What would you consider acceptable accuracy in home defense or SHTF situation? [Archive]

gs013564

11-02-10, 23:14

If this is in the wrong forum, then I apologize in advance.

I am new to shooting in general and the AR platform in particular. I have been practicing on bullseye type targets, but I have been wondering what is considered acceptable in a real world scenario when it comes to accuracy. I am using the word accuracy in the sense of how tight I can get my groups around my point of aim (I am not that great of a shot... yet!).

I suppose another way of asking would be the inverse: When does accuracy start to be considered unacceptable for a real world self defense scenario? Obviously, the tighter the groups around my point of aim the better, but realistically what should I be striving for? I may be answering my own question, but I would think it would be at least the average size of a head or torso, depending on what I would actually be aiming for in a real life situation.

Sorry if this sounds extremely ignorant. I just don't have any buddies who I am able to bounce these questions off of.

g5m

11-02-10, 23:24

I think you have two different situations. Home defense is generally considered very close. The other could be close or potentially a lot further.
Anyway, it seems to me that you would want acceptable accuracy for longer shots. That will always translate into adequate close up accuracy.
What do you think is acceptable? An inch group at 100 yard.. min 5 preferably 10 shots. That's benchrest territory.
So, what's acceptable for you?
Ten rounds, I'd think 3"-5"-8" groups would be pretty darned good especially with iron sights.
JMO.

But, if you can, get your carbine tuned up and spend the money to take a carbine class or two from a good school/instructor. Your eyes will be opened a lot about shooting at paper vs. shooting in a simulated situation. Really.

Sensei

11-02-10, 23:25

3-4 MOA with mil-spec factory ammo is the reasonable minimum assuming the shooter and optics are not the limiting factor.

coyote hunter

11-02-10, 23:28

I'll bite

As soon as you get your rifle zeroed from the bench (assuming you have all your fundamentals masterd) stand up, shoot standing.

I can only imagine that there will be no bench rests when you need them.

After you can hit your target well standing, start with different drills.

Baby steps, It wont come overnight. I'm living proof ( and i think most will agree with me on that point)

This is the point where I am, and because I do not know of the subject after this point, I'm going to leave it to the pros on here.

MarshallDodge

11-02-10, 23:30

Most modern firearms perform better than the guy behind the trigger. Purchase a good gun and lots of ammo then take a training class on how to run it. You will soon find out what you need to know to make the combination work.

ehcarl2983

11-02-10, 23:38

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/70820522563
This is a link to a thread titled "The need for Speed" over on LF. While it's geared mainly toward pistols, it definitely applies to rifles as well.

Faster speed and better accuracy is always preferred.

Unfortunately no one can shoot their tightest groups of all time, while getting their fastest splits of their life.

So it depends on the situation, and that's why important to shoot for groups, as well as run drills, and shoot in action type matches so you can develop as an all around shooter.

EDITED TO ADD:
If the price is right take a course.... but I'm a big believer that you can learn a lot from a good book. There's also the MD Dynamics DVD's that are very good. Either of those plus a camera to take video's and you can accomplish a lot.

gs013564

11-02-10, 23:40

I'll bite

As soon as you get your rifle zeroed from the bench (assuming you have all your fundamentals masterd) stand up, shoot standing.

I can only imagine that there will be no bench rests when you need them.

I attempted to zero my rifle at 50 yards this past weekend. I would say I was definately hitting the 8 inch target consistently, but I was definately not getting tight groups consistently within that target. I know it's probably just a matter of practicing the fundamentals in that regard.

I definately like the way the carbine shoots and feels and have quite a bit of ammo for practice for the next couple of months (I travel, so I only get my practice in on the weekends).

I live in KC and have been looking for a basic carbine course that is within driving distance, but I haven't seen anything in the past couple of weeks. When I searched, it seemed like the closest places may be in Ohio on a consistent basis?

I think you have two different situations. Home defense is generally considered very close. The other could be close or potentially a lot further.
Anyway, it seems to me that you would want acceptable accuracy for longer shots. That will always translate into adequate close up accuracy.
What do you think is acceptable? An inch group at 100 yard.. min 5 preferably 10 shots. That's benchrest territory.
So, what's acceptable for you?
Ten rounds, I'd think 3"-5"-8" groups would be pretty darned good especially with iron sights.
JMO.

But, if you can, get your carbine tuned up and spend the money to take a carbine class or two from a good school/instructor. Your eyes will be opened a lot about shooting at paper vs. shooting in a simulated situation. Really.

