View Full Version : First SBR - procedural questions
mrjinglesusa
10-31-10, 12:17
OK, I've decided to make an SBR and am going the Trust route. I've read practically every thread in the NFA forum and think I have this right.
1. Order lower from BCM and have shipped to my FFL.
2. Pick up lower from FFL and send off to be engraved with name of my trust, city, state.
3. Receive engraved lower from engraver.
4. Fill out BATF forms with serial number of lower
5. Send in paperwork to BATF
6. Receive stamp
7. Order upper
8. Receive upper, attach to registered lower
9. Amend Schedule A of Trust with the new SBR
My question is, since I cannot own the SBR until I get stamp from BATF, i can't put it on the Schedule A sent to the BATF with my paperwork. So, on the Schedule A I send with my Trust to the BATF, do I list the lower from step 3 above, or leave it off completely until I get my stamp?
Thanks in advance. The reason I ask is that it seems some people put the SBR to be on their Schedule A sent to BATF, but I've read that some people have had these returned because Examiner said they can't have an SBR as property in the Trust until they get approval and stamp.
2. (snip) send off to be engraved with name of my trust, city, state.
3. Receive engraved lower from engraver.
4. Fill out BATF forms with serial number of lower
5. Send in paperwork to BATF
I can't address your trust questions, but I have always filled out and submitted the ATF paperwork prior to, or concurrent with, having the receiver engraved. I didn't see any reason/requirement to have the receiver engraved before submitting the ATF forms. Could save you a couple of weeks overall.
mrjinglesusa
10-31-10, 12:42
I can't address your trust questions, but I have always filled out and submitted the ATF paperwork prior to, or concurrent with, having the receiver engraved. I didn't see any reason/requirement to have the receiver engraved before submitting the ATF forms. Could save you a couple of weeks overall.
The problem with that, as I understand it, is that if for any reason your paperwork gets approved before you get your receiver back from the engraver, your engraver will be in illegal possession of your NFA item. Don't want to risk that...
RAM Engineer
10-31-10, 13:03
Another problem is, what if you get your paperwork back and the lower gets lost/stolen during transit to/from the engraver? You now have a missing class 3 item on your hands.
Don't do stupid stuff.
The problem with that, as I understand it, is that if for any reason your paperwork gets approved before you get your receiver back from the engraver, your engraver will be in illegal possession of your NFA item. Don't want to risk that...
Of course do what you think is right.
But AFAIK there's no law/regulation against anyone engraving an AR lower receiver. Plus no engraver has ever asked to see NFA paperwork to engrave my name/city/state on an AR lower. An SBR isn't an SBR until you put the short barreled upper on it.
From the ATF website:
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html
The problem with that, as I understand it, is that if for any reason your paperwork gets approved before you get your receiver back from the engraver, your engraver will be in illegal possession of your NFA item. Don't want to risk that...
The two engravers I know, Orion and Ident Marking, are both 01/07 FFLs and can be in possession.
IIRC You need to get fingerprints for the ATF form, so you may want to research who can do this for you (I'm sure you already have-hopefully you can get it done digitally). Don't forget you need to send in two identical forms for the ATF.
I sent a couple lowers to Ident and it took a few weeks to get them back. I sent my forms into the ATF prior to receiving them back, just to speed up the process. I guess if they would have been lost, I would have been out $400 and wasted the $$ on engraving, fingerprints, and passport photos.
RAM Engineer
10-31-10, 14:45
IIRC You need to get fingerprints for the ATF form, so you may want to research who can do this for you (I'm sure you already have-hopefully you can get it done digitally). Don't forget you need to send in two identical forms for the ATF.
No fingerprints required for a trust.
InfiniteArms
10-31-10, 16:50
The problem with that, as I understand it, is that if for any reason your paperwork gets approved before you get your receiver back from the engraver, your engraver will be in illegal possession of your NFA item. Don't want to risk that...
Easy solution, find an engraver who is serious about firearms engraving and has a 07/SOT. Then if your paperwork comes back approved they can possess the lower as a repair without breaking any laws.
Even better is find an engraver who can do simple SBR marking in < 2 months. (PM for names, don't want to advertise)
As for being lost in transit it doesn't matter if its a class 1 stripped lower or a class 2 SBR stripped lower, you do the paperwork and let the ATF handle it from there.
Even better is find an engraver who can do simple SBR marking in < 2 months. (PM for names, don't want to advertise).
Ident Marking (http://www.identmarking.com/) in Texas returned my engraved lower in less than 3 weeks. Orion Arms (http://www.orion-arms.com/gun-engraving/short-barrel-rifle-engraving-locations.html) in Minnesota is currently quoting 4 weeks turnaround time. Both are excellent firearms engravers. Ident Marking tends to be a little cheaper and a little quicker on the turnaround.
InfiniteArms
10-31-10, 20:41
Ident Marking (http://www.identmarking.com/) in Texas returned my engraved lower in less than 3 weeks. Orion Arms (http://www.orion-arms.com/gun-engraving/short-barrel-rifle-engraving-locations.html) in Minnesota is currently quoting 4 weeks turnaround time. Both are excellent firearms engravers. Ident Marking tends to be a little cheaper and a little quicker on the turnaround.
Never tried Ident Marking but two BIG thumbs up for Orion.
I think there is some over-thinking here to be honest. Also, since the average wait for a Form 1 approval is around 90 days (based on what I have seen) I doubt that you will get it approved before it has been engraved and received by you.
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