View Full Version : Afghan/Recon Scout discussion
wild_wild_wes
11-01-10, 20:56
Who is shooting an Afghan or Recon Scout? How would you best describe their place in the AR pantheon?
Nice topic for thought....my personal def. would be:
Match grade 14.5" SS w. medium contour, mid length gas in a 1/7th with a Wylde chamber.
1-4x optic like a baby nxs w. the compact mil dot.
12" FF rail
Match trigger and a Atlas or harris bipod
I honestly believe the precision based 14.5" has an equal place in the AR world along with the Recce 16" and the SPR 18"....its my next project:)
Who is shooting an Afghan or Recon Scout? How would you best describe their place in the AR pantheon?
I don't have alot of trigger time with it yet. But I like mine. Very accurate even with just iron sights at 50 yards. Waiting for a new scope for it.
Noveske Afghan
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeAfghan023.jpg
SkiDevil
P.S. There is a member here from down South with thousands of rounds through his. Maybe he will chime in. I believe his handle is Ratfink.
I don't have alot of trigger time with it yet. But I like mine. Very accurate even with just iron sights at 50 yards. Waiting for a new scope for it.
Noveske Afghan
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeAfghan023.jpg
SkiDevil
P.S. There is a member here from down South with thousands of rounds through his. Maybe he will chime in. I believe his handle is Ratfink.
Damn, I'm liking the looks of that.
The_Hammer_Man
11-02-10, 19:38
Nice topic for thought....my personal def. would be:
Match grade 14.5" SS w. medium contour, mid length gas in a 1/7th with a Wylde chamber.
1-4x optic like a baby nxs w. the compact mil dot.
12" FF rail
Match trigger and a Atlas or harris bipod
I honestly believe the precision based 14.5" has an equal place in the AR world along with the Recce 16" and the SPR 18"....its my next project:)
Agree totally with your last sentence there. I have three carbines built to that specification list .
All WOA barrels,all medium profile.
one carbine length gasser at 13.7 (permed PWS FSC Custom to bring up to 16.2")
14.5" (permed PWS FSC556)midlength gas
16" midlength w/ pws556 as well.
All three carbines (with 1-4 optics) turn in nearly identical groups that average .75moa to 1moa. consistently.
The differences are negligable at 200 yrds and under. As you get out past 250 is when the differences start to be noticeable.
Amen brother...Less is certainly more given like you say, the longer barrel's velocity is nullified at 200-300yds and in.
Keeping the match grade SS barrel constant or as close as possible is critical to realizing that the SPR is perhaps a dinosaur in this particular family tree much like the SDMR became extinct awhile back. So many people do not even consider running short match grade barrels and for what reasons I do not know as they certainly can be amazing performers and if worked into the right overall precision config. w. trigger/optics/etc., they can easily bring in sub moa groups all day long given load and shooter are present.
I have heard that the Noveske 12.5 crusader is the most accurate barrel in the Noveske lineup but cannot speak to the truth of that but have heard it numerous times.
Who is shooting an Afghan or Recon Scout? How would you best describe their place in the AR pantheon?
IMHO a 16" (I prefer mid length) match type barrel with 12" rail and some type of 1-4X optic it that do it all carbine.
I just picked up a BCM with USMC SAM-R chamber. It's a good compromise for a chamber/barrel used in a good compromise carbine. I should do it all well while specializing in no thing.
Any acurate AR requires some type of match trigger. Pick a stock that works for you and get some type of quick detatch bipod.
I just finished a Noveske Afghan build with Harris bipod on a Larue mount, 1-4 baby NXS in a Larue and a Sully stock. Sighted her in on Sunday and shot one group at 100 yds. Soft shooting and fairly light for having all that gear hanging off of it. I love 14.5" bbls. My group was 1.5" with 9 rds (10th was a bad flyer) and that's the 1st time I've ever shot for pure accuracy in my life.
When I get my fundamentals down better, I know this thing will be scary accurate, especially with more magnification.
Nice topic for thought....
I honestly believe the precision based 14.5" has an equal place in the AR world along with the Recce 16" and the SPR 18"
Agreed!
I'm running a 14.5" with a MI T12 free float rail, SOPMOD stock, Harris bipod, and soon-to-be-here Burris Tac30 1-4x24 IR scope. Definitely has its place for precision shooting from 300 yards and below.
Now, I've been curious....what do you call an accurized 14.5" barreled precision AR? Afghan...tied to Noveske parts only? M4...not quite? Scout...haven't heard that term used much?
The_Hammer_Man
11-02-10, 21:04
I've been finding that my "street legal sbr" builds can and do compete well with their "bigger brothers" with longer barrels.
The 13.7 upper I mentioned previously is an amazing shooter out to about 275 yrds with good quality ammunition. (I get my best results with 77gr SMK in LC brass. I also get decent,1moa, results with 68gr Winchester w/ the hornady bullet.)
It's the goto wep of choice for HD.
IF I had to choose a barrel length for an all purpose SHTF wep it would have to be my WOA 16" (1:8,wylde chambered) pseudo-recce that I built. I might change it to a 1:7 eventually but I'm pretty happy with this barrel.
I just finished a Noveske Afghan build with Harris bipod on a Larue mount, 1-4 baby NXS in a Larue and a Sully stock. Sighted her in on Sunday and shot one group at 100 yds. Soft shooting and fairly light for having all that gear hanging off of it. I love 14.5" bbls. My group was 1.5" with 9 rds (10th was a bad flyer) and that's the 1st time I've ever shot for pure accuracy in my life.