Good point on the ranges within a home. I am working with irons and just trying to nail the fundamentals.

I am definately looking to take a basic class. Just need to find one that I can make it to. I've been doing a lot of reading on this site so I have a good idea of what is out there. Just needs to be closer! :)

lethal dose

11-02-10, 23:40

gs013564

11-02-10, 23:50

Training is key here, bro. Do a ton of reading on this site. Look up the m4c training groups in your region and make it a point to learn the fundamentals like: target acquisition, sight alignment, holdover, shooting positions, etc. If you need any help, don't be afraid to pm me or any of the other members. Welcome.

Yup, definately have been studying this site like crazy. Like you are advising, I am really working on sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and follow through at the moment. Sounds pretty lame, but from what I can tell, that's the starting point. Thanks for the welcome!

wolf_walker

11-03-10, 00:02

Lot of guys make it look easy, shooting on the move, moving form close in to far out targets quickly, etc. It ain't as I've discovered myself.

Surf

11-03-10, 00:07

First person to get a good combat accurate hit usually wins the fight, or so the studies say. Studies also elude to fights being in the 3-5 yard range and are over in 3 seconds or so. So I would say a defensive rifle in the 2-3 MOA range and a shooter that is capable of combat accurate hits, with a very good amount of speed.

Combat accuracy is upper center mass if presented. So on a full frontal torso you are looking at about 8"-10" circle centered in the upper chest.

Of course things are a bit different when you hauling ass cause your getting shot at and you are trying to return with accurate fire.

Enoc

11-03-10, 00:38

Yup, definately have been studying this site like crazy. Like you are advising, I am really working on sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and follow through at the moment. Sounds pretty lame, but from what I can tell, that's the starting point. Thanks for the welcome!

Welcome to the sight, It doesn't sound lame at all! If you don't understand those things (fundamentals) you cannot be a good shooter. I read articles for almost a year on this forum before I ever signed up. Tons of great material from a lot of very credible people.

To your original post, start doing a ton of dry firing. You will see your accuracy and comfort levels increase dramatically from just dry firing how ever much time you are allowed daily, 20-30 mins each day is about what I do and it is a huge help, not to mention it's free. Practice reloads and malfunctions (with dummy rounds), transition to pistol, anything and everything you can think of. Start with close targets and then move out further as you get more comfortable. Like everything it will take time and patience but you'll get it down. Go put a small piece of colored tape on the wall and focus dry firing (trigger control and sight alignment) at that every night, you won't believe how much more accurate and comfortable you'll be with your guns. "... Perfect execution of the fundamentals under stress" - Kyle Defoor/TigerSwan

variablebinary

11-03-10, 00:39

2MOA or less at 50 yards is the standard for all carbines I own.

500grains

11-03-10, 01:50

what is considered acceptable in a real world scenario when it comes to accuracy. .

Accuracy of the shooter or the gun?

4" at 100 yards for the gun, but under 1.5 inches is much preferred.

Accuracy of the shooter requirement depends on distance, size of target, speed of engagement, etc. While it may appall some here, I would say that you will be fine if you can shoot a 6 inch group at 15 yards with moderate speed. Of course you want to eventually do much, much better, but that gives you an achievable short term goal, and a 6 inch group is plenty small for keeping the rounds in a man's chest.

If a shooting course is not in your immeidate future, you may want to get some videos, such as from Magpul or Viking Tactics.

Low Drag

11-03-10, 06:52

The_Hammer_Man

11-03-10, 07:10

Upper torso hits as fast as you can make them is acceptable accuracy in an actualy shooting.

Does not matter if it's an AR or 9mm, no matter what the range. 3 meters to 300 meters.

Go to a 3 gun or carbine/rifle match in your area for some very good examples of fast / accurate shooting.

For a start on measuring your cqb accuracy, an improving it, get some standard 8" white paper plates and some 4" desert plates.

Take them to the range and place them one above the other on the backer. If you don't have a fence or anything to stick them to/on then take a longish, 24-30"x10" wide piece of cardboard and tape/staple them to it.

This will give you targets approximately the same size as the kill zones on a human being w/o breaking the bank.

for an added bit of challenge.. get some bell and carlson target stickers ,the one inch orange ones, and put them on the back side of your plates. That way when you've finished your string you can check it.

Fun and informative ...

g5m

11-03-10, 08:18

Mentioning the paper plates reminds me of a suggestion made in one of the gun mags many years ago.

