An observation on intermediate caliber rifles: It's truly an AR/AK world [Archive]

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kal

11-01-10, 00:19

mashed68

11-01-10, 10:50

Its an AR and AK world because for 50yrs the world has been flooded with these weapons from superpowers that give them away like candy. There are better options, but they aren't supported and therefore will never be as main stream.

kal

11-01-10, 14:49

There are better options

Doesn't look like it to me. Not in the US and around $1,000 unless a person is looking for a niche weapon.

The AR and AK, in their price ranges, meet more criteria than their competitors.

Having more options wouldn't make a difference.

DaBears_85

11-01-10, 15:03

There are better options, but they aren't supported and therefore will never be as main stream.

How can a platform qualify as a better option if it isn't supported?

Pikey

11-01-10, 19:35

.....at least in the US.:D

Both of these rifle designs, in my opinion, are the best options in their respective price ranges.

For a sub-$1,000 rifle system, you just can't beat the AK. It's the most proliferated, supported, reliable, and ergonomic system in that price range.

Its competitors don't stand a chance. Either parts are hard to find/expensive, are not as modular, or have an incredibly poor control lay out, or have poor QC/were never really designed for defensive purposes.

For a $1,000+ rifle system, I find the AR system practically perfect. It's very well supported, reliable when built to mil-spec or better, modular, and has one of the best control lay outs for such an old rifle design.

The AR's competitors are either unproven or are simply too much money for what they are and what they do (probably applies to most consumers and their needs).

Discuss.........

I have to ask, how is an AK modular? How is anything on a AK other then the trigger well layed out? Or ergonomic? My understanding is that the AK was designed for offensive use not so much defensive.

The reason we are in a sort of golden age of shoot fast guns is because we have a good choice, and parts supply/support, of guns other then AR and AK's. VZ58, Sig 556, Scar, Robinson Arms, Steyr AUG, MSAR 556, FAL, G3, Benelli, and several others I missed.

They all do the same thing. Which one you choose is a matter of preference. The point is you do not have to buy only AK or AR for the reasons you listed.

kal

11-01-10, 20:04

I have to ask, how is an AK modular? How is anything on a AK other then the trigger well layed out? Or ergonomic? My understanding is that the AK was designed for offensive use not so much defensive.

The reason we are in a sort of golden age of shoot fast guns is because we have a good choice, and parts supply/support, of guns other then AR and AK's. VZ58, Sig 556, Scar, Robinson Arms, Steyr AUG, MSAR 556, FAL, G3, Benelli, and several others I missed.

They all do the same thing. Which one you choose is a matter of preference. The point is you do not have to buy only AK or AR for the reasons you listed.

You have to break the weapons down.

Let's look at the sub-$1,000 intermediate caliber rifles that compete with a good AK.

Century C93/Vector V93
Century/ORF Galil
Cenury VZ58
Kel Tec SU16
Ruger Mini-14
others I may have missed.....

HK93 copies have expensive mags and parts that are not very proliferated. The controls are horrid. The selector switch is high and far away. Most civie versions of HK rifles have the button mag release which is too far away to push with the index finger. Even the flap on real 93's are still somewhat protected by the trigger gaurd. The charging handle folds and therefore you can't just use gross motor function to grab onto it.

Galil clones have backward thumb side selector switches, causing a rifleman to have to do the "HK tilt" to put it on fire mode (you can still use the right side lever). Charging handle that is not friendly with receiver mounted optics. Protected mag release forces a person to feel or look for the release.

VZ58 has no way of allowing receiver mounted optics out the box and there's no aftermarket accessory that I know of. Mag release is protected. Bolt hold open doesn't serve a purpose if there's no external release.

SU16 and Ruger Mini 14 have been noted to be poor fighting weapons due to poor durability and reliability.

The AK can have a side rail out the box. The selector switch doesn't force the user to dismount the rifle from the shoulder or turn the rifle side ways to activate an unreachable thumb switch. The mag release is ambi, is NOT protected and thus, is operated without thought. Very durable and reliable design. The AK is very versatile and fulfils more requirements for its price in todays market compared to its similarly priced competitors.

crusader377

11-01-10, 20:15

.....at least in the US.:D

Both of these rifle designs, in my opinion, are the best options in their respective price ranges.

For a sub-$1,000 rifle system, you just can't beat the AK. It's the most proliferated, supported, reliable, and ergonomic system in that price range.

Its competitors don't stand a chance. Either parts are hard to find/expensive, are not as modular, or have an incredibly poor control lay out, or have poor QC/were never really designed for defensive purposes.

For a $1,000+ rifle system, I find the AR system practically perfect. It's very well supported, reliable when built to mil-spec or better, modular, and has one of the best control lay outs for such an old rifle design.

The AR's competitors are either unproven or are simply too much money for what they are and what they do (probably applies to most consumers and their needs).