When I get my fundamentals down better, I know this thing will be scary accurate, especially with more magnification.
Hey friend-o.....this thread called to you and that new badass afghan of yours in your sleep;)
I most def. lived vicariously through NewYork's superb 14.5" afghan build...over the course of the last 6 months or so me and New York conversed on each major component that went into it and without question its my personal benchmark for an upcoming 14.5" SS....whenever the AR Gods will allow it obviously:)
Your baby nxs will make you a far better shot the longer you stay with it in the long run. I do agree that perhaps down the road you might be better served w. the 2.5-10 offerings. The baby nxs just matches up perfectly on paper with a tack driving 14.5".
wild_wild_wes
11-02-10, 21:56
I honestly believe the precision based 14.5" has an equal place in the AR world along with the Recce 16" and the SPR 18"....its my next project:)
Hmm...My thinking is either you have a Recce, -or- an SPR and an Afghan.
My reasononing is thus: the Recce is a "do-it-all" Precision rifle, but it is also a compromise. The SPR is configured for maximum range, but you pay a penalty in length and weight. The Afghan cures these drawbacks, at the expense of extreme (+400m) range. So the deciding factor is Optics....IMO a 1-4X is best suited to the Afghan, and a 3-10X for the SPR. The Recce works well with both of those optics, but then you would have to switch them out.
I have an SPR, so am strongly leaning to building an Afghan instead of a Recce.
Thank you Trident. I might have dumped the whole thing without you, and bought a 3rd carbine with an Aimpoint instead. I'd suggest the Afghan in a second. Its a great set up.
Hmm...My thinking is either you have a Recce, -or- an SPR and an Afghan.
My reasononing is thus: the Recce is a "do-it-all" Precision rifle, but it is also a compromise. The SPR is configured for maximum range, but you pay a penalty in length and weight. The Afghan cures these drawbacks, at the expense of extreme (+400m) range. So the deciding factor is Optics....IMO a 1-4X is best suited to the Afghan, and a 3-10X for the SPR. The Recce works well with both of those optics, but then you would have to switch them out.
I have an SPR, so am strongly leaning to building an Afghan instead of a Recce.
You and I both know you ultimately will have a specimen of all three....its semantics in which you choose to order the three:D
Your above reply kinda non directly makes the case for the Recce being the most versatile if not the most practical. At the end of the day the SPR, Recce and Afghan only comprise of three actual guns and we all know that gun safes hold way more than three rifles so who is counting...get busy building, that is my plan at least:)
The_Hammer_Man
11-03-10, 06:58
About optics choices...
Forgot to mention that I have an IOR Valdad 1.5-8 scope that lives in the 13.7's drop bag for those longer than average shots. It's mounted on a LaRue QD riser so it's usually within 1/4 moa of the original zero.
Yes, it's a bit heavier but it's some really nice glass!
wild_wild_wes
11-03-10, 21:30
IMHO a 16" (I prefer mid length) match type barrel with 12" rail and some type of 1-4X optic it that do it all carbine. I just picked up a BCM with USMC SAM-R chamber. It's a good compromise for a chamber/barrel used in a good compromise carbine. I should do it all well while specializing in no thing.
Ahh....I think the critical distinction here is that you specify a "do it all carbine", while in fact the Recce is a "do it all precision carbine". Just my opinion here, but I think a "do it all" AR should have a lightweight or midweight barrel. I have a 16" N4 on the way which will be tested to see if it can fulfill this role for me; this is why I am unsure that a Recce has a place in my collection.
Any acurate AR requires some type of match trigger.
true dat! I'm gonna use the SSA.
wild_wild_wes
11-03-10, 21:52
Now, I've been curious....what do you call an accurized 14.5" barreled precision AR? Afghan...tied to Noveske parts only? M4...not quite? Scout...haven't heard that term used much?
My understanding is that guys in the operational areas wanted a compact precision rifle, because they are continually getting into and out of vehicles; the SPR was considered to be too long, but I'm not sure if they had access to Recces. Noveske created the "Afghan" to answer that need. "Recon Scout" barrels were built to the same basic specs by WOA- that is just what they called their model.
If my facts are wrong someone please correct me.
Or is it the Recce that is the requisite in the collection.
Reading about the genesis of the Recce and the development of the SPR, it is clear that the Recce was the more desirable for the operators who first desired the precision M4.
Didn't Kyle Defoor just post about this on here somewhere?
The original whatever you want to call them- Recces, SPRs, MK 12s (we usually just say "sniper M4") had a 16" barrel, Leupold 2.5-10 and a PRI foregrip. They were first used operationally in '93 in Somalia by our guys that were attached to our Southern brethren.
It went to 18" quite frankly because the big Army got involved. Most of us that have a lot of time on one (myself included) think that 16" is better for a number of reasons;
1. 2" does make a difference especially with a can.
2. weight (it's not pounds at this stage it's ounces) and remember that balance has a factor here too.
3. I've shot both together on the same range at the same time. I don't really care what charts and scientists say, me and mine can hit just as good with 16" as 18".
Now that I have a very nice BCM 18" SPR and a very nice BCM 14.5" I really appreciate the Recce. The 16" "Sniper M4" is a sweet spot in the AR15 line up. Like Kyle says there is a reason the SEALs went with the 16". In case there are some on here reading the thread that don't know, Kyle Defoor is a former SEAL Team 8 and DevGru sniper.
