View Full Version : Lightweight carbine
TXLowflyer
11-03-10, 18:01
Hi All
I'm a newbie to M4Carbine and I have to say I'm impressed with all the real world knowledge and the limited amount of arm chair commando crap normally found on the internet today.
My last experience with the M16 platform was in the
US Army in 1994 when I was a Infantry Squad leader carrying a M16A2 with the M203 attached.
After leaving the army I was a police officer assigned to patrol and tactical duties and carried a HK MP5 as my primary long gun.
The past 10 years I have been flying helicopters and have missed the whole M4 era.
I had a chance to shoot a Swat officer's M4 this past weekend. Damn that thing was Heavy. Didn't seem much lighter than the M16 I carried.
Is anyone carrying a Light Weight Carbine and can recommend one to purchase?
The officer had a Rock River anyone have comment on that brand?
Maybe I'm getting Old but I would like a carbine under 7 lbs.
Thanks In Advance!
Blindeye_03
11-03-10, 18:52
After owning a LW barreled ar15, I would recommend against it... I just didnt care for the flip & it felt nothing like my friends govt profiled ar15. I happened to like how his shot, much better.
What have you been flying?
There are a lot of great options for lightweight setups these days. Here are some threads that should prove helpful:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35771
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39599
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46405
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50268
Bravo Company and Daniel Defense are two of the popular choices right now for a lightweight setup. My primary carbine is a Bravo lightweight middy. Just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.
As for Rock River, you may want to read the stickies in the Technical Discussion forum (https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
And be sure to look at the Colt 6920, if you can, before you decide on anything.
H
Is anyone carrying a Light Weight Carbine and can recommend one to purchase?
First, read the links suggested above.
The officer had a Rock River anyone have comment on that brand?
It's an oversimplification but here it is: AR-15s fall into three categories - battle weapon, plinker gun an junk. Given your experience, obviously you will ONLY be interested in battle weapons. Therefore, to cut to the chase, there are only 6 brands to even look at (as the others are plinkers or junk):
Bravo Company Machine
Colt
Daniel Defense
Lewis Machine Tool
Knights Armament
Noveske
Alternatively, you can have a gun custom built which is a battle rifle, if you select the correct armorer.
Please note that there are other rifles out there, like the SCAR, HK416, etc. which this post is not intended to comment on.
Here are some lightweight options to consider. These guns run 5 3/4 pounds to 6 1/4 pounds unloaded and w/o optic.
Colt 6720: $1200 www.colt6720.com
Colt 6520: $900 (a steal)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=198579650
Daniel Defense: $1537 (retail)
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=292
Noveske N4 light: $1450
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lc-moe&cat=152&page=1&search=&since=&status=
BCM: $1025 to $1299 est.
here:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BCOM
or here:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-Carbine-AR15-Bravo-Company-lightweight-s/150.htm
variablebinary
11-03-10, 20:25
Colt 6720 would be my choice for light
https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/gunside%20copy.jpg
Once you choose a lightweight carbine, take a close look at what you put on it.
I think more weight is added on through options than anything else.
Personally, I am going with a fixed iron back up sight and an Aimpoint micro H1, a sling and a light. Period.
If you were an 203 gunner, the recoil and muzzle rise of a lightweight carbine will not bother you at all.
The_Hammer_Man
11-03-10, 22:56
If you were an 203 gunner, the recoil and muzzle rise of a lightweight carbine will not bother you at all.
+1 to being a "tater cannon" shooter. After dancing with one of those a LW middy carbine will be a breeze.
kudo's 500grains.. nice post!
Black Wrench
11-04-10, 02:43
Colt 6720 would be my choice for light
https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/gunside%20copy.jpg
Have to agree 100% here. I'm a huge fan of Colt. Can't comment on any other brand as I don't own any other. (I can honestly say I've never wanted to). You not only get the QC but should you decide to sell it later it will hold its resale value. My vote -COLT ar6720 (Also just my opinion)
Don't hesitate to choose a good quality 14.5" or 16" LW middy option, they're comfortable to hold and very easy/controllable to shoot. I went straight there for my first ARs (both of them!) and would do the same all over again if I needed to. Add a good comp, like the BattleComp and the muzzle stays on target wonderfully. Personally, I would not choose anything heavier for a gun that I might handle or carry very much.
This rifle is 6lbs. 12 oz. not including magazine and is a breeze to shoot. Pick a more minimalist stock and you may shave another 6 oz or so.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/M4%20Rifles/BCMMid-16LW.jpg
Colt 6720 would be my choice for light
https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/gunside%20copy.jpg
Beat me to it. Exactly what I was going to suggest.