Necco wafers-- they make a great target. About an inch in diameter. And you don't really have to clean them up. The little critters will enjoy them for your cleanup.

I believe the author set them in a groove cut in a board so they were upright.
Anyway, just a suggestion.

jonconsiglio

11-03-10, 16:40

I would guess there's hardly a rifle out there that's too inaccurate for home defensive use. I have rifles for everything from 50 and 338 Lapua down to 5.56. A SHTF rifle is not necessarily the same as a home defense rifle. For me, I like an 11.5" for the house, but if all went to hell and I needed a SHTF rifle, I'd want at the least a 3 moa gun. This would most likely be a 14.5".

Getting that out of the way, I care considerably more about how fast I can get 4 or 5 rounds into an 8" group at 3 to 50 yards while moving or between movement. The longest area in my home that I would ever need to take a shot is 26 yards. Outside, my property is about 65 yards wide.

I've been in two situations where a gun has came out and a third where it came very close and my hand going to it was enough. The two where a gun was involved were within 2 to 10 feet, one was in a car resulting in one shot being fired.

I can't think of too many home defense situations that I've heard about or read that you'd be any farther than up close to 15 yards. A public shooting could cover large distances, but most likely the AR will be at home and we'll be left with our handgun.

So, what it took so long for me to say, as long as I can keep between a fist to plate size group at MY possible defensive distances while standing, laying, falling, crouching, pleading, praying, etc., the ability to get multiple, accurate hits on target as fast as I possibly can is the most important thing to me.

Statistically, the average shooting is a few feet with only a few rounds fired. This, of course, is an average, and it's an average for shootings, not gunfights. I would imagine a large number are one or two rounds and a small number of many rounds. Statistics also say, on average, 1 out of 4 of us will be the victim of a violent crime. I've been the "victim" of 3. So remember, stats have nothing to do with you, just us as a whole.

7 RING

11-30-10, 07:06

MOA (Minute of Assailant) should be good enough accuracy. All kidding aside, I think any rifle that will shoot 4 MOA is good enough from social distances out to 250 yards.

AngeredKabar

11-30-10, 07:54

You know those small paper pie plates? In any situation that's how big the area is that you want to try to hit on a perp. I would be impressed if anyone can do that consistently though. Any shot that hits your target works in your favor however. The key is getting your first and subsequent shots off quickly while trying your best to keep the shots on the bad guy.

Above all, learn how to use your weapon, what to do in certain types of situations--people teach this in classes--, and practice and train and drill until you die--try your best to make sure it's from natural causes.

TehLlama

12-02-10, 22:07

If possible, I would really want mechanical accuracy to be under 2MOA.

That said, in an actual defensive shoot, shooting under 10MOA is usually more than adequate to get the job done. If you're shooting within rock-throwing distances, in the midst of an adrenaline dump, trying not to become perforated yourself, you're probably going to miss part of the time, so balancing speed and accuracy becomes more important.

A reliable gun with a shot-out barrel: if the rifle has a good zero, you're still looking at a solid hit out to 150m when the shooter sends the round on target.

Like any hobby, shooters will spend more money on hardware to wring out that tiny bit of gain because having to eat the humble pie to just go our and practice to make huge gains isn't as fun. This applies to me.

7 RING

12-03-10, 03:37

Like any hobby, shooters will spend more money on hardware to wring out that tiny bit of gain because having to eat the humble pie to just go our and practice to make huge gains isn't as fun. This applies to me.

Truer words were never spoken. You can definitely spend alot of time at the reloading bench to acquire sub MOA accuracy. I would rather take a 3MOA rifle to the range and get in alot of trigger time at closer distances, say 25 meters to 200 meters. It's more practical, more fun and requires less ammunition prep.

Jesse Tischauser

12-16-10, 16:19

For home defense I would be more worried about how fast you can get to yoour rifle and then how fast you can put 2 rounds to the chest of a humanoid size target after fetching your rifle.

If you can make a 5-10" two shot group in under a couple seconds you are good to go.

m1a_scoutguy

12-20-10, 13:18

Bunch of good info above,,lots of good stuff !!! But bottom line is get out and shoot !!! Get a boat load of these and get out and shoot from up close,,5/7ft,,out to the longest distance in your House that you would have to or dare shoot !!! Plane & simple,,,,shoot,,shoot,,,,and shoot somemore !!! :D
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=23576/pid=9527/sku/IDPA_Practice_Target?utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_source=googlebase&mc_id=10000&gdftrk=gdfV21820_a_7c187_a_7c745_a_7c644000012_d_644000012_d_654

Also,,get a buddy with a timer or buzzer or something that will put you on the clock,,nothing like being under preassure,,even in training, that buzzer,,bell,,clock will make you make mistakes !!!