While for me now it is about rounding out a collection of weapons, I can certainly see that the 16" Recce, operationally would be the preferrable weapon.
Cameron
wild_wild_wes
11-03-10, 22:19
That's all true, but the Afghan was not factored in to that discussion....I'd like to hear what Kyle has to say!
This is easily my favorite and most pursued aspect of the entire firearms realm:p I never get tire of daydreaming and conversing about these precision based 14.5-18" guns and the particular components that make them up.
The recce proved to be the gun to beat in my personal evaluation by a far stretch but the sex appeal and beauty of the 18" SPR's will ensure that my safe always has at least one in it.
One of my favorite aspects about these couple of concept guns is that by in large they are very precise instruments thus when going to the range each time its easy to measure gains and losses as you refine these builds with the various ways one can go about doing so. This is not the case on a traditional 1x style ARs w. CL barrels and G.I. triggers where precision is not stressed and things like reliability are the only aspects easily evaluated from one range visit to the next.
wild_wild_wes
11-06-10, 11:48
You and I both know you ultimately will have a specimen of all three....its semantics in which you choose to order the three:D
If I were a rich man maybe! After I get my two 5.56 Precision ARs complete, it's on to the same thing in AR10 version....so, funds for three precision 5.56s are lacking.
Belmont31R
11-06-10, 17:25
Should have something pretty sweet for this thread soon....:p
wild_wild_wes
11-06-10, 18:08
I'm really on the fence about this. I was planning on a Recce next and bought the Noveske Recon barrel, but the Afghan sounds intriguing too....Not sure if I need a Recce and an SPR both....I have the Nightforce 1-4X, and it might be a better fit for the Afghan. But if I do that I have to sell the Recce barrel to get funds for the Afghan. Damn.
I'm really on the fence about this. I was planning on a Recce next and bought the Noveske Recon barrel, but the Afghan sounds intriguing too....Not sure if I need a Recce and an SPR both....I have the Nightforce 1-4X, and it might be a better fit for the Afghan. But if I do that I have to sell the Recce barrel to get funds for the Afghan. Damn.
Do the Afghan route.
Recon/Reece and the SPR are so close in similarities/roles. After it's all said and done, you are just going to end up with two nearly similar rifles while spending all that dough.
I've gone those routes before...from a Recon to a SPR to a Precision 24 incher, and now, I'm happy with my Scout-type AR.
I understand the idea of the Afghan, but I think relationship between barrel length and optic is a kind of blurry line. You can put a 10 power optic on a 10.5" AR but the barrel limits the optic.
A 14.5" with a 1-4 would work well, but personally I think the red dot works for the 14.5" the low power variable 1-5 power makes sense for the 16" Recce and the 3-10 makes sense for the 18" SPR or even 20" SDM.
While I have an AimPoint on my BCM 14.5" I am going to try it for groups with the 1.5-5 optic from my Recce to see how the standard chrome lined BCM barrel is.
Just thinking about it now, my 10.5" with a red dot, my 14.5" with a red dot with a 3 power flip out magnifier, 16" with the 1.5-5, and 18" with a 3-10 makes the most sense to me.
Shit, now I need a magnifier...
Cameron
I understand the idea of the Afghan, but I think relationship between barrel length and optic is a kind of blurry line. You can put a 10 power optic on a 10.5" AR but the barrel limits the optic.
A 14.5" with a 1-4 would work well, but personally I think the red dot works for the 14.5" the low power variable 1-5 power makes sense for the 16" Recce and the 3-10 makes sense for the 18" SPR or even 20" SDM.
While I have an AimPoint on my BCM 14.5" I am going to try it for groups with the 1.5-5 optic from my Recce to see how the standard chrome lined BCM barrel is.
Agree. There should be a relationship between the chosen optic and capability of barrel used, whatever it is defined by the user/owner.
I just did both...1-4x24 along with a PA red dot... ;)
http://healthbydon.com/ar15burris1.jpg
Belmont31R
11-06-10, 19:22
Do the Afghan route.
Recon/Reece and the SPR are so close in similarities/roles. After it's all said and done, you are just going to end up with two nearly similar rifles while spending all that dough.
I've gone those routes before...from a Recon to a SPR to a Precision 24 incher, and now, I'm happy with my Scout-type AR.
It depends on the setup. In the past Ive had both a Mk12 setup and a recce style gun. One had a 3-12x50 optic and the other a 1.1-4X. The 16" had a VFG, CTR stock, ect. The SPR had a different stock, bipod, ect. Vastly different weight, feel, uses, ect.
The "scout" Im building now will have a 14.5" Noveske Afghan barrel, DD RIS II, and Im torn about optics. Im actually waiting on the 1-8 Short Dot to come out to go on my EMC but it keeps getting pushed back resulting in a shortage of optics for the guns I have. Id just get another 1.1-4X SD but I really want the reticle options the 1-8 will have for my EMC.
Anyways I think the scout and recce are much closer in application than an 18" or 20" SPR is to a Recce.
wild_wild_wes
11-06-10, 19:45
Just thinking about it now, my 10.5" with a red dot, my 14.5" with a red dot with a 3 power flip out magnifier, 16" with the 1.5-5, and 18" with a 3-10 makes the most sense to me.
Shit, now I need a magnifier...
Cameron
SBRs are not allowed in CA, or I'd have one. Your line-up sounds good; I have much the same, but in place of your 16" with low-power variable (Recce?) in mine I have a new 16" N4 on the way which will have an ACOG.