Colt 6720 (https://policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_236&products_id=6615&osCsid=0cisbvsq1ehde7a7rlt5h3qg04)
Light, sling, optic.
A lot of guys have ignored this advice lately, and they've managed to research what the hip new products are on the market and gotten a lot of back-slaps from other folks when they post pictures of their new carbines, but I stand by the above. Get the 6720 outfit it simply and go train, train, train.
A lot of guys have ignored this advice lately, and they've managed to research what the hip new products are on the market and gotten a lot of back-slaps from other folks when they post pictures of their new carbines, but I stand by the above. Get the 6720 outfit it simply and go train, train, train.
Rob... it would be difficult for you to be any more direct without naming me outright, which would be fine if you wish to. If feels as though there may be a sore spot around it for some reason? Your comment makes it seem as though you might think I made a mistake of ultimately deciding to go with your alternate recommendation for the BCM 16" LW, rather than the Colt I was initially considering? Or is it that I would recommend this choice to others? Nothing against the Colt or your recommendation of Clyde's by ANY means. Further, it seems as though some folk's appreciation of the pics is also bothersome to you, as well. So you know, I earn my living (and pay for my guns!) by creating images for my clients... I've spent a lifetime creating images for my living, it's what I live and breathe to do. Some people do appreciate the pics. I've been posting quite a few images of 1911s, S&W revolvers, lever rifles, shotguns, and other pistols on other internet forums for a decade or so. And created many images for manufacturers in the firearms industry. This is nothing new for me, though the AR is.
Honestly, I'm very glad I went with the BCM middy that you steered me toward (even if it is a "hip new product"), not because the Colt was any lesser of a choice (which I don't think it is!), just different than what appealed more to me. My thanks go to YOU for steering me to the BCM LW 16" middy. ;) I'd be very happy to have the Colt as well, but the BCM was a more direct route to where I wanted to wind up ultimately. And I am grateful to YOU for making the recommendation to me. So credit for my choice goes only to where it is due - to YOU. I do honestly regret if my choice and posting pics is somehow bothersome to you, which, sadly, it appears that it might.
You're one, but you're far from the only one, and you're not the first and you won't be the last. You might be the latest or most currently visible, but you're far from the only one. and I didn't want to make it about any one person but instead about a concept.
It's nothing personal and it's your money, and as long as you're out there getting training and using the thing it makes no difference to me.
ETA:
I don't think there's anything *wrong* with your gun and it appears to be comprised of all good parts (except for the that god-aweful Hogue abortion! ;) ). I also couldn't care less if you post pictures of it or not. I just happen to think there is value in understanding, firsthand, WHY you're using something vs. the stock part other than "it's popular on the internet right now" and I prefer picture threads or picture-posting when there is an explanation of the journey to the part and the decision behind choosing it, as well as how it compares to a part it may have replaced.
Another forum has, rather than simply a "show off your shit" picture thread, an "explain your carbine" thread. I much prefer that format, and that's why I asked for the "gear loadout pics and DESCRIPTIONS (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39159)" thread here rather than simply a "show your load carriage" thread. Although some people STILL can't resist the urge to simply post a picture even there with no description and no explanation of the rationale.
Hope this helps explain my position a bit, and we can move back to the topic at hand and the general concepts.
ETA2:
I also don't think you "made a mistake" per se, but I think that the OP in this case may have different priorities. I could be wrong. I don't get the impression that he's looking for a Lego hobby like many of us are but is instead looking to get a god quality and capable firearm in his hands without a lot of research and poking around. If I'm wrong then so be it.
I just happen to think there is value in understanding, firsthand, WHY you're using something vs. the stock part other than "it's popular on the internet right now"
If you think I decided on the BCM middy and the parts I selected because "it's popular on the internet right now" you would be mistaken. However things may appear to you, you can not know the time, study, and thought processes that went into my decision. I did everything I could to NOT make a purchase decision based on "popularity" or simply based on someone else saying "buy this, then decide what you really want." If you knew me, you would know that I can and often do fly in the face of popular trends if an alternate course makes more sense to me. And you would know that my purchase decisions are always made with considerable study, thought and deliberation. I'm not an impulse buyer.