SHIVAN

12-20-10, 13:48

Acceptable accuracy for a defense situation is one that leaves me not leaking any body fluids, and the other guy disabled or deceased.

Flatly, I do not care if three shots are 12" apart @ 5yds if the other guy doesn't get any holes in me.

That being said, a lot of the above is also true. Most modern firearms will better a new, or learning, shooter. Shoot for the best accuracy you can, learn the basics from a competent instructor, and then work on speed as you progress.

If you are doing drills at any SD/HD distance to 25yd, and can't keep them in the black, you need to slow down. As you get better the speed will come.

I was recently at the NRA range function testing my AR-10 SBR. I had the target set at 10yds, was shooting offhand, and kept every round in the 8"x3" Shoot&See without trying too hard - or fast. If I had been shooting for time, or against a threat, I should have definitely sped up a lot.

I've heard Ken H. and LAV say more than once that when the shooting starts no one is going to have to tell you to shoot faster, so work on doing the basics 100% right and get 100% hits.

Beat Trash

12-27-10, 12:20

Work on correct form and accuracy. Speed will come through practice.

Keep in mind that in a real incident, be it self defense, home defense, SHTF (All variants of the same concept, protecting yourself), the odds are that other factors can come into play. You may be out of breath from running or stress. The lighting conditions may be low light or no light, requiring some type of flashlight. The weather may suck if you are outside, you may be cold and/or wet. You may be exhausted. You may be shooting while moving. Your target may also be shooting while moving. You may be injured from a fall or a wound.

Get some competent training and practice what you learned through training. You will find that it's a never ending process of training and practice.

If you can hit a 3"x5" from 10 yds, under any and all of the above conditions, you're getting there.

Iraqgunz

01-07-11, 22:21

I wanted to re-visit this a little without starting another thread. Has anyone else thought more about "acceptable accuracy"? I got to thinking in light of the shooting session yesterday with my brother in law. We set up our steel hanger plate (10"x14") and moved out to a position about 400 yards from away.

We were consistently hitting the target with my 11.5" SBR outfitted with an ACOG and M4-2000 suppressor using 55gr. steel case TAP ammo. We didn't look at group sizes, as I consider that irrelevant for the most part.

Does anyone doubt that this would be considered acceptably accurate?

fivefivesix

01-07-11, 23:28

sounds pretty damn good to me.
10x 14 at 400 yards with an sbr. id be proud
Now if i may let me ask some of the more senior members here what would be better for a guy like me. i know my handgun and can double tap and put both rounds in the head without using sites. not bragging just saying been shooting the a pistol for a long time. now with my rifle (m4 type) im still having problems of where the front site post and wings go when looking thru the rear site. im ok but need more practice, my question is what would be better an appleseed shoot or a carbine 1 class. thanks jason

Iraqgunz

01-08-11, 01:12

Are you saying that you don't know what a proper sight picture is?

sounds pretty damn good to me.
10x 14 at 400 yards with an sbr. id be proud
Now if i may let me ask some of the more senior members here what would be better for a guy like me. i know my handgun and can double tap and put both rounds in the head without using sites. not bragging just saying been shooting the a pistol for a long time. now with my rifle (m4 type) im still having problems of where the front site post and wings go when looking thru the rear site. im ok but need more practice, my question is what would be better an appleseed shoot or a carbine 1 class. thanks jason

fivefivesix

01-08-11, 01:18

somewhat yes. some people say the wings go halfway centered in the rear site. i switch too much between the o-2 site and the small peep hole. id like to be taught the proper way to aim with the ar sites so i know wich one to use and when. i use the dd a1.5 and the standard front site

Iraqgunz

01-08-11, 01:23

I almost never use the 0-2 setting. I zero them with the small aperture and call it a day. But, I do not use the "traditional" sights. My SBR uses an ACOG with Troy back ups and my Noveske is outfitted with a Leupold Mark 4 MR/T.

This may help. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/M16_rifle_correct_sight_picture_fig_4-18.png

somewhat yes. some people say the wings go halfway centered in the rear site. i switch too much between the o-2 site and the small peep hole. id like to be taught the proper way to aim with the ar sites so i know wich one to use and when. i use the dd a1.5 and the standard front site