As for the Magnifier....do yourself a favor and buy a Mako clone off eBay. The thought of a $500 monocle drives me into a rage....
wild_wild_wes
11-06-10, 19:46
http://healthbydon.com/ar15burris1.jpg
Beautiful rifle, OD!
Beautiful rifle, OD!
Thanks Wes, my fellow Kalifornian. :)
One more for ya to stay on topic...
http://healthbydon.com/ar15burris3.jpg
wild_wild_wes
11-06-10, 22:14
Dammit OD, I'm in :D
I just hope I don't lose too much on the Recon barrel when I put it on the EE....
Dammit OD, I'm in :D
I just hope I don't lose too much on the Recon barrel when I put it on the EE....
You won't. It's new and a choice brand and barrel.
Are you on calguns.net? If not, join and throw it on there. It'll sell fast over there.
my 14.5 Afghan
http://fototime.com/7B2F32EDAEBA571/standard.jpg
my 16"lija/nordic
http://fototime.com/FB5673ED90E8D6D/standard.jpg
wild_wild_wes
11-08-10, 20:36
More Afghan pr0n, please
^yeah what he said, more Afghan porn please.
Nice topic for thought....my personal def. would be:
Match grade 14.5" SS w. medium contour, mid length gas in a 1/7th with a Wylde chamber.
1-4x optic like a baby nxs w. the compact mil dot.
12" FF rail
Match trigger and a Atlas or harris bipod
I honestly believe the precision based 14.5" has an equal place in the AR world along with the Recce 16" and the SPR 18"....its my next project:)
interesting. what's a 14.5" precision rig going to do that a 16" won't?
I hate to play Devil's advocate against my personal favorite specimen being the Recce, however I will indulge you.
The Afghan is lighter. Period. It gives up a small irrelevant bit of difference in velocity to the Recce and the SPR, yet maintains the same accuracy on paper and does this in a more portable and lighter package. This is obviously with the same match grade SS barrel being held constant...only chopped for the various specimens.
Ballistic & weight arguments aside, which the differences between an Afgan and Recon are pretty minimal, I don't think the 1.5" difference is worth the hassle of dealing with a pinned & welded muzzle device.
I've been through many parts trying to find my ideal setup, and I would hate being married to a muzzle device.
That was pretty much the biggest factor that lead me to pick the 16" Recon over the 14.5" Afgan. If I decide to switch from my Surefire FH to a Battlecomp...no problem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/DSC02692.jpg
That is why you need a registered SBR lower:)
At this point, if I was going to pay for a $200 tax stamp, I'd rather get a Surefire can to match the Surefire flash hider.
But, if I were to SBR my lower, I'd rather have a 10" if I was buying another barrel.
Sorry to go off topic, but I've been fighting with a question for the last 3 days, and this is the perfect audience to field it! (For the record, I've spent my entire Sunday on Google trying to get a better perspective, it's only now-at 7pm-that I found this thread)
For the last 3 months I've been piecing together my rifle, carefully selecting the components along the way. The goals of this rifle are 1) home defense, 2) training/3-gun competition, 3) SHTF rifle. While I have no intention of making this a feather/ultra-lightweight rifle, I do believe in the oz=lbs/lbs=pain mantra. I'm also a big believer of having a rifle that is properly balanced.
As I live in Hawaii, there really aren't too many options out there for me to look at in order to decide. No one that I know in the local competitive group even owns a 14.5", much less a lightweight version. You should see the sideways looks that I get when I tell them that I'm building a rifle with a 14.5" midlength barrel. :rolleyes:
Anywho, I finally decided on a Noveske Afghan barrel, mainly because of it's reputation and because my friend/local shop owner cut me a pretty good deal. When I mentioned that it felt a bit heavy, he said that I could send it to ADCO for fluting/dimpling. I emailed Steve at ADCO to see how much weight it would save (ETA: I just emailed him today, so I expect a response within a couple days). Now my question: is getting this work done considered heresy? I've heard that it can adversely affect accuracy. Am I just being a mamby pamby jackwagon?
Again, sorry for the OT and the novel...I'm really hoping you fine connoisseurs of short-barreled precision can help me with this decision. As a trade, I'll be sure to post up my pr0n once the rifle is finished (1-3 weeks, depending on what I decide).
- Alex
I would honestly refrain from radically altering a Noveske Afghan barrel's profile. I think a barrel intended to be a high volume shooter like any typical CL AR barrel is perfectly ok to alter it's overall diameter or otherwise mess with its factory contouring. These barrels are usually maintained to a 2-3moa accuracy standard and thereby it will take a much more drastic adverse effect in the barrel's accuracy for the shooter to notice as opposed to an Afghan which is expected to shoot 1moa or less given shooter and load are present.
You will hear so many spoof sciences applied to this topic that I am not sure any definitive conclusion can be reached and I am inclined that its a case by case basis. When a barrel leaves a reputable mfg. like Noveske it has been tested "as is", and by extension that particular barrel has a certain barrel harmonics in tow with it. Barrel harmonics can easily be influenced by a number of different factors which can adversely effect the harmonics and thereby reduce it's accuracy. One would have to assume that barrel harmonics will certainly be in play when re profiling a barrel's original contour.
The_Hammer_Man
12-20-10, 07:14
No, it's not heresy to want to lighten or recontour/dimple a barrel.. even a Noveske.......
BUT!
It's not nescessary and previously stated,in the above post, it's not recommended. Noveske sells some of the best barrels on the market. If your going to "customize" a barrel, do it from the get go... not after the fact.
