View Full Version : Stippling not IDPA legal?
I just read in the IDPA rulebook that stippling is not allowed in SSP. Does this mean I cannot use the stippled backstrap of my M&P?
Robb Jensen
10-30-10, 08:16
Correct. You can however use skateboard tape.
You can stipple grips for ESP, CDP.
Thanks. Good thing I read the rulebook again and confirmed here before competing. Thanks again.
From what I can gather, stippling the backstrap is okay, just nowhere else on the gun. Check this thread at the IDPA forums: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/reply/34469/t/M-P-shooters-what-upgrades-should-I-get.html
Here is what Robert Ray said in a reply to my question regarding aftermarket sharkskin grips. I have asked him to rule on work completed by the shooter. Note in his reply the front strap cannot get the same treatment and I think on the above gun the front strap has had the same treatment. If it has then the gun goes to ESP.
"Ok, the problem with SSP is this. We have always said that after market grips were ok as long as they were not weighted. With the interchangeable back straps like Walther, S&W M&P and H&K guns it is not really any different than changing out a set of factory Sig grips for another more aggressive set. It's not a permanent modification. Unfortunately I really see no other option at this time than to say that the non-permanent treatment would be legal. The removable back strap would be ok but not the work done elsewhere such as the front strap, trigger or trigger guard."
Thank you,
Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association
Rosco Benson
10-30-10, 09:23
Wow! :rolleyes: Ultra-silly.
I suppose one could just cover up their stippling with skateboard tape and hope they don't peek.
I understand the motivation of avoiding a game-gun equipment race (I recall Hackathorn saying that they wanted the guy with the Ruger P-85 and an Uncle Mike's holster to be able to come out and not feel daunted), but some of this stuff isn't reasonable.
I guess one can just shoot ESP or CDP and forget it. Others will choose just to forget it altogether.
Rosco
Robb Jensen
10-30-10, 09:27
Wow! :rolleyes: Ultra-silly.
I suppose one could just cover up their stippling with skateboard tape and hope they don't peek.
I understand the motivation of avoiding a game-gun equipment race (I recall Hackathorn saying that they wanted the guy with the Ruger P-85 and an Uncle Mike's holster to be able to come out and not feel daunted), but some of this stuff isn't reasonable.
I guess one can just shoot ESP or CDP and forget it. Others will choose just to forget it altogether.
Rosco
I understand the logic but the execution is illogical:
Skateboard tape = legal
Soldering Iron/heat stippling = not legal
The spirit of the IDPA rules were, I assume, to let people compete with the same simple, reliable equipment that they would carry daily. I wouldn't put tape on a daily carry gun because (a) it's too rough and (b) tape eventually peels off, especially if carried and sweated on regularly.
My daily carry gun is stippled. If that puts me in ESP, so be it.
threeheadeddog
11-07-10, 16:16
I hate that rule. I have shot IDPA for a few years and for a while was shooting a Sig in SSP. I stippled the grips and the plastic on those perticular grips was very abrasive and Sig grips cover a huge amount of area on the frame. I could not shoot much more than a couple hundered rounds a day and would have wounds, but to this day that is the gun that was the easiest to control for me.
Fast forward to now and I had to buy 2 M&P's just so I could stipple one frame up for carry and keep one factory soap-smooth for competition. But I do use a stippled backstrap since IDPA technically considers this a removable grip just like a set of grips for any metal framed gun.
If you are just getting started at the club level- nobody will care. People, espeically CSO's, are more concerned about you learning the game and shooting safely. If they have a problem with it, they will probably just say "hey, you might want to change that or use something else next time"
As a CSO though, if I know you've been shooting IDPA long enough to know better and you tend to be a gamer/try to cheat type...then I'll call you on it.
At the club level though, most people are just out of a good time and don't sweat the small stuff.
Fast forward to now and I had to buy 2 M&P's just so I could stipple one frame up for carry and keep one factory soap-smooth for competition. But I do use a stippled backstrap since IDPA technically considers this a removable grip just like a set of grips for any metal framed gun.
Or you could shoot in ESP and not worry about it.
SSP was designed for factory configuration stock guns. If you want to make permanent grip mods to your gun, go shoot in ESP.
That being said, I have some form of grip tape on all my carry guns, Glocks, 1911s, Kahrs and SIGs. Grip tape works, is SSP legal and stays on for 6 months or more on my daily carry gun. You just need to prep well before applying it.
Gringop
Let's not forget that ESP and SSP are virtually the same division. There is no piece of equipment that is legal in ESP (and illegal in SSP) that gives such an advantage that it allows an inferior shooter to beat a superior one.