Discuss.........

Good observation, I would like to add it is not just an AR/AK world in the U.S. but worldwide. I would venture to guess that AK and AR pattern rifles probably make up more than 90% of the intermediate caliber rifles worldwide. No other assault rifle platform comes close in being battle tested than the AK and AR.

lloydkristmas

11-01-10, 23:31

I will agree with you in regards to your comment about solid alternatives being highly priced, however they are still viable alternatives.....

If I had a sizeable budget for a weapon and plenty of parts to go with it, I dont know if either the AK or the AR would be at the top of the list, but they would certainly be close.

At this point in time, it seems like the only weapon to top the AR (price aside) is the FN SCAR. Even then, are the differences/advantages worth the price? Depends, I guess.

As far as alternatives.....

The Galil is better than the AK in most every regard, but the only Galils worth buying are very high priced.

The G36 series is great, but suffers from typical HK ergonomics problems. It just feels bloated.

The FS2000 fixes the ambidexterity issues with the bullpup, but its tough to mount lights, and the charging handle is questionably durable.

The ACR had potential, but it kind of fell flat. Unless they start offering the Remington military version, pass.

The AUG A3 is a great CQB gun.....if youre right handed.

The Sig 556 is decent, but not nearly up to par with the original Sig 55x series rifles.

There are quite a few other options, some work for others, some dont. I personally find the AR grip way too skinny, and therefore uncomfortable. To me, the grip size and safety placement on the G36 series is almost perfect. BUT I have monster hands and what works for me doesnt work for everyone.

Most quality alternatives are priced high enough that they will likely never gain the mainstream following that the AR has.

misanthropist

11-02-10, 12:51

VZ58 has no way of allowing receiver mounted optics out the box and there's no aftermarket accessory that I know of. Mag release is protected. Bolt hold open doesn't serve a purpose if there's no external release.

In Canada the VZ platform is popular (largely due to the fact that the AK series is prohibited by name in our criminal code).

As a result there have been a lot of parts built for them up here which in my opinion make it a player at least in the Canadian market - it would be useless here to be proficient in the operating the AK series because odds of finding one to use would be practically zero. There are loads of VZs though.

Anyway, optics mounting options go like this:

http://store.troyind.com/Galil_BattleRail_p/srai-vz5-80bt-00.htm

The company that designed (and in Canada at least still builds) that Troy rail also offers this option:

http://northeasternarms.com/platforms.php?plat=CZ858&part=SA0005

plus

http://northeasternarms.com/platforms.php?plat=CZ858&part=CLM0001

The rails on the stock adapter are in line with the rails on the Troy battle rail, so BUIS can be mounted as well.

Mag release options exist:

http://www.neitarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4

Finally, the bolt hold open can be addressed this way:

http://www.neitarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=1

But I agree with the general premise of the post...it is an AR/AK world. I have a VZ-pattern rifle myself and like it a lot, though. My only complaint at the moment is that the optic is a leftover Eotech which won't co-witness...sooner or later I intend to swap it out for a T1 and that will be the end of it though.

Canonshooter

11-02-10, 14:28

Having owned ARs, a M1A, M1 Garand, Mini14s and a HK-91 in the past, and currently own one AK and one AR (I am a handgunner at heart), I would concur with most of the observations above.

The AR platform, once you get one put together correctly with good parts, is no doubt "America's Rifle." But things seem to go wrong more quickly and more easily with ARs if care is not taken in building with battle-proven parts.

AKs have always been considered a "poor man's rifle" and has historically suffered with a primitive design and lack of quality aftermarket support. It seems that has changed over the last decade or so since knowledgeable gunsmiths such as Marc Krebs have begun specializing in the platform. When I purchased my AK103-k from him about 5 years ago, it was evident that the platform can be assembled in a quality manner with quality parts, but that still didn't address some of the problems with the basic design (lousy ergonomics, crappy sights, etc.).

Happily, one can now upgrade an AK to address some of these issues. While there are thousands of threads on Internet forums about the latest "mod profile" for an AR, there has been a lack of the same for the AK. It seems that many are not quite sure what should be done with an AK to raise it above the rudimentary battle rifle status it has long been stuck with.

For me, I've spent much time with the AK considering what I want/need in a IDPA carbine/SHTF defense rifle. After spending an ungodly amount of time researching available parts/accessories and looking at what others have done, I have modified my Krebs rifle to the point where it has grown on me quite mightily. Finally, a rifle that I have 100% confidence in, that feels good to hold, feels good to shoot, that can be aimed and shots placed on-target with considerable speed and accuracy, and absolutely/positively goes "bang" every time. In short, this is without hesitiation my go-to rifle, even though I have much more time, money and aggrevation in my AR.