I get asked by clients all the time.. "Can you do this or that to my barrel and will it be better?". The answer is usually.. no. Whenever I've done something like this to a barrel in the past I've had "iffy" results at best. It's usually better to do all forms of contouring and lightening done before the barrel is hardened. Some machinists prefer to work with hardened some with annealed. Both methods have their "charms" and their downside.
If this is what you REALLY want.. then contact a custom barrel maker and have them make you one to your specifications.
GermanSynergy
12-20-10, 13:16
I had a Noveske Afghan in 2007, and while superbly accurate, it was a monster to carry around. If you're shooting from a static position, it's great. If lugging it around or taking a 5 day carbine class with it, the Afghan quickly loses it's appeal. :D
I didn't realize a Noveske Afghan, (that's the 14.5" right?) was so heavy. What was it a monster heavy barrel profile under the rail?
Cameron
wild_wild_wes
12-20-10, 21:08
I've had both barrels and they look like the same diameter to me. So one wonders why Recces with Noveske barrels are never refered to as "monsters" to haul around.
I've had both barrels and they look like the same diameter to me. So one wonders why Recces with Noveske barrels are never refered to as "monsters" to haul around.
Yeah, I have a BCM standard barrel 14.5" mid length and it feels like a lightweight to me even with a 12" rail. I know that weight is relative mostly to the shooter, but I wouldn't call a 14.5" medium contour barrel a heavy carbine. I suppose a munchkin might find them heavy, but even my diminutive 5'4" bride has no trouble with a 16" Recce with a long rail.
Cameron
Yeah, I have a BCM standard barrel 14.5" mid length and it feels like a lightweight to me even with a 12" rail. I know that weight is relative mostly to the shooter, but I wouldn't call a 14.5" medium contour barrel a heavy carbine. I suppose a munchkin might find them heavy, but even my diminutive 5'4" bride has no trouble with a 16" Recce with a long rail.
Cameron
Although I can't seem to find the exact weight spec on the BCM 14.5" standard, a little bit of extrapolation tells me that your BCM is about 6-8 oz lighter than the Noveske Afghan...a 1/2 lbs is fairly significant when it comes to handling and balance with a 14.5" barrel. And as someone who is used to carrying a Mk18 or MP5 at work, the difference will be especially noticeable (no SBR option for us over here).
And while I have no doubt that your wife is able to throw around the Recce, I would defer to German above and ask if she's carried it around for a day+ or done a 5-day carbine class with it? The weight certainly does add up.
As an aside, I'm still waiting to hear back from Noveske to get their take on things. I'm pretty sure I know what they're going to say, but if, by chance, they DO say that things should be OK with the dimpling, then I'll be sending it off to Marvin for his KAC-esque work.
- Alex
Top to bottom: Athos, Porthos and Aramis.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ylcm650e15.jpg
Athos: SAM-Rish with 20” Noveske HBAR and Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32.
Porthos: Noveske 16” Recon with Short Dot LE 1.1-4X24
Aramis: Noveske 14.5” Afghan with Nightforce NXS 1-4X24
....
wild_wild_wes
12-21-10, 21:29
I'm still waiting to hear back from Noveske to get their take on things.
Noveske put a lot of research into getting exactly the needed thickness on his barrels; in the case of his stainless ones he didn't just use a standard one- the profile on his barrels is what he deems necessary for accuracy and durability, for the minimum weight. They are for use on Precision rifles, so taking them on a Tactical carbine course might be a mis-use; for that application he designed the N4 barrel.
wild_wild_wes
12-21-10, 21:29
Top to bottom: Athos, Porthos and Aramis.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ylcm650e15.jpg
Athos: SAM-Rish with 20” Noveske HBAR and Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32.
Porthos: Noveske 16” Recon with Short Dot LE 1.1-4X24
Aramis: Noveske 14.5” Afghan with Nightforce NXS 1-4X24
....
Nice! Do you have weights for these?
Noveske put a lot of research into getting exactly the needed thickness on his barrels; in the case of his stainless ones he didn't just use a standard one- the profile on his barrels is what he deems necessary for accuracy and durability, for the minimum weight. They are for use on Precision rifles, so taking them on a Tactical carbine course might be a mis-use; for that application he designed the N4 barrel.
Shit, you make a good point. Tough to argue with that.
I guess now I just need to find someone locally who can pin my SureFire flash hider...
- Alex
I guess now I just need to find someone locally who can pin my SureFire flash hider...
Thats the problem with the Afgan...and 14.5" barrels in general.
IIRC, ADCO said on their site that they wanted extra to drill/pin a Surefire flash hider, due to the material it is constructed with. You may want to look into this and make sure whoever says they are going to do it is aware so they don't tank your barrel or flashhider.
Are you planning on getting a suppressor?
Originally posted by Molon:
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ylcm650e15.jpg
Nice! Do you have weights for these?
14.5": 8 pounds, 14 ounces.
16": 9 pounds, 11 ounces.
20": 10 pounds, 13 ounces.
....
Athos: SAM-Rish with 20” Noveske HBAR and Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32.
Porthos: Noveske 16” Recon with Short Dot LE 1.1-4X24
Aramis: Noveske 14.5” Afghan with Nightforce NXS 1-4X24
Awesome names. How do you like the Nightforce 1-4 compared to the Short Dot?