It's nothing like USPSA's Limited verses Production, where the difference in equipment is quite meaningful. In IDPA, the better SSP shooter will always beat the inferior ESP shooter, and vice versa. Just shoot whatever division your gun (with its mods) puts you in, and your chances of winning won't be affected much.
Robb Jensen
11-11-10, 13:36
Let's not forget that ESP and SSP are virtually the same division. There is no piece of equipment that is legal in ESP (and illegal in SSP) that gives such an advantage that it allows an inferior shooter to beat a superior one.
It's nothing like USPSA's Limited verses Production, where the difference in equipment is quite meaningful. In IDPA, the better SSP shooter will always beat the inferior ESP shooter, and vice versa. Just shoot whatever division your gun (with its mods) puts you in, and your chances of winning won't be affected much.
You forgot this rule:
ESP shooters can use single action guns, i.e. a 9mm 1911.
SSP have to use a double action first shot gun.
You forgot this rule:
ESP shooters can use single action guns, i.e. a 9mm 1911.
SSP have to use a double action first shot gun.
I didn't forget that rule. The SA trigger pull is an advantage, but it's not going to let an inferior shooter beat a superior one. I mean, look at the latest IDPA Nationals results. Bob Vogel won CDP handily with a G21, and Sevigny had the best overall time with a G34.
I still say that the difference between ESP and SSP isn't enough to let an inferior shooter win due to superior equipment. Not the same way as it can happen in USPSA at least.
I didn't forget that rule. The SA trigger pull is an advantage, but it's not going to let an inferior shooter beat a superior one. I mean, look at the latest IDPA Nationals results. Bob Vogel won CDP handily with a G21, and Sevigny had the best overall time with a G34.
I still say that the difference between ESP and SSP isn't enough to let an inferior shooter win due to superior equipment. Not the same way as it can happen in USPSA at least.
I agree...the difference is slight.
threeheadeddog
11-11-10, 18:48
Actually I do shoot ESP most of the time but I refuse to shoot ESP in non-club lvl matches because of what is IMHO the single biggest loophole/gamemanship/atrocity of the IDPA rules.
That is that in ESP a 9mm 1911 can use 9rd mags. It is kind of hit or miss on if it ends up being an advantage, since it depends entirely on the design of the stages. In the end though this is simply stupid. I am not allowed to download my mags to be fair(because mine "can" hold more). This bugs me on principal as much as anything. I will not argue if it actually matters, because I simply dont care. I just get torqued about this one little thing. I would rather ESP not have a mag limit than give an advantage to someone by allowing them to use LESS ammo.
Honestly I think a 9rd magazine is a handicap way more than it is an advantage, and all the 9mm 1911 guys I know barney up with 10rd mags..but I see what you are saying.
What bugs me is the XD has to shoot ESP- if the M&P can shoot SSP, the XD should be able to as well...but that's a whole 'nuther can o worms
That is that in ESP a 9mm 1911 can use 9rd mags. It is kind of hit or miss on if it ends up being an advantage, since it depends entirely on the design of the stages.
If it is hit and miss, exactly why does it irritate you so much?
If it is hit and miss, exactly why does it irritate you so much?
I'm not saying I've seen it happen, but at major matches where there is a different set of SO's for every stage it would be pretty easy to pull out the 10 rounders or the 9 rounders depending on which would yield an advantage.
Anyway, the point is, if you have a Glock or an M&P that has a mod that bumps it into ESP don't sweat it too much. Nothing should stop you from placing where you should normally place. And for club matches, does anyone look at the division results anyway? I thought people only cared about the overall results for club matches - so why would the division matter?
theblackknight
11-11-10, 20:19
wow I was looking to get into IDPA over USPSA being to "gamie", does this mean my stippled M&P 9 is no go?
Robb Jensen
11-11-10, 21:14
I didn't forget that rule. The SA trigger pull is an advantage, but it's not going to let an inferior shooter beat a superior one. I mean, look at the latest IDPA Nationals results. Bob Vogel won CDP handily with a G21, and Sevigny had the best overall time with a G34.
I still say that the difference between ESP and SSP isn't enough to let an inferior shooter win due to superior equipment. Not the same way as it can happen in USPSA at least.
True my point being is that a DA gun HAS TO be used in SSP. A DA gun CAN be used in ESP but a SA-only gun CANNOT be used in SSP. If you've ever fired a 9mm 1911 with factory ammo it's like shooting a .22LR. You can get pretty close with the right handloads using a DA/SA like a SIG/Beretta/CZ, a Glock or a M&P but those same loads in a 9mm 1911 will feel like squibs. It's hard to beat a 9mm 1911 for recoil management.
wow I was looking to get into IDPA over USPSA being to "gamie", does this mean my stippled M&P 9 is no go?