So yes, I would have to say that it really is an AK/AR world. The difference in my case is that I took the lesser of the 2 platforms and tried to make it as good as it can be (for my purposes). It has worked out far better than I ever expected.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ak103k-14.jpg

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ak103k-15.jpg

AKrinkov

11-05-10, 15:18

Canonshooter,
I've seen pictures of your AK on another thread here before and I have to say, nicely done!
That's one of the few that I see with the AFG.
Can you please give us a rundown on some of the accessories / customizing you've done to it?
I've wanted to ask since the last time I saw it...
Sorry if I'm veering off topic, but it's well done and I think some of the new guys, like myself, would benefit from it.

kal

11-05-10, 15:59

In Canada the VZ platform is popular (largely due to the fact that the AK series is prohibited by name in our criminal code).

I was talking about the US market. I understand Canada's situation regarding the AK.

With something like the VZ58, having all those improvements (ie: upgraded mag release, bolt release, etc.) would simply drive the cost upwards to that of an entry level AR15.

Canonshooter

11-05-10, 20:37

NeitArms

11-06-10, 12:25

I was talking about the US market. I understand Canada's situation regarding the AK.

With something like the VZ58, having all those improvements (ie: upgraded mag release, bolt release, etc.) would simply drive the cost upwards to that of an entry level AR15.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh86/dlmcfaul/BlackTan2.jpg

Because of the volume being distributed of VZ 58 accessories by companies such as ours, the prices of most items have dropped substantially, as well as the number of available options is growing quickly.

You can set up a rifle for a couple hundred dollars with all the bells and whistles.. you can spend that on one or two AR components.

... All the while getting into a platform far superior in terms of operation, maintenance and reliability than the AR, and offering accuracy, strength and features that the AK lacks. (I think that should cover offending everyone ;) ).

I have seen very few people that have run the VZ that have went back to another platform afterwards. But there are VAST differences in preferences just due to availability of consumables and weapons themselves. ie: In Canada I can get a standard VZ for $650, trick it out with all the fancy doo-dads I want available locally and feed it Czech Surplus Ammo by the crate for $170 or by the pallet (as we do) for a price that'd make you drool. On the other hand, in the US you have AR's and .223/5.56 ammo for prices that us up North would kill for. Availability cost usually trumps when it comes to sport shooters.

We deal with military orgs and soldiers worldwide that run the VZ as well as competitive shooters.. there are very few that would trade in their VZ for anything else when it comes to relying on function. Too often people defend their choice to the end for reasons more like "The best they can afford, or the best available" rather than just "the best" (though few will admit it). Is the VZ the best platform out there? I would say that after 10 years in the military and having used literally every battle rifle in NATO and most Combloc weapons, the VZ is my 2nd favorite next to my SIG 550. I do have AR's, but when it comes to training, competing, or using in combat.. they stay at home. I have never chosen to use one that was not chosen for me (or issued to me).

misanthropist

11-06-10, 16:38

I was talking about the US market. I understand Canada's situation regarding the AK.

With something like the VZ58, having all those improvements (ie: upgraded mag release, bolt release, etc.) would simply drive the cost upwards to that of an entry level AR15.

I hear you on the US situation and I think that probably describes most of the world...I am just offering an interesting exception to the rule.

I would also agree that building up a VZ puts them in range of an entry-level AR price-wise. But I would rather have a tricked out VZ than an entry-level AR.

The only thing I don't particularly care for on the VZ is the caliber...I am not a fan of x39, really. But even considering this drawback (which as noted above is a bit of a financial advantage, in Canada at least) I would take a Neit- and NEA-equipped VZ over a cheap AR any day. I'd rather have a Colt et al AR than any VZ, but then up here, at least, you are looking at 4 times the cost, plus double the ammo cost.

I would also tend to take a VZ over an AK, but then I don't have a ton of experience with AKs...so part of my preference is related to my familiarity with the VZ platform. But I believe that if the VZ was as common as the AK, you would see a lot more people moving to the VZ.

variablebinary

11-06-10, 18:46

Provided you like the AR15, and AK.

However, a significant amount of people want zero to do with the AR15 or the AK for whatever reason.

If you hate buffer tubes and direct gas for example, it aint no AR15 world for you. These are the people that get SCAR's, XCR's, ACR's, Steyr's, SIG 556's (LOL) etc etc etc

It's like saying it's a Glock world because they own 75% of the LEO business and cost $500. If it was the end all be all, there would be no M&P, P30, or SIG P250 (LOL).

My point being, it doesn't matter if the AR15 is $1000 or $500, if a buyer thinks it is ass, their needs and wants will never be met by one.

Magic_Salad0892

11-07-10, 02:20

if a buyer thinks it is ass, their needs and wants will never be met by one.

Not necessarily. I hate the Steyr AUG design, but I've shot pretty well with one when I did handle it. Much better bull-pups out there.

I would like to see a civilian FAMAS, TBH.