-B
Just a quick update, my Afghan barrel is on the way to Noveske to be fluted (and SF FH installed). Over the weekend, I got a response back from them that said, in part, "[Fluting] keeps most of your original accuracy as long as you don't go to deep and add stress to the alloy in the bore. Turning down will reduce rigidity allot and so will dimpling and that 99% of the time equals much less accuracy. I would like for us to flute it for ya that way it gets done right and the gun gets put back together properly for ya."
I am not posting this to start a pissing contest about fluting vs. dimpling vs. recontouring or Noveske vs. ADCO vs. Marvin. Also, I hope no one takes this post as a slight against them; I greatly appreciate everyone's comments and advice. However, I feel that it makes sense to listen to a manufacturer's recommendation about their barrel. :)
I should have the barrel back in about 3 weeks (average turn around is supposed to be 1-2 weeks, but I'm estimating longer due to the New Year), once it's here I'll get the rifle finished up and post some pictures.
- Alex
14.5": 8 pounds, 14 ounces.
16": 9 pounds, 11 ounces.
20": 10 pounds, 13 ounces.
....
Shouldn't 'Porthos' be the heaviest?
I have and use a Afghan 14.5 as my work rifle and it is fantastic as for all my friends that say it is a little heavy i tell them to hit the gym all the gear i carried in the service a 9lb rifle isnt going to be the deal breaker just run a good 2pt sling and it rests on my just fine with no problems or pain all day long
Afghan 14.5 On Full VIS upper W/ Switchblock
AAC Blackout
trijicon TA31RCO-M150CP
Geissele SSA
And various other additions that dont mean anything
had a short dot on it but went back to a acog like i had in the service i was way more comfortable with it
i did my research with it as well and it seemed like the best rifle i could buy i found with the choice of the afghan or the knights sr15 and ive got close to 8000 rounds through my afghan with no problems
The biggest thing on the Noveske rifles the add weight are the rails they use IMO. The barrel nuts are tanks and the rails have more contact with the barrel nuts than almost any other manufacturer out there. Noveske designed these things to be solid battle rifles and it shows. Of course in the case of the Afghans and other SS barreled N rifles, the barrels themselves are med. contour barrels, which are also not the lightest. Again, by design.
I had a Noveske Afghan in 2007, and while superbly accurate, it was a monster to carry around. If you're shooting from a static position, it's great. If lugging it around or taking a 5 day carbine class with it, the Afghan quickly loses it's appeal. :D
I have an Afghan VIS and it is a monster is right. Holy cow...I want a lighter rifle for classes, moving around/mobility during drills. Its not a huge difference but it does wear on you after 3 days of training. I was on the verge os selling it because I wanted to switch to a lighter weight SS barreled stick. I was thinking about a LaRue PredatAR as its replacement. I dont feel like waiting for it tho. Not lookin to hijack, looking to add some more knowledgeable relevent info to the current discussion. Re-Contour to lighten it up? Adco, Nefarious Arms are two highly reputable shops that come to mind to handle it. Yay's and Nay's? I would hate to have to sell it to lighten up. If I was to sell and I decided to switch barrel material...I thinking CHF with gasp....a SCAR 16 :D
theblackknight
12-10-12, 22:29
Now that I'm a free man, I want to take my rifle from m4 spec to something I can use for 2 gun(when it takes off,I hate shotguns)3 gun, and hunting. Do I really need to go 18in stainless with a rifle gas to be competitive and bang small steel? I grew up shooting small bore and my chops arnt that bad.
vicious_cb
12-10-12, 23:02
I have an Afghan VIS and it is a monster is right. Holy cow...I want a lighter rifle for classes, moving around/mobility during drills. Its not a huge difference but it does wear on you after 3 days of training. I was on the verge os selling it because I wanted to switch to a lighter weight SS barreled stick. I was thinking about a LaRue PredatAR as its replacement. I dont feel like waiting for it tho. Not lookin to hijack, looking to add some more knowledgeable relevent info to the current discussion. Re-Contour to lighten it up? Adco, Nefarious Arms are two highly reputable shops that come to mind to handle it. Yay's and Nay's? I would hate to have to sell it to lighten up. If I was to sell and I decided to switch barrel material...I thinking CHF with gasp....a SCAR 16 :D
FYI, its not the barrel thats making it heavy. Im guessing you're using a 12" vis, thats a 1.2lb rail you got on there.
I shoot 2 Noveske Afghan's. 1 a N4 with the monolithic reciever and stainless steel barrel. The other an N4 with the MUIR receiver and chromed barrel. Both shoot well under 1 MOA @ 100 yards with the stainless steel barrel shooting slightly smaller groups. Both have NF 2.5-10X32 scopes
This thread got brought back up so i will post an updated comment that the new Afghans with the NSR rail is the tit's.
Compared to the old rail or VIS which was very tough but pretty heavy combined with the stainless barrel. It wasn't just that the barrel was heavy, it's that the barrel is heavier and it had a beast of a rail which combined out front like that might have made it front heavy.
The NSR really helps balance the carbine out IMHO. I love the way it feels.
I have the exact copy of the same 14.5 carbine but with the chrome lined and the weight difference is barely noticeable to me at all.
wild_wild_wes
12-15-12, 10:55
I have three carbines...All WOA barrels, all medium profile...13.7"...14.5"...16"...All three carbines (with 1-4 optics) turn in nearly identical groups that average .75moa to 1moa. consistently....The differences are negligable at 200 yrds and under. As you get out past 250 is when the differences start to be noticeable.
The interesting thing about the Afghan then is the balance between range & accuracy, and compactness. Is a dedicated precision rifle useful mainly at ranges <300m desirable enough, when for the penalty of a few inches increased length, you have a larger usable range?