No. You can either cover the stippled grip with skateboard/grip tape for SSP division or just shoot in ESP division.
Bolt_Overide
11-11-10, 22:07
seems kind of silly to me as well, but their game, their rules.
If you've ever fired a 9mm 1911 with factory ammo it's like shooting a .22LR.
It's hard to beat a 9mm 1911 for recoil management.
Absolutely true. But they sure do seem to be finicky. Even the well made ones.
I thought people only cared about the overall results for club matches - so why would the division matter?
I don't care about the results at all, at least not in terms of how I relate to someone else. I have often described local area match results as a list of 50 names, half of who will look at, half again of who will understand and half again of who will actually care. That's a damn small group of people.
On the original subject, I agree with whoever said that a bad shooter with a 9mm 1911 is not going to beat a good shooter with a stippled G34. and if they do, and you're in that tiny group who cares, get better and beat his ass. Outshooting 20+ AR shooters on the Modified Navy Qual at Pat Rogers class with an AK was one of the few times I ever got a kick out of winning. :sarcastic:
Absolutely true. But they sure do seem to be finicky. Even the well made ones.
Some of this is a function of the kind of person that's going to buy one of these. They are far more likely to be looking for incremental improvements (often beyond their skill level) in buying the gun to begin with and they'll carry that over to an attempt at tinkering to make it even "better".
The biggest contrast I've seen at USPSA after years of IDPA shooting is the number of guns that malf and the subsequent brain trust discussions that go on at the safe table trying to figure out why. :sarcastic:
Some of this is a function of the kind of person that's going to buy one of these. They are far more likely to be looking for incremental improvements (often beyond their skill level) in buying the gun to begin with and they'll carry that over to an attempt at tinkering to make it even "better".
The biggest contrast I've seen at USPSA after years of IDPA shooting is the number of guns that malf and the subsequent brain trust discussions that go on at the safe table trying to figure out why. :sarcastic:
I would agree. In general, the folks I see who switch over to a 9mm 1911 were not 1911 "enthusiasts" (stolen from LAV) to begin with. Chasing the hardware instead of improving the software. I'm an IDPA club contact and match director. I don't know how many times i've been asked to stop what i'm doing to diagnose a pistol.:laugh:
I would agree. In general, the folks I see who switch over to a 9mm 1911 were not 1911 "enthusiasts" (stolen from LAV) to begin with. Chasing the hardware instead of improving the software. I'm an IDPA club contact and match director. I don't know how many times i've been asked to stop what i'm doing to diagnose a pistol.:laugh:
Ugh. I love 1911's. I consider myself a 1911 guy. And I'm pretty decent at working on them, for an amateur. I will NOT go to the safe area to look at someone's malfunctioning 1911. Too many times I've seen shell casings stuck in the chamber and said, "Well, you've either got bad brass, an out of spec chamber, or a bad extractor. Let's field strip it and take a look." And the owner of the gun has looked at me and said, "I'm not worried. I think it's the magazines." :suicide:
Never been to the big matches myself, but my buddies were talkin that at the WI state match, if you weren't going to load to div capacity- they would mark your hands with a sharpie so all the SO's would know
Robb Jensen
11-12-10, 12:40
Some of this is a function of the kind of person that's going to buy one of these. They are far more likely to be looking for incremental improvements (often beyond their skill level) in buying the gun to begin with and they'll carry that over to an attempt at tinkering to make it even "better".
The biggest contrast I've seen at USPSA after years of IDPA shooting is the number of guns that malf and the subsequent brain trust discussions that go on at the safe table trying to figure out why. :sarcastic:
Depends on who you're talking about.
Scott Warren (CEO of Warren Tactical) shoots a 9mm 1911 in Single-stack for USPSA and for ESP in IDPA. He's a Master class shooter in both and isn't lacking in the least as a pistol shooter. He was on my squad last Sunday at the last 2010 Fredericksburg USPSA match. Needless to say even though he was shooting Minor power factor he still won Single-stack. IIRC he just turned 60 this year and just very recently retired from the FBI.
Depends on who you're talking about.
Scott Warren (CEO of Warren Tactical) shoots a 9mm 1911 in Single-stack for USPSA and for ESP in IDPA. He's a Master class shooter in both and isn't lacking in the least as a pistol shooter. He was on my squad last Sunday at the last 2010 Fredericksburg USPSA match. Needless to say even though he was shooting Minor power factor he still won Single-stack. IIRC he just turned 60 this year and just very recently retired from the FBI.
...some people think shooting single stack minor is an advantage...
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