today from John Farnam about using 00B. The real tragedy in this whole experience is that there will be two Winchester M97s that will probably be destroyed.

S/F

24 Oct 07

Birdshot for defense? This is from an LEO, and one of our instructors, in
WY:

"One occasionally hears the suggestion that birdshot, from a shotgun, is an
effective home-defense load. The argument is that is won't penetrate
excessively, that it is 'effective' at close range, ad nauseam.

I'm currently involved in a murder investigation that has convinced me,
beyond all doubt, that the use of birdshot as a defense load is a poor idea
indeed!

Our perpetrator, in a high state of intoxication, decided to settle an old
score with the victim. After informing the victim of his intentions, he
armed himself with an old, Winchester M97 and charged the tube with WW,
full-power, 9-pellet, 00 buckshot. Meanwhile, the victim locked himself in his
auto-repair shop, and, anticipating the confrontation, also armed himself
with, of all things, another Winchester M97, but he charged his tube with low-brass, #6 birdshot. The evidence suggests that the victim didn't know much about guns in general, shotguns in particular, and virtually nothing about shotgun ammunition. He obviously thought 'ammunition is ammunition.'

The lethal confrontation took place in the repair shop, with the two
combatants separated by less than two meters.

The perpetrator opened festivities by using his shotgun to blow the lock off
a locked door. It took two rounds of buckshot. The lock was demolished,
and the door blown open.

There was a refrigerator just inside the door, and the victim was a few feet
away, on the other side. As the perpetrator advanced, the victim fired one
round at him. His aim was poor, and most of the lead shot hit (and failed
to penetrate) the refrigerator door. A few struck the perpetrator in the face,
destroying his right eye.

The startled perpetrator pulled his head back but immediately rolled back
out from behind the refrigerator and fired a single shot. All nine pellets of
00 buckshot struck the victim in the center of his torso. The victim probably suffered a fatal injury, falling where he was hit. The perpetrator then
walked over to the victim, who was laying on his back, and fired a second shot
into his face from only a few inches. The victim's head was blown to
pieces. When we found the body, he was, long since, DRT!

Our perpetrator then walked out the shop, got in his truck, and drove nearly
one hundred miles to the small, ranching community where he lived. Only
when his eye injury was pointed out to him, as well as the fact that his shirt
and trousers were soaked in blood (mostly his own), did he grudgingly concede that he might need medical attention. Hours later, we arrested him at the hospital where he sought aid. He is now on trial for murder and will most likely spend the rest of his life, with only one eye, in prison.

Just another local idiot who had too much liquid courage!"

Comment: When it is your intention to defend yourself successfully,
particularly against evil and determined individuals, you're well advised to use a weapon and load that will end the fight quickly and decisively. And, you
better be an adequate marksman too, as you'll likely not get a second chance!

It's an age-old lesson that this victim learned the hard way. Unhappily, he
didn't live long enough to put his new-found knowledge to work!

/John

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Travis,
I have been thinking about a Saiga 12 for a semi-auto shotgun. How has it been running and is finicky with ammo, i.e. runs slugs and 00B, but not target loads etc. Also, it looks like the Pic Rail on it will support a Micro T-1 extremely well.

Freddie,

I didnt have any problems running game loads in my Saiga, brand new I put about 200 rds of game load for breaching with it (shoot house loads). Slugs and breeching rounds worked fine, but I started running into problems with it on OObuck... since then, it has been down and I have my Saiga smith looking into it.

As far as the T-1..for sure! I was running a Doctor on it, but was getting beat to hell so I was always stessed about it, But as soon as I get another T-1 in I am going to do a test run with it...hint hint...

By the way nice mug shot on SWAT there Col!

[rsilvers]

The smallest shot I would even consider is #4 buck - even for an apartment and my first choice would still be 00 reduced recoil.

[RyanB]

I picked a top floor apartment with no structures or other apartments behind my door for a reason. The south wall of my place is the only entrance, and it's as close to a free fire zone as the burbs will safely allow.

[Savior 6]

I'm thinking a shotgun with bird shot loads is the way to go here. Much less penetration than pistol ammo or 00 buckshot.

What say ye?

Had a Buddy answering the door point blanked with bird shot. Thank God the criminals used bird shot because he's still alive.

[RWK]

Had a Buddy answering the door point blanked with bird shot. Thank God the criminals used bird shot because he's still alive.

He obviously wasn't wearing a down-filled coat. Otherwise the birdshot might have worked! :p

[ToddG]

(disregard, mispost)