I've carried a Recon for work as a precision rifleman. I bought it in early 2008. The first thing I did when I started carrying it was to switch the heavy assed rail with a Troy Extreme rail. Even with a 2.5-10 it's now portable. I went to it because I got tired of lugging around a 14lb. model 700.
When I decided to build an Afghan I ordered a Noveske fluted Afghan and it is now my jack of all carbine. With a Trijicon TR24G is very manageable and with an Aimpiont it's like a standard barreled carbine even though it wears a Centurion 12" rail. As far as accuracy goes it holds it's own till the barrel heats up. I don't feel it's an issue with any type of rifles set up for accuracy from a LEO perspective. I'm thinking of putting my NF 2.5-10 on it to really see what it can do. Both of the above rifles have SSA-E's installed.
wild_wild_wes
12-26-12, 21:45
Since I'm now building a 16" AR10, I'm seriously considering converting my SPR to Afghan configuration. If it fits the bill of a very compact precision rifle out to 400 yards (keeping in mind the "rule of 4"), I think it would fill a useful niche. Opinions?
Since I'm now building a 16" AR10, I'm seriously considering converting my SPR to Afghan configuration. If it fits the bill of a very compact precision rifle out to 400 yards (keeping in mind the "rule of 4"), I think it would fill a useful niche. Opinions?
It all depends on what "precision" role you're trying to fill. 400yds is very doable with a 14.5" barrel. I guess it would depend if you're going to shoot 50-200yds on a regular basis and occasionally out to 400... or if you're planning on shooting 400yds consistently.
As with all barrels, you lose velocity with decreased barrel length. Less velocity means you have a more drop over a set distance. So again, if 400yds is your max, then a 14.5" is fine. If you want to shoot 400yds consistently and occasionally further, I'd look at the 16" barrels.
wild_wild_wes
04-07-13, 18:42
At long last, I can join the discussion! Well not really, because I just got it back from Rainiers and haven't taken it to the range yet.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/003_zpsc76627e9.jpg
ACOG is just temporary until I choose an optic; I'm thinking a 1-6X would be a good fit for this rifle.
At 7 lbs. 7 oz., t is not as heavy as I had feared it would be.
That VLTOR receiver is hotness. And nice execution on the Bush lower.
I understand the idea of the Afghan, but I think relationship between barrel length and optic is a kind of blurry line. You can put a 10 power optic on a 10.5" AR but the barrel limits the optic.
A 14.5" with a 1-4 would work well, but personally I think the red dot works for the 14.5" the low power variable 1-5 power makes sense for the 16" Recce and the 3-10 makes sense for the 18" SPR or even 20" SDM.
While I have an AimPoint on my BCM 14.5" I am going to try it for groups with the 1.5-5 optic from my Recce to see how the standard chrome lined BCM barrel is.
Just thinking about it now, my 10.5" with a red dot, my 14.5" with a red dot with a 3 power flip out magnifier, 16" with the 1.5-5, and 18" with a 3-10 makes the most sense to me.
Shit, now I need a magnifier...
Cameron
Completely agree Cameron. I really like the versatility of (essentially) the 1-3x that the RDS + magnifier offers. I'll likely have a 1-4x or 1-6x for this at some point though.
14.5 Noveske middy barrel, Geissele trigger, Surefire can, and 2moa Aimpoint w/ 3x. Being a new father had significantly limited my range time but I have high hopes in the accuracy dept. Hope to take some time soon with handloads and SWA 77gr to see how it shakes out.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/SOPMOD/952966FE-5509-4C06-BF11-A00316C8C388-362-0000002111A83A98_zpse1895d6c.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/SOPMOD/IMG_8508_zps6ecd7bb9.jpg
I guess I'm going to have to break down and get a pic of my Noveske since I departed from the BCM a while back.
wild_wild_wes
04-07-13, 20:31
Completely agree Cameron. I really like the versatility of (essentially) the 1-3x that the RDS + magnifier offers. I'll likely have a 1-4x or 1-6x for this at some point though.
14.5 Noveske middy barrel, Geissele trigger, Surefire can, and 2moa Aimpoint w/ 3x. Being a new father had significantly limited my range time but I have high hopes in the accuracy dept. Hope to take some time soon with handloads and SWA 77gr to see how it shakes out.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/SOPMOD/952966FE-5509-4C06-BF11-A00316C8C388-362-0000002111A83A98_zpse1895d6c.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/SOPMOD/IMG_8508_zps6ecd7bb9.jpg
I think a 1-4 or 1-6 would be the best choise for a precision 14.5".
I think using an RDS, even with a magnifier, would be selling it short.
I think a 1-4 or 1-6 would be the best choise for a precision 14.5".
I think using an RDS, even with a magnifier, would be selling it short.
True if dedicated for purpose, I definitely agree. I'd ultimately like to have both so I can push it in either direction with an optic change.
I built a 14.5" CHF LW rifle that utilizes every bit of 10x on a NXS compact.
Imho, a 1-4/6x optic is selling the Afghan concept well short of it's full potential.
Daniel Defense's 14.5" CHF LW 5.56 Mid @ 731yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_cIuMw0_R0)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07845-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/yoyo.jpg
I built a 14.5" CHF LW rifle that utilizes every bit of 10x on a NXS compact.
Imho, a 1-4/6x optic is selling the Afghan concept well short of it's full potential.