And no, one doesn't need to purchase and use any particular product before one can determine that another product or variation is more directly suitable to his preferences. The Colt is a fine firearm and obviously capable of serving anyone very well indeed, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the first and only AR that every AR shooter MUST buy and shoot before knowing where he wants to go with a weapon. The AR has evolved over the years and it shouldn't be necessary for someone to buy, own, and shoot an older design before it is deemed appropriate for them to acquire a more contemporary design. There are aspects of the earlier design that I knew I wanted to change, so my path was to select a model which was close to what I wanted ultimately rather than to buy a design that would need to go through a number of changes to become what I wanted it to be. Just my choice, doesn't necessarily need to be what you or anyone else might choose. It's all good ultimately!
I think you're missing the point. I sent you a PM.
On the broader subject, I disagree completely that you can have any idea what you want or need without jumping in and getting training and using the tool(s). If you have the means to buy the latest trends, and buy two of them, and STILL afford the magazines, sling, light, ammo, and training then by all means jump man! Not many have those means. I would much rather see a shooter get a basic carbine, outfit it simply, stock up on mags and ammo, and go out there and run the piss out of it than sink those same funds into parts & pieces. the point here is that many will find that the basic gun is not lacking in any way. this isn't about Colt, I couldn't care less if someone bought a Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, etc. Hell I'd rather see the OP buy that RRA, stake it, ream it, and get to a class. This is about starting simply, identifying shortcomings, and understanding firsthand why we make the choices we make rather than relying on the input of others.
I speak of all of this from personal first-hand experience. I bought the latest and greatest, all the whiz-bang, got rave replies on TOS picture thread, and hated the goddamn gun on the range. It took YEARS and in fact going to the basic platform of the AK for a year, for me to realize what I had done wrong and appreciate the simpler (and less expensive) path. If I could have that money and time back, and spend it on ammo, mags, and training, I'd be a much better shooter for it today.
I'm not pissing on anyone's parade, or choices, I'm just trying to relay my experiences and mistakes so that others may learn from them.
Rob... you'll get no argument from me on your choices or experience. YOu've got a heck of a lot more AR experience that I do, and that's putting it mildly.
But I still believe that I don't HAVE to start with a completely traditional AR set-up in order to properly enter the world of AR to learn, train, shoot, explore. I have learned enough about features and designs to know that I am not particularly interested in having a stock, traditional AR. Not that I feel there is anything wrong with a stock traditional AR, I just don't feel the NEED to have one before I can become proficient in the world of ARs. Perhaps I am all wrong and months or years from now I will decide that I simply must have a stock, traditional AR before I can proceed past first base, but I don't think so.
But I still believe that I don't HAVE to start with a completely traditional AR set-up in order to properly enter the world of AR to learn, train, shoot, explore.
I'm going to start a new thread on this general topic as I don't want to continue to hijack this one. I'll come back here and post a link to it when I get it posted.
ETA:
new thread here (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=804676#post804676)
I went from stock - simple ARs, to fancy rails, flip up sights, etc., back to simple but with magpul furniture. I sure like to use a simple lightweight with magpul furniture. But there is also a place for the rail and accessories.
Whatever a guy starts with, he is going to switch it around numerous times, get different ARs, etc.
Preface: I don't have any experience shooting at people, and I haven't made it to a class... yet.
I got a AR to get into tactical carbine matches for fun, and eventually take a quality class with it to get some good training. As such, I was advised to get a lightweight build, but I wanted a quality fighting weapon that would hold up to the rigors of an intensive training class.
I went with a BCM LW midlength upper because I read from the experts on this very forum that it was softer shooting than a carbine length, and should last a bit longer. Wanting to stay lightweight (and on budget), I outfitted it with a MOE handguard, stock, and MVG, all of which I really like, and I have recently added a streamlight Super Tac light that I can actuate with my thumb while using the grip. I decided I needed a light because I use the rifle as my home defense weapon, and I recently shot a hog with it while scouting my deer blind, and chasing a wounded boar through heavy brush, at dusk, while holding a flashlight in my hand, wasn't a great setup :laugh:
I've got an EOTech 511 mounted on it that I got an incredible deal on from my Uncle (he really practically gave it away)...the EOTech plus mount aren't really lightweight, but minus the light, the whole rig comes in right at 7-1/2 lbs. unloaded.
The 6720 looks good. At the Clyde website it is described in one place as having a standard barrel and in another place as a light barrel. Looks light to me.
Are the differences between it and the 6920 just the rear sight and the barrel contour? I don't see or read of any other significant changes.
The 6720 looks good. At the Clyde website it is described in one place as having a standard barrel and in another place as a light barrel. Looks light to me.