Daniel Defense's 14.5" CHF LW 5.56 Mid @ 731yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_cIuMw0_R0)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07845-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/yoyo.jpg
Yesterday at the range I was shooting my 14.5" CHF at 500 yds with a TA33 and I REALLY wished I brought something with more than 3x magnification. So I agree.
wild_wild_wes
04-07-13, 20:56
I built a 14.5" CHF LW rifle that utilizes every bit of 10x on a NXS compact.
Imho, a 1-4/6x optic is selling the Afghan concept well short of it's full potential.
You're probably right, on the high end of magnification, but on the low end I'd like 1x. That would give you a rifle capable of shooting past 500 yards, but capable too under 50 yards.
I built a 14.5" CHF LW rifle that utilizes every bit of 10x on a NXS compact.
Imho, a 1-4/6x optic is selling the Afghan concept well short of it's full potential.
Daniel Defense's 14.5" CHF LW 5.56 Mid @ 731yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_cIuMw0_R0)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07845-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/yoyo.jpg
So I should've kept the NF 2.5-10x32? Damn :suicide2:
Conceptually speaking, it's my belief that the Afghan concept comes from the same genus that spawned the SPR program rifles, or better known as the Recce, and Mk12 variant rifles.
So personally I believe the Afghan to be a specialized tool more than a jack of all trades rifle. It's just a more portable version of the Recce, and SPR rifles.
The glass, trigger, rail, and bipod define a Afghan, Recce, or SPR rifle more than their actual barrel/lengths do imho.
Same rifle by in large....yet one is capable of engaging torso sized targets up to roughly 800yds, while the other one is realistically 400-500yds less capable of engaging that same sized target.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07894.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07500-1.jpg
richiecotite
04-08-13, 14:19
I know the basic setup/specs of an SPR/MK12, same with the recce. Is the afghan the same as recce with a 14.5 barrel instead of a 16" ?
I know the basic setup/specs of an SPR/MK12, same with the recce. Is the afghan the same as recce with a 14.5 barrel instead of a 16" ?
If you're just talking barrel lengths:
Afghan = 14.5"
RECCE/Recon = 16"
SPR = 18"
Conceptually:
I personally prefer a 16" SS for a true precision gun if my purpose is to get out to 600. 2.5-10x is a great mag range for this IMO. I don't know where I would ever use an 18" in 5.56. I think Trident has proven that a 16" can do just as much as an 18", while giving more mobility.
But if the purpose is to hit torso sized targets out to 400, then I would take the 14.5" CL all day long given the barrel manufacturer is of known quality and has a reputation for accuracy. I agree with Munch that an Aimpoint with 3x is more versatile...for the simple fact that the 14.5" is a length that is easily used indoors around corners and doorways (in fact, 14.5" is the max length that is comfortable for me). In this role, I would want the non paralax RD where I can get into non-standard positions and still get a good sight picture, quickly. When you step out of that zone, attach/flip the 3x, and you've just extended your range out to the purpose of the rifle.
Realistically:
These can all do the same things as the other in terms of barrel length, but the optic placed on it will determine which side of the spectrum the setup will be best suited for. I'm really liking the 2.5-10x with offset optic (irons or MRDS) idea.
wild_wild_wes
07-14-13, 16:31
These can all do the same things as the other in terms of barrel length, but the optic placed on it will determine which side of the spectrum the setup will be best suited for. I'm really liking the 2.5-10x with offset optic (irons or MRDS) idea.
That's what I ended up going with:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/Afghan1_zps2452d9ef.jpg
I think the 2.5x10 will wring every bit of capability out of the rifle. I was seriously considering a 1-6, but after glassing stuff at 6x and 10x, the gap seemed like a lot. I hope the offset MRDS will allow me to retain good close-in capability.
Here you see a size comparison with its precision companion piece, a 16" AR10:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/AfghanandAR10_zps2df52bf7.jpg
The AR10 would be the same length as an SPR (much heavier though), but the round is a lot more capable.
It all depends on the mix you can afford, or think is best in terms of what suits you, what you can afford, or which is more technically "correct" in your mind. I can't afford three precision 5.56 rifles (and good optics), and I wanted a 7.62, so this is what I came up with. I think the Afghan is a great compromise concept. We will see!
That's what I ended up going with:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/Afghan1_zps2452d9ef.jpg
That's a SOLID setup. Chris Costa ran the same optic arrangement on the Recce he was using, albeit a x24 model NF.
Eurodriver
07-14-13, 21:31
I'd like a 10" rail and a variable optic but I already shoot it effectively to 565 yards. I just can't justify the extra cost but one day I'll get around to it.
I think a 1-4 or 1-6 would be the best choise for a precision 14.5".
I think using an RDS, even with a magnifier, would be selling it short.
Agreed. Ended up going with a 1-4 with fire dot.
I have a very similar setup going. The 2.5-whatever optic paired with an offset RDS is a VERY strong and versatile option. IMO, much better at both precision and quick up close work than the 1-4 and 1-6 options.
So much so, its my thoughts that the only reason to get a 1-4, 1-6 or even a 1-8 is to make a rule class in a particular competition.
No scope will ever be what a RDS is. So unless you're limited by rules or policy, why not have both?
I have a Afghan barrel. I had intended on buying a suppressor and wanted to keep the overall length as short as possible and added mass close to the center of the rifle. But the reality is that most of the places I shoot are populated by non suppressed shooters, so ear protection would still be required. That gives me pause before spending $1k on a can.
If I had to do it again, I would get a Recon.
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