In some circles a "standard" barrel is the same thing as what is called "lightweight" or "pencil" in others.
Are the differences between it and the 6920 just the rear sight and the barrel contour?
yes
Thanks. Didn't know the light barrel was standard.
Whatever a guy starts with, he is going to switch it around numerous times, get different ARs, etc.
The wonderful nature of ARs!
I recently built a lightweight AR-15 and will not be looking back. The Colt that has been suggested a couple of times would be an amazing first gun. If I was buying it, I'd slap an Aimpoint Micro in a tall Daniel Defense mount on it and a Vickers or Boonie Packer sling and call it done--those options might not work for you, and the only thing you really need would be a sling.
Don't second guess going for a lighter gun--I have found myself doing drills much more now that I have a gun that isn't a back breaker. A couple pounds makes a huge difference!
ForTehNguyen
11-04-10, 15:54
if you want the lightest and can live with a fixed stock the Cav Arms lower is .5lb lighter than a comparable metal lower with carbine buffer and buttstock.
My Cav Arms lower + BCM 16" middy with just irons weighed about 5lbs 12oz, before adding stuff on it.
I also agree on Colt, owning a colt myself they are excellent rifles, can't speak for their carbines though.
All barrel weights listed below are "stripped" weights; that is the barrel and barrel extension only.
Colt 6520/6720, 16" light-weight barrel: 1 pound, 6 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/x7ykufvv3j.jpg
Centurion Arms 16” hammer-forged “light weight” barrel: 1 pound, 10 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/qiroxvm32d.jpg
Noveske 16” N4 "light" barrel: 1 pound, 12 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/hhvmdvg94f.jpg
Colt 6920, 16" M4/governmnet profile barrel: 1 pound, 12 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/qhjpk4qlr3.jpg
Noveske 16" RECON, medium contour barrel: 2 pounds, 1.6 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9amsz7lyft.jpg
Colt 6721, 16" HBAR: 2 pounds, 3.4 ounces.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/3bnl8bdr23.jpg
Exiledviking
11-04-10, 18:14
Nice post, Molon
+1. That is the kind of post I was looking for a couple months ago. If you could add the DD & BCM light weight barrels it would be great.
ForTehNguyen
11-04-10, 18:18
6oz between lightweight and govt, sounds about right with what other people have been experiencing.
TXLowflyer
11-04-10, 22:22
Thanks to all that responded! Lots of great info!
The M4 chart helped allot. Great job Rob
We have a gun show here in Ft.Worth this weekend,hopefully I will be able to put hands on a Colt 6920.
I'm not a Infantry soilder or Swat guy anymore. Just a 40's something guy looking to have some fun, not make building entries or assault an objective .
I have kept my handgun skills and tactics fresh with regular training, because that's the firearm that I carry on a daily basis.
But I am lucky that I live in Texas with a few great instructors in the area.
Thanks Again.
+1. That is the kind of post I was looking for a couple months ago. If you could add the DD & BCM light weight barrels it would be great.
this might help you (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tiAxcuxDRXuahtGz5Q1DJRg&output=html)
Exiledviking
11-05-10, 14:57
Thanks, Rob_S.
The mid-length Daniel Defense barrels are missing and there is no weight listed for the 14.5 middy BCM.
Can't wait to get my new 14.5 middy BCM back from ADCO with the BC 1.5 and shoot it.
The mid-length Daniel Defense barrels are missing
The barrels themselves aren't going to way appreciably more or less just because of where the gas port is.
and there is no weight listed for the 14.5 middy BCM.
Don't have that information yet. I woudl expect the BCM with .625" gas block to weigh in exactly as the DD, and maybe 1-2 oz. more with the .750 gas block.
morbidbattlecry
11-05-10, 18:31
I'm going to throw my money in with a BCM LW 16 middy. I just got mine a few weeks ago and i love it. I wasn't really looking for a light weight rifle when i got it. I wanted to get a more balanced gun. And the LW middy has perfect balance for me. Its one of those guns that just feels right in your hands. And i believe BCM's LW barrels are a bit thicker then a regular pencil barrel so the groups shouldn't open up too much as maybe the Colt LW.
The barrels themselves aren't going to way appreciably more or less just because of where the gas port is.
Don't have that information yet. I woudl expect the BCM with .625" gas block to weigh in exactly as the DD, and maybe 1-2 oz. more with the .750 gas block.
I am going to steal one of your pics Rob.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2013e800.jpg
Kac SR-15. I own one and I am quite happy